Ep. 344 Unstable Attachment to Realism with Justine Kay

Written By Megan Caballero

This week, we’re joined by Justine Kay, one of the hosts of the reality TV show podcast, 2 Black Girls, 1 Rose. We talk about our thoughts and feelings around optimism in the face of political anxieties and how reading has shaped our thinking about what is possible. We also dive into Justine’s newfound love of romance novels and revisit some of our favorite reality TV memories.

The Stacks Book Club pick for November is Luster by Raven Leilani. We will discuss the book on November 27th with Justine Kay returning as our guest.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

To support The Stacks and find out more from this week’s sponsors, click here.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:09

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I am thrilled to welcome Justine Kay to the show. Justine is my pal, but more than that, she is the co host of the very popular podcast two black girls, one rose, where she and her co host Natasha, share hilarious and unfiltered takes on reality TV culture and relationships. I invited Justine on today, not only because she is brilliant, but because I wanted to talk to the right person the day after the 2024 election. Justine and I talk a little bit about our state of mind going into the election, the power and possibility of optimism. And we also, of course, talk about the chaos of reality TV and some of the books that Justine loves. In case you missed the announcement, our book club pick for November is luster by Raven Leilani Justine will be back on Wednesday, November 27 to discuss the book with me, so be sure to read along and tune in. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, head over to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks. Pack for just $5 a month. You get to be part of the best bookish community. You get to be on our Discord. You get to come to our monthly virtual book club meetups. You get a bonus episode every month, and you get to know that by joining, you make it possible for me to make this show every single week. Also, as we come to the end of the year, we have some really exciting Patreon exclusive things like our mega challenge and stacky awards that are both coming your way. Another fun perk of the stacks pack is that you get a shout out on this very show. So shout out to our newest members, Sonia, Chrissy, Theresa, Debbie, Mitchell and Sarah. Thank you all so much. And for those of you who love the show, still want to support it, but maybe don't want to be part of a bookish community and have to go to virtual book to go to virtual book club meetups. I've got something for you. It's my newsletter. It's called unstacked, and you can find it at Traci thomas.substack.com it'll keep you up to date on what I've got going on my hot takes on books and pop culture, and it goes directly to your inbox. So subscribe to that by going to Traci thomas.substack.com All right, now it is time for my conversation with Justine Kay.

All right, everybody, welcome to the stacks. It is the day after the 2024 election, and we have no idea what's going on, because we're recording this on october 28 Monday, October 28 I brought to you a guest that I wanted to talk to on the day after the election. Because I wanted to bring someone that I felt like, no matter what happened last night or maybe is still happening right now, we can have a good time we can. We can just vibe out and maybe for the next hour, not feel the stress and anxiety of whatever the fuck is going on in this moment. So I brought you one of my favorite podcasters, one of my favorite people, just in general, my friend, one of the CO hosts of the two black girls, one rose podcast, the incomparable Justine. Kay. Justine, welcome to the sax.

Justine Kay 3:26

Oh my god, thanks, Traci. I'm so happy to be here. You guys talk about smart things over here.

Yeah, no, I'm excited.

Traci Thomas 3:33

No, we talk about the same dumb shit as everybody else. We just pretend we're smart because it's books. It's like you talk about reality TV. So it's hard. You have to, like people, like, assume it's like, low low brow. Low brow. I feel like you guys are pretty high brow for reality TV. Oh, thanks.

Justine Kay 3:49

We try, we try, but we also try to have, like, a lot of fun, because how could you not? Because

Traci Thomas 3:54

it's reality TV. I mean, I feel like we try to have a lot of fun here with books. And I can tell you that a lot of people cannot have fun around books. Yeah, yeah. I feel like I'm trying to be as lowbrow as humanly possible in the book space. Okay? For So, before we dive in, for people who don't know you, can you give them just like a little, a little backstory. Where are you from? How did you get to where you are currently? Yeah, give us a little Sure.

Justine Kay 4:22

So I yeah, I'm Justine. I am the co host of two black girls, one rose. I co host it with my best friend Natasha. We have been doing it for coming up on seven years this December, and we started the podcast because we watched Rachel Lindsay season of The Bachelorette, and we just didn't hear any of the other podcasters watching the shame the same show we were watching. It was really wild to listen to these white people recap podcasts and nothing happened. They just picked up on no signs and none of the nuances that we picked up on either. And then also, it didn't really sound like. Many of them were like friends. They really all gave co worker and but pretending to be friends, right? In which a lot of duos have that same energy, but we don't have that. We are actually friends. You guys went to high school together. You did went to high school together. We've known each other. We're coming up on now 20 years. And I was just telling her this weekend when I saw her, she is my life partner in a way that's so unique. Not a whole lot of people get a life partner like this. So it's exciting, it's nice, it's really nice. I'm

Traci Thomas 5:33

so jealous of you guys. I do this by myself. You guys, I mean, there's definitely parts about being a solo podcaster that I love, and I think work to my strengths as a control freak and, okay, terrible delegator. But sometimes, like, I just want to bounce an idea off of someone who's as invested in the thing as I am. Yeah, you know, like I come to you with things sometimes, like, Justine, what do you think of this? But and like, You are great, a great friend, and you help. But also, like, it's not the same. This is a war

Justine Kay 6:05

thing, right, right, right, yeah,

Traci Thomas 6:09

okay, let's talk to our future selves. Oh, okay. So today is Monday, October 28 it is like, eight days until the election, nine days till everyone is going to be hearing us talk right now. Yeah, yeah. What do we think? What are you feeling?

Justine Kay 6:25

Oh, my God. I am trying so hard to not think about it, because I don't want to be pessimistic, right? Okay, I also am fully expecting an insurrection

Traci Thomas 6:40

either way, either way, no matter what.

Justine Kay 6:42

Yeah, yeah. So it doesn't feel like this day, the November 6 day, is nearly as final as it usually has been my whole life growing up with elections.

Traci Thomas 6:55

Yeah, that's true. That's true, right?

Justine Kay 6:58

I am like,

Traci Thomas 6:59

I just, I can't stop thinking about everyone listening to this episode first thing, or at some point, you know, in the first few days, I just, it's been on this episode has been heavy on my mind. I want to say since August, since I realized when I was, like, booking the show, I was like, Oh, shit. This is gonna because, you know, my episodes drop at midnight, um, California time, so it's like, we're not gonna know. Oh, most people, like, we probably won't know. Yeah. I mean, I hope we know. I hope everyone listening to this, we're having celebratory mimosas at midnight or whatever, right? Like, I hope, I guess, not mimosas at midnight. But when you'd wake up in the morning and listen episode, I hope that you are episode, I hope that you are toasting to something wonderful. But I just am so. So anybody who's like, at home right now listening to this, who's like, feeling anxious, I'm, I'm preemptively anxious for us, yeah, but also, like, I wouldn't knock doors this weekend with my kids, all with your kids, yeah, I'm a, I'm an avid door knocker. I am a phone caller and a door knocker. It eases the anxiety for me. It does. It does, okay. It really does. Yeah. I mean, you get to talk to people. You get to meet people and be like, yeah. I mean, and like, at this late stage in the game, you're only talking to people who support, who you support. So it's real easy, but I, too, have fears of violence. Okay, let me ask you a little bit about optimism, because one of the things I've noticed in the last eight years, I guess, since 2016 since people were surprised by Hillary's loss in 2016 is this urge to preemptively be pessimistic, like, well, she's gonna lose or and in in this preemptive pessimism, it's sort of like I am saying that the bad thing is gonna happen, so that I'm not surprised. And then you live your whole life like feeling like, Well, I wasn't surprised, but you're like, living in a downer for everything. And I just feel like I just want to be optimistic. It's gonna hurt just as bad whether I'm right or I'm wrong. I would rather be wrong and, like, have a nice time believing in something good, being possible, then that like I was right, I I was right. I knew it's gonna happen, and so I'm not gonna, like, believe that anything else is possible. I don't know. Have you? Have you been thinking about this at all so

