Ep. 346 Curating Climate Conversations with Ayana Elizabeth Johnson

Written By Megan Caballero

This week, we’re joined by marine biologist and author Ayana Elizabeth Johnson to discuss her new book, What If We Get It Right? Visions of Climate Futurism. Ayana shares her approach to curating a wide range of ideas and solutions for climate action, including her climate action Venn diagram. We also explore why profit hasn’t been enough to drive progress and how American culture creates unique obstacles to tackling the climate crisis.

The Stacks Book Club pick for November is Luster by Raven Leilani. We will discuss the book on November 27th with Justine Kay returning as our guest.

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I am thrilled to welcome to the show. Dr Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson. Ayanna is a marine biologist, policy expert and writer known for her work on climate solutions that center equity and community. Her latest book, what if we get it right? Visions on climate futures is an inspiring look at how we can tackle the climate crisis through hope and actionable change. This book is fantastic, and it fundamentally changed what I think could be possible, not only in climate work, but across many fields as we build a more equitable world today, Ayana and I talk about the importance of details to her work, the power of possibility and how folks can get involved in the ways that will be most impactful and meaningful. Don't forget, our book club pick for November is luster by Raven Leilani. We will be discussing that book on Wednesday, November 27 with Justine Kay. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love the stacks and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks. Pack it is just $5 a month, and you get to be part of the best bookish community that has ever existed in the history of the written word. That is a fact google it. In addition to the yearly perks we always have, like our Discord, our monthly virtual book club meetups of bonus episodes, we also have some really exciting seasonal perks we are gearing up for the stackies, which is the stacks pack, official Best Book Award, voted on by the best people in books. We also have my intense reading tracker spreadsheet that is available from the first of December to the 31st of January. And we have the mega challenge, which will also be rolling out in December. So now is the time to get to the stacks. Pack and get your exclusive perks. Head to patreon.com/the stacks and join now there's another way you can support the show. Stay plugged into what I'm up to, what I'm into, what I'm reading, what I'm watching, my hot takes, my enemies. That's by subscribing to my newsletter unstacked by going to Traci thomas.substack.com, okay, now it's time for my conversation with Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson.

All right, everybody, I am just beyond thrilled to welcome today's guest. I read her newest book called What if we get it right, visions of climate futures. And was immediately smitten. I just fell in love with this book. I fell in love with the idea I've been raving about it. So to get to bring Dr Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson on the podcast today is my great honor. Welcome to the stacks.

Ayana Elizabeth Johnson 2:58

Hello. Thank you for having me. What an intro. Well,

Traci Thomas 3:01

I just, I'm upset. I've been telling people. I'm like, Oh well, I'm unfortunately obsessed with her, and this is just my new personality. You've like, I'm I am such an indoor person. Like, I really do not feel like the nature thing. It's just not my brain outside, I know, but I don't even like to I like to be inside, but I'm telling you now I'm like, oh, sorry, I'm a nature girly. Sorry that my only personality is the outdoors and saving the environment. Like, really busy

Ayana Elizabeth Johnson 3:29

hugging trees. Like, yes, I have coffee with you. It

Traci Thomas 3:31

changed my whole chemistry I feel. But before we even get to that, can you just in 30 seconds or so, which I know is impossible, can you kind of tell folks what? What if we get it right? Is about

Speaker 1 3:41

Sure. Um, the subtitle kind of says. It all visions of climate futures. It's it's largely conversations, 20 transcribed interviews, with people who have helped me see the way forward. It's all about solutions and possibilities and the many answers to that big what if we get it right question? So I talked to our buddy Franklin Leonard about what it would look like to get it right in Hollywood. I talked to farmers and architects and museum curators and policy makers and community organizers, all these different people who are actually in the process of getting it right right now. Who can, like, you know, who are doing that bush walking for us, I guess, to show us the way to make the path?

Traci Thomas 4:31

Yes, and I should tell folks, because I read some of the book off the page, but I mostly listened because the audio book has all of the interviews with the people. And I was saying it's like, sort of like, you get 20 mini podcasts. Totally

Speaker 1 4:45

the Penguin Random House audio team. Was like, I'm sorry, what's your plan? I was like, here's all the audio I have recorded in the last year. Please make this into a book. But

Traci Thomas 4:56

it's so great because I really did feel like I was in. Inside these conversations with you. And I was like, as I'm listening, I'm thinking, like, Okay, how could I be a part of that? Like, how does that How is that exciting to me? How is that confusing to me? What is community, solar, Google search? Like I was, I really felt like, interactive with it, because I felt like I was in this conversation, which I love. So for audiobook, people, this gets my, like, super duper, gold star of audiobook approval.

Speaker 1 5:24

Thank you. I also, like, obsessively micromanaged well as many things as I was allowed near. I'm Art Director for the book, and I also, like, approved all of the interstitial music for the audiobook. Oh

Traci Thomas 5:39

my gosh. I love is this, is this who you are? Yeah, Are you always this? I

Speaker 1 5:45

have, actually, this is, in a way, this is one manifestation of my desire to, like, do a project that has all these angles and like, really get to make it like, what is the full manifestation of a book about climate solutions that brings the energy of like a girl who grew up in 80s and 90s Brooklyn? What is the book that only I could create? But it's, of course, not just a book. It's an audio book. There's art in it, there's poetry in it. There's the anti Apocalypse mixtape inside the back cover, right? There's a website, there's a reading guide, there's there's a whole like voter engagement piece around getting people to vote in line with what makes sense for our planet. And as you ask me, like, is that just my vibe? I mean, the short answer is yes, but the bigger answer actually reminds me of in this small town in the south of France. Bear with me. Matisse designed a chapel when he was sick, the nurse who took care of him was a nun, and after he got better, he was like, How can I help you? And she's like, well, the sisters are looking for a new place for us to worship. And he was like, I'm on it. And he not only designed the architectural plans for the building, he designed the stained glass. He designed the robes for the priests, which are like fully Technicolor dream code, like collages, it's amazing. He designed the candle holders. He designed the pews. He painted the murals the Stations of the Cross inside the chapel like and so I was at a very fragile state in my emotional life when I was there, feeling like very delicate and so I was looking in the museum attached to it, at these little dioramas of these different versions of it that he'd had in his head. And I was looking at the robes, and I was looking at the furniture and the light that came in through like the stained glass windows that turned the light in the confessional pink. And I'm not Catholic at all. And I was crying looking at these dioramas like I don't, I didn't think that was a thing. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 8:03

