Ep. 189 Embracing Rage with Myisha Cherry

Written By Megan Caballero

Our guest today is Dr. Myisha Cherry, a philosopher, professor, and author, whose work focuses on emotions and attitudes in public life. Her latest book is The Case for Rage: Why Anger is Essential to Anti-Racist Struggle. Myisha shares why we must embrace our rage if we want to improve our society, how we've been socialized around anger, and how allies can cause harm.

The Stacks Book Club selection for November is Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison. We will discuss the book on November 24th with Dawnie Walton.

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
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Traci Thomas 0:08

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Traci Thomas and our guest today is professor of philosophy and author Myisha Cherry. My issues work focuses on emotions and attitudes in public life. Her latest book is The Case for Rage: Why Anger is Essential to Anti Racist Struggle. And today we talk about rage as a tool about moralizing emotions, and the ways that allies can get in the way. The Stacks book club pick for November A Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison. We will be discussing the book on the show on Wednesday, November 24, with Dawnie Walton. Now it's time for my conversation with Dr. Myisha. Cherry.

All right, everybody, I'm very excited. Today we're going to talk about anger and rage. I am joined by Myisha Cherry, who is the author of The Case for Rage. Myisha, Welcome to The Stacks.

Myisha Cherry 1:47

Thank you so much for having me.

Traci Thomas 1:48

I'm so excited to have you. I am personally a large fan of rage. I love a rage. I love a rage moment, we can talk more about this. But I, as a black woman, cannot tell you how many times I have been angry black woman, you know, accused of such things. I was a manager of people for years. And I'm sure as you probably know, from your research and expertise in the field, I got in trouble a lot for being mean and angry. And frankly, I think that's bullshit. But what I love what you've done with your book, as you've made the case for rage, so for folks who aren't familiar yet, can you in about 30 seconds or so just kind of share what the book is about.

Myisha Cherry 2:33

Yeah, so I'm making a case for rage. I mean, that's, that's, but it's a kind of rage. And I'm making the case for as I kind of described in the book, that's a variety of angles that we can have, particularly in the context of political injustice. And as opposed to saying, don't be angry at all, I'm trying to kind of allow us to focus on the problematic parts, right and morally criticize those, but kind of preserve the noble or the virtuous form of anger, because I think there's uses for particularly political uses for it. And I think as essential as we fight against racism, so you can be angry, I want us to reclaim that anger. I want us to manage that. And we can talk about exactly what I mean by that. But don't don't throw it away. Don't be shamed by it. But I want us to reclaim it. And that's the that's the purpose of the spirit of the book.

Traci Thomas 3:16

I love this. So the main kind of rage that you talked about in the book is lordy and rage, which is inspired by Audrey Lorde. And her conversations and essays and speeches about rage. So can you sort of explain to folks what that is? Because I think that's sort of going to be the cornerstone of our conversation. So just sort of to define that, and kind of what it looks like and how maybe it manifests a little.

Myisha Cherry 3:37

Yeah, so I remember when I was a guy interested in this topic, as any kind of scholar would do, they go to see what other scholars have written about it. And I'm a philosopher. And so I went to see what feminist philosophers had to say about anger. And I noticed that they kept citing Audrey Lorde, her popular essay, the uses of anger, like that was the source. And I'm like, let me just go to the source and see what she has to say about it. And so as I was thinking about a kind of anti racist anger that I believe is noble, I couldn't help but go back to that essay, because I think she really provides us with a lot of like insight about the kinds of anger that we should reclaim. And so they get about for those who are familiar with the uses of anger, some of this, these features of the anger that I'm trying to reclaim is going to sound familiar. So Lorien rage is aimed at racism is aimed at race, racial injustice is aimed at, at racist. And we can talk a little bit more about why that's important, how it differs from the more problematic forms of political rage that can that can happen. So it's not it's not targeted towards scapegoats. Right? It's very specific and its target. Having this rage, it has a particular aim, and so it aims for change. It doesn't aim for elimination of an individual or a group of people, but it aims for change and algae Lords terminology, a radical transformation of our world. It's a range that is is has a kind of perspective that is inclusive Um, so it's not exclusive. And so think about kind of the end of the essay, what Angela talks about, I'm not free until everyone is free. And so it has this kind of inclusive perspective. It's like I'm angry at injustice. And it's not the injustice, it's just impacting me, but injustice that's impacting other people. And this kind of anger is motivational. And, you know, supported by social psychology, literature, anger in itself as motivational, but because of these other features is the kind of motivation that's going to lead you to engage in productive, productive action. And given those particular features. And to kind of add to the features that I kind of lay out in the book that kind of goes astray a little bit more from the uses of anger essay, is that it has it has a power to ascribe value to marginalize lives. It can lead us to engage in productive action. It's compatible with love as opposed to the antithesis of it. And it because of those features, that I think that it has a role to play.

Traci Thomas 5:52

Yeah. I'm curious, because so in the book, you define lording rage, and then you also have other types of rage, like wiper rage, narcissistic rage. And those ones are, I think, less productive. I mean, I'm loath to like, say, like, bad or good, because I think one of the things that I found so interesting about your book, is that any form of rage can be productive or destructive, right? Like, but just like other like, just like, there are forms of love that can be right, you know, and I think what I found just interesting is like the moralizing of anger, and rage and how they're like, people want to say like, oh, this is good or bad uses of anger. And I'm wondering, sort of how did this categorization of anger, where did it come from? Who does it serve, to make rage like the scapegoat emotion?

