Ep. 345 The Fear of Vulnerability with Jason Reynolds

Written By Megan Caballero

This week, #1 New York Times bestselling author Jason Reynolds joins us to discuss his latest book, Twenty-Four Seconds from Now . . .: A Love Story. Jason shares why he chose to tell the story of a young Black boy on the brink of a life-changing moment and reflects on vulnerability, intimacy, and the power of connecting with audiences. We also explore Jason’s unique approach to storytelling and what it means to see yourself within the literary canon.

The Stacks Book Club pick for November is Luster by Raven Leilani. We will discuss the book on November 27th with Justine Kay returning as our guest.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:09

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I am thrilled to welcome back to the stacks. Friend of the pod, MacArthur Genius and number one New York Times best selling author Jason Reynolds, his latest book is called 24 seconds from now, and it is a heartfelt exploration of young love and the complexities of teenage relationships. The book has a unique reverse timeline through which Jason captures the nuances of intimacy, family dynamics and personal growth. Today, Jason and I talk about the fallacy of masculinity, the risks and rewards of powerful storytelling, and how Jason feels about being a part of the quote, unquote, literary canon. Don't forget, our book club pick for November is luster by Raven Leilani, and we will be discussing that book on Wednesday, November 27 with Justine Kay. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. Listen up if you love the stacks and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks and join now. It is just $5 a month, and when you join, you get to be a part of our incredible discord community. You get to join our monthly virtual book club meetups, and you get bonus episodes each month. And during this time of year, you also get access to the mega challenge. You also get to vote on the stackies, which are the stacks pack exclusive literary awards. And you get your very own reading tracker. So if you've been considering joining the stacks pack, now is the time to do it by going to patreon.com/the stacks. And in addition to all those perks, you also get to know that your support makes it possible for me to make this black woman run independent book podcast. Another fun perk of joining the stacks back is that you get a shout out on this very show. So thank you to Brioni, nuosu, Kalia, Burke, yasina, Sotelo and Sarah Zettel. If you're less interested in community, but you still want to support the work of the show and keep up with all of my hot takes, bookish opinions, pop culture, plus whatever else I'm up to go to Traci, thomas.substack.com subscribe to my newsletter. It goes directly to your email inbox, and it also helps the show be made every single week. Okay, that's it. Thank you all now it's time for my conversation with Jason Reynolds.

All right, everybody. I am, of course, so excited to bring to you friends of the pod, one of my favorite people in the book world, but maybe period, just the greatest, Jason Reynolds. He's here today for his newest book. It's called 24 seconds from now, I'm gonna let him tell you about it. But Jason, welcome back

Jason Reynolds 2:58

to the stacks. Thanks. Traci, always good to see you. Always good to

Traci Thomas 3:01

see you. I feel like I was like, There's Jason. Okay, tell the people in about 24 seconds or less, what the book is about,

Jason Reynolds 3:10

nice, 24 seconds from now is, is a love story from the perspective of a kid named neon Benton, who's in love with his girlfriend, Aria, and they've been together for two years and have decided that they're ready to have sex. And so this is the story of his interior workings as he navigates and connects to that part of himself and trying to figure out how to manage that part of his relationship with his other half. Okay,

Traci Thomas 3:38

so what's great for me is that I remember talking about this book with you on tour. This is, I think, I think at the time, you said it was the first time you were really talking about the book publicly, and you sort of told us about it, and everyone in the audience was like, Ooh, it's gonna be, like, so intense, like, whatever, people are gonna freak out. Have the people freaked out about it? Are you getting pushback at all about writing this book about young kids and sex?

Jason Reynolds 4:01

No. So strangely enough, so far I haven't really gotten not that. Here's the thing, I don't really look for it, so maybe it might be sort of going through the gauntlet of censorship, but I haven't heard anything yet. Yeah, it's weird. I usually there's always such a fuss, but no, not yet. But this also means that, like, there are probably libraries that never got it, there are probably schools that never got it right. It just never entered in, let alone be taken out,

Traci Thomas 4:29

right, right, right. I want to Okay. I want to know why you wanted to write this book. I've heard you talk about, like, sort of how you wrote it, that you like, you know, thought of you talk to your brother, you talk to your friends. But I just want to know, like, where this idea even came from, from you, and why it was one that stuck, like, why it was one that was worth actually writing a book about for you.

Jason Reynolds 4:47

Yeah, I think, to be honest with you, I think there are lots of things that are never quite spoken about as it pertains to boyhood, right as. It pertains to childhood in general, right? But I think boyhood is such a cabinet of secrets for all sorts of reasons, right, the fear of vulnerability, the fear of one's own emotions, right? I think boys have been raised to be afraid of themselves. I think there's all sorts of implications of what it might mean to have a healthy sexual relationship with yourself and your partner, because the boy is supposed to be a walking penis, right? He's supposed to sort of be some strange, rabid animal who is on the hunt and on the prowl and all. You know, all the ways that we talk about what it is to be a teenage boy. And I just, I just don't know if that's the full story, right? Are hormones raging? Absolutely. Hormones are raging. Testosterone is at a high and and curiosity is even higher, right? Those things are true, but it does not suddenly dehumanize, right? Boy, right? Those things don't override the boy's sort of personality and it's humanity. Now social pressures might do that sometimes. But who we but who we really are, or who I was and who most of my friends were, were like, sweethearts, right? Right? We were, we were, we were gentlemen and we were knuckleheads, both, right? Like, I missed the days of the gentleman gangster. Yeah, we need to talk about the gentleman gangster, right? Where they were, these guys who were, like, you knew they were kind of bad guys, but they but they were sweet, and they were kind and they were gentle, right? And I, and I, and though I'm no gangster, I think there is something about the balance of, like, yes, this boy is the sort of stereotypical, rambunctious boy. And also, and also a cupcake, because that's closer to the truth,

Traci Thomas 6:42

right? Do you feel like in writing about this stuff, like, is it a challenge for you because you're an adult and like, this is such, when I think about, like, writing about kids and sex, I'm sort of like, isn't that weird for an adult to do that? But then I'm also like, well, your job is to write about things for kids. So, but do you feel like you struggle to, like, find that balance of like, I don't want to be creepy or like, pervy or whatever, like, I don't want people to think that. Like, do you hear what I'm getting at?