yeah, yeah. The

Speaker 1 8:05

idea that you could have the luxury, and in modern life, right, it would be such a luxury to have seven years of your life to spend on nothing but making the perfect version right of this thing for people that you really care about. And this book has been the closest I've been able to come to, not I micromanaging as, like, the negative way to put it, but like, really, sort of like curating and directing all these different aspects of the project, which are all important to making sure it lands with the reader or listener in as close to the way, as I hope it would, as it can. How

Traci Thomas 8:43

were you thinking about audience? How were you thinking about who you are making this for? Because part of curation is not just what you want to put out, but making sure that it's the right thing for the people you envision to be receiving

Speaker 1 8:54

it. Yeah, I know that piece of advice, like write for one specific person, and then, of course, anyone can read it. And as I was thinking about like, who was the reader, I had in mind, it was a specific person. It's that person doesn't make sense now, so I won't name them, okay, they they're like, public persona has shifted dramatically in the four years since I started this project. But like, what would it look like for like, someone who's deeply in love with culture, especially black culture, a young black woman who lives in a city, who cares about justice, who cares about the environment, but like, it's not her thing, but like, wants to do right by the Planet, cares about the future of life on Earth. Like, would love to have thriving Ecosystems and Biodiversity, but like, she just, like, I don't know. Are

Traci Thomas 9:48

you talking about me? Are you saying this? A book was written for me. Well, apparently it was like, I literally all of these things you're saying are me? Yeah, I must have been that figure. But

Speaker 1 9:58

there you go. We. Hadn't met yet. Now it would be you. And I was writing for someone I know how old you are. I'm 44 so I was writing for someone in there, like, like, a decade or so younger than me. Well, I'm 38 so close. Okay, close. So, like, who's coming up professionally and trying to find, like, figure out how the dots connect, how they want to use their power and influence as it's growing, because there aren't books for us on the environment in this way. There are like, memoirs of environmental and climate justice leaders who are people of color who paved the way in these beautiful ways. But there's not like a welcome, we need you. Like, here's the landscape and here's some hints at where we could go from here. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 10:47

okay, you're definitely talking to me. This makes sense why this book resonated so much with me. Because I feel like, literally, I mean my climate book, yeah. Like, this is just like, hey, Traci, I wrote this for you. And thank you, Ayanna, so much, I actually came to your work a few years ago because of your piece in black futures. That was, I read that book. I'm such a fan of Jay Wertham and Kimberly and I flagged a few different that was an inspiration for me. Sure that book is, yeah, I mean, another book that just like, blew my socks off. But I flagged a few people who had written in that book as, like, people I would love to have on the show one day. And it was you and Donovan X Ramsey, who's also been on the show, because his piece in there. I was like, I don't know what this person's writing next, but this is it. So it's sort of fun to think about, like, how these things, like, come into our lives, right? Like, it wasn't like, I was like, Oh, I'm gonna go out and find a climate book. It was like, oh, this person wrote this other book, and I really liked that thing they wrote. And like, I want to check it out, but I want to talk for a second about, I think, like, the sort of call to action in the book, which is this Venn diagram of like, what can we do?

Speaker 1 12:03

Can I say something about that? Yes, yes, of course. So that was the kind of invitation that I got to contribute to black futures. I mean, that was a book created in the heart of COVID. All the writing deadlines were during then I had, you know, a million other things going on, right? I was launching a podcast of my own. I was working on my first anthology. I was a surrogate for Elizabeth Warren's campaign. I was doing, like, all of it at once, from my bedroom at my mom's farm, being like, interrupted by roosters in the background, very hard to get clean audio on a farm. And writing that piece called what I know about the ocean I mean, the point was about ocean justice. And that was actually the first book I wanted to write. I wanted to write a book. I pitched this to my editor, who was my editor, then Chris Jackson from one world, and I was like, I want to connect the dots between ocean conservation and social justice. I've worked in the Caribbean for almost a decade. I have all these stories to tell. I want to, like, bring people along on this journey of what it would look like to get it right on oceans for coastal communities. And he was like, great, but like, I don't think anyone wants to read ocean justice the book. I was like, I I see that this is not like a mass market appeal kind of thing. This is like a University Press maybe, yeah, it was sort of academic. The way writing it, I was a little bit textbooky, so I didn't write that book. And that book became that book concept became that article in black futures got it. And my, my position, unpopular though it may be, is that most books could actually be articles. Yes,

Traci Thomas 14:02

that is a very popular opinion around this podcast, all right,

Speaker 1 14:07

and so that was my chance to, yeah, to sort of tell that there weren't a lot of anecdotes in there, but it was sort of a lot of my lessons learned there.