Myisha Cherry 6:46

Right? So one of the things that I think that people were doing that kind of curious people doing this as payment, anger and broad strokes, yeah, in which the kind of perception that we think about anger, and I even encountered this and my my book tours, like, what about violence? What about violence? What about violence like this, this initial tendency to think that what it is to be angry, is to want to engage in violent behavior, to engage in in revenge. And it's not to say that no anger can motivate you to do that. But that's just a kind of anger that motivate you to do that. And one of the things that I was trying to figure out as I was writing a book, is, why is it? Or how can we give an account of the kinds of anger that will lead to that particular behavior? Well, I began to think, well, who was it directed at? And what is the person thinking about? And who are they imagining? What is the kind of future that they are imagining? What is the kind of assumptions that kind of undergird that particular anger? And I think that once you begin to answer those questions, it will lead you to assess if that anger is productive or not. So let me let me just be a little more specific. So you mentioned whitebridge, for example. And I said that whitebridge, as opposed to being targeted at racism, racism is targeted at scapegoats. And anytime you targeted anything escaped ghost, you're not really interested in solving the problem. Right? Right. It's a distraction. And so you know, if your emotions is being used to focus on kind of distractive aims, it's not going to focus on the real problems. And that's a problem of that particular anger. And I think that's, that will make it different from from loading and rage. I think another thing that's, that's interesting about the features that I was talking about, so when I think about white breaks coming in, I think I witnessed on January 6, at the Capitol, is that when your aim is to eliminate individuals, when you have hatred towards particular individuals, that's going to impact the kinds of actions that you're going to engage with in that particular anger. So I think that a lot of people who were angry at the Capitol, I mean, they just sought to get rid of people, right? I mean, they went into the capitol to kind of assault people to get rid of people because of this hatred of the right or the left, etc, etc. But in contrast that with Audrey Lorde, I mean, what your aim is not to like kill people, and hate people, but to create a better world that's gonna inform the kinds of actions that you're gonna engage in, it's gonna lead you to run for office, as opposed to try to assassinate people that are in office, right? And so what I'm trying to get us to see is that, hey, anger is not one thing. It has a variety of features. And I think that if if you are engaged or have white rage, for example, you don't have to be stuck there. Right? All you have to do is perhaps realize who your true target should be right? Or perhaps you need to recognize that you can never get justice just for you, you know, justice is inclusive of everybody. And perhaps that will allow that person to kind of transition to a more productive rage, which is the rage and I'm defending in the book.

Traci Thomas 9:32

Okay. You're a philosopher, and I get to ask you a question that I feel like maybe I could ask no other person because it's like a little it's a little meta, maybe. All right, who is to say what anyone else's emotion is because I was hearing your talk about like violence, right. And like, there are people who are motivated by anger to violence, but there are also people who are motivated by love, according to them, like I think of like domestic abusers to violence, or jealousy to violence, or embarrassment to violence. And so I wonder like, how do we even know how to define like, who gets to define the emotion? Is it the person feeling it is that the person on the outside like, because that seems political, in and of itself is.

Myisha Cherry 10:24

Very much. So I think in my work, what I'm trying to get us to see is that the emotions that we feel is very much racialized. That it's, it's, it can be interpreted depending on the social and political positions that we take in society. And a lot of that stuff is informed by our racism, whether that's explicit or implicit, our sexism, whether that's explicit or implicit. So you mentioned at the start of our conversation about the angry black woman stereotype, where did that come from? Right, right. That's not Oh, you know, you didn't, you know, you didn't think about that when you begin to feel emotions from the very first time as an infant, right? That was something that was socialized inside of you. So what that's going to do is that's going to have an impact on what you feel how you feel, how you think that particular feeling is fitting or not, what you try to cover up in social space, is also going to have an impact in the ways in which people treat you the way that people try to police you and control you and silence you. Right, that's very much socialized. And I think you asked the question of who gets to say, well, being that we are human beings that are in social spaces, and some people have more power than others, there are certain kinds of norms and stereotypes that get in our culture. And that becomes kind of the hegemonic kind of ideal about what one should do or what one should feel. What I'm trying to get us to see is to see that, but also resist that. Right? So even when we talk about there's no such thing as the angry white man stereotype, right? But there are some white man is angry. When a white man is angry, he's justified in His anger. But where does that come from? Why do we think that right? Well, men, men has always, you know, you think about the value that men has inherently been been perceived to have, because they were born with a penis. Right? And so because they have this kind of high or hierarchical position, we have a tendency to think that men are valuable. And because they are valuable, they have certain claims to respect. And because they have certain claims to respect them when they are mistreated them the app and fitting response to that mistreatment is anger. So you think about Kavanaugh right, he was justified in His righteous indignation about these things that weren't done to him. And at the same time, Blasi Ford had to make sure she's the one accused of him, she has every right to be angry in that hearing, but she has to silently and change her voice very meekly, and position herself and orientate herself. And maybe perhaps they will accept her tears, but they will never accept her anger. That's social, right?

Traci Thomas 12:52

But what about the actual feelings of emotion? Right? Like, because you and I could experience something and feel about it differently and be feeling something in our bodies differently, but define it the same, right? Like how like that sort of like, like, because the social part of it is very clear. You know, it's like we see this time and again, like you said, angry black woman, or, you know, the the ways that white women can weaponize their emotions and like you talked about in the book about the caring, but I'm wondering about, like, the actual feeling. Because I think part of it is like because of the socialization. I never I rarely say that I'm angry. I try to find like another like, Oh, I'm not angry. I'm feeling vulnerable, or like, I'm feeling um, but I'm, but I'm expressing anger. I'm just renaming it. So I guess like, on a more like, emotional, I had a boss, it used to always say feelings aren't facts.

Myisha Cherry 13:52

Oh, my goodness, that's inaccurate.

Traci Thomas 13:54

Well, it's so minimizing.