Jason Reynolds 7:12

Yeah, of course, of course. I mean, it's the reason why there's no actual sex scene in the book, sure. Right? Like, I don't, I don't write a sex scene because I just couldn't do it, right? That's too much for me, right? Like, and I know people are like, No, you got to be an artist. Just make your art. I'm like, yeah, there's some level of responsibility that that one has to move with, especially when you're writing for this population. So there's no actual sex scene. And as you know, the book moves backwards, so we have this sort of interesting scene in the beginning of the book where it's sort of, you know, It's as hot and bothered as it gets, and then it moves in the opposite direction, right? So that we actually don't see the sex scene. The sex scene would be in the future, but we're going into the past, right? So, so, of course, but the other thing is, is that I understand what it is to be a man, to be a heterosexual, cisgender male, right? And be in the energy that comes with that, right? And so it was so, so there was no way for me to remove or or to pretend like whatever that energy is would show itself in the language and in the work, even if I got it right, right, my argument is that, like Judy Blume, could have written the sex scene 10 times over, right? Some of my, some of my contemporaries, right, could have written the sex scene 10 times over. Some of them have written many, many sex scenes and write books, but because they are women or because they are queer, it doesn't necessarily read with the same tone that it perhaps would had it been me writing about two teenagers having sex. It's a weird sort of thing that I really had to think about and make some tough decisions. And it's that very thing, by the way, Traci, that I'm also in the subtext trying to address in the book. Right, right? Like, do young boys understand what it is to be in that body? Do they understand the energy that they that they bring into a room? Do they understand how temperature can change if they aren't aware or intentional about who they are and how they are around their counterparts,

Traci Thomas 9:05

okay, so, but do you have like, I guess my question is, how come there are so many YA books that involve sex, that are written by women and like queer people like romance? It's like there's so many, I feel like there's so many queer ya romances in a way that, like, I just don't even it doesn't feel I mean, obviously I'm not a huge ya reader, so this is what I see. But I just like, there's so many stories about like queer children in romantic relationships, and not as many that I feel like are, especially like with black kids or brown kids that are heterosexual relationships or healthy heterosexual relationships, like, you have some where it's like, like, it's like, abusive or like the like, the girl, like, but I feel like these, like healthy heterosexual relationships in YA books I just do not see, and I'm wondering, like, if you have a sense for as to why? Yeah.

Jason Reynolds 10:00

Oh, because I don't think, I think that people believe that a healthy black heterosexual, ya, fantasy. I mean, why a romance? I think the assumption is they wouldn't sell. I think on one side of it, from a business model, I think people feel like a healthy Black couple is painting, is painting white paint on a white wall, right? And that and that there's and that there's nothing sort of interesting about it. Now, we know this isn't true, right, obviously, but I but I think the assumption is there has to be drama. There has to be conflict. You know, there's no real conflict in the story. No, there's no, there's and it somebody said this is a departure for most of your stories, but it's really not right. Most of my stories are about, sort of, how do we explore the interior lives of young people? That's it, right? Sometimes there are moments that are that are really complicated. Yes, that happens. But if you look at a lot of my stories, if you look at, sort of look both ways. If you look at the rest of the track series, not ghosts, but even in ghosts, the first three pages are traumatic, but the rest of the book has nothing to do with it, right, right? And most of my stories are really about like, what would it be like if we were to able to, if we were able to cut a slice out of the black pie and say, Here is just a moment. What would it be like if we were Steve McQueen making small acts, right? Making those, making those movies, right? And this was, and this was lovers rock, where we're going to have two hours of a dance party, where black people are just going to enjoy themselves, and there's not going to be any big blow up. Nothing's going to happen,

Traci Thomas 11:34

right? Well, that's kind of the central question of erasure, right? Have you read that for Everett? It's like, of course, of course, yeah, like that. I mean, I think, like, that's actually a central question, I think for a lot of black artists, just in their work, is like, How can I tell a story about blackness that isn't the kind of story about blackness, or not even about blackness, but that is centering black people, that isn't the kind of story that white people want or like, which is,

Jason Reynolds 12:04

which is, which is a complicated thing, because so much of what white people want we have ingested and have learned, or at least believe that it is what we want, right, right? And so and so now the white gaze becomes something that is a lot more it's a lot more ethereal than I think we give credit to, right? And because of that, and because of that, becomes a lot more insidious. So, so a prime example would be people saying, like, yo. So like, he really is sweet, and like, he's not, like, super sexy, he's not all over her, he's not this, that, and the third, and it's like, yeah, because black boys get to be late bloomers, right? Why does that seem so strange to so many people that a 17 year old might be inexperienced, right, right? But only in the black world. Nobody cares if a white boy is inexperienced at 17, right,

Traci Thomas 12:55

right, right, right. How sweet? How much were you thinking about that as you're crafting the characters, like, are you is, does this character come to you and you're like, Oh, this is just like, this sweet boy. Or are you thinking like, I want to push back against this stuff as I'm writing this character or writing a story,

Jason Reynolds 13:13

uh, both, little bit of both, you know, I mean, I think just inherently, I'm always trying to push back. I'm always trying to, I'm always trying to, sort of, you know, be subversive in subtle ways, right? Where it's like, Look The truth is, is that a black boy gets to be a late bloomer, a black, this particular black boy, it's the same thing I did in like, you look at All American Boys making the choice to make sure that he's not the basketball player, he's not right? He's just a regular kid on ROTC who wants to be an artist, right? Because those kids exist, right? And so it's really about sort of scanning the black landscape, or the landscape of all young people, and saying, like, what do I get to pluck out and say, like, let's explore what this kid might be like, the kid who loves manga, the kid who loves the anime, the kid who wants to put on a costume and go to a con, but also loves listening to, like, super hardcore 90s hip hop, the kid who Right? Like, because those kids are all over the place, right, right, right, right. So, so, so what? So it's really about, like, what makes sense to me and feels right for me, for the story I want to tell, what would sort of, what would sort of invigorate me in the telling of a story, while also being subversive about the images in which we see, the limited images in which we see black children, let alone black boys, to be I've

Traci Thomas 14:25

always wanted to ask you about this, and it's just ever come up, but I think now's a good time. I know we have talked about audience, you and I many times about that you write for children. You write for young black children, right? And you and you put these stories into the world. But I also know that you're an extremely smart, thoughtful human who is very aware of your work and how it enters the world. So I know that you know that plenty of white women, adults and teachers and administrators and parents are reading your work. How much are you thinking about them in your writing, knowing that oftentimes they are the gatekeepers who. For the books getting to your target audience, right? That, like not every kid can go to the store and just buy a book like that. They have to get it through their school library. So how much is that sort of secondary, but very, you know, large part of your audience in your mind as you're writing stories,

Jason Reynolds 15:17

none, none. I don't think about it. No, no, no, no, no, I don't think about them. You know, I have a theory. I have a have this theory that the biggest misconception about being a black artist is that you have to sway toward the white the white audience. Yeah, and the reason why, and the reason why is because white people have never had a problem with engaging with whatever they want to engage with, specifically as it pertains to things outside of themselves. Why people have always loved black art? There's no reason for you to go and chase them. They've been chasing you forever. All you have to do is do your thing and do it well, and they will show up. It's no different than if I was years ago, me and my buddy was like, we'll open a coffee shop in the neighborhood, and we'll make sure people know it's black owned. And my buddy was like, but if it's black owned, like, what? How like, what if like, it limits our it limits our demographic of people who go and buy coffee. No, it won't right, because White, because white folk go where they want to go, right. It's black folk who feel a little more trepidation with walking into an establishment that they feel like they're unwanted in, but white folk go wherever they want to go, right. And so that's the way so, so like, when it comes to me writing the books, I'm not thinking about them, not because I'm not I'm not grateful that they are buying and reading and passing these books to their kids. It's not that at all. It's that they're not my target, and I know they're going to come right? I know that they're already baked in, because they don't have the fear and trepidation because they are teaching our kids and looking after these young folk, because they are librarians, because they are trying to some of them are trying to connect, right? So, like, I Nah, it's not a concern,