Justine Kay 9:30

so deeply, you actually touched on something that my therapist and I have been going really deeply into, which is my pessimistic side and my very, very like unstable attachment to realism. I have this attachment to realism, not in the ego way of saying that I was right, but in the way of I won't let myself down. Yes, and I'm doing this because I'm planning a wedding and I have a. Really hard time being celebrated, and it's getting it's it's just it's getting hard for me every single step of the way. And a lot of really great things are happening for me and Natasha right now, she just bought a house. I'm getting married, so we just have a lot of great stuff. We had a great live show recently, and I still am like waiting for this other shoe to drop in a way that I can protect myself,

Traci Thomas 10:26

do you? Can you not enjoy the good things while they're happening to you? I

Justine Kay 10:29

have a really hard time with it, really thinking that I deserve it. I have a really hard time with

Traci Thomas 10:34

that. Oh yes, I think I deserve nothing that that I can really feel, I don't see, I don't consider myself an optimist, really at all, but I think that I am more optimistic than I think that I am. I think so too. I just really enjoy enjoying things. I like to feel good, and so I'm gonna, like, lean into any opportunity to, like, have a nice time. Yeah, I mean, so I'll say this in 2016 and everyone's going to be like, everybody says this. I really did know that Donald Trump was going to win. I was the only person I think that it was like me and like Donald Trump, we were the two people who knew, because, like, I called my brother that day, and I was like, you know Brady. And he was like, Traci, you're being ridiculous. And I was like, ah, and like, I knew, and it still fucking sucked big donkey dick, okay? Like it didn't protect protect me in any way, shape or form, from the pain and the suffering of the revelation that I was right. I did not. Usually, when I'm right, it feels great. I love, I love, and I told you so moment, this one did not. And so this time around, well, I'm not sure what will happen, and I don't think it's useful to prognosticate at this point, since everyone will know more than we know at this time, I'm just leaning into it. I mean, we got a black girl running for office, and not only a black girl, but in my case, she's mixed. She's from where I'm from, you know, I mean, I don't agree with her on a lot of stuff, but, like, she's out here, she's looking good every day. The

Justine Kay 12:13

face is beat the glam team. I want the interview. So team,

Traci Thomas 12:19

I want the hookup I need. I need some eyeliner. Sometimes I need a nice glittery eye, bright, bright, lifted, yeah, she

Justine Kay 12:29

always does look. She

Traci Thomas 12:30

looks great. The monochromatic suits she is, you know, we talk about representation matters. If this is mattering to me, yeah,

Justine Kay 12:38

I agree with you. I think the one question I would have for her, if I got a chance to sit down with her, is her access to her eternal joy and optimism, because I've seen this race of black girl running against mid to low white man, low level white, low level white, and the white is Usually just comes out. I thought, just because he's relatable, you know, just because he's like, life better, you know, like, I've seen that race so many times, and if I've seen it so many times, I can't imagine how many times she's seen it, yeah, and she still is like, No, I'm gonna win. Yeah, here's beyond. You're welcome. Like, she's

Traci Thomas 13:18

maybe because she has won, right, she has won her political races. She is the fucking vice president. Like, I always die when people like, she's not qualified. I'm like, bitch. What is qualified, if not the person who has a literal job as next in line? Like, what other qualifications are there for president, besides having been President, I don't know. Vice President, like, what, like, what is a qualification at this point? But maybe because she has one, I don't know. I think, like, we're both black women, we both have had to compete against the most mid, low level white ever. And like, there is joy for me in the competition. There is joy for me in the going out and being like, I know I look good right now. Like, I know I'm doing this. And like, you know I can only I can know everything I know about systemic racism. I can know everything I know about, like, white mediocrity, but at a certain point you just have to go out there and like, do your thing. Yeah,

Justine Kay 14:23

that's so true. Your Podcast obviously has helped me so much with reading about white supremacy, patriarchy, I just dove into a fat phobia reading list this morning from your post this morning, and knowing the root of all of those secondary feelings that I have, anger, jealousy, pessimism. Knowing the root of those is really, really important to my root to optimism.

Traci Thomas 14:48

I think you know what? I actually think you're really right. Because I think that I've become more optimistic the more I've started reading about like abolition, whether it's like prison abolition or like environmental justice, like all of. These things are all sort of like under this big abolition category. And I think this idea of like, what is possible, what our imaginations can, like lead us toward, is really exciting to me. And like makes me feel hopeful, like that there is a different way that we could be doing this, even if we're not doing the different way, like we could be, it exists, it's possible. And I think that helps.

Justine Kay 15:24

I think, no, I think so too. I think so. I'll

Traci Thomas 15:27

tell you a crazy story. Last night, after I knocked doors with my kids, I went to my god sisters house, and she's got a 13 year old daughter, and her daughter has these two super cute 13 year old identical twin girls. They're Latina. Obviously, we all live in California. And I was talking to my niece, and I was like, What do you think of the election? And she's like, I like Kamala. And I was like, Well, why? You know, like, trying to, like, be like, a teacher, like, why? And my niece was like, because she's gonna help women's rights. And I was like, Wow, incredible answer. You got it right. Congratulations. Yeah. So then I turned to the twins, and I'm like, what about you guys? And they're like, you're not gonna like our answer. And I said, What? And he said, we like Trump, okay, and our parents like Trump, okay? And I was like, Okay, well, why? And they were like, the economy. They were like, interest rates were lower. I'm like, you're 13. What do you mean? I'm

Justine Kay 16:23

like, What do you mean a Connie,

Traci Thomas 16:24

what do you mean interest rates? So we get into this whole conversation and like, they start telling me about, you know, people who get handouts and want to work at McDonald's, and how they need to work harder, and all this stuff. And I was like, Listen. I was like, You guys are 13. You don't know a lot. You haven't even learned about the Supreme Court and government class yet. Like, you don't even know how this shit works, right? And, like, I certainly didn't, and the fact that they knew anything about interest rates at 13, I was like, You guys are gonna be fine. I said to them. I said, I know you two are smart. I know you're gonna be fine. I know that you don't know a lot, and that's okay. I said I'm not worried about you, but what I really hope that you two will do is start to think about what you would like for yourself and the world and the country that you will one day be in charge of. I was like me and my sister. We're old, we're done, we're washed. We're just trying to do the best we can to make sure you guys and our kids are gonna be okay. But like, you guys can shape whatever this thing is. And I was talking about possibility in all of this, and I was like, really, you know, doing my thing, sermonizing to these poor girls. And they were like, Yeah, but none of that can happen. It's not like everybody can just, like, make a million dollars. And I was like, Sure, but like, there are other versions where people have what they need. That doesn't mean that it's like, I was just like, everything's not about money, right? Like, right? I was like, maybe you don't need a million dollars if all your health care is taken care of, right? And the one girl was like, Well, do you really think that things would be better under Kamala Harris? And I was like, yeah, yeah. I

Justine Kay 18:03

really, I really do. And then she was like, Are you a communist? No. And I was like, I mean, no, but I'm not, not a communist.