Myisha Cherry 13:57

Yes, So for anyone who's ever said that, please, no, please, no, please, no, please, no. And let me just focus on anger. So there used to be kind of a stereotype in scholarly leadership up until like the 70s, to suggest that anger is irrational. And then when people came to the conclusion, some smart people came to the conclusion where anger arises because you have judged something to be wrong. You have evaluated the world in a certain kind of way. And in order to engage in that particular exercise, one uses one's rational capacities to do that. So if anger is a judgment, that something is wrong, there is no way that you can take any kind of deliberative process and call that deliberative exercise and irrational activity. That's just irrational to say, right. So let me just say that but I would say this, I mean, even as you were asking a question, you can't help but throw the social end there. Right. So that's important. Yeah, sir. But I would say for someone who's asking that question, from a very basic level What emotions do I mean? I talked about this in the second chapter of the book, where I talk about the say that any emotion is appropriate or fitting, I think that's kind of language that you're suggesting. I mean, should I feel this way? Or what is it, you know, to say that an emotion is fitting, it has to just match this particular occasion. Right? So, when we think about sadness, with sadness is an appropriate response to a awful event, traumatic event, traumatic event, etc, etc. One might even say happiness is an emotion that is fitting to a joyful, wonderful occasion, right, so much so that it will be odd to be happy that someone has died, that emotion doesn't fit the occasion. So when it comes to anger, it's so easy for us to think I don't feel anger, I feel this other emotion or I'm not right or justified to feel anger in this particular occasion. And I want to say, well, this is just a very simple formula. If that emotion is arising due to mistreatment, and justice, something has gone wrong. Well, you may be feeling angry, that's a fitting emotion to that particular particular happening, and I want us, you know, some way to not call it something else, because here's the thing, so many other people is going to do that job for us. They're going to call it bitterness. They're gonna call it hatred. They're going to call you a bitch. Right, right. So I think the most powerful thing for you to do is click reclaim that for yourself. And I think that's what I'm trying to do in the book to get people to see your anger reactions is a fitting response is appropriate, you are justified in feeling this towards this particular situation and call it that.

Traci Thomas 16:37

Yeah, I definitely think you do do that in the book. And the book is very empowering. Just to read about the the ways the transformative vision that you have and lay out for rage. I mean, you you say, I mean, it's not a vision, you cite instances throughout the book. Okay, this is sort of, I'm sort of flipping your whole book, though, on you right now. Sorry. And I hate to do this, I don't really I'm excited, because you just said if you're feeling anger due to mistreatment, but there are so many white nationalists, racists, etc, who feel anger due to mistreatment, and they've built racism off of this anger. Is there a way to disarm that kind of rage? Is there a way to rationalize with that kind of rage with those kinds of rage? Because in the book, there's multiple kinds that it could be like we mentioned wipe rage, or narcissistic rage. You know, I don't want to minimize it, because I know you have in detail talked about different versions of that. But it's not just people who are mistreated, who are affected by racism. Your book is focused on race. But you also mentioned that there's a there's a whole scholarship around feminism and rage. We actually did Rebecca tracers book on the podcast years ago. So you know, we've talked about that in this space a little bit. But I'm wondering like, how can how can lordy and rage, you know, on the rage of Olympics take down, narcissistic rage and like really like, what do we do?

Myisha Cherry 18:05

right. So I have several response, I'm thinking, what's happened in the case of, let's say, a racist to feel like he's being mistreated? Well, we got it, we got to investigate that. Right? Because it could be anger has to fit the event of mistreatment, right? And if it does, we can say it's a fitting appropriate response, right to have. But if there's no such mistreatment happening, right, then one can still feel anger. But we would just say that that anger is inappropriate, right? It's misguided. It's directed the wrong target, what is wrong and their assessment of things? Right? Because I think a lot of times, I mean, anytime you are engaging in Islam of some sort, as much as you are engaged in, what I will say is, is kind of a moral failure of sorts, you will also engage, and I'm going to kind of probably use it as a scholarly term here and epistemic failure of sorts, you are interpreting the world, and in accurate ways. And what I tried to do, and I think this is an indication of the second chapter, is to show that one of the things that loading rate has over these other kinds of rageous is that we have all the receipts that what we are responding to is indeed something that is happening in the world. So one way perhaps you can disarm in some way is facts, facts. I mean, you talked about feelings aren't facts, but facts can change feelings, right? Because if your your feelings is in response to misinformed facts, right, that if we give you accurate facts, then your emotions can also change. So So here's an example. If I feel that you have stolen something from me, I'm going to be angry. But if I found out you didn't steal it, you just left it in my in my closet, and I have no reason to be it. The facts have changed or give me reasons to change my feelings. Right and as much as as much as I read something early today about critical race theory and how people saying, hey, these people don't care about the facts. Oh, no, I don't want to say that no one cares about the facts. I think a lot of people honestly believe that they have them. Right. And they are right, and what they have, right. And so I never want to say that we shouldn't fight that knowledge, that knowledge thing. So that's one way I would say that knowledge has the power to kind of transform that. But, you know, it's a constant fight. I mean, I don't think I have any any details as far as how the loading rage can override the other forms of rage. All I want to say is that it should match it.

Traci Thomas 20:30

Right. Okay. Well, let me ask you this. This is about something that's sort of in the news. Are you familiar with what's going on with Aaron Rodgers right now? Yes. So he's, he's coming hard, hard in the narcissistic rage camp, I would say, you know, he's been wronged. He feels, though, I think us of the Lordy and rage side might say, in fact, you've actually wrong to your teammates and your team and your community. But, you know, that would be the fact that I would say, but I guess my question about something like that is like, if you take the facts, to a narcissistic rager. My experience is that the rage doesn't always listen, you know, like, if you if I if you think I stole something from you, and you're freaking out at me, and I'm like, Maisha, here's your ring. Like, I didn't take it. Sometimes like the embarrassment takes over and fuels the rage, you know? And like, do you? Do you have any sense that it is worth it a lot of people that you need to calm down? Before you talk about that a little bit in the ally section? Do you find that that's valuable? Like, do you find that it is possible to communicate effectively when someone is in the throes of rage?