Traci Thomas 16:54

right? I didn't mean it as a concern, but just more of like, is it in your head at all? And as you create? But no, nah. Okay. I This is, I think this is a good segue, because this so you and I are recording for people who are listening. We're recording two days after the election, which is like a crazy time to record anything I feel like, and I maybe only would ever do this with you. So thank you for agreeing. But I also knew this episode was going to go up after the election, and I sort of didn't want the first episode after the election to act election to act like we had no idea what happened, and like we recorded this six months ago, because that's a crazy feeling when you're listening to a thing. But one of the things I've been thinking a lot about before, in the lead up to and now, certainly afterwards, is men and boys. I think a friend of the show, Sarah Hildreth, she's got an Instagram called fiction matters and a sub stack, and she wrote this great piece. She was a former English teacher about boy books and girl books, and how in school there is this push to teach certain books to all kids, but when other books that maybe center a female protagonist or are about like women things, for example, she uses Jane Austen and she uses like beloved as an example. There's this pushback, like, oh, well, boys won't be able to relate to these books. And it's a little bit of what you were just talking about, about, like, white folks go wherever they want. They'll take whatever they'll engage with, whatever art they want, go to whatever coffee shop they want. And I'm wondering if, if this, like catering to boys, is part of our problem right now, that, like young boys and adult boys, who are also known as men, cannot empathize and relate and read into the experiences of other people, because we've never asked them to do that work.

Jason Reynolds 18:45

That's a very, very good point. And I would agree, and also I would say that there is a danger in catering. There is no danger in connecting. So to cater right? Argues that we're placating boys, yeah. And what I'm trying to do, what I've been trying to do for so long, is to connect with them so that I can bring them along into the conversations about all the other things that we need them to know, to be whole human beings in the world, and to engage with the stories of women and girls and and queer folk and everyone else in this world. But I think that, I think, I think that by the time they get to the age in which we start having these conversations, they've already been socialized a particular way we we act as though they just become right. But the truth of the matter is this begins very, very, very, very young, right when it comes to what a boy can play with, when it comes to sort of how a boy can can feel or not feel right, boys are told to get up and not to cry. Boys are told to brush it off and walk it off. Boys are told to be tough. Boys are told to do right. We learn even, even those of us who were raised, I'm from, I'm from a. Know, you know, got southern parents right. Were raised to be to be chivalrous at like five, right? Right? At like five. And some might argue that, like, Oh yeah, it's gentlemanly. But others might argue that, like, immediately you infantilize women, right? You've been taught to infantilize women, right? And from from a subconscious level, and so, I think by the time they get to me, I'm trying to connect for some undoing. I'm trying to connect so that I can soften the palette and say, Hey, there's actually a big world out here that you actually will not survive in, not in a healthy way, if you can't understand how to be more whole and broaden your sort of view about what is important in this world, and who, who else is important in this world? But I, but I agree that the boy book, girl book thing, the the who can play what sport and right? It's everywhere,

Traci Thomas 20:53

right? How do you make sure you're connecting and not catering? How do you approach it in that way?

Jason Reynolds 20:59

Well, I think that the for me, the key to connection is, I always say this is humility, intimacy and gratitude, and what that means, in the context of a book, is stepping into the space knowing that I don't know everything, and therefore sort of doing the extra work to write a kid who was put, who's put in spaces to be made humble, or to be humble, or to exercise a level of humility. And I mean humble in a very particular context here. I know we have all these sort of these days people are like, humility is not a thing. It's not a good thing. And what I mean is, I think that there, when I when I'm saying humility, I mean openness, right? I mean openness. And I think once, once we they can see themselves, because that's the other thing, right? All I'm trying to do is tell their secrets back to them, and once you and one, and once they know that you know, then there's no reason to keep up the mask, right? That's the other thing that we forget, is that you got all these boys living in like, in high school or in middle school, who are pretending, it's all posturing, right? And so what happens if somebody says, you know, I know you got on a mask, right? Right? It's like, it's like Tyler. It's like Tyler, the creator's new rollout, right, where he's wearing a mask of himself, a mask of his own face, right? Right? That's, that's literally what it is for so many of these young men. It's not that they're tough guys, it's not that they're look, they like this. It's like, it's like, chauvinistic seedlings. It's like, but there's still time. There's still time to like prune, there's still time to change the course of a particular pollination, right? We have time, but that would require us to sort of let them know that we know that, like, I can see you, I know you a cupcake. It's the same thing. Traci, I always talk about this. It's like every, everybody in a heterosexual relationship knows that their man loves to be the little spoon, right? But nobody outside of that relationship would know that, right, right? And the reason why is because they all wear masks. We all, we all sort of walk around grabbing ourselves and sort of like posturing and all this nonsense Dick swinging that does not help us. At least as a matter of fact, I'd even go as far as to say, and I don't know if we've had this conversation yet, I know me and Darnell have talked about this. I'd even go as far as to say that I want in my books and in my life, to dismantle masculinity on the whole, even if only for me, right, to completely take it apart. And people are always like, but you don't feel like you need any of it. No one can tell me what part of it has actually served my life, right? They're like, what about the protective aspect? Protection is inherent in human beings. It's a part of our sympathetic nervous systems. You protect them boys just as fast as Mr. Stacks would, right? Of

Traci Thomas 23:47

course, of course, of course. And it's so interesting, because I feel like protectiveness is a thing that's associated with women because of maternal whatever instincts. As you were talking I was like, hmm, what part of masculinity and I thought of protection. And then, of course, as soon as soon as you said that, I'm like, right, but I'm the most protective person I know. Like, of course, I'm right. But also that masculinity and femininity are not isolated to male or female bodies, right? Like, the idea of masculinity is just like a categorization. But like that, I, as a per as a cis woman, have a lot of masculine features, and if we consider protection to be one like that, I could have that even though I would argue like you're saying that it's maternal. I mean, I think none of it really serves any of us.