Traci Thomas 18:19

I mean, it was just, like, such a crazy conversation, but it was just a good reminder to me that, like, all of this stuff, all of this, like politics stuff, it certainly matters. But also, like, if we're not teaching our kids how to dream bigger and like, visualize a world that they can create and like, have that optimism because they can see something that is better than what they have. Like, that was the part that was scary to me. When they were like, well, that none of that can happen. I was like, No, it can. I was like, it can. Things change all the time, yeah, like in our lifetimes. Yeah, right. Like, my dad was born in 1935 Wow. Okay, he's not obviously, he's no longer alive, but he lived till 2012 so he lived from he his family left Jim Crow Louisiana, moved to California. Yep, he my dad saw the murder of Emmett Till Yeah. He saw voting rights, the Vietnam War. He saw World War Two. He saw all of these things. He saw the first black president. Like that was all within one person's lifetime, right? Yeah, so I'm just like, I want the kids to believe there's something better I

Justine Kay 19:27

know. I want them to and I want them to know also. Well, they don't know because they're 13, but the four years 2016, to 2020, was rough. We were hearing that man talk every single day. Okay? I know I can't either, and for four years later, I don't hear Joe talk at all. Never really listen to him that often, and it's been wonderful, and I feel very taken care of. There are a bunch of very small. Things that have helped not only me, but I always say I also vote for Justine, who was like working at the host to stand at the restaurant in Manhattan, like I vote for her right more than me, because she's trying harder than I am, right, better,

Traci Thomas 20:14

right? You know,

Justine Kay 20:15

I vote for my co host, who just bought a house. You know, I'm I'm voting for not just me, right? I would love for them to feel like that.

Speaker 1 20:24

That's what I told them. I said there's more than just money and just you. Yeah. I'm like, there's more than your money, than your wallet. Also, you're 13, you don't even have money. That was what was crazy to me. That is crazy. I was like, Don't you care about like, birds in the environment, like something that you actually deal with every day. They were like, no interest rates. Oh my God, it was filed. I love that you're like the president you never hear from. I'm just thinking presidents, like children should be seen and not heard

Justine Kay 20:52

and not heard.

Traci Thomas 20:56

Okay, speaking of people who should be seen and not heard, we're gonna totally transition the people on reality television.

Justine Kay 21:03

Oh, man,

Speaker 2 21:07

okay, I want you guys started doing the Bachelor and The Bachelorette, but now you do. Love is blind, yep, Married at First Sight. Sometimes, sometimes housewife stuff. Sometimes, housewives,

Justine Kay 21:21

yeah, definitely.

Traci Thomas 21:22

What is the most enjoyable show for you all to cover

Justine Kay 21:26

absolutely love is blind.

Traci Thomas 21:28

And what about the bachelor? Where does that rank on your

Justine Kay 21:31

so here's the thing with the bachelor. Now for me, right, as like a grown about to be 35 year old woman, oh, my God, you're so young. To me, it's an exercise in improv and comedy, because at this point I have to look at it from a comedic lens, yes, because otherwise, if I take it too seriously, I can get too bogged down in it, and I can get too worried about stuff, and I got to and that's not fun. And we like to, like keep it fun over here. You know, God bless the game of roses, who are like coaching people. And yes, they have their own language, and they take it like, really serious, right, which is admirable, in a way. We don't do that over here. No, I can do that. So it's a really great improv class.

Traci Thomas 22:16

Was there a season for you where it went from being like, more earnest, taking it seriously, to it becoming more of like camp comedy for you.

Justine Kay 22:26

Oh my gosh. I think the season. Oh my gosh. When did that happen? Uh, after, honestly, after Matt James. Because Matt James was the most serious one? Oh, my

Traci Thomas 22:42

god, yeah, I think that season broke the bachelor. It really did. It did because we had Rachel KKK canal

Speaker 2 22:51

still together. Remember

Speaker 1 22:55

the season started with that sit down with Matt James and Chris Harrison, where he was like, Chris, I'm worried I like white girls. And Chris was like, It's okay, my brother, yeah. And I was like, this is not, not the how we want to start. I feel

Justine Kay 23:12

like he looked dead in the camera to my face. And was like, I'm not picking no black girl, yeah. So give up that dream now, yeah,

Traci Thomas 23:18

for sure. Yeah. Yeah. That season that, that was a hard one, yeah. And that had the fallout with Rachel Lindsay and Chris Harrison. That was just like, so dramatic. The whole thing, the most dramatic season ever, ever. And then, oh my god. And then we got a manual ocho out of that.

Justine Kay 23:37

The worst, the worst of all times, emotional Butler. Emotional Butler. Out of it, which

Speaker 1 23:43

is probably the best thing ever. Yeah, yes, that's what Van leaf and called him on van and Rachel's show. I'm gonna, I'm definitely linking to this episode of this fight between them on in the show notes, because if you have not listened to this conversation, I go back and listen sometimes, just, just for fun. Oh, yeah, once a year, yeah, it's, it's like a it's like an annual tradition. You know, Mariah Carey says, after Halloween, it's time, yeah? I said, after Thanksgiving, it's time. Let us be thankful to Emmanuel acho stupidity. Um, love is blind. Is great, yeah? Except I hate the weddings.

Justine Kay 24:20

Oh my god, the weddings are it's the

Traci Thomas 24:23

worst episode. The show starts off so good, and by the time you get to the weddings, they used to actually have the weddings, and you didn't know what people were gonna say, but now they all break up before the wedding. I'm like, Um, hello. Just do it at the altar, you assholes.

Justine Kay 24:37

I know. I know, because I loved the the absolute gaggery of like, deep, deep, breaking up with shake at the altar. Yes, that was so fabulous. Yeah, breaking up with

Traci Thomas 24:51

call my enemy in the

Justine Kay 24:53

end, oh, my God,

Traci Thomas 24:56

I hated call so much. And people would be like, up in my shit. Yeah. Oh yeah. Like, cold. I'm like, You guys are blinded by the baby blues. Okay? He's a fucking emotional terrorist. He's mean. He's nasty. She was mean too, but he was manipulative. Yep, he was fucked up and he was fat shaming her all over the place,

Justine Kay 25:15

all over the place, called her a nine out of 10, called the other girl, Colleen a 10 out of 10. That shit was absolutely crazy.