Myisha Cherry 21:43

Yeah, I mean, I think about the inner Rogers case, it's lacking not only kind of a mis assessment of what's happening here, like he thinks he's been mistreated. But it's also lacking that other piece, that inclusive piece that I was talking about that kind of perspective, inclusiveness and I think one of the things that I've seen throughout this pandemic, is that people really think that they are an island all to themselves, right. And they honestly believe that their individual behaviors affect no one else but themselves. Like if I want to do this, let me just do this to myself. And I think that beyond just being wrong in the assessment of mistreatment, I think and I don't know if it's an American thing, but this individualism suggests that my being in the world has no impact on others, is not only wrong, but has become kind of an American religion. Yeah. And when it's correct, in the sense that there's no way that facts can change that perspective, right? I honestly believe it requires something a little bit more Everquest kind of a moral transformation, of seeing how we can see oneself in relationship to others. And if Jesus can't save them, I mean, maybe someone in their lives that's loving, that's compassionate, you can help show them and change their perspective in that particular regard. But then I think a lot of things really come down to not just facts, but we're faced a moral and spiritual crisis in our era. And I think only moral calls and spiritual transformations can really persuade people out of the destructive kind of rage. And until we get there, and I'm saying that's a toolkit, that's something that's a tool in our toolkit. Until we get there, we can focus on the kind of rage that we have in response to their ignorance and their harm, and engage in productive action to kind of undo the harm that they have done. And hopefully, they will come to our side and transform that themselves. But it's just an unfortunate, it's unfortunate.

Traci Thomas 23:44

Yeah, I feel like just hearing me talk about that. It made me think, in the last few years, especially with COVID I feel like the Lordy and rage side of the left, I cannot the whole left, but people who are engaging in this work, right. I feel like there's been a call of more coming together. Like we're seeing these strikes, these worker strikes, people organizing together. You know, we obviously saw last summer during the George Floyd protests, like people physically coming together. And I feel like on the other side, the people who are perpetuating racism and creating racism, I feel like we are seeing a more and more individualistic situation where it's like, me, me, me, my, my, my. And I think that that probably can be attributed somewhat to the Lord and rage because it's saying, you know, I'm not free until we're all free and that we have to all come together and organize together. So that definitely speaks to sort of a huge part of your your thesis in your book. I wonder about outcome and intention a little bit. I think about like, you say it in the book. You can have a bad outcome with lordy and rage, right like you can do things that are are destructive. And you can also have a good outcome with a wipe rage situation perhaps. Is that does that matter? Like, how do we navigate that?

Myisha Cherry 25:05

Yeah. So I think it may have been a misreading of sorts.

Traci Thomas 25:10

That's fine. I do that a lot. So please, correct me.

Myisha Cherry 25:14

This is good, this is good. So then I can, I can kind of clear it up. And I think, I think one of the things that I was responding to is that some individuals might think that what it is to have this kind of virtuous anger is to become this perfect human being. That whenever one is angry, when it's always going to be perfect, and do these particular kinds of things. And I want to say that in the same individual, the same individual can have loading and rage, and they're engaging in productive action, the same person can also have it's kind of awful rage, in which they may be engaged in very destructive actions. And I'm talking about when I say awful Rachel say awful rage in regards to being an awful partner at home, it could be misusing that rage and very detrimental way One might say that may be characteristic of a lot of our leaders in the last few centuries, that they will have, they will have been able to have virtuous elements in a political context, but had a different kind of anger and other kinds of context. And I want to allow for that, because I think with that, not only allow for it, but acknowledged that that is the case. But what I'm trying to show him that point I know is that that was an extreme example, what I'm trying to show is that who you need to be, I just had this virtuous anger. It's not this perfect individual, although I hope that if you really love people, you know what I mean, you're not not doing a lot of stuff that I just alluded to. So that's one of the things that I was concerned about. But I want to if it's fine, Tracy, I want to go back to the other point. Yeah, my lack of coffee failed to address Go ahead. And I think one of the things one of the things that you mentioned was, you know, how can you how can Gordian rage kind of respond to this other kind of race has happened, and it made me think, Carol Anderson's book, white rage came to mind, so good. And one of the things that she lays out, she says, Listen, a lot of people are afraid of the rage of protesters, black protesters for for racial justice. And he says, You know what? Well, you know, what the country really needs to be concerned about, as far as what can bring down our country is white rage. Because it has been the rage of white people that have undone the liberal creed that we hold ourselves so dearly. So they have undone, equality and liberty. And she gives you the historical analysis from like reconstruction up to today. I mean, one of the things that comes to mind is when she begins to talk about Obama, and she talks about what Obama got elected, a lot of Republicans had a meeting that night, angry about the election, they got together and started to strategize. And when I see white rage at work, it's easy for us to think about January the sixth, because we have a tendency to think that people who showed up in January 6 is a certain kind of right person. So we can easily dismiss that as a hit, for example, or an uneducated, you know, and all these jokes, and all the stuff that was done that feeds into this narrative, that the only white people that are angry, are poor, uneducated, white people, and white people in positions of power hat, and that anger has been used to rollback a lot of stuff. And what our ancestors have done to respond to that is to keep mobilizing, keep organizing, keep fighting, keep loving each other, keep protecting ourselves. And I think they show us a good role model of what we should continue to do. And what that looks like is going to be very different in different contexts. But going back to a point that I made, may later is just to try to meet it. I mean, you don't We don't know to what degree but just continue to embrace the anger that we have, and continue to use it continue to get in solidarity with others. And hopefully in time, yeah, it can overpower the white white rage that has always existed in this country, right?