Traci Thomas 14:18

I love that. I want to talk. We're going to come, come back to the ocean, because I want to talk a little bit. I know that's, I know that's your your place, and I have some questions about the ocean, but I want to start sort of with this Venn diagram, and, you know, sort of like this invitation to folks, and it's got three pieces. One is when people are looking to sort of get involved in in their place, in fighting climate change. Find something that you love, find something you're good at, and find something that is needed and insert yourself in that Venn diagram, whatever that looks like for you. And I thought a lot about that, obviously, as I was reading the book and thinking about the different spheres of influence that I have, like, you know, my kids and I. We started growing our own food in our backyard, just like, five things, because we live in LA and, you know, I was like, Oh, I didn't really think of that as, like, being climate just to see, but, like, and it's also not something I'm good at, but I'm really into it. But I'm like, that's really small, right? Like, we're, my hope is to have enough lettuce to make a salad for Thanksgiving, right? Like, it's, like, a very small picture, but I was also thinking about, like, what can I do that's bigger? And I started to feel sort of like stuck, a little bit of like, well, I don't know what fits. I don't know what fits for me. And I think my guess is that other people who read this book probably feel like they don't know what is even possible. So I'm wondering if you can share some things that you've heard that people are doing regular people who aren't necessarily climate people who aren't necessarily people who feel like they can really change the world, or know enough about what's going on, like some of those ideas that you've heard or that you think of,

Speaker 1 15:54

yeah. I mean, I think actually, the of those three circles, the what are you good at? One seems to be the hardest for people. We're very harsh critics of ourselves often and so mean the prompt there is like your skills, your resources, your networks, like really thinking broadly about what you can bring to the table. Because when people think about climate stuff, they're usually thinking about solar panels and electric cars and, like, policy, right? So they're like, I'm not an engineer. I don't have a bunch of money, and I don't write the laws. So how could I possibly help? Right? When, in reality, as you just said, like we do all have these spheres of influence. So some of my favorite anecdotes that I've heard are parents who, like, join the PTA, set up a garden at their kids school. Do a green roof, or solar panels on the roof. Advocate for electric school busses in their district, which is a transition that's slowly happening, which also is, of course, great for your kids health if they're not breathing in exhaust from school busses. So that's one that I really like. There's also, I mean, I tend to hear the more dramatic stories about how people have implemented this, and so I feel compelled to say, like this just absolutely does not mean quit your job. It does not mean go start a nonprofit, right? Often like, where we're most influential is within our current roles, right? So can you ask a climate question to every guest? Does that intersect with their work? Are they connecting those dots in their professional or personal lives? Because I feel like I was actually a little bit concerned that the book might have this effect on people that's like, Great, all these interviews with amazing people who are doing big stuff are interesting, but like, I'm not like them. I don't have those particular skills, right? I'm not the head of Earth justice or a Hollywood executive or a climate reporter or a farmer. And so I was worried it would be a little bit too grand in some way unapproachable, but I've heard on this book tour lots of amazing stories. One, um was this young person who used to listen to my old podcast, how to save a planet where I first talked about this Venn diagram. And they said, um, they were listening to it and like, oh, well, I can do more. I want to do more. What would that look like? And ended up working at the Environmental Protection Agency. They're a great like project manager. We need project managers to make this clean energy transition, let me tell you. And what they did was figure out how to help disadvantaged communities access federal funds for clean energy and climate adaptation. Super practical, absolutely critical, navigating the federal funding and grant process and matching funds and like what is available to who On what grounds and with what paperwork is a pain in the butt, but we need it. And now they're doing that same thing for indigenous tribes in the Midwest, helping tribes access federal funds for climate adaptation. And so I think we need to, like, when we when I say, like, what skills can you bring to the table? It can truly be like, I'm a great project manager, I'm a designer. I build good websites. I'm a great event planner, like all of that stuff, we actually need to it's not just technical and political by a long shot. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 19:30

And I think one of the things you get to towards the end of the book is like, join up, join in. You don't have to start a thing. You can just go to probably, shouldn't. Probably shouldn't. And I think people like, I think, you know, when I think back to like, summer 2020 and the Black Lives Matter movement and people wanting to get involved, and there was this push like, Well, I'm gonna start like, white moms doing shit. And it was like, well, actually, there's all these other moms already doing shit. Like, maybe just call those moms and see what's up. And I think. People are starting to finally understand that, like, there are people in place already who could use your help and your resources and your skills join. And I just love that you said that, like, so explicitly in the book, because I do find that people are like, Oh, okay, great, I'm gonna, like, start a nonprofit about gardening. And it's like, guess what? It exists. Like people probably down the street from you are doing it already. Yeah,

Speaker 1 20:24

I feel like this. So this book isn't, in one way, like an example of collective wisdom that we need for this moment, but the theme that came through this book, which I wasn't expecting, because I interviewed so many different types of people, was community, that we really are all in this together. And it really is when we think about your neighbors down the street like you just said, like, those are the first responders in an emergency. Yeah, right, when we're dealing with these floods and fires, etc, we actually need each other in these, like, very fundamental ways, and so figuring out, like, what your neighborhood association is going to do? Are you going to advocate for municipal composting together, for better bike lanes, for more money, for public transit, for those electric school busses, for kids, etc? I there's a way to think about it that's like, what are you doing in your personal life, right at home, with your own decisions, how your family spends your money and time, etc, how you can be influential on pushing Climate Solutions forward in your professional life and then also in your civic life. Like we think it's it's so much more than voting y'all like, it's a big array of ways that we can be involved in improving our communities and interacting with our elected representatives to get them doing the right stuff faster. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 21:46

one of the things that comes up in the book is that it's pretty early on. I can't remember exactly who said it, but people are less willing to take risks in climate change spaces like, there's sort of this like, maybe this fear of like, maybe the stakes are too high to take of the wrong risk or something. Do you Do you understand why that is? Does it make sense to you? Do you feel like, like, that approach that is is wrong? Do you think being more conservative with climate is the right, the right move, or, do you think it's not?