Speaker 1 25:22

That was crazy. Imagine your fiance being like you're a nine out of 10, and then actually saying someone else is a 10 out of 10 to you.

Justine Kay 25:34

Ugh. Boots, wearing leggings, old Lulu Lemon leggings, wearing girl like

Traci Thomas 25:40

she was a professional ballerina, though she was. Yeah, she was so props to Colleen for making the dream work, because only, like seven girls in the history of the world have ever been ballerinas. I know because I would have liked to be one of those. No, I was never going to be a ballerina. Way too intense that you did. What was the dance I started as in ballet, as most children do, but I, I had a very intense ballet teacher as a child, and she made it clear that I'm not, might not need to have that particular dream.

Justine Kay 26:11

Wait me too. Yeah. Wow. But

Traci Thomas 26:15

my, my ballet teacher was a passing black woman, oh, so it was, like, deep self loathing, yeah,

Justine Kay 26:25

yeah,

Traci Thomas 26:26

she was, she wasn't like, Oh, I'm not black. But like, she did not talk about being black, and people, I think, didn't know what she was, uh huh,

Justine Kay 26:35

and she'd like to sit in, I'm sure, in that spot, yeah.

Traci Thomas 26:41

Okay, you told me to ask you what you read pre show. Yes, I didn't. What do you pre live show or pre show in general?

Justine Kay 26:51

Pre live show, and then pre show in general? Okay,

Traci Thomas 26:54

tell me about it.

Justine Kay 26:55

I'll start with the live show. With the live show. I only listen to music with no words. It's really important for me to listen to stuff with no words. Okay,

Traci Thomas 27:04

what kind of music with no words? Like what I listened to?

Justine Kay 27:07

A lot of, oh my gosh, I don't know how to pronounce his name. Arturo, the something he makes a classic Italian like, classical album. A lot of like Miles Davis, a lot of like, Bill Davis trio, like, a lot just classic jazz music, wow, yeah. And then I was reading the message coats on the way to the on the way to the show, and that was important, because it was just important for me to, like, see the world bigger,

Traci Thomas 27:42

right? So we really got there to, like, talk about love is blind. Were you? Like, also the role of a journalist the Palestinian people and I booked banning in South Carolina.

Justine Kay 27:57

Like, Oh, I got to page 19, but I was just thinking, because in the first couple of pages, he talked so much about, like, the artistry of storytelling, I just felt really prepared to stand up there and talk about little low, Crazy Love is blind.

Traci Thomas 28:15

You know, I'm sure ta nehisi Coates would be so thrilled to know that his book has changed how you approach Love is blind.

I'm sure when he wrote that he had you, when he said comrades in the book, that's what he had in mind. You doing Love is blind. Live show. What about before, just

the regular shows? Do you do? Like, do you have, like, a pre show warm up that you do we do? Well, we

Justine Kay 28:40

have a warm up where we just Kiki in the beginning. It's usually like a solid 20 minutes that we're just sitting there laughing about our weekend. But I have been reading so many romance novels. I know I went through these romance novels. Thanks to you for starting off this train. Well, everyone listening

Traci Thomas 28:56

is gonna laugh because they know I don't really read no romance, but I have to shout out my friend Jess, because she is part of the stacks pack. She's like the romance girly. I go to Jess anytime I need a romance recommendation for myself or for others. And so Jess, she's at literary intersections on Instagram for folks who are looking for romance recommendations. So she has helped. I can't really take credit. I've just been the sort of conduit between the two,

Justine Kay 29:21

but I've been reading those, and we've been doing them for our pre show. My like review of them, because some of them are fantastic. Herbert girl summer was, like, amazing. I felt like I jumped into the characters, skin and bones. And then some of them are awful, yeah, yeah. Like, so bad. Yeah, yeah. One of them most recently that I got the best laugh out of Natasha. I was so happy. It was about primal play. Have

Traci Thomas 29:45

you heard of this before? No, but I think you talked about this on the show, right? Sure did.

Justine Kay 29:49

Yeah. It's when people bark like a dog and meow like a cat running around barefoot, and that's like their foreplay. And it. Goes on for a very long time. There's nicknames, there's like, all kinds of things. And there was no indication that this book was going to be about that

Traci Thomas 30:07

I see. So it was a surprise. Primal play, like in the book had been called, like, primal play, you would have been like, okay,

Justine Kay 30:14

even a little, a little forward, yeah, a little something like, Hey, this is what we're going to be discussing. Nope, cold, cold, open. What

Traci Thomas 30:21

was the book about?

Justine Kay 30:23

Oh, my God. It was so many storylines. It was about a turn in the air, okay?

Traci Thomas 30:29

Because it was also that dance, okay, we love it. We love a Jate in the air. My god, oh,

Justine Kay 30:36

they said it so many times. So it was about this Jamaican ballet dancer, okay? Who needed immigration? Okay, to so and needed, like, papers to stay in the US, because his brother was in jail, drug dealer, right? Okay, okay, wow. So

Traci Thomas 30:52

overwhelmed. Okay.

Justine Kay 30:55

So while he's staying there, obviously he makes friends with the local dance studio. So they're like a quadruple friends, right? And then the girl who he marries is also a young lady who designs video games in her spare time from designing the video games, she gets women out of domestic violence situations,

Traci Thomas 31:17

oh my gosh. So she's creative and an activist, yeah? Yep, yep, okay,

Justine Kay 31:22

someone starts stalking her from one of the domestic violence situations. Oh, yeah. And it just happens to be that one of the husband's brother's friends is the owner of a sex club that the owner of the dance studio also goes to. Wow, we have a whole all these storylines, all these separate story lines going on. This book was only 234 pages.