Traci Thomas 28:36

I think about you talking about, you know, like poor white rage. And it makes me think about sort of what happened after the 2016 election. And it was this whole conversation about like rural white voters, even though the exit polls showed that Trump won with white voters of every economic group, every educational group, every metropolitan group, or rural group, and it's just like this, this lie about, again, who can be angry, poor, white people can be angry, rural white people can be angry, but rich, white people, they're not angry. They're just voting for their taxes, or they're just voted, you know, like, there's always an excuse for the rich, white elite, if you will also speak, let's keep talking about white people. Let's talk about some allies. Because one of the things I wrote this down, and I usually put a page number and go back and look, but of course, I didn't put a page number for this. But I wrote down the opposite of Rage is respectability. Did you say that? Or did I interpret? I mean, I could. I'm gonna say you said it because it doesn't sound I don't feel like that is my level of intelligence to write that down. So I'm gonna go ahead and say that was a huge thing. But I want to talk about respectability, and allies. And in this case, again, we're talking about allies to racial injustice and racism. You meant you lay this out in the book, I just want to be really clear, because in the book, you lay out that that's what you're talking about. But that anger can be used in other movements. So in this case, we're we're talking, I think mostly about depending on the kind of racism, we're talking mostly about white people, and then other ethnic and racial groups that aren't the people receiving the racism, right. So like earlier this year, when there was the violence against different groups of Asian people, that would include black people as allies, when we're talking about the violence against George Floyd and the unarmed black people, that would include Latino folks as allies. So just to be clear, the whoever the ally is can can rotate in this case. So you're talking about how allies can get in the way of progress, especially when it comes to rage and sort of tone, policing and respectability. And that this isn't a reflection of the value of the rage, but of the allies inability to empathize. And that is a quote I took from you from the book that I know is, that was real good. I want you to kind of talk a little bit more about that. Because I know that the people who listened to this podcast, even if they don't say their allies feel that they are in ally ship with racial injustice, I just don't think you can listen this podcast and not feel that way. I hope unless I'm really off base. But I want you to talk to them and us and talk about, you know, the ways that we're fucking up when we think that we're helping.

Myisha Cherry 31:25

So I'm inspired by a lot of literature from activists and journalists on this topic of how allies can be badly. And I'm even aware of kind of a controversy in the terminology, right? That even the term itself implies. Or one might think that they don't really have anything in the fight. They're just helping others. So let's call it by another term. And I can see that I understand the debate. And it's not just use our lines, just so we can have a good sense of what we're referring to right have been those who are not directly experiencing the mistreatment, but want to want to make sure that they're doing their part to alleviate it. In the in the in the book, I call these individuals, rage renegades. And these are particularly white folk. And the reason why I call them rage Renegades is because I basically simply say that, although they live in a racist society that was meant to benefit them. They show outrageous such a society, and in the way they kind of resist that particular society as a result. And I engage in literature on how allies can mess up. But one of the things that I tried to do in relationship to that particular chapter, is lay out the ways in which allies can mess up with their anger. Because that's a very, you know, kind of, I think, different argument, right? How can we mess up with this particular anger? Because one might think, Oh, I have anti racist anger. I have this virtuous anger. I have the anger, that loading rate that Audrey Lord talked about, I'm good. I had the rage, there's no way I can mess up. And I want to say yeah, with that with that rage, particularly, you can mess up. So there's a variety of things that people can do. So one thing I say, is one way that you can cause harm. And not necessarily when I say in certain instances, either cause harm by what you do cause harm about what you assume and what you believe. Because I think there's a variety of ways in which you can mess up. So one thing I think people weigh in which raise relegating can go wrong, is that when an ally think that because they share, they have the same anger of a black person, they now know what it feels to be oppressed. Right? I'm angry to understand, right? So they're basically suggesting that because they feel this anger that they you know, they kind of really knows what it means. And what might say, Well, what's wrong with that, whoa, if you know what it means to be oppress, you don't need to listen to oppress people. And you can be like Portland wall of moms, you just do your own thing. And as opposed to asking black folks what they need, what kind of help they need, what kind of ally ship they need, you just make these assumptions about what they need. And when you start doing that, you start getting away of their own agential capacities, and you start disrespecting them as a result, right. So it can continue to go down a rabbit hole there. Another thing that I think rage Renegades can do. And this is this is this is, I think one of the probably I think the most tempting of all things that can go wrong. And that is is when they think that their anger matters more than the racially oppressed. Now, recall a while ago on our conversation I talked about when I talked about Brett Kavanaugh and I thought talked about if you're if you're a white man, you will think that you have inherent value because the world has just told you that you do. And you think when you mistreat it, you're gonna respond. You're gonna feel like you've been disrespected, you're gonna respond to anger. Well, you think that's gonna change in an anti racist context? Right? You're used to people listening to your anger, right? You're used to people saying that, you know, yes, you have been, you know, disrespected or, or we're gonna listen to what you have to say. And when you put that in an anti racist context, it's easy to think, Well, yeah, I understand you're angry, but because I'm angry. This really makes it the cause of all calls. Yeah. Right, right. And so I basically say, Well, you know, what happens is you have reinforcement or you reifying the same kind of racist assumptions in which you're trying to get rid of through by joining the anti racist struggle. And then another thing that I that I say that a way that rage, mitigating can go wrong, can happen by grandstanding. So I call it moral anger grandstanding, where you think that because you're white and you have anger, then that, therefore makes you better than the other white liberal, or even blacker than that black person whose anger is not as strong as yours, right? So what you start doing is you start having, you know, holding those people in contempt, but thinking that you're morally better. And I'm trying to say, well, that's the same strategy that racists have employed, right, you create a distinction between people who are morally superior, morally inferior, and how people ought to be treated as the same kind of racial kind of processes that happen with racism. And then I talk about white savior ism, where you think your anger is gonna save the day, right? And without it, white people, black people can't be free. So just trying to unpack all those ways that even when you're like, sincerely joining the cause, and you really, there's some temptations that can happen, specifically with your feelings that we need to be forever conscious of and constantly check for ourselves to make sure that we're not doing the same kind of harms that we're fighting against.