Jason Reynolds 24:31

I don't think any of it actually exists, right? And so I think, I think these are things that we sort of subscribe to, right? Because even the traits of you that you claim to be masculine are probably things that are probably good, things that are strong, and it's that, but there's nothing to do with masculinity. I can't like, like, I can't do nothing about my maleness, right? My maleness, right? My body is a real thing in the world. It's a tangible, concrete thing, my my mass and matter. I can't do anything about my physical strength. That is. Is, you see what I'm saying, all of those things, but that's male but that's maleness. Masculinity is nonsense that no one can Can, can convince me. Is helpful. And if femininity, if we were to argue, if we were to argue, sort of a bifurcated, sort of like, well, if this, then that right? And somebody says, Well, what about somebody? People say to me all the time, what about femininity? Is that? What about femininity? Is that real? And my answer is always the same. I don't know what if it is, but if it is, it hasn't harmed me,

Traci Thomas 25:29

right? But it also can't be real. If masculinity is not real, femininity can't be real. Masculinity exists because femininity exists, right? It's the same as race, right? Like, I mean, I think what's really interesting, like, now my brain's really churning. Jason, um, I think what I'm thinking about right now is like, as you're saying this, like, masculinity doesn't exist. I'm thinking, of course, about race, a thing that we, you know, know doesn't doesn't exist in in the world. We know that race exists as a construct, so it is impactful, but we know that it doesn't actually exist, like genetically, or whatever the fuck. But I'm thinking about like Trump, and I'm thinking about all the ways that he successfully, like has ignited people or terrorized people around these things that don't exist, right? Like his whole thing is he's like the boogeyman of of of identity politics, but the parts that don't really exist, right? Like, he's not like, he's like his whole shit is like racism, but like, that's not even real, like, we've allowed this person to haunt and incite or excite people around things that that aren't even real, and that's really scary to me. I

Jason Reynolds 26:49

mean, he's a, I mean, as far as I'm concerned, he's a, he's a master Imagineer, yes, right? But, but that's and that's frightening, but that's what the best storytellers are right, of course, right? He's a, right, he's a he's a master Imagineer. He understands that the key is narrative and imagination, right? The key is to tap into an is to create narrative and to tap into the the imagination of fearful people, people who are struggling, people so much so that they can't see that he's actually nothing like them, that he has a completely different story. You know, who you know, I was always laugh, and this is the polar opposite of Donald Trump, obviously. But I think about Bruce Springsteen all the time when I think about this, because, and I grew up, my dad was a, was a Bruce fan. My little brother is, like, he wants to be the boss so bad, right? So, like, so I came up on all this Bruce stuff, and then when Bruce was on Broadway, he was telling his story. It was brilliant, and he was, he was telling his story. And there's a part in it where he says, You know, I was writing about all of my father's friends in the bar and working in the factories, but I've never had a job. He's never had a job. This is a person who has he's worn plaid and denim and boots and bandanas. He's one. He's he's put on the costume. He's talked the talk. His skin even looks weathered, as if he's been, as if he's been under a car, right? As if he's been like in an auto body shop for 200 years, and he's never, he's literally been in an ivory Castle since. He was like 2324 Born to Run came out. He was like 25 he's never had a job, right? But he's got an entire popular we talk about millions of people who believe that he knows what the working man's plight is and has been able to put it in the song because he's lived it, but he hasn't, but he hasn't. Now, on the other side of that, you get a guy like Donald Trump. He hasn't lived it either, but he understands the same melody, the same rhythm, the same he understands that song, right, right? And that's scary. So my question to you, right as we talk about somebody like Trump or somebody like Bruce, is, what happens, if not just me but a bunch of us figure out ways to talk, to tell a new story about what it might mean for a boy to be human first, right? Before we attach all of the the masculinity and this and that and what if he could, if he could just be himself first, right,

Traci Thomas 29:29

right? I mean, I think like to the storytelling part of it. I think Bruce Trump, you, Barack Obama, Michelle Obama, all great storytellers, and I think that is the most important part. You have to be able to tell a story. You have to be able to create a narrative. Because, as you know, here on this show, we talk a lot about abolition, because that's a journey that I'm currently on. And I think about how sometimes it's really unsatisfying. Because the answer back to you is like, well, we don't know. You have to imagine a better future. You have to come up with this possibility. And while I think I have learned to be excited by that answer, it is not a story. There is no narrative there. It is not inherently exciting or motivating, because it requires you to do the work. And what's great about a story is that someone else does the work for you, and you just get to enjoy it, right? You just get to show up, be entertained. Be, you know, excited, be inspired to believe it. You get to believe you get to believe in something. And so I guess to answer your question is like, yes, if you are telling me this story, I am excited about it, because you are a good storyteller. But how do we get, how do we get more good storytellers, and how do we get more good stories like, how it can't just be Jason Reynolds has to write all these books to save, to save boys like you'll kill you. And I don't want that to happen.

Jason Reynolds 31:04

It will, but, but so one, let me say this, as I, as I, as I search for my modesty. One, let me say this, there are and will be others. Yes,

Traci Thomas 31:16

of course, of course. I don't want to. I've talked to many people. There are many other good storytellers. I shouldn't who

Jason Reynolds 31:23

are good storytellers, but what I will say is it, it also, I hope it is not just me, because it is not already, but, but, but I don't, I also don't underestimate the value of what a person, what one single person, could do, right? So like so like, a prime example is all of us talk about Toni Morrison, all of us, all of us talk about Octavia Butler, all of us quote Lucille Clifton, right. All of us quote, right. And the truth is, I could probably pull 1010, black women writers that have literally shaped the way many of us move through the world, right? Like that's it, right? So I won't be able to perhaps change the next 100 years, but I damn sure might be able to change the next 20. I damn sure might be able to shift the generation in the same way we were shifted the first time that we read beloved or Song of Solomon or whatever it was, or the first time that, you know, we read Audrey Lord and now had new rules about how we should attack or protest or think about political systems right or or the first time somebody quoted to us, or we read, you know, Lucille Clifton, right? You know, once you won't you celebrate with me, right? We all know it, right? It's it like lives in our bodies, right? And it's a thing. I mean, look after the election you saw, the Internet was full of Toni Morrison, Toni Morrison, Toni Morrison everywhere, right? So, I think so. So for me, in the same way that we're watching Donald Trump incite an entire generation of madness, it very well could be a book or two of my catalog, a book or two of this person's catalog and this person's cataloging and a key essay, a key essay, Layman and a Darnell Moore. I mean, we have but, but it very well might be that section of people in this particular time that changes, perhaps the way men feel about themselves, specifically black men in this particular generation. And if that were to be the case, what a gift, what a responsibility, but what a gift. Yeah, and if we do it right, and if we do it right, then there will be a trail of others coming behind us, in the same way that we are coming behind a bunch of folks who laid that foundation for us to begin with. Okay,