Traci Thomas 31:46

Wow. That author had all of that up in the air,

Justine Kay 31:51

just up there. Wow, incredible. Okay, we're

Traci Thomas 31:55

gonna take a quick break, and then we're gonna come back and talk a lot more about books. I'm thanks. All right, we're back before we get into your reading life, we do this thing on the show called Ask the stacks, where someone emails me for book recommendations. They email ask the stacks at the stacks podcast.com so person listening at home, you should definitely do that so you can get your recommendations on air. This one is from someone named Ashley. Ashley says, I am writing to you on behalf of my mother in law, Martha. She has advanced Parkinson's and spends a lot of time reading as it is, in an activity she not only enjoys, but one she can enjoy safely. She enjoys fiction, especially historical fiction, but she reads non fiction also. I'm sure you cannot relate, but two authors that come to mind that she loves are Kristen, Hannah and Elena Ferrante. She loves all things British and Australian. Enjoys Family Sagas. I would be so curious to see these interests of hers translate into a non fiction recommendation. So I obviously prepared. I have three recommendations for Martha, but you should think, if you can come up with any, you only have to do one. Okay, I can go first, if you'd like, okay, Ashley, you're correct. I cannot relate to loving Kristen Hannah and Elena Ferrante, in fact, I've never read either, so I have no clue what that means, except for I have a general sense. I don't know that your mother in law will like these, but I'm gonna try. So the first one I'm gonna give you is a book that I recommended to my own mother in law, which is called the Anthropocene, reviewed by John Green. It's a collection of essays where John Green goes through different things from the Anthropocene, our current geological age, and he reviews them things like sunsets and Canada geese and queerty from the keyboard. Oh, he reviews them on a scale from one to five stars, and it is so lovely and heartwarming and funny and smart and well written, and it is just such a joy. I loved it. My mother in law loved it, and I don't know that Martha will particularly love it, but it does have so many different facets and things to be interested in and curious about, and because they're like these little sweet essays, it's just like a really enjoyable read. I definitely think it's like a comfort read for a moment, like right now. So that's my first one. My second one is probably, I would guess, gonna be the most successful of my three recommendations, which is called all the frequent trouble of our days by Rebecca donner. The book is about this woman who was part of the resistance against the Nazis in Germany. She was American, and it's just this really interesting story, sort of of like spies and like obviously, resistance. Sting fascism, and it's really cool and has lots of twists and turns. And it is, it feels like historical fiction in a lot of ways, though, it is actually just real life history. They have a plot to like assassinate Hitler in there. It's a famous plot. People will be familiar with it if you if you read the book. Also, in this vein, I would say, like Eric Larson's in the garden of beasts is sort of a similar kind of book. And then my final, my third and final, which actually maybe this will be my most successful because this is actually just historical fiction, which is, if you leave me by Crystal Hana Kim. It's about a young woman during in Korea during the time of the Korean War, who is in a love triangle, and it's really sweet. And I love this book, and we did it on book club the first year of this podcast. And I still think about the book all the time. I just loved it. It's like, really, I was surprised how much I loved it. I loved the characters. The writing is really beautiful. The story was unlike anything I'd read before. And so I think, I think Martha is going to be happy with all three of those, but I don't think they're exactly what you asked for, Ashley. But you know what? When have I ever followed a direction? You're not the boss of me. Okay, Justine, what do you have? Anything? Yes,

Justine Kay 36:13

I do. Okay, I have one of my favorite historical non fiction. Want to say this is considered a biography, okay, called Once upon a secret by Mimi Alford. I don't know this. This is about her affair with JFK. Oh, 18 years old and intern. We

Traci Thomas 36:31

love a mess.

Justine Kay 36:33

I love it. Love it. I think that's my favorite part about historical anything is all the stuff that was covered up and then all the people who wrote all of these nasty details after these books, but Mimi writes about how three days into going to the White House, she was like, pulled into his office and pulled into the press office and had this long affair with JFK, very emotionally involved with him. And it is really intense, but in a way that you're like, Damn Mimi, you're not involved at all. You're not putting yourself in anything, anybody's shoes. It's just you observing from the outside. So it can be very escapist in the same way. Okay,

Traci Thomas 37:13

I love this, Ashley. Please let us know if your mother in law reads any of these books. Let us know what she thinks. And for folks at home, if you want to get a recommendation, on air, email, ask the stacks at the stacks podcast.com, okay, Justine, first and foremost, let's start where we always start. What is two books you love and one book you hate? Ooh,

Justine Kay 37:37

I can't wait to talk about the one I hate. Oh, my

Traci Thomas 37:40

God, I love you. This is why we're friends. Everybody's always like, I don't hate any books. And I'm like, what I listen that's my reaction every time I try to be respectful. But on the inside, I'm literally just like, fuck you. Yes, you do. They're like, I don't finish books I hate. I'm like, fuck you. You know you finished it, and you know you want to talk about it, but your friend probably wrote it. Yeah, yeah,

Justine Kay 38:01

oh, please. Well, okay, I'm gonna do two of my favorite books. One is a long time, one is a short time. Long time has to be dessert. Person by Claire saffitz, I

Traci Thomas 38:15

don't know this. I don't

Justine Kay 38:19

know it. Okay. Claire saffitz, one of my all time favorite chefs. She was big on the Bon Appetit YouTube channel, yes, yes,

Traci Thomas 38:27

yes. This is a cookbook. Okay, yes, okay. I know this. I know this, yeah.

Justine Kay 38:31

She was one of my all time favorites from Bon Appetit, which was my Roman Empire for years old Bon Appetit, right after that she came out with this genius book called dessert person. And Claire is a very, very smart lady, and so she has, like, a diagram of all the recipes. All of the recipes now have, like, very sentimental value to me, because I've made them in very sentimental moments in my life. And I just, she has a lot of video too. She does a lot of, like, just really great demonstration. There's beautiful images in the book. It's just a great, all around great cookbook. And then the other book that I love this summer was Curvy Girl summer, which I already mentioned, yeah, best romance novel I've ever read, I want to say, and yeah, just puts you into this, like, really lovely, empowering moment that this Kirby woman has for her summer, and great sex scenes too. So if you're into that, we love a good I love a good sex scene. Yeah, definitely. I hate is the guest by Emma Klein. Oh,

Traci Thomas 39:44

you okay.

There's listeners at home from the stacks who are obsessed with this answer, because I know a lot of people hate this book. Talk about it, but a lot of people love it.

Justine Kay 39:54

A lot of people love it, which is why I read it. One of the people who love it, I love Quinn. To Brunson, oh, she said that she wanted to make it into a TV show. And I said, Oh, my God. Well, I have to read it now if Quinton wants to make it into a TV show. So I read it, and I was horrified by the end at how despicable Emma was to to to these characters, to the reader. It was so there was no character development, no you he had nobody to root for, either. So it felt kind of hard to like keep going. But you want to keep going because you want to see what happened the end and then

Traci Thomas 40:31

the end was plateau, flat. Emma, you bitch.

How dare you? Emma, the plateau. Okay, I didn't ask you this before. What kind of reader Are you? How did you get into reading? Have you always read? Have you always loved books? Cues give us sort of a sense of like, what do you like to read more broadly? Yeah,

Justine Kay 40:54

I have always loved reading. I started reading pretty early. That's a really like, high value for my family and my mom. My niece right now is 17 months old, and we're already like, okay, what are we doing with these letters? She's recognizing the letters and stuff. So we are like, how

Traci Thomas 41:10

old were you when you started reading? My

Justine Kay 41:13

mother claims, two and a half.