Speaker 1 22:23

I mean, it depends what we're talking about when it comes to, like, geo engineering, like, should we block the sun to cool the planet? Like, we should be careful with that nonsense. Yes, but there's other stuff where we should just try it. And this, the stakes aren't really that high. Like, if you, you know, join the PTA and try to do some stuff in your kid's school, it doesn't work. You just try again next year, right, right? But, I mean, I think there's this very human fear of failure and like hesitancy to try new things, and that's why the join something. Piece of this is so important because I mean the cliche of power in numbers, yes, but like, it's also that complimentary areas of expertise, approaches, personalities. You need your strategist. You need your like hype person. You need all of these different you need your spreadsheet? Guru, yes,

Traci Thomas 23:22

yes. I'm the one with a spreadsheet. I love a spreadsheet. How did you decide? Okay, wait, this is a very human question from me. I'm ready. Do you understand all of the stuff, like, when you're talking to the banking person and they're explaining the banking as you're interviewing them. Are you? Do you feel like you understand what they're talking about? Because so much of this felt like over my head, in a way, like I'm like, I don't even know what a bond is like. I mean, I do, but there were so many, because you're interviewing so many different kinds of people. Like, how were you sort of synthesizing? Does this make sense for me? Is this new information to me? Like, was I already thinking that? Like, because I know what it's like to interview and there's so much information, and you're trying to make sense of it for your audience and yourself, and to like, connect the dots so that you can then turn this book into a thing. So how much of the information is new to was new to you as you were making this certainly some

Speaker 1 24:23

I mean, it's important to say, perhaps for context, that I knew all these people, right? Of course, personally, knew everybody a bunch of years, yeah, before interviewing for the book, a lot in a lot of situations, I had collaborated with them before, so I had some familiarity with their work, apart from just reading about it, right? That said, yeah, there's a lot of technical stuff that actually got cut from the book. Because I was like, Okay, this is, like, the deep cut on the types of hydrogen for right energy. Like, no one needs to know about all this. And the interviews were also, you know, an hour or a. To two hours long, and then they got cut down to like, 15 pages, right? So we're talking about, like, at least a 50% cut. So a lot, a lot of the jargon and details got cut. I also asked that a lot of clarifying questions in the interviews. These are highly edited on the page. Of course, the audio is the audio, so it's edited. It's doesn't match one to one, the written book I wanted. I didn't want to cut out the complexity of each experts field. I wanted to make them explain themselves as well as possible. And then also know that every single conversation is not for every single reader, yeah? And that's okay, like, if you do not want to talk about, like, investing in clean energy, yeah, startups, like, you could skim that chapter and like, that is totally fine with me. But for some people, they'd be like, ooh, I'd never thought about it this way, yeah, yeah. And so my hope is that you can everyone can get something out of every chapter, but also not every chapter is going to be equally as enticing and applicable to everyone, and that's sort of okay, just to give us all, like a little bit of a smorgasbord of yeah, what's out there?

Traci Thomas 26:21

Yeah. And how did you decide? I mean, I'm sure you know a lot more people doing this work than the 20 people, or, I guess, 20 plus, because some of them are two people in the interview, yeah, doing like, how did you decide which people you wanted to include or which, I guess, more. Also, like, which fields, which, which banking or, like the seeds was one of my favorite. Oh, my God, the seeds. Leah

Speaker 1 26:45

Penniman, I mean, she's a dream. She speaks like a poet. It's phenomenal. Yeah. I mean, how food sovereignty can be part of all of this is super interesting. And the you know, her work in the black diaspora. How did I decide there was a spreadsheet? We love it, of like, different topics. I wanted to cover different people who could fit the bill for different topics. Part of it was like, Are they good at explaining this stuff? Can they welcome people into this in a way? Do they want to explain themselves, or are they just not that kind of person, which is fine, they're just like, I'm doing the work. Someone else can explain it. I wanted it to be people who were approaching this in a more interesting, maybe even a little surprising, way. And I also didn't want to cover stuff that's been really covered a lot. So I didn't actually interview anyone who works on transportation. I feel like we talk about that a lot. I didn't interview someone who works specifically on the clean energy itself, like I didn't talk to a solar or wind power engineer or installer, so I kind of cut some stuff that way. But there is other conversations I wish I could have added to the book. I What would you have added? I would and I started a podcast, a newsletter. What if we get it right? Same title, to keep having these conversations because of this. One was on politics. There's a lot on policy here, but there's not really a lot of politics in the book, in particular, like voting and the importance of like, the role of citizens in pushing for climate solutions. So, yeah, that was the first conversation that I recorded on my book tour. Was with the founders of environmental voter project and lead locally that supports down ballot climate candidates. I also really wanted to include a conversation on fashion, which has a significant carbon footprint. Fast fashion has totally bonkers for many reasons, but one of which is it has a terrible environmental impact on water quality, on greenhouse gas emissions, not to mention workers rights and consumer culture. But there's also, of course, ways to do fashion better. So I wanted to talk to some people who are showing us what that looks like to get it right. Those were the two big ones that I wished I had been able to sneak in before my editor was like, you're done, and it's also very long stop.

Traci Thomas 29:36

Okay, we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back. You. Okay, we are back, and I want to talk a little bit about money Ching. Ching, one of the things that comes up throughout the book, many times it comes up in the Hollywood section with Franklin Leonard. It comes up in the sort of like new technologies stuff. It comes. Up in the investor section is that a lot of this climate justice work, activism work, can and would be profitable, that there is money in it to be made by people. And you know, we live in a capitalistic society. And what I found really interesting is that Mike or the question that comes to me is like, then, why aren't we doing it? If it's good for the environment and somebody could become a billionaire off of it, what's the hold up?