Traci Thomas 33:50

I want to take a quick break, and then I want to come back to this. Okay, we're back. And as you're talking about, you know, sort of, I guess, the legacy right of Toni Morrison and and Lucille Clifton and COVID Butler and, you know, whoever it is, for you dear listener, I'm thinking about, I'm thinking, I'm going back to this idea of, like, what's being taught in the classroom, right? And what books are, you know, quote, unquote, Canon, whatever we can have, that conversation is boring to me, but yes, and I'm thinking about, do you Jason, because the other thing about you that I know and we've talked about is that you think about your legacy and your place in in the literary world. And we've talked about, you know, your chip on your shoulder, about being a person who writes for young people and feeling like you kind of don't get the same. I mean, you not kind of that you don't, that people don't treat young adult books or children's books the same way, though, congratulations on being a genius whatever. I mean, I already knew it, but I'm glad my cards are COVID. But do you. You think about your work in relationship to something like The Great Gatsby, or in relationship to something like Catcher in the Rye, because you are taught in classrooms, and you have made it to the place where, like it's not just like the book is in the library, but like your books are taught alongside these canonical texts? Yeah,

Jason Reynolds 35:27

sometimes, some that's a good question, because I I'm trying to be honest as honest as possible. I appreciate it, because my knee jerk reaction is, no, I don't be thinking about them white folk, right? I don't think about those books, even though I've read all those books. And some of them I love, funny enough, but um, or not funny enough, some of them are good. From which

Traci Thomas 35:47

ones do you love? Uh,

Jason Reynolds 35:50

I really, really loved Of Mice and Men. And then it's weird, right? It's like one of these books. I mean, there are even remnants of that story, of the other relationship in that story, and some of my books, my man, Lenny, you know, I don't know if it's because I grew up around somebody like Lenny, who was also named Lenny, that did it, that did it for me, or what, but that book, it resonated. I also really did love To Kill a Mockingbird, even though I know, I know it's an unpopular opinion now, but the but the thing is, is that? But the thing is, is that? And I totally get the critique, and also share in that critique, but I try, but I try to, I try to keep it in context and in the time in which it was written, me personally, I take my hat off to Harper Lee in the same way, in the same way that I take my hat off to Judy Blume when she wrote Iggy's house in 1968 1969 just after Dr King was was killed, her first novel is called Iggy's house, and no one has read it, even though I think it's the best thing she ever wrote. And it's all about white flight and about a white family, and about a white family who has a there's a daughter in a white household who goes and introduces herself to the new black family on the block who moves into Iggy's house because Iggy's moved to China, and they moved in from Detroit after the King riots. I think it's a masterwork of a book, but Judy, but Judy hates it, because she feels like she got it wrong. But for me, but for me keeping it in the context of which it was written, which was 1968 1969 it was published, I think in 70 Right, right? I have a certain kind of respect and appreciation for those books. I do. I do. And there are others. I mean, look, I didn't look. I read The Great Gatsby probably 10 times. And there are parts of that book that I find intriguing. You know, I read, what's the other one? The short one was it this out of paradise, another F Scott Fitzgerald book that I also loved when I read it years and years and years ago. I mean, look, there's a lot of I mean, I think Flannery. Flannery O'Connor was the most racist person ever. A good man is hard to find. Was a good collection.

Traci Thomas 38:24

Listen, you know, my problematic favorite book is gone with the way, exactly. This is also the point about storytelling, good storytelling. Listen, you can convince me that anything about antebellum slavery if you are giving me Scarlet O'Hara and Rhett Butler, okay,

Jason Reynolds 38:41

I hate, I hate the catcher in the ride, which, by the way, the catcher in arise. Another book that, like spawned the generation of of behavioral characteristics, right? Which is a fascinating thing to think about. That book literally created clones, right?

Traci Thomas 38:55

It created a whole type of man, a type of man. Just look at that

Jason Reynolds 38:58

book like the Bible, right? And but what I will say is, though I didn't necessarily like the story, I can't pretend like when I was in my 20s to early 20s, and I opened that book up that I wasn't intrigued by the language, by the way, by the looseness of the language, right? The way that I was like, Huh? That's an interesting thing to do. That's an interesting way. I hadn't read a book specifically by a white person that felt like that, right? I read books about black people that felt kind of colloquial and loose in that way. But there was something about the language. I was like, that's interesting. This story sucks. This kid is a I hate this kid, but also, yeah, but I do you know who else I feel that way about? I feel about Sally Rooney. I've never read it as you know, like intermezzo, I was like, I bought intermezzo. I've never read any of her work, because I know that, because everybody's like, she's like, the person everybody loves to hate for some strange reason, and I don't know what she's done or who she is, you know, I

Traci Thomas 39:52

don't you think people love to hate her. I think people love to love her. People love her. She's like, and

Jason Reynolds 39:57

that's why people love to hate her. You see your face. Right for the audience. You can't see Traci space, she rolled their eyes.

Traci Thomas 40:03

But the thing about me is also I know I know if I'm gonna like something, sure, sure, sure. And I don't like to read things that I think I'm gonna dislike, because then I have to talk about it, and then everybody thinks I'm mean. And I don't like people to think I mean. So I try to avoid reading books I don't think I'm gonna like, because I don't want everyone to think I'm a book bully because everyone's up my ass.

Jason Reynolds 40:25

I think that's fair. And I think for me, I avoided Sally Rooney because of all the hype, and then I picked up intermezzo, and I read the first couple of pages, and I really liked the writing, and I haven't finished the book, but I just really liked the writing, right? And I think for me as a writer, my reading process, and the reasons I read are very can sometimes be a little different from a casual reader. Just because I'm looking for craft, I'm looking for style, I'm looking for sort of like, what is like if I had to, sort of, if I had to, sort of turn this flat, if I had to flatten it all out and look at it as a diagram, what does the storytelling like? What's the sequencing of this story? You know, like, I'm thinking about all of those things. So, like, the story might be, that's the reason why I love Ali Smith. I don't know what Ali Smith be talking about, but I just like, I just like the language. I just like to live in the language. And so, yeah, so your point, yeah, some of them white books. The big point is, do I think of my books up against those, those, sorry, there's a long digression. I'm sorry. No, it's okay. That was fun, but it was like a nerd out time. But I wanted to say no, but I think something sometimes is the honest answer. I think sometimes, I think All American Boys has been used in classrooms as either comparative lit with Tequila Mockingbird or as a replacement to the killer Mockingbird, and all over the country, and that has been interesting. And, you know, and I think there are, I love the way people talk about Long Way Down, up against Dickens. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So I so I never think about it. But when people do it and tell me about it, then I sort of think about it. What

Traci Thomas 42:05

do you think about it?