Traci Thomas 41:16

Your Mom, come teach my little badass almost five year olds to read. It's

Justine Kay 41:20

different with boys. I don't know how it was my brother, but yeah, so it really reading, really young. My like, emotional support. A lot of people have an emotional support stuff animal. I had emotional support book that I would carry around. Which one was it? Oh, my God. It was something I don't know. Like she fell down. It was like, a sentence. It was a full sentence, so I used to carry that around with me. And then when I was, I want to say a teenager, my family and I were going through some really wild socioeconomic things. I was going to a really elite private school. It was really intense. So I would read a lot of either Nicholas, sparks so like real romance ease or hood, urban novels, okay, okay, favorite genres still to this day, um, so a lot of sister soldier um, and she has

Traci Thomas 42:13

a new book out this year. What? Yeah, I think there's, I think there's a new sister soldier book that can't that comes out this year. I cannot wait. I can't wait. It's called Love after midnight. Perfect. I think it came out. It came out this month. It came out in or came out in October. Yeah, yes. Go to the store, go to your local indie, get it. Okay, so you loved reading. You were reading Nicholas. You were reading Caucasian romance and then black shit, yeah, yep, yep. And then, now, where are we? What kind of read Are you now? You still like romance. You like cookbooks. We share this. We love Yeah,

Justine Kay 42:50

I love a cookbook. I absolutely adore your cookbook episodes. They are my ultimate favorites. Thank you. And yeah, I love reading a cookbook as if it's a textbook.

Traci Thomas 43:00

Me too. Me too. Solas is like, the gold standard of, like, if you just want to, like, learn about cooking.

Justine Kay 43:06

Yeah, she's a

great teacher too. She's another one great teacher. Great, great teacher. And, yeah, so I love reading cookbooks, and then I love reading romance novels. But I really do at any time when I'm feeling enraged or like trapped in my feelings of any type love reading about history and abolitionism, yeah, it's just the easiest way to curb those feelings. Internally.

Traci Thomas 43:33

I feel like you and I really connected after I did your show, when we started talking about books, and I recommended thick to you, and then you ended up loving it. And I was like, okay, we can be friends.

Justine Kay 43:43

Yes, yep.

Someone just asked me, What's the book that, like, changes your life, or what's the book every woman should read? I was like, thick by trustee McMillan got him. She's the best, she's the

Traci Thomas 43:51

best. She's the hero to me. She is the gold standard of, like, public intellectual.

Justine Kay 43:59

Yeah, oh yeah, definitely.

Traci Thomas 44:01

Okay. What are you reading right now?

Justine Kay 44:03

So right now? Oh, my God. I just finished a romance book called the wedding date.

Traci Thomas 44:08

Oh, Jasmine Guillory, uh huh. What did you think of it? Yeah, that's the red one. That's the first one, right? The red one, I've read that one.

Justine Kay 44:17

Yeah, right.

People talk like that.

Traci Thomas 44:22

People love her books.

Justine Kay 44:24

I understand why I

Traci Thomas 44:26

read the first one. I started the second one, and I just couldn't, yeah, it's a little too tidy for me. Yeah, right, yeah, yeah. It just it didn't do it for me. Um, what are some books you're looking forward to reading? Oh

Justine Kay 44:41

my gosh. Well, I'm really looking forward to reading this new sister soldier book Matt made my own. And I'm looking forward to finishing the message. And I usually buy romance books three at a time. Okay, so right now I am. To start, take a hint. Danny Brown, oh

Traci Thomas 45:02

yeah. Okay, that's part of a series, right? That's the Yeah.

Justine Kay 45:07

And then I gotta move into the Oh my gosh. What is her name? I can't think of her name right now, but one of the famed authors I have like you a hard page limit, okay? Of 303 50. If it's great, I'm gonna extend it 400 okay? I

Traci Thomas 45:25

think I have to for all books, or specifically romance, romance, romance, yeah, four. I read a 400 or something page romance book this year, and I just don't know that you can sustain 400 pages if you're just talking about one couple's romance. But I feel this way about all fiction. I'm just like, I don't know that I need to be here with you for 400 pages, if it's just one person thinking about doing something like, if they're doing shit, like, if you've got a character who's out in the world, moving shaking fucking shit up, I'll go with you 700 but if it's just one storyline, I don't need it.

Justine Kay 46:13

No. But most of those books are series, and so they move into the friend groups, and they move all the way out. I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna say,

Traci Thomas 46:20

okay, and you and I are gonna be reading luster very soon by Raven Leilani for Book Club, which I'm very excited about. Very excited. I only know that it is about a young black woman in New York, I think, who meets a white dude who's like, middle aged, married, has kids, I think, lives in the suburbs, and is it an open or has a wife that's open to an open marriage?

Justine Kay 46:49

Marriage, it is.

Traci Thomas 46:51

I don't know anything, but what I do know, what I'm smelling a mile away, is racial politics.

Justine Kay 46:57

Oh yeah, oh yeah. That wife is gonna be like, hard. I can't wait. I

Speaker 1 47:02

can't I can't wait till the wife touches her hair. Oh, my. I can't wait till the wife asks why she always puts lotion after they shower. I cannot wait to see two Americas together on a page, and it's a short one. So everyone, you're welcome by on purpose, we wanted to do short for November, because we don't know where our heads are going to be at

Justine Kay 47:27

No, My God, it's a holiday month. It's a lot. The burrs are a lot. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 47:30

the burrs are so much. Wow. September is the only one that's acceptable, yeah. And your kids go back to school in September, right? Yeah. So that's a dream for me. That is, My God, they went back in August. It was like nice shit, yeah, but they don't be in school at all in December, right? These holidays be stacking up. I get it. Teachers don't want to be with my kids either. They shouldn't have to be. But is there somewhere that kids can be away from all adults, but also safe and taken care of. Winter camp. There is winter camp there is but because of the holidays, it's weird, because it's like, two days here and one day here, it's just like, unless, like, I guess I have to see my kids on like, Christmas and Christmas Eve, all, yeah, but yeah, yeah. Anyways, this is not a talk shit about your kids podcast, necessarily. It is, but it isn't okay. What? How okay? How do you decide what your next book is going to be? How do you decide what to

Justine Kay 48:34

read next? Oh, my God, that's such a good question. I okay for the message, right? I didn't want to necessarily dive into what Mr. Coates, Professor Coates, had to say right now, because right now is a really stiff time. And then he got up on NPR and he said, All this racist shit just makes me sell more books. So whatever you want, like, it doesn't matter. Yeah, I'm I'm good either way, right? And I was like, Wait, that's my same attitude about everything. Like, whenever we just got a one star review on Apple podcast, it was like too much political talk. And I was like, that's a five star review to

me, yeah, yeah.

I didn't realize me and Professor Coates had that in common. Yeah? I like that

Traci Thomas 49:23

thanks to the haters, I also have this in common, yeah, always, always, my favorite version of myself is, what when I get to be the villain on your show, when I come on and talk about race, and then people are mad at me because I just let them know that someone maybe is black and they don't like that. But you know what? I'm never wrong. No, someone is always maybe black. Example, primo numero uno, fucking Steven from Love is blind. Is blind, blind.

Justine Kay 49:56

Oh, my God, that black man that that i. African American,

Traci Thomas 50:00

okay, the Ghanaian, Nigerian.