Speaker 1 30:35

Well, I mean, people don't like trying new things. Is one. The other is like, I think a lot of these markets are, are new. They're not investable. In the same way, a lot of the companies doing interesting stuff and growing clean energy solutions, for example, are they're not on the stock market. They're startups, right? So you have to, it's for a different kind of investor. In some ways, there's more risk involved, right? And you need just a different level of technical understanding for those smaller companies. Of course, just like in any sector, it does honestly shock me, for some reason that the big banks are still investing so so much in fossil fuel companies, and not just like doing their banking like everyone needs a bank account, like actually helping them expand infrastructure to increase extraction and drilling of fossil fuels. One of the things that really surprised me in researching this book was the stat that since 2015 which is when the UN climate agreement, the Paris Agreement, was signed, that we should, all, you know, reduce our greenhouse gas emissions. Since then, the four big banks in America, JP, Morgan, Chase, Citibank, Wells, Fargo Bank of America, have provided one and a half trillion dollars to fossil fuel companies, and they're, you know, not as profitable as they used to be. They got a lot of competition. There are other ways for these banks to make money. They represent a small part of their overall portfolio, and so it actually wouldn't be that big a deal for the banks to divest from fossil fuels. If I were the head of JP Morgan Chase, or if I were Jamie Dimon, I would be like, this is actually a no brainer. It's great PR, and I'm not really losing any money. I could just move that part of my portfolio investments to something else. So that's been really troubling that we don't have that kind of leadership. But of course, that requires public pressure. So the conversation in this book with Bill McKibben about the fossil fuel divestment movement, which has, you know, they're now like 1600 institutions have divested over $40 trillion which sounds like a lot, but there's so much money in the world, there's a lot more to be done. But I think just to bring this down to like, what we can do as individuals, one of the things that I find really promising is that when it comes to our household decisions, it can feel like they're really small, like the lettuce you are growing for your Thanksgiving dinner is not going to save the planet. It could be very delicious. I hope it's at least delicious sweetest family activity with your kiddos. Yeah. But the thing that we can do as households that makes the biggest difference actually, is making sure we are not investing in fossil fuel corporations that we are not supporting the further build out in the wrong direction, away from the clean energy future that we need. There's this analysis that's like, if you have $50,000 saved for your retirement, and that money is not in a clean fund, a fossil free fund, then your money is doing more harm than any amount of good that you could be doing, riding your bike, composting my lettuce, planting your lettuce, etc, because that money is being lent back out right in some portion of it to fossil fuel companies. And that was actually a real eye opener for me, because as much as people are like, I don't know where to start, I'm like, this will take you one day of research and paperwork, and then you're done. And I remember feeling so relieved when I did that to literally not be investing in the problem anymore. So there's two websites that I would recommend people check out. One is bank for good.org, and the other is green portfolio.com, so you can. They have, like, a list of all sorts of different options that for, yeah, for better places to keep your money, and

Traci Thomas 35:06

we'll link to that and everything else in the show notes. So first and find it super easily. Okay, you know, we talked about hope at the end of the book. You talk about hope as, like, this thing that's, like, it's great. If you have it, that's great, but, like, you don't need it. You don't need it. You don't have to be hopeful. You don't have optional hope and joy separate them. In your mind, you can experience joy without being hopeful. You can experience hope without being joyful. I guess I have one sort of downer question. I mean, I have more than one, but this is the one I'm most interested in, am I? Am I wrong to be worried that the thing that needs to be changed, about the approach to the climate or the things that need to be changed feels so fundamental to American identity, like white supremacy, individualism, capitalism, obsession with ownership, that even though we have all the tools, which so many of your people even say, barbecues and big trucks, yes, just like all of these things, it just feels like I'm reading it, and I'm like, Yes, I can do that. I would. I would be a part of this. Like, I'm down with this. We have the tools. I don't even know what the tools are, but we have them. Like, but also it's gonna take divesting from this idea that being individual is the greatest thing in the world. And, like, that's what freaks me out.

Speaker 1 36:37

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think is being individual the greatest thing

Traci Thomas 36:42

in the world? No, no, I don't think so. But I feel like that's American culture. I

Speaker 1 36:46

know. I mean, I think I say it that way, because I feel like once we start to name these barriers, we're like, right? Okay, maybe that is a little bit ridiculous, you know, and that, that's my hope. Anyway, I was actually surprised how many people mentioned private property as a problem. The way that we have ownership in America. Certainly, our consumer culture is problematic, and I worry, actually, I think you may be getting at this as as well, this psychology of it, our identities are wrapped up in a certain way of doing things. One of the things that really blew my mind was a study a bunch of years ago now that men didn't want to carry reusable bags because it was too feminine. And I was like, Oh, we are

Traci Thomas 37:45

screwed. Men are not okay.

Speaker 1 37:48

Like, if a reusable bag is threatening your manhood, A, that's on you and B, how are we ever going to get anywhere, right? Yeah, and it's the same thing with the cars we choose. It's the same thing with our diets. So there really has to be underlying all of this, a cultural shift. And so for people who are listening, who have any sort of cultural influence, who are helping to shape what is the status quo, what is aspirational, we need to change what that looks like. It is not, you know, an enormous closet with more outfits than any one person could ever wear. It is not a truck that gets nine miles to the gallon, right, right? There are other ways to live that are just as delightful and fulfilling, if not more. And I feel like my concern is that we are so fragile and many of us unhealthy, emotionally psychologically, that we're attempting to fill those gaps of being needed or wanted or feeling safe and secure with these lifestyle choices that make no sense, like the videos that I see on Tiktok of people with their disposable everything, yeah, and the refilling videos and the like 50 Stanley Cups in different colors. I'm like, Do you guys remember that we invented reusable cups so we could just have one and keep reusable have

Traci Thomas 39:22

one? Keep reusable, have one reusable cup. Yeah, yeah. So

Speaker 1 39:26

I do very much worry that the cultural barrier is the big one, and that's why I've designed the book to try to reach people in a cultural context. Why I've designed the book tour to be a series of cultural moments, you know, with some some celebrities, with different people in every city, really trying to, like, meet the moment and the vibe that we need. And say, like you. Yes, this is serious. Like, we can take climate change seriously, but we should not be taking ourselves seriously. Like, let that shit go.