Jason Reynolds 42:08

That it just has a place there, and there isn't like, like, there's not a there, there, by the way, like, there isn't like a right, right, but that there's a place for it. In the minds of the people who felt like the Canon was unshakable. So it's not so it so it isn't that I think like, Oh, I get to sort of finally be with F, Scott Fitzgerald. I could care less about standing next to F, Scott Fitzgerald, I'm trying to stand next to Zora Neale Hurston anyway, right? But sure. But it does matter to me that I that I can sort of rest in the mind of the person who thinks that F Scott Fitzgerald is my is a monument, and that somebody might erect my monument there, sometimes in his in his stead, right? Because those same people are teaching my children,

Traci Thomas 42:53

right? Well, because I think that's the thing that I'm so interested in, is like the Canon is not interested. Interesting to me. As far as like adults go, it is interesting to me that the canon is really built for people in their English classes as children. Yeah. So, like to me, Dickens is not in my Canon because I never was taught Dickens. I was taught F Scott Fitzgerald, so that is I was taught Harper Lee. So, like, in my mind, those are the books, because those are the books that I was told were books before I knew that I could decide what a book was right, like, before I started doing this, and I got to say, like this is my Canon right, or like that these other books are part of the canon that I didn't even know about. I was never assigned Toni Morrison in high school. I did know about Toni Morrison, but I was an AP English.

Jason Reynolds 43:49

Spoiler alert, English teachers now look at me,

Traci Thomas 43:53

but like that, that what is meaning, what is important and interesting and worthy of discussion when it comes to like canonical text is that most of that is defined for people at an age before they can define it for themselves. And so that's why I'm so interested in you becoming part of these canons, these classroom canons, because that means that you become part of adult versions of these kids canons, right? That like they say, like I wasn't taught anything contemporary that I can remember in English. We did read, like, joy, Luck Club in a lit and film class I took, and that was sort of contemporary ish, right? That that would have been in like 2004

Jason Reynolds 44:35

1990 it

Traci Thomas 44:39

was still old, but like, I can't think of reading any books in the 2000s that came out in the 2000s but I got sidetracked, but like that, you will be carried forth with these people, these students, these young people now into their future. Book podcast like into their future, bookstagrams and into their future. Whatever it is the books that they will like. I'm reading Charlotte's Web chapter by chapter right now to the minis, because that was a book I read as a kid. They're a little young for it, but they like they're liking being read aloud chapter books. It's like they're we listen to like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory on audio, and they're paying attention. And I'm like, you are. I'm like, what happened? And they're like, Oh, he didn't get the ticket. They bought another bar, and there's no ticket. And I'm like, Whoa, good job. So yeah, so that's why I'm interested to know what it's like for you, knowing that your books are being taught in these rooms where also these other things are being taught.

Jason Reynolds 45:41

It's amazing. I mean, I'm also in that part of my career where I've been around long enough for the kids who started reading my books in fifth and sixth grade to be out of college and so and so. What Happens all the time like Bailey, is I'm in the post office, and I turn around and there's some lovely woman with a camera out who says, Can I show you a picture? And she'll show me a picture of her very small children reading ghosts and as brave as you, and so forth and so on. And then she'll swipe to the right, and it'll be her grown sons holding the same books and being like they all have made it to college. They're all readers. They all this. They are that. And they still come home every summer and get their friends together for book club, and they still all just read your books, right? Like that happens? Yeah, and what does that mean? And recently, I was in the UPS. This happened three weeks ago. I was in UPS Store, and the lady came and said, Hey, can I take a picture with you to show my kids? And the lady behind the register said, Jason, you come in all the time. Why does lady taking a picture of you, right? And she's like and she said, because he's changed the way 1000s and 1000s of black boys see themselves in the world. Now my children are grown, but they move differently because they had those books when they were young. Now this is something that I think about when I'm making something. Yes, it is 100%

Traci Thomas 46:58

100% How? How are you thinking about it? How is it informing the work that you do? It

Jason Reynolds 47:02

only informs the work in turn. It doesn't pull from my entertainment elements. It doesn't pull from any of the storytelling at all. It's just about my intention. It's just about knowing that like and I'm not trying to teach them anything. It's not that. It's just making sure that these books are made with a particular kind of intention and a particular kind of love and respect for their humanity, so that they know somebody in the world knows they're here and knows that they are just people, right? Just, it's amazing how many, how many black boys don't feel like people, right? Right? They feel like this other thing. They feel like, they feel like, you know, I met a bunch of black kids who went to this wealthy private school, and they all knew that they were just there for sports. They were aware that they were the side show they were they were to be carted around when it was time to show perspective, perspective parents, that they were the diversity, that it was a diverse school. They were fully aware of those things at 1415, years old, my job is to say you are more than a basketball you're more than a rodeo, right? That's it,

Traci Thomas 48:06

right, right? Okay, this is like such a hard shift. There's a few things in the book that I want to talk about. Specifically. One is that neons mother has an extremely intense bath and shower routine, and that's your bath and shower

Jason Reynolds 48:22

I forgot that. I forgot, you know that, first of all,

I was reading the book in the bath, literally, like,

she doesn't have this, yeah, she doesn't have the mini broom, yeah?

Traci Thomas 48:36

But she showers, baths, showers, which is like, how long approximately, does that take you? The whole thing? Yeah. Shower, bath, shower, sweep comes later, dry, yeah.

Jason Reynolds 48:48

So for people who don't know what we're talking about, the sweeping people like, what does it mean by sweep? So I'm a person who has a really intense bath regimen. I really enjoy the bathtub. I take a bath every day, sometimes twice a day. And I use all of the bad salts and flowers and all kinds. I really spoil myself. I gotta love on me, you know what I mean? Okay? But, but in order to clean the bathtub, you got to let all those flowers and pieces of sandalwood, they all have to dry, and then you have to, then I sweep them up with a broom. But yes, all of this takes the shower bath. Shower takes, I don't know, 45 an hour, that's all, oh yeah, because I'm taking a quick

Traci Thomas 49:27

shower bath for like, 90 minutes. Occasion, because I turn the water so hot when I start that I can barely even get in. And I kind of, like, squat, and I'm like, reading my squatty, and then I'll like, Get up and, like, stand up, and then, like, take my legs out, because I wanted to stay hot enough for me to read. Because usually when I have to, I mean, I love taking a bath, but usually if I'm reading in the bath, it's because I am on a deadline and I cannot focus anywhere else. So I'm like, phones away, book in the bath. Bath. And I'm like, I will stay here for as long as possible. But I'm also such a slow reader that that usually gets me, like, maybe 60 pages, maybe. And so I need, I need an extended bath period. But I do not shower, bath, shower. Yeah,

Jason Reynolds 50:13

yeah. I gotta shower bash. First of all, I read in the bath suit. That's where I read as well, just so you know, that's like, my team. It's the only place I can really focus and concentrate. I have to show a bad shower just because, because I just feel gross. So, like, I had to, like, shower first, then get in the bath, clean and then, but, but I've still been sitting in myself, and I've got flowers all over me, and so I have to shower again. I

Traci Thomas 50:36

hate the flowers I can't get. I don't like all the I like an Epsom salt. I like about I like, a I'm okay with a bubble, and I like the, like, bath bombs, that. But I don't like when there's like animal,

Jason Reynolds 50:47

like produce in it. Everything has to go in. Me roses,

Speaker 1 50:52

I'm in the bath. I'm not in the wilderness. Okay? I don't need vegetation. Sometimes

Jason Reynolds 50:55

you sometimes you need to feel exotic. It feels like you're in like, some amazing Island, amen to each their own. I

Traci Thomas 51:02

love I love this for you. I love that we share the bath. But of course, differently. And then the other thing that comes up in the book is this conversation. It's very short, but of course, it got my imagination going about Denzel Washington needing to do romance movies, yeah, yeah, or rom coms, yeah.