Traci Thomas 36:11

Just hearing you lay that all out. I was reading your book this week, when when the election happened, and what the last one you said, the moral grandstanding reminded me of this tweet from John Lovett, who's one of the pods of America guys. He tweeted, well, I hope this serves as a wake up call for everyone. And it was like, but it came you could tell came from a place of anger, like he was really pissed about it. But it was that moral grandstanding of like, well, I knew better. And, you know, I'm mad about this. And I hope all of you idiots who aren't who don't care. And my response, of course, was like, there are people who these outcomes are going to affect way more deeply than you white guy in California, who don't think you're very fucking funny. Like, it's not funny. It's not cute. But it's that same thing of like this ownership of the rage that like, I get to feel angry, and therefore I get to decide what is right and wrong around these things.

Myisha Cherry 37:07

Right. And then the temptation, then temptation is that you become louder, you begin to drown out voices.

Traci Thomas 37:13

And he has that platform to like these.

Myisha Cherry 37:15

Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And then another thing, another thing that happens is what you're doing is using all the energy for grandstanding, and there's nothing left to use it to motivate one to engage in productive action. Right. And according to RJ Lewis word, that is a waste of energy. Yeah, so the energy is being misdirected.

Traci Thomas 37:32

Okay, process process process. Here. We got my favorite stuff. I love this shit. Okay. So first of all, I want to know, what was easy for you about writing this book? And what was more difficult. Wow. More, was it all horrible?

Myisha Cherry 37:56

Wow, what was easy. I mean, the thing that was easy was knowing that I needed to write it. It's something that's been bothering me since Trayvon Martin was murdered, sure, and seeing people's responses and your responses, but also seeing pundants criticisms, and respectability politics being kind of preached upon us. And so what was easy was knowing that this is something that I needed to write that was very clear and very easy. I think I'm heading right in his heart. And I think as a as a as a, as a philosopher, particularly kind of philosophy that I do is that in our in our profession, we don't necessarily write books that much we write articles. And so if I have anything to say, I can save me 8000 words, and then I move on to the next academic article. I see. And so trying to figure out what is going to be kind of a consistent argument that I want to make over 65,000 words. And that's always a challenge, because I'm so used to doing an 8000 and trying to figure out what are what are, you know, this is argument that I want to make, but what are the kinds of premises that are most important in trying to persuade people of my particular argument, so that that process is always difficult, like the flow of okay, this chapter, and then that will lead us to this chapter. And then once you have the scraps, this particular concept and we can move to this, that's always hard now, when I look back at the book, and like, of course, this flows, right, right, right, right, let's start off with the different kinds of anger. And then let's just talk about how this anger is fitting. And then we can talk about how it's motivational and use examples as motivation. And then we can talk about how you can be a resistant figure. And then we can spend the last few chapters talking about how to do better with it. But all that's never clear in the beginning. Right, right. So that's always that's always difficult. I think another another difficult thing, and I was explaining this to some students at hoster when I was talking to them this week, and they asked me about process and kind of a similar question. And I basically told them one of the hardest things that I did that was worrying about the personnel in the introduction and in the conclusion, because as an academic person, although I have you know, I write op eds, I never talk about myself. Right. Just never no one knows my life story except my friends. I'm a very private person. And so having to like think about all the time that the first time that I was called the inward, I felt vulnerable. But also going back there to kind of add adult insight to the situation that happened to me was kind of tough was kind of tough. So I think those those personal parts were hard. Okay. But yeah, yeah. And then there's also this feeling that, well, I hope I wrote the best book that I could write at the time. And that's just something that you just don't know, if you, if you've if you've done.

Traci Thomas 40:32

That's always the insecurity for me to is this the best I could do in the moment? Okay. In your acknowledgments, you mentioned your grad students helping you with the book, and I'm curious what that process looks like. Are you all reading texts together? And like discussing it? Are you posing them questions that you're kind of thinking through and asking for collaboration? Like, how does that work?

Myisha Cherry 40:53

So one of the benefits, I had this the selling point that I try to do with all of my friends who are writers, and I always tell them, Listen, I know you love writing. But please try to be a professor and your professor life, not only do you have like a steady check in so you can be your true authentic self. And the books that you decide to write as opposed to just writing for money, you haven't even have a constant audience, you have a constant think tank that you can that you can rely on. So the ways in which this happened. So I started writing a book, right when I was wrapping up my PhD in 2018. That's when I drafted my first chapter. But I went into my first job in the fall of 2018. So knowing that, you know, for the next year and a half or so I will be writing this book. And so the first the graduate seminar that I taught this graduate seminar PhD students was on anger. And so you know, selfishly because this is what professors do for particularly for graduate seminars. I'm going to teach what I'm currently thinking, and what I'm currently writing. And when I'm going to, of course, I want expose my students to the literature, but I want to think with my students about these particular concerns. So the way that the semester was laid out is that you know, at the end of the book you have the bibliography, they read a lot of that stuff. And we thematically kind of addressed these issues. And so for we're in the quarter system, so for the first eight weeks, they got accustomed to okay, what are people saying about anger, What have people said about anger in the last year or so. So they had the opportunity to hear people's different arguments and different takes on it. And then the last couple of weeks, and this is on the syllabus, we will workshop, my very drafty chapters. Now that you all are semi experts, now you've read a lot. Now, it's time for you to look at some work that's in development. And given what you know, what is weak? What is strong? So here's also the thing, I think, I think, as an academic, I mean, we know going back to the people thinking that they were I mean, within themselves in this religion, religion of individuality. We know this scholarship, particularly, I think a lot of scholars of color know, the scholarship doesn't originate out of a smart person being in a room all by themselves and coming up with something that's gonna change the world. We know that it happens as a result of being in conversation with colleagues, going to workshops, going to presentations, and that's how you make your work better. So because I have thick skin in that regard, right. And what was most important is creating a book that will resonate not just with people with PhDs, but people, my students age, that was very important for me to hear their perspective on how to make how to make the book better. So I found it to be a privilege to hear what they had to say. And of course, you know, the like your your professor, we can't say, right, he and maybe we will really go in Yeah, but I don't really like to know, I was like, Listen, I need to make this book. Great. Right? How can you help me make it right? And they they were able to meet meet that challenge. So I had to shout them out in the book.