Traci Thomas 40:07

Yeah, yeah. What's so fun, funny to me is, like, I think what is easy for me to think of for myself is, like, these little, small things that I do in the household, because I feel like, that's what we've been told matters, right? It's like you have to recycle. And when I read the book, you know, I turned to my husband and I was like, Why have I never thought of reduce and reuse? There you go. And I have, in some ways, right? Like I carry my one reusable water bottle, not made of plastic, though it has a little plastic on the top. But, you know, I It needs a top. It needs a lid. The single use thing, that's the single use. Yes, exactly. But like, I feel like I get so stuck in the What can I do as like, the head of my household? And I think that, I think that it's easy to forget, and maybe it's by design that we're not thinking of these solutions like bigger or some of us, me, not you, obviously you are. But like, as part of a bigger community, or like a bigger sphere of influence, that's just really helpful to hear you say some of that, it

Speaker 1 41:17

is so American, right? Yeah, to get caught up in what's happening in your personal life and in your home, and that becomes so all consuming. Yeah, we don't have the time or energy to be a larger part of the societal changes that are needed if you do a slightly less good job at recycling, but that means you are out in your community advocating for better building codes, for example, something extremely dorky, but necessary. Yeah, that's great. I don't care, you know, I feel like there's a limited amount of energy we each have, and if we're all obsessing over the small stuff at home. We're not going to get there. I mean, do that stuff, but as you sort of were getting at, I think this is a major failing of the environmental movement, that it's pushed us towards this, not only individual but generic list of things that we should do, we should vote, we should protest, we should donate, we should spread the word, we should lower our carbon footprint. But it's all, none of that is like, join with your neighbors and like, figure out your role in the broader systems changes that we need to see. I get very worried about that, especially given that California just sued Exxon because recycling is basically a lie. Yeah? Like those three arrows with the number on the bottom of your plastic containers, those don't actually mean it's recyclable. That is just a number signifying what type of plastic it is, which is the most infuriating green washing example I could think of. And now they're getting sued for, like, lying to all of us. We could just keep buying all this stuff and just put it in the bin, and it would be fine. Like, best case scenario, you can recycle a piece of plastic, like, twice before it degrades beyond usability, whereas, like, aluminum cans, paper, like, those are the things we should be using and recycling. So I feel like we don't even have a basic knowledge of, yeah, that kind of stuff, because fossil fuel companies are the ones making plastics. Like, plastic is made from fossil fuels, and as we switch to clean energy and EVs, they're just building more plastic factories, right, right?

Traci Thomas 43:35

I mean, this is like, this is why people myself feel so like, it's so frustrating. It's just feels like frustrating. It's like, I'm like, buying these, like, reusable bags for my kids lunches. And Exxon is like, fuck you. We've been lying for 20 years. And it's like, but what about my little reusable bag?

Ayana Elizabeth Johnson 43:54

Yeah,

Traci Thomas 43:55

so like, the scope just feels automatic. It's like, it's like, when you think about a regular, like, working class person who makes, like, however much money a year, and then you think of Elon Musk, you're just, like, these two things, how are these on the same spectrum, right? Like, they have seeds, and you have billions of dollars of fucking over the planet, like, and we're supposed to be working together on this. Like, yeah, just it's so it's so hard to

Speaker 1 44:24

like things that I that motivate me to keep going, yeah, really the community level stuff, yeah? Like, there's so much good that is happening. I mean, it was absolutely horrifying to see the hurricanes come through the South, right? Just a few weeks ago, and it was so heartwarming to see how neighbors stepped up and helped each other. And I feel like in this moment where climate change is causing these types of extreme weather that are we're not used to. Do in these places, right? You're not supposed to have hurricanes that far inland. No. Like, what does that mean for how we need to show up and take care of each other and plan for the future? And I don't know. I feel like this. There's a very fundamental piece of getting it right on climate change, that's just like, what does it mean to be a good human, yeah, what does it mean to be a good neighbor? What does it mean to do your part? What does it mean to not take more than your share? What does it mean to share? Yeah, one of the things that I like dream about is each community having its own repair shop. I feel like we throw away so many things. We're like, I don't know to fix this. I don't know there's like, not an easy place to get replacement parts. Forget it. Like, take your toaster down to the community repair shop, your blender, your roller skates, whatever. And like, get a new gasket or washer or like, whatever you need, right? Have someone fix that little motor. And the same with one another thing I love is, like tool sharing, like it was ever every neighborhood had a spreadsheet that's like, here's all the stuff in my garage. We actually don't all need our own versions of all of these tools. Yeah, no one's using them, 24/7, like losing them. Can I borrow your Sledgehammer for an hour instead of buying one? Yes, of course. You know, that's

Traci Thomas 46:28

such a great idea. I mean, that's, that's something that someone could do, and they're totally doable. Like, knock on the door and be like, I'm putting together this spreadsheet. Here's the Google link. Like, come through your tools, if you're a spreadsheet or person, I want to ask you a little bit about your process. First and foremost, how do you like to write, how many hours a day, how often music or No, haphazard snacks and beverages? Tell me about it. Now

Speaker 1 46:57

we're really getting into it. Yeah, I learned about myself probably a decade ago that I have to just write when inspiration strikes, which is very frustrating, because it's super inconvenient. I'm like, and apparently it's now I gotta go by Yeah, and drop everything and just write it down, because I the thoughts just come and go out of my head. And it's also those, not just inspiration strikes, but when motivation strikes, you know, and as a person who doesn't have her own children, who, like, has a lot of flexibility, I don't have a nine to five job, I can take advantage of that much more so than other people, which is very lucky, and also, sort of by design. So always beverages, usually like a tea and a water. What kind of tea I don't have a whole tea drawer, it really depends. Okay, dandelion root tea was very high, almost for a while. There something a little bit like savory and intense music. I need complete silence when I'm editing. I can write with a little music, but I can't edit with I need just absolutely to be like in zero stimulation, just and I edit by hand. So you print out pages. Print it out. Yeah, I have to see the words on the page in relation to each other, and I it's sort of insane, like so yes, I did all these interviews, but I also wrote a bunch of essays of my own in the book. I probably edited each chapter five to 10 times by hand, wow. And then transcribed those edits and to the listeners who are like, you're wasting trees. Like, I also printed 10s of 1000s of copies of this book, so, yeah,

Traci Thomas 48:53

some point we got it. Paper is recyclable.