Jason Reynolds 51:18

I mean, he really, he really. He has Mississippi masala, okay? And he has one other, yeah, and he has one other, like, just true love I can't remember what it is at the moment, but one other, like true love story, but is in Washington on I'm like, everybody love Denzel Washington. Denzel Washington. Don't love

Traci Thomas 51:38

nobody. That's true. Do you think that doing a like? Do you think that you cannot be like one of the greats without doing it like? Do you think that that's part of, yeah, it's got to be part of be top tier.

Jason Reynolds 51:53

No, because then, first of all, Denzel is, is, come on, like, I can't be like Denzel Washington. I'm never going to disrespect Denzel Washington. That being said, that being said, there is something in a really good love story, specifically in a movie, there is something about the subtlety of acting, yeah, that requires such a such a deft hand that I know he's capable of, probably better than most that I would love. I just would have loved to have seen him in that space. Like, yeah, what does Denzel Washington look like courting a woman,

Traci Thomas 52:31

right? But

Jason Reynolds 52:32

like in a way that feels true and like feels honest, but also feels, what does he look like in a quiet film period,

Traci Thomas 52:41

right? Well, I think you know, this is sort of to our bigger conversation about, like masculinity and black boys, but also masculinity, masculinity broadly is he came up as an actor in a time where you were either like a serious actor or you were like a love story actor, right? Like Al Pacino, you know, Scent of a Woman is as close as we get, like Robert De Niro, like they're not doing those kinds of movies because, like, that's not what serious men do. And Denzel sort of comes up after that, before there's this transition to like the Matthew McConaughey, where you can be like a serious actor, but also you can do How to Lose a Guy in 10 days, right? Like that. We've had a cultural transition and what is possible for men to do, and Denzel sort of the end of that era, because Will Smith comes up, you know, in that next generation, and he does love stories, and like he does hitch, and he's more of a comedic actor, and he's sort of pushing up back against that, trying to become a serious actor. But there is a shift culturally and like what a real actor does versus what, like casual actors do,

Jason Reynolds 53:46

I don't disagree. What about Tom Hanks? He's done everything. What about Tom Hanks and everything? He's done everything, but

Traci Thomas 53:52

he is the anomaly, right? Don't you think maybe,

Jason Reynolds 53:55

but I bet if I thought there's probably a few more than, though, like

Traci Thomas 54:00

Richard Gere, maybe Richard Gere, Richard beer, I don't think of him as being, he

Jason Reynolds 54:06

was never, he was never a movie Yeah, he was never like that kind of movie star, uh, Did Brad? Ever did Brad and Tom, I mean, Clooneys done it, Clooneys done it. Clooney. Clooney has done it. He he's done oceans, 11 and all of those films. Then he's done the one where he those are love stories, no? But then he's done like the one where he's the flight attendant, oh,

Traci Thomas 54:27

the he's not the flight attendant, he's the frequent flyer. Yeah,

Jason Reynolds 54:31

the frequent flyer, yeah. I

Traci Thomas 54:33

feel like Denzel hasn't been zeal, done movies like that. No, I'm trying to think of him in like any smaller I guess he never does. He doesn't

Jason Reynolds 54:43

do quiet films. Neither does Sam. I mean, yeah, I would love to see Sam Jackson try his best to basically be in a quiet film where he is trying to love someone. That's it, yes,

Traci Thomas 54:57

like, what was that movie with um Alex? Like Baldwin and Meryl Streep, something's got to give. We need we need black. Something's got to give. This is

Jason Reynolds 55:08

my argument that we never get those movies. We don't get the notebook. We don't get, I mean, and I could argue, we could argue the photograph was sort of in that space, right? That's Easter, that's Easter's joint. So, like, but, but but like, we don't really get and everybody I know people gonna listen be like, What about loving basketball and love Jones? I feel like those movies, though they were very important to us, and I'm never gonna I never like they were very important to us. They still required the trope of, like, something real bad has to happen. There has to be this moment of like, Travis, right? And then we'll, then we'll find our way back to each other, right? But there's never just a story where it's like, yeah, this is an exploration of love. That's it. What

Traci Thomas 55:48

about like, the best man?

Jason Reynolds 55:50

He cheated he I know I

Traci Thomas 55:53

don't remember these movies well, because I just remembered, like, the happy ending kind of thing, and then I loved them. He slept

Jason Reynolds 55:58

with his man's girl. Like,

Traci Thomas 56:01

that's true.

Jason Reynolds 56:03

It's always less. He

Traci Thomas 56:05

wasn't the best man. Maybe he was an okay guy,

Jason Reynolds 56:10

right? But we never get like, a film that feels like, I mean, like, where is our, even, even just, you can even think about titles like, where's our When Harry Met Sally?

Traci Thomas 56:23

Sure, sure. Like, where I hate that movie? Fair now that I hate that movie fair,

Jason Reynolds 56:28

but fair, but where is that film? Like to think that we don't, first of all, to think that we don't have, I don't know I have same with like Annie John, you know, I know we can't talk about old boy anymore. What's his name? Woody, Woody Allen. But, oh, yeah. But same with like, Annie John, which I love. The first time I saw because I think Annie Hall, Annie Hall, Annie Hall. I think Annie John is what? Oh, that's Gwendolyn Brooks. I was like, What is Annie John? Annie Hall, where, what's her name? Who wear the suit jackets?

Traci Thomas 56:59

Meg, Ryan, Diane Keaton Oh, my God, I love her. That's

Jason Reynolds 57:03

what I'm saying. And I know we have Diane Keatons in the black communities. Okay, so

Traci Thomas 57:07

do you want to hear a funny story about this when I was an actor? So one of the things you have to do when you go to acting school is, like, you have to learn how to be an actor, which I was terrible at. But you also have to learn how to sell yourself as an actor. And I always you have to give like, comps, like how you doing books, like, when you go to an audition or whatever, you know you are, like a casting director, you might tell them, like, I want to have this career. Like, this is where I see myself. And I always use Diane Keaton because I think that I am Diane Keaton esque. But I would always get pushback from my teachers, being like, well, you need to have, like, a black comp too, but I'm like, but I might just be the black I just that is me, like, I'm not sexy, but I'm like, quirky, and I'm funny, and I'm like, you know, I'm a little goofy, but also, like, smart and, like, whatever, all of these things that I feel like are So Diane Keaton and my body is weird, like her, like, all of those things, but we don't have a diet black thing. This is what I quit the industry so you'll never see

Jason Reynolds 58:00

like, what is the love what is like is, is when it is IO or debris turn for love story. Will the will the other person across from her be a black man? Right? And if not, then my question is, why not? Why can't? Why can't a woman like Iowa debris, who is quirky? She could be our black Diane. Yeah, she's quirky. She's, I actually find her to be hot, you know, I mean, like, she's got an interesting, she's got, it's like a thing there, and what, and why can't she be across the table from some, some black man who, and it's just a beautiful love story about their their thing,

Traci Thomas 58:37

right? Write it, I might. But

Jason Reynolds 58:40

then the Hollywood was gonna say, okay, but at some point somebody's gotta get shot, right?