Speaker 1 50:07

What is so fucking crazy? I know we've talked about this at length, because I can't not talk about it, but that man, that light skinned black man, said I found out I was three fifths black, which is so crazy. To say crazy, like, just so crazy. It's like, accidentally amazing, unless he knows, I can't tell if he knew the history and said it on purpose, or if it was an act. Was it just like a perfect accident? Was it just like in the ether? Anyways, he says he's three fifths black, and then he's like, so I went to the library and I checked out books on Ghana and Nigeria. I'm like, my guy, your blackness is so uniquely American at this point, the fact that you're not reading like passing by nella Larson,

Traci Thomas 50:54

I was like, why didn't you watch Imitation of Life?

Yes, why did you go and read like a fucking book about Accra. You need to be reading a book about Mobile, Alabama. My guy

Speaker 3 51:04

shapes Baldwin, reading about how to knit a dashiki. You can read that,

Traci Thomas 51:12

yes, you are so far removed from the homeland at this point, do not start there. Do not, do not, at least, start at the transatlantic slave trade, my guy

Justine Kay 51:21

east, at least, because you don't then get up on international, worldwide television and say to your wife, to be wife, I like your black girl headband. That is a bonnet, sir.

Traci Thomas 51:37

He also called her a mutt. He sure did. She

Speaker 1 51:40

calls herself, but still, you just got black my guy, you don't get to be saying my yeah at the library checking out Nigerian culture for dummies. Okay, how dare you? He said, I'm gonna take I'm gonna learn how to make Jollof rice. Okay, yeah,

Traci Thomas 51:59

yeah, that's what's most important right now. Yep,

Justine Kay 52:01

I don't even know how we got here.

Traci Thomas 52:04

Okay, what is, what's a book you like to recommend

to people

Justine Kay 52:11

I really love recommending

thick, obviously, is one that I like to recommend to all women but white rage, by Dr Carol Anderson, that's another gem that you recommended for me that explains so many things. And what it does too is knowledge. What knowledge always does for me, as I've said now four times, is that knowledge like quells anger, right? So when I go to Pennsylvania to the pumpkin patch with my mixed niece and I see Trump hats and Trump signs all over the place. I kind of know where those people are coming from, right, historically and internally, and knowing that I know and they don't is enough for me to not get nearly as angry.

Traci Thomas 52:58

That's a great point. Is everyone in your family registered to vote in Pennsylvania?

Justine Kay 53:02

Oh my God, no, just my brother. He, Oh no, he's not even him. He because he's lived there for however long. But I don't know if he's registered or not.

Traci Thomas 53:10

Oh my God, I hope so. Everyone listening, we got the brother to register. Okay, don't worry, it's taken care of. Don't worry,

Justine Kay 53:18

he's a vet for taking baby on the way right now. So

Traci Thomas 53:21

for the future, my God, okay, how do you organize your books? Do you organize your books?

Justine Kay 53:26

Oh, great question. I just got this bookshelf because we needed the second one. Okay, I really need to get a library card so that I can start returning these back. Because I buy these romance books, three, three at a time. And it's not, it's, I don't have enough room for this.

Traci Thomas 53:41

Library is amazing. The library is the best. Do you listen to audio books

Justine Kay 53:46

at all? No, I'm not into it. They've always put me to sleep. That's okay. I

Traci Thomas 53:52

was just gonna say, Do you have a Kindle or, like, an e reader?

Justine Kay 53:55

I don't. I am so attached to the paper.

Traci Thomas 53:59

Okay. Well, I thought the reason I'm bringing this up is because with your library, you can get digital and audiobook checkouts as well. So I use that a lot sometimes, like, if I'm reading a book, I'll also check out the digital copy for my Kindle, so that at night time I can read on my Kindle and not wake up. Mr. Stacks.

Justine Kay 54:15

Oh, that okay, that I should get. Do you also

Traci Thomas 54:19

have a book light? So I can also do that too, but I just, I like it on the Kindle better at night. It's easier on my eyes.

Justine Kay 54:26

Do you you recommend the Kindle for an e reader? Well, no, I don't

Traci Thomas 54:29

recommend. I mean, that's what I have. There's a KOBO. There's other ones. I just don't have those because for my work, there's a platform that we use that sends to Kindle. So I have Kindle, but I don't necessarily recommend supporting Jeff Bezos. I recommend supporting your local bookstores and bookshop.org which supports Indies. They are, I think, working on a digital version. I don't know if it's a device or what, but they sort of were teasing it on socials. So I'm keeping my eyes extremely open for this option. Yeah. Speaking of bookstores, do you have a favorite bookstore?

Justine Kay 55:04

I do. Oh my gosh. My bookstore that I had growing up, watch on booksellers in Montclair, New Jersey. Okay, it is, what's it called, watch on booksellers, watch Avenue in Montclair, and it is owned by a lovely, lovely woman who I went to, like, camp with her daughter, like we went way back. This bookstore has been open for over 20 years. They now have a cafe that they bought next door that is like, oh and cute, and it just smell you can't. You can't even replace the smell. You cannot. You cannot.

Traci Thomas 55:41

What's the last book that made you laugh?

Justine Kay 55:44

Oh, man, who was on here talking about they don't like jokes and books? Was it Chelsea? It

Traci Thomas 55:49

was probably me. It was probably you talking to

Justine Kay 55:53

Chelsea, right? Yeah, I don't like that either. I don't and I especially don't like it when they say and then they cackled in laughter. I'm not laughing now. I

Speaker 1 56:05

feel left out. I am now laughing. Okay,

Justine Kay 56:11

what might have been, actually, though that primal playbook, oh,

I was Catholic laughter.

Traci Thomas 56:17

You are doing a hyena sound. I

Justine Kay 56:19

Yeah, okay. What

Traci Thomas 56:24

about the last book that made you cry? Oh,

Justine Kay 56:26

my God, it's been a while because that's what I've been trying to

Traci Thomas 56:29

escape. Yeah? Oh, probably

Justine Kay 56:30

thick. The first, like,

Traci Thomas 56:32

eight pages of thick. Yeah, yeah, good. What about the last book that made you feel angry?

Justine Kay 56:37

Ooh, angry. Um, oh, the guest by Emma Kline,

Traci Thomas 56:46

okay, what's a book that brings you joy?

Justine Kay 56:49

Oh, a book that brings me joy. I'm trying to think, trying to think. Here, my niece is obsessed with this book where this little boy turns into a walrus.

Traci Thomas 57:02

What's it called?

Justine Kay 57:03

I forget what it's called. I think it's Peter turns into a walrus, or some shenanigans like that. It's just so much fun because she breezes right through it, but she kind of makes the noises. Is it called Johnny

Traci Thomas 57:15

the walrus?

Justine Kay 57:17

Johnny the walrus? Maybe, yeah, probably, yeah. And she's at the point now where she's, like, imitating animals. What does a penguin do? What does a cow do? And so that brings me a lot of joy.

Traci Thomas 57:28

I love that. Okay, is there any book that you're like, embarrassed that you've never read, or just as like, the one book you're like, I need to read that thing.

Justine Kay 57:37

God, I have so many me too. I have so many Well, first of all, I can admit this. Now it's towards the end of the show, so I can admit this now I have not finished our baby by Toni Morrison, Oh,

Traci Thomas 57:48

it's okay, is it? Yeah.