Speaker 1 48:56

I didn't even recycle it. I kept it all for my archive, which is not something that I'm, like, really obsessed with, but I was actually going back to look at previous drafts in hard copy as I was writing. But for the interviews, I physically cut and pasted pieces together because I have, like, 40 pages got to become like 14. What does that look like, what are the different chunks that I need? How do they, like, physically fit together as I move them around, like, spread them all out on my living room floor and, like, remix.

Traci Thomas 49:30

Have you ever posted those? Any of those on social media? There's some

Speaker 1 49:33

photos of okay, I want to see that, so I'll share those with you. But yeah, I mean, I am an obsessive editor. Okay, I write slowly, end quickly, but the editing is relentless, like you really have to rip it out of my hands, because I'm always like, is there a more clear way to say this? Is there a more compelling or elegant way to say this? I. Um, is there more concise way to say this? And so, yeah, up until the very end, I was just like, cutting, cutting, cutting. It's a long book because it's transcribed interviews, but yeah, I really, I don't feel like there's a lot that's extra actually in there. No, I

Traci Thomas 50:18

mean, I was like, I could do more. I could I could have spent, I could spend, like, days and days and days on this book. I just think, I think it's perfect. Oh, this is, like, such a weird question, but I love your voice so much. Do you like your voice, or do you hate the sound of your voice, like every other person on the face of the earth?

Speaker 1 50:39

I was raised as a jazz singer, okay, and so I'm very much tuned into not just the tone of the voice, but sort of the melody of how we speak. And I am a person who watches the game tapes. So when I was hosting a podcast, I was the only person on our team of producers and reporters who would listen to it after it was aired, to try to experience it as our listeners were experiencing it, and say, oh, that didn't really land because of this intonation, this pause, this that sounds sort of annoying and like nasally, like I really do critique that stuff, because I want people to not be distracted, yeah, by my voice. And also, this is a weird detail to share, but I was so concerned with not having a high pitched, girly, unserious voice. I like, love a low voice. Across genders. I'm like, Give me that. Yes, you know, rich, deep tone, and I have a very low singing voice, but when I'm speaking, it's not very low. And I tried to make my voice lower when I was podcasting, and I actually damaged my voice, wow. And I was in voice therapy for like, a year to regain my normal speaking voice. I had like, nodes growing on my vocal cords. I had, like, all this, or all my tension in my throat. So I was, like, trying so, so you learned your lesson. I learned my lesson perfect, just the way you are. It is the way it is. But I'm obsessive about editing likes out of audio. So I don't know who edits your audio, but I hope they will delete some of those.

Traci Thomas 52:30

I say, like so much. People hate it. I know it's just, I'm a valley grown from California. That's just who I am. I'm a liker. And, you know, I think a lot about this, because I think like, like, I think about the ways that women are trivialized for our voices and and are made, made to be, made to seem un important because we say like, or we have a high pitched Voice, or whatever it is. And I refute this. I refute this idea that I should have to change how I speak, because it makes you think that I'm stupid when I'm not stupid. You should just be able to listen to people. I mean, there's this great book called word slut. Have you heard of this? No, I want to hear about it. It's all about language and the way and feminism and the ways that women's voices are critiqued, whether it's vocal fry or high pitched or saying like. And she talks about the Linguistics of the word like, and what women are actually doing with the word like. And she talks about like, what you're doing, where you're saying to me, how a lot of men hate this they hate this idea. They think that you're interrupting it. I think, whatever, but it's actually a way for women to show that they're paying attention. And it's like this whole cultural study of the way that women use language, and she even talks about words, how words about men are always positive, whereas like, like Sir is always positive, but madam can also be a sex worker, right? Or a princess and a prince. A princess can be a total bitch, she can be spoiled, she can be that, but a prince is just a prince or a king and a queen, right? And so she gets into this whole thing about language. And that really changed how I because I used to be very insecure about saying like. I used to be very insecure about talking like a valley girl, and people still sometimes say things to me about it, but I feel more confident in it, because I feel like it doesn't make me any less smart. And if that's if that's your problem with me, maybe that's your problem and not my problem. Yeah, you know, that's my chesty rant about it, but I think there's

Speaker 1 54:34

something about really having been brought up in jazz music that I have a very particular relationship with my voice, which is not to critique other people's, but to say, and I think it's also because of the things that I'm talking about. Yeah, like, I don't want to annoy people when I'm talking about climate solutions, I'm desperately trying to welcome them in. So there's already. Bit of that strategic like, if I can sound soothing or melodic, or, you know, approachable or cool or whatever, then maybe more people will roll up their sleeves and

Traci Thomas 55:13

have, yeah, I think that's so funny, because I think about this too with this show, because books are often so people have such a hard time having an entry point because it feels so stiff. People are so smart, it's so pretentious. And so one of the things that I always try to do is welcome people in by saying, you know, I'm just as stupid as you like. You know, this is a safe space to talk about books, whether you have a master's degree in fiction or whether you're me and you just like to read. And so it's similar to, sort of what you're talking about, stupid, or you stupid, no, but I think sometimes people feel like they're not enough. They're not like so many people like, I'm not a reader and I'm like, you read 100 books a year. What do you mean? You're not a reader, you read books a year. Yeah. So I think I do think about, you know, how I speak, sort of similarly to you, but also different, because I think I'm inviting people in in a different to a different space, in a different way. And I think for you, it's interesting to think about how you how you think of your voice as a tool to get your message across and to invite people in. It's

Speaker 1 56:22

all of it. It's your voice. It's your like. I've thought a lot about what I wear, yeah, for and honestly, speaking to teenagers is the most intimidating, of course, right? How do I get these kids that again, cool and want in climate jobs? Yeah? I mean, I think about all of these things about how I am a messenger, and I really do see my role in the climate movement as one of welcomer. And so what would it mean to make more people feel welcome, to help more people find their roles? And I don't think it's superficial at all to think about the way we talk, the way we present ourselves, the way we write, the way we do a book tour, the way we design our books, the way we create websites and other things around our books as part of signaling to people that they are welcome that this is for them, right? Okay, I

Traci Thomas 57:23

just have two more questions for you all right. One is, what is the least sexy, nerdiest, esoteric thing you have learned on this journey with this book?