Traci Thomas 58:47

Comes in and cheats on.

Jason Reynolds 58:48

Somebody gotta get shot in this movie.

Traci Thomas 58:52

Right, right, right, right. Um, okay, we're still, of course, out of time. You've done this so many times. I don't have to ask you about snacks, unless you have a new snack that

Jason Reynolds 58:59

you eat. No, you know, I

Traci Thomas 59:01

know snacks. I know such bullshit. You're the only person who think gets away with that answer. Now someone's like, I don't need snacks. I'm like, think harder, dig a little deeper. No waste of my time when it comes to snacks. Just like, such a waste. It's so embarrassing for you, because you're basically perfect. And then there's just this one part of you that is such a failure to me.

Jason Reynolds 59:22

I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I told you my theory I love snacks. That's why I don't have them.

Traci Thomas 59:30

Okay, just because we need some joy in our life. If you were to go on a just Jason does snacks, yeah, like, you like, not because I know you're not going to, but if you were gonna give into your basis, snack feelings, yeah, what would you eat? What would be the perfect snack lineup for you? Barbecue

Jason Reynolds 59:51

potato chips. What brand any doesn't it doesn't even matter. I just love whatever that flavor is. Is, I love it. I love it regular and mesquite and honey. And honey, regular, Mesquite, okay, sweet, sweetish fish. I love Swedish.

Speaker 2 1:00:16

I just have my Swedish fish here, and then I also have a clean bag here without it. See,

Jason Reynolds 1:00:24

we're actually more alike than you even think. Well,

Traci Thomas 1:00:27

this is my problem, though, is that I don't deprive myself of my greatest joy in life, which is a Swedish Fish. Literally, on election night, Mr. Sax came home with a box of candies, all my favorites, and I couldn't even eat them because I was so depressed. I've

Jason Reynolds 1:00:44

also, I also, I also really like cakes and donuts. Birthday cake is the greatest thing ever invented, as far as and wedding

Traci Thomas 1:00:51

cake, like a store bought like a Safeway cake. Yeah, the

Jason Reynolds 1:00:55

absolute best. I love ice cream, every kind of ice cream I've had my nights at Jenny's, where I have Jenny's deliver all kind of crazy stuff over here. You know, I like, solid, okay,

Traci Thomas 1:01:06

if you, if you give in and you, like, have your night at Jenny's the next day. Are you one of those people that, like, throws it all away, or do you just, like, can you have it

Jason Reynolds 1:01:14

doesn't make it through the night? It doesn't make it through I eat the pint in a single sitting. Okay? It's like, what I'm saying, yeah? Like, I can't, I can't regulate very well. So and those you know, Trader Joe's makes those peanut butter pretzel bites.

Traci Thomas 1:01:27

Whoa, oh, yeah, yeah, I get those from Costco.

Jason Reynolds 1:01:34

First of all, shout out to you. Being a Costco Mom, that's wild, of course,

Speaker 2 1:01:37

okay, but I was also a Costco mom before I ever had kids. Costco is one of my favorite places, because

Jason Reynolds 1:01:42

you love gallon of mayonnaise, you need a gallon of kitchen.

Traci Thomas 1:01:46

Because I'm, I am, like, one of those people that loves to, like, organize things. So it's like, I need all these things so that I can then open it and then, like, put it in a smaller container. And once we redid the garage, half of the garage is like, all my books, like my office. Then the other part that you never see on Instagram is the cabinets, which are full of Costco related products and, like, Christmas decorations. It's

Jason Reynolds 1:02:07

ridiculous. Yeah, it's

Traci Thomas 1:02:09

very it's very intense. But as I am a Costco mom, I

go, we buy, like, the steaks, I individually wrap them, put them, because we now have a bonus freezer, because I'm, like, one of those

Jason Reynolds 1:02:16

people. You're really one of those people with a deep freezer. That's

Traci Thomas 1:02:19

amazing. I'm a bonus freezer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That, to me, is really a sign of, like, becoming a mom was, like, the bonus freezer. You're

Jason Reynolds 1:02:28

ridiculous, but I'm so happy for you

living the dream. Okay,

Traci Thomas 1:02:34

at least if I, oh, I guess I just have, I have two more questions, really. One is for people who, like, 24 seconds from now? Are there other things you would recommend to them that are in the same vein? No,

Jason Reynolds 1:02:48

great. Okay,

Traci Thomas 1:02:51

I'll let you off the hook with that one too. But the last one is, if you could require one person dead or alive to read the book, who would you want it to be?

Jason Reynolds 1:02:57

Oh, my father. I think, I think my father would read this book and be so proud because he was, because he was such an evolved man in so many in so many ways. He was so thoughtful, he was so affectionate, he was so honest about his about his fears and shortcomings. He was so confident in the things he was confident in, he made space for people. He loved his wife. He loved my mother, his ex wife as well. I think my father would read this book. I think he would have laughed because he right. He would recognize some of my own antics as a child. I think he would laugh. I think he would laugh, and I also think he would feel like he did all right, yeah, I love that. Yeah, that's

Traci Thomas 1:03:45

so good. Um, okay, everybody, you can get 24 seconds from now out in the world, wherever you get your books. Jason, thank you, as always, for coming here and talking to me, and thank you for writing the books, and also thanks for letting me just trash your snack takes at any anytime I want, brings me joy,

Jason Reynolds 1:04:02

anytime, buddy and I'm glad we got to do this, even though it comes after a tough time. At least. At least we got each other. It was nice to kind of laugh and joke with you about in this moment. At least.

Traci Thomas 1:04:13

Yeah, I agree. And everyone else we will see you in the stacks.

All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you again. So much to Jason Reynolds for joining the show and a huge thank you to Lisa more later for helping to make this conversation possible. Don't forget this next book club pick for November is luster by Raven Leilani, and we will be discussing that book on Wednesday, November 27 with Justine Kay.If you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack and check out my substack at tracithomas.substack.com. make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media@thestackspod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and @thestackspod_ on Twitter, and you can check out our website at thestackspodcast.com.this episode of the stats was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me Traci Thomas.

Megan Caballero
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Ep. 344 Unstable Attachment to Realism with Justine Kay