Traci Thomas 43:48

I love I love reading acknowledgments. I mentioned this to you before my sister in law is a professor. And she talks about how with her syllabus, every semester, it changes on what she's working through. And she'll she'll make sure to assign certain texts that she wants to have conversations about out loud. And I always joke that that sort of reminds me of this podcast because I started it because I wanted to be able to talk about the books I wanted to talk about in the ways I wanted to talk about them. And it's sort of that call for like community around thinking and in my case, literature and in your case, you know, philosophy and scholarship and I love that. Okay, how do you like to write how many hours a day how often do you have music or not? Are you in your home? Are you on the road? Do you like do you have snacks and beverages? Rituals? Let me know. I know you're a runner. So I was curious how that sort of plays in because you had that in your acknowledgments too.

Myisha Cherry 44:42

I am a wait, let me just say this. I'm a very weird person. Okay. loveawake habits may not match. My habits may not match everybody else's.

Traci Thomas 44:49

Everyone says this. Literally every author is like I know I do this different than everyone else. And I'm like, Yes, everyone does it different. I'm like to episode two 100 And every one is different, I promise.

Myisha Cherry 45:02

Okay. So I want to say that the way that I approached this is I realize that I am privileged in the sense that I witnessed my mother working part time jobs all her life, working several jobs at a time to make sure she supported me and my sister. So I know what a hard working day looks like. And I realized that I'm privileged in the sense that don't have to do the kinds of hard work that she engaged in the time that will just manual and all this other stuff. And I realized that economically, I'm doing well in that particular regard. But I still have a respect for working class work ethic. And I believe that there's a lot that we can learn from poor poor working class people about how to be and how to how to work. And so although my job pays me a lot of money, and I don't have to leave the house twice a week, I wake up 430 Every morning, I meditate in journal, listen to a few jazz albums. I'm a jazz fanatic, have my coffee. And then I read for two hours. And about by seven o'clock, I'm highly caffeinated, highly inspired to write and get up my computer, do the Pomodoro method. So I write for 40 minutes. And then take a seven minute break, right for 40 minutes, take a seven minute break. I have a tendency to think that around 12 or one o'clock the return on investment goes down. And so I like to wrap up my my writing day with that. I don't believe in having a heavy breakfast. Because I want the most energy that I can have in the day. So I believe in the kind of kind of snacks to kind of feed your brain. Okay, so oatmeal, almonds, even a little bit of chocolate.

Traci Thomas 46:57

Okay, thank you. So I'll begin my language chocolate. Finally, I know that your friends saw Jason Reynolds. Yeah, that's how I came to you. And he is my mortal enemy when it comes to snacks. Because he's like, tight cucumbers. And so when you started with oatmeal and almonds, I was like, oh my god, this is why they're friends. What a freak. But you came around with chocolate, I'm sure you're gonna tell me dark chocolate, you know, zero percent sugar.

Myisha Cherry 47:19

Of course, because I'm vegan.

Traci Thomas 47:23

Okay, this is, this is all coming together.

Myisha Cherry 47:25

I want to be energizing my brain and lots of water. So it's more like, Okay, what does my brain what does my what kind of what does my body what's the state of my body needs to be in, in order to allow me to think very, very clearly. And to persevere even when I own something challenging. It's going to happen, which is going to happen, right? And I think, you know, science just shows us that kind of food works. Yeah. And that having a heavy stomach works. It used to be the case that I will work out before I wrote. And I just realized that a way to kind of get myself out of this state of just being steel is to reward myself with a workout after arriving. But that stuff has a you know, taking breaks water, a little bit of coffee, brain food, stuff works.

Traci Thomas 48:09

I just started doing Pomodoro I do 25 And five, but I sort of think 40 And seven sounds better for me. 25 feels really short to me. Yes. Just short too short for me. Yeah, I just started like a month ago, and I like it. But it's too short. I'm going to switch today when I go to work. Okay, I forgot to ask you this. And I'm very interested. And you brought it up a little bit about starting the book in 2018. In the fall, how did 2020 Summer change the book for you? Oh, my gosh, that was my first question. I wrote down and for some reason I just didn't ask.