Speaker 1 57:35

Yeah. So this is a question I ask everyone I interview about their least sexy, nerdiest, most esoteric climate solution. Got some very good answers the journey of making this book. I mean, I don't know if I guess I re learned it. It's okay to sweat the small stuff. The details really matter, and they add up. I don't work at any minute spent on a detail of this project.

Traci Thomas 58:02

Yeah, I love that. Okay, if you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who would you want it to be?

Speaker 1 58:09

Ooh, would they so the question is, would they read it and then would it influence them? Or would they just turn the pages?

Traci Thomas 58:18

You know what? I'm gonna let you pick whichever one of those is more exciting to you.

Speaker 1 58:23

I mean, I cringe to say this, but I feel like American politics is such a shit show, like if I could get Donald Trump or Elon Musk to not just turn the pages but actually read and absorb this book about the problems, about the possibilities, about who's getting screwed, about all the solutions we have that would be the game changer, because these are people who have so much power and influence over like half this country, yeah, who are absolutely not leading us down the path to climate solutions and a safe future. But could, I mean, one of the things that really stands out to me is it's Iowa and Texas that have the most wind energy in the United States. You know, it's not because there's a bunch of hippies that move there. It's because it makes economic sense and they're good jobs, and the battery manufacturing for EVs is in the South and the Midwest, right, all of these places that desperately need climate solutions, that are being underserved by conservative climate science denying politicians like, cut that out, like there are honest conversations to be had about which policies would be most effective, or cost effective, or just etc. But we're not even having those conversations. We're having a like, is science real state of the debate still, which is like? Not a debate. It's just like you're rejecting reality. And I find that to be so terrifying about our country is we don't actually have agreement on a basic set of facts anymore. Yeah, yeah. And so yeah, I would love and even more deeply frustrating is a lot of the politicians are just pretending to be climate deniers. They know full well that it's right, but it's become politicized and makes it impossible to get reelected in some places, if you just acknowledge the truth of what we're all experiencing. So yeah, that's that would be great. But, you know, I don't know that Trump reads books, so, no, a long shot.

Traci Thomas 1:00:42

Yeah, no, that would be great. That is what we need. Everyone at home. You can get your copy of, what if we get it right, visions of climate futures. Wherever you get your books. You could also get it from the library. If you wanted to reuse, you could request it at your library. You should see, make sure it's there, make sure it's at your local library. And I the audiobook reveals in your audiobooks and Ayana. Thank you so much, first for writing this book, but also for coming on the show. This was such a pleasure, an

Speaker 1 1:01:11

honor and a pleasure, and your review that you posted on Instagram is my favorite review of the book. It is so glorious and generous and welcoming and like, specific enough that I know you actually read the whole thing.

Traci Thomas 1:01:26

Oh, I read the whole thing. I did. I read it. I listened to it every single moment. I just, I just love this book. I don't, I don't even, I didn't think I was going to and so I wrote it for you. Apparently, it turns out. But like, you know, sometimes you go into a book like, Oh, I'm curious about this thing, but, like, it's probably like, it's probably, you know, whatever, I probably won't care. And it was when I got to the, like, the logging, farming guy, like, very early I was in the airport, and I was like, Oh, this is this book is for me. Like, I was like, like, I was liking it, but it was that interview. And then I think that one closely goes into seeds. I think seeds is next. And I was like, oh, okay, I'm actually exactly where I'm supposed to be with this book. Like, this was this book entered my life for a reason. Like, I'm so glad I'm here. And I just like, was so, yeah,

Speaker 1 1:02:16

wait to see what you do next. What is in the heart of your comment?

Traci Thomas 1:02:19

I will. I'm gonna keep you I'm also gonna keep you posted on the lettuce I need. I need constant lettuce update. Set up a live cam.

Speaker 1 1:02:29

We also, we grew some carrots from seed. Okay, they are sprouting from seed. By myself. Harvesting carrots is one of my favorite things in the world. It feels like pure magic to pull a carrot out of the soil is just like, I'm sorry, what is this delicious, bright orange.

Traci Thomas 1:02:48

That's okay. That's okay. Some of the seeds didn't work. But anyways, I'm so excited about this. I will keep you posted. I It's I think about you in this book. Like, so far, every day since I finished it, I think about it. I'm like, wow. What would that look like? What is this like, you know, and even like small shit, like talking to my kids about just like, you know, I know that's again, really small, really little. But like having new ways of thinking about or like of how to communicate to them what they're doing and how it's connected to other people, especially

Speaker 1 1:03:14

for young people who are who know that we're doing it wrong on COVID right now who are worried about their futures. The question is, how can we show them that we have the solutions, that they can be part of them? And actually, my next book project, I think, is going to be a children's book or my series, mostly to help parents talk about with their kids, and to help kids think about ways that they can, yeah, well, I've

Traci Thomas 1:03:41

got twin, almost five year olds, and so they will be right fast. Yeah, right for them. Your for your adult book was for me, your kid books will be for the minimal perfect you got it well. Thank you so much. And everyone get the book, and everyone else will see you in the stacks.

All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Ayana Elizabeth Johnson for joining the show. And I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Carla, Bruce Eddings and Janissa Shrestha for helping to make this conversation possible. Don't forget the stacks book club pick for November is luster by Raven Leilani, and we will be discussing that book on Wednesday, November 27 with Justine Kay. If you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack and check out my substack at tracithomas.substack.com. make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media@thestackspod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and @thestackspod_ on Twitter, and you can check out our website at thestackspodcast.com.this episode of the stats was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me Traci Thomas.

Megan Caballero
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Ep. 345 The Fear of Vulnerability with Jason Reynolds