Justine Kay 57:52

Oh, I started so long, going about halfway through, and I just until after I was gonna say the Election Day. I'm gonna say Inauguration Day. Okay, I just can't do any more.

Traci Thomas 58:03

Yeah. How do you know how far you are? Have you gotten to the dinner scene?

Justine Kay 58:07

I'm about halfway through. Okay, there's,

Traci Thomas 58:09

I think it's chapter six. There's a scene in chapter six that is so fucking good,

Justine Kay 58:16

unreal.

Oh my god, I gotta go back and see if I've already passed. I think it's, I

Traci Thomas 58:21

think it's slightly past halfway, okay, okay, okay, but I can't quite remember. I think there's one in four and one in six, if I'm remembering, or six and eight, there's like, one, there's one, and then there's a chapter, and then there's another scene that's even better. And I was like, gagged and couped. Okay. Do you have a problematic favorite book?

Justine Kay 58:42

I don't think so. I don't think I'm at that level yet. The coldest winter ever is one of my faves, yeah, and that's, you know, not exactly scholarly,

Traci Thomas 58:50

yeah, yeah,

Justine Kay 58:52

um, what

Traci Thomas 58:54

about a favorite book from childhood?

Justine Kay 58:56

Oh,

trying to think, I don't know. I'm one of those people. I don't remember a whole lot from childhood.

Traci Thomas 59:04

Me neither. I mean, that's true, but I don't remember a lot of things I read. And then something will someone will mention I'm like, Oh, I did read that. I like that when I was a kid or something. What about a favorite book that was assigned to you in school? Do you remember any?

Justine Kay 59:18

Oh, my God, I too. I want to say this might be a favorite book from childhood, or it was assigned. I can't remember which one it is, but the secret garden is one of my favorites.

Traci Thomas 59:29

Oh, I never read that. Oh, I feel like I saw the movie. Okay, yeah, I don't think I was moved by that story for some reason.

Justine Kay 59:37

Oh, I was living Yeah, me and Natasha are both entranced by a secret garden experience. We are both very obsessed with Vanessa Hudgens ad house store, because she has three secret gardens in her house. Oh,

Traci Thomas 59:50

three. She's three.

That's what I said. She also have un secret gardens, just like regular gardens. I

Justine Kay 59:57

think she has one in the front. Okay. It, wow. The

Traci Thomas 1:00:01

ratio is one to three on secret gardens. Okay, okay, cool. I guess, wait. I can't I can never remember if I get these two movies confused. I think is there a little black girl in the secret garden? Whoa. No, I don't remember that. There is a movie with a little white girl who, like, lives in an attic and there's like, a black girl named Sarah, or something that's like her friend. Oh my god, I can't remember what it's called. Someone who's listening, you will know what I'm talking about. This is so embarrassing because I can't think of it. I'll try to google it and find it and put in the show notes, but it's like, I feel like it's like the secret garden, but I liked it more.

Justine Kay 1:00:40

Oh, my God, because she had her black friend wear, yeah,

Traci Thomas 1:00:44

like, like a something Princess, maybe, like, secret princess or something. Oh, maybe, yeah, the fuck, secret princess

Justine Kay 1:00:51

movie, black

Traci Thomas 1:00:54

girl, it

is black girl, a little princess, a little princess. A Little Princess, I think that's what it's called. A Little Princess. Sarah is sent to a strict board. Yes, this is it. Sarah is sent to a strict boarding school up to her father and listened World War One when she is when he is presumed dead. The head of mistress, knowing she will not receive any more money, forces the girl to become a servant. Then she meets a black girl, other, other Sarah, or whatever. Yeah, okay, yeah. I loved a little princess, and I always wanted Secret Garden to be a little princess, and Secret Garden was never a little princess. Secret Garden can never do the race play that is happening in a little princess.

Justine Kay 1:01:35

Never

Traci Thomas 1:01:39

okay, if you were a high school teacher. What's a book you would assign to your students?

Justine Kay 1:01:43

I would assign anything. Colson Whitehead, okay, okay, I think he's great. That's the last book that gave me a nightmare. Was underground.

Traci Thomas 1:01:53

Oh, okay,

Justine Kay 1:01:56

so anything by him, and then absolutely. Dr, Carol Anderson, oh yeah. She makes you appreciate education to a degree that I after going to school, still paying for this goddamn school, I never appreciated education as much as I did. Could you imagine if

Traci Thomas 1:02:10

she was your teacher, just like I know those kids at Emory, lucky kids, you know, she came on the show and it was like one of my favorite, yeah, episodes ever. I think about it, she was so great. Okay, last one feels extra timely, but we're gonna stick with the current president. If you could require the current president, Joe Beezy, to read one book? What would it be?

Justine Kay 1:02:32

Oh my gosh. Something about student loans, exactly what? But oh, and Joe, I still remember how he treated Anita, too. I never forget that. I know he set up cam, but I'll never forget and I'm a nickname person. Guys don't be like offended. I'm just going through my nicknames. I call Barack Berry. It just is what it is. Um, so maybe, maybe something else about and by black women maybe. Wait, who is cam? Oh, Kamala Harris,

Traci Thomas 1:03:04

Oh, I see, I see, I see, wow, Cam, that's not what I would call her. I don't know what her nickname should be, though. Yeah, because cam isn't short for calm, old commie, old commie clause not gonna work. We'll workshop nicknames. Hopefully by the time you all are finishing listening to this episode, she will be our president elect, and we'll have plenty of time to come up with nicknames. We will have we did it, Kamala memes. We will have all the things we need. It'll be walls, old coach walls, saying

We did it. Cam, please. Please. From my lips, to whoever you believe in. Ears,

Speaker 3 1:03:46

oh, my God, to everyone that everyone believes in, yes, just

Traci Thomas 1:03:50

to anything. At worst, we're going to Elmo, whoever it is you need to believe in right now, Elmo save us, whether it's Elmo or LeVar Burton, whoever your God is, please, please. We want to like this episode in the future, and if things go bad, no one will ever listen to this episode. No. The truth of a podcaster. Okay, everyone serious now we have a book club coming up. Justine will be back on Wednesday, November 27 to discuss luster by Raven Leilani. You can get that book for 10% off through reparations Club, which is a black queer women owned bookstore here in Los Angeles. If you go to their website, rep dot club, search for luster and use the code stacks 10 and get 10% off. You're supporting a black owned business. It's a great thing. We will link to Justine's everything in the show notes, Justine, thank you so much for being here.

Justine Kay 1:04:52

Thanks for having me. This is so much fun. Everyone

Traci Thomas 1:04:56

else. We will see you in the stacks. You.

All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Justine Kay for joining the show. Don't forget the stacks book club pick for November is luster by Raven Leilani, and we will be discussing the book on Wednesday, November 27 with Justine Kay. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack and check out my substack at tracithomas.substack.com. make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media@thestackspod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and @thestackspod_ on Twitter, and you can check out our website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Megan Caballero
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Ep. 343 The Nickel Boys by Colson Whitehead — The Stacks Book Club (Franklin Leonard)