Myisha Cherry 48:38

You know, I won't be honest with you, Traci. There was a moment where I felt I can't really put it into words. But I felt because at this point, it was what it was with it was out for review. Okay, this time. And so it the book is published by Oxford University Press. And although it's a trade book, it's also kind of also said the university presses or goes through a process, and which has to be reviewed. People are like, What are you talking about? But it has to have, it goes through a very different process than trade books. And I just remember when 2020 was happening, I don't think there's an emotion to kind of describe this, but I felt like, oh my god, where's my book? Oh, my God, where's my book? Like, my book needs to, like, get into the hands of these people at this moment. And so it was kind of like this feeling like, oh, I have a way to help. But like, I can't really fully help in the way because it has to go through this process. They Right. Right, right. So in some ways, and as a scholar, I think my role in the struggle is scholarship, right? I mean, that's what I do, right scholarship and being an educator. And I just felt at that moment what I wasn't doing my role, because the way the processes were were set up, kind of prohibit me from doing that full role and I did write op eds for The Atlantic, etc, etc. But I really wanted people to have to have the book right and not to sell it not to be on the new time bestseller not to like be a part of this anti racism, like, consumerism materialistic thing? No. Like, I wanted to do my job. Right, right, which is to equip people that were underground, to silence people who were just afraid of anger and telling people to be quiet. I felt like I had something to say for the moment that will translate change people's minds, help people deal with the shame that they were feeling in regard to the emotion laying out what people can do about it I just had, so I felt weird in that particular sense, but it was also as frustrating as worse. It was just a reminder that the more things I'm gonna say the silly conclusion, the more things changed and what they stays the same. And it's like I said, I started thinking about this book in 2012. And it's like these things just keep out. So the book was sparked in 2012, in these moments keep happening, in which I can't let this topic go. And for the market, that may sound good for some people. But for someone who's committed to freedom, and some kind of progress. I just, I was heartbroken. I would say that, that that that what happened in 2020, gave me more exemplars to include in the book or more examples of some of the things that I was that I was thinking of, and conceive enough to put in a book. And so I think it made the book richer in the sense that I just had more to draw on comments that were said in the news by people who perhaps wasn't given a voice six years ago, things that I was witnessing and the culture, the solidarity that was filling, it was very distinct from originally when Black Lives Matter was excited, because you remember, Trayvon Martin people were afraid to say it and now corporations, what was different 2020 corporations had embraced it. Right. Right. Well, they were they rage mitigates, you know that so? So it led me to kind of think very differently, and I think it informed the book, but heartbreaking nonetheless.

Traci Thomas 51:50

Right? Yeah. I mean, unfortunately, your book is sort of an evergreen book up to this. And that's the sad part about that's the part that sucks, but it's like I'm thinking, as I was reading your book, I was thinking about the trial that's going on for the people who murdered ahmaud arbery. And like, that felt very pressured. And as I was reading it, also what's going on with Kyle Rittenhouse, his trial and the language that's being allowed, like so even though it isn't, you know, the George Floyd moment, these other moments, like I didn't for a minute, think like, this book is late. You know, I was like, Oh, this book is right on time, unfortunately, unfortunately. Okay. I just have a few more questions. This one's a pretty easy one. But it's important because you're a smarty. What's the word you could never spell right on the first try.

Myisha Cherry 52:35

And there's a lot of words I can't spell the last a lot of words I can't say. Oh, bleh. I really blame growing up in the southern part of Virginia for this. A word that I can't spell. Unfortunately, I can't spell misogyny.

Traci Thomas 52:49

Oh, hard. Very hard. I just can't get it. Right. Wait, whatever words. You can't say. I'm so curious. 11? the number after 10?

Myisha Cherry 53:02

So I grew up saying Yeleven. Yeleven.

Traci Thomas 53:04

Wow, I've never heard that. I love this. I love this. i There's so many words that I've mispronounced because I only learn them from reading. So it's like, why? Like sometimes I'll hear someone say a word. I'll be like, that's how I say that. I can't think of any off the top of my head. Okay. You mentioned in your process that you wake up early, and then you read for two hours? Are you reading academic texts? Are you reading for pleasure? Are you like, what are you reading?

Myisha Cherry 53:33

So yeah, that okay, so that practice is very seriously because I take that practice very seriously. I read in those moments, I consider myself reading for pleasure. Okay. But pleasures iffy, because I just think that being a human in the world, what we think we're processing for enjoyment, or simply just for knowledge, Simpliciter. That's not how the world shaped, I will have to I'm gonna have to recall that stuff one day. The way it makes me feel is going to lead me to do kinds of different things in the world. And it's always going to inform my work like this. So you'll notice in the book that a lot of SNL examples, of course I watch SNL for pleasure. Right? Right, right, right. But it's stored in my head because I know perhaps for work I will have to use this attire for a reason. So but I like to say that I'm using it for pleasure. I sit in a very different room when I when I read a room dedicated to reading good old Eames chair for relaxing original, by the way for relaxing while reading, but they're they're pleasure reading so they're not they're not academic books. They're not academic books. Yeah. So nonfiction and fiction.

Traci Thomas 54:37

Yeah. And then for people who love your book, The Case for Rage, what are a few books you might recommend to them that are maybe in conversation in the same vein that might inspire them or excite them?

Myisha Cherry 54:47

Britain Cooper's Eloquent Rage. I mean, Rage Becomes Her. Killing Rage, Bell Hooks collection of essays. Of course, the Fire Next Time James Baldwin. If a person want to know is there is a philosopher that I engage in throughout the book and people perhaps wouldn't know who is this? And what is their argument that I seem to be so against Martha Nussbaum Anger in Forgiveness. And her argument is the opposite of the argument that I'm making. And so people just want to be familiar with those kinds of arguments and more detail, they should go to that. That is that's the literature that I'm engaged in.

Traci Thomas 55:20

I love it. Okay, last one. If you could have one person dead or alive, read this book. Who would you want it to be?

Myisha Cherry 55:28

I wonder what Audre Lorde would say about it. Yeah, I do too. So that's, that's someone famous, famous. Okay. But my mother, my mother's deceased, but I wish she was alive to read it.

Traci Thomas 55:40

Myisha, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for writing the book. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and your scholarship with us. For folks at home that book is out in the world you can get it wherever you get your books, it is called the case for rage, Myisha. Thank you so much.

Myisha Cherry 55:56

Thanks for having me, Traci.

Traci Thomas 55:57

And everyone else we will see you in the stacks.

Thank you all for listening and thank you to Myisha for being my guest. I'd also like to thank Gabrielle Tkachuk for making this interview possible. Remember The Stacks book club pick for November is A Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, November 24 With Dawnie Walton. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join The Stacks Pack. Make sure you're subscribed to The Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave a rating and a review. For more from The Stacks follow us on social media at thestackspod on Instagram, Threads and TikTok and at thestackspod_ on Twitter and you can check out my website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

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