Ep. 190 Getting Cultish with Amanda Montell

Written By Megan Caballero

On this episode we are joined by author, linguist, and podcast host Amanda Montell. Amanda is the author of Cultish: The Language of Fanaticism and Wordslut: A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. We use her books as a lens to discuss the relationship of language to power and community, the ways women continue to be at the forefront of language innovation, and to look at cultural normativity.

The Stacks Book Club selection for November is Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison. We will discuss the book on November 24th with Dawnie Walton.

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Traci Thomas. And you all know I love a good cult story. So I am thrilled to have author and linguist Amanda Montell to join me today. Amanda is the author of Wordslut, a feminist guide to taking back the English language and and her latest book Cultish: The Language of Fanaticism. She discusses the patterns and language that lead to cults and cult-like behavior. The Stacks book club pick for November is Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison. We will be discussing this book on the show on Wednesday, November 24th with Donnie Walton. Alright, now it's time for my conversation with Amanda Montell.

Alright, everybody, as you all know, I love a cult. So I am very excited to have the literary I guess queen of cults, shall we say, Amanda Montell. She's the author of Wordslut: a feminist guide to talking- taking back the English language and Cultish: the language of fanaticism. Amanda, welcome to The Stacks.

Amanda Montell 1:54

Oh, thank you so very much;flattery will get you everywhere. Also, I like the subtitle a feminist guide to talking.

Traci Thomas 1:59

Yeah I mean that's sort of also the other version.

Amanda Montell 2:02

It very well could be titled that; it's less cumbersome. I like that better.

Traci Thomas 2:08

You know and you can have the title for free. I'll just gift it to you, my brilliance. super generous. I want to let people at home know. I loved Wordslut so much. So I know that we're talking about Cultish today, but we're also definitely talking about Wordslut today. So in about 30 seconds or so can you tell us just about Cultish for folks who are not familiar.

Amanda Montell 2:33

Of course. So Cultish is about the language of cults, from Scientology to SoulCycle. Really, it's about cult influence, cultish influence, and how it imbues our everyday lives and the proof of our various cultish affiliations in the way that we speak. My argument is that language is the most powerful cult tactic of them all.

Traci Thomas 2:59

I cannot wait to get into this because I have a lot of questions about the language. And I kind of want to know if I myself am running a cult according to some of your standards. So we'll get there. But I want to know how you decide what you want to write about because the topics while of course, you're a linguist, the topics are sort of seemingly very different. So they're also connected in a lot of ways. So I'm wondering what is sort of your creative through line when you're thinking like, this is what I want to write about next?

Amanda Montell 3:26

Sure, well, there are a number of angles from which I can approach this question. Well, I guess this is sort of like a market marketing-esque answer, but words that I was really just the book that the publishing industry would let me write. My background is in linguistics, it's what I studied in college for a while when I was like, in my early 20s, I was telling people that I wanted to grow up to be a pop linguist and write about linguistics for general audiences. And that was met with a lot of like skepticism and head scratches. And I was like, Okay, I guess I'll have to come up with something that doesn't make people confused. But I, you know, I had so many different book ideas, all nonfiction when I was very early in my career aspiring to be an author. But when I finally got on the phone with a literary agent, and was word vomiting, all of my book ideas, she thought that the language and gender stuff that I was interested in would be the most like sellable idea from me. And I was delighted by that because I thought that my linguistics degree was mostly useless. So that's how sort of words came to be I had I had been making really cringy YouTube videos that served as sort of proof of concept for words let just like in my free time, I beg you not to look them up.

Traci Thomas 4:44

You know, I'm gonna link in the show notes so, can't wait.

Amanda Montell 4:48

God I'm so embarrassed by those but um, you but no, I'm proud of her. She was trying to figure out what she needed to say. So, that was how Wordslut came to be but genuinely My whole life I've just been fascinated by the relationship between language and power. How using language in a certain way can work to cultivate an identity a personality can cause you to access power or not access power in certain ways. So that's all socio linguistics, which is a field that I didn't know existed until I got to college. So while right before Well, a few months before Wordslut came out, I came up with the idea for Cultish to write this book about the language of cults, it seems like the natural next step to stick with the linguistics theme, but to write about something that I would read, you know, word slit was was what I studied in college. So I like kind of, like already knew that stuff, right? And then right was delighted to share it with others. But I didn't know anything about the language of cults, whatever that meant, or didn't mean. But the idea was, was inspired by a few things. I mean, I grew up with a cult survivor in the family and my dad spent his teenage years in a pretty notorious cult called sin anon. And my parents are research scientists. So I grew up in this incredibly skeptical household full of independent thinkers who were, you know, maybe a little bit disdainful of fringy religions and mystical beliefs, especially considering my dad's background. But of course, that only made me totally enraptured by these groups. So yeah, I mean, the idea for cultish snapped into focus for me when I was chatting with my best friend who had recently gotten sober and was telling me about AAA and the vernacular of AAA, if anyone knows anyone in recovery is like so distinct. And so sort of cult sounding. And I was like, dang, I gotta write about this. But not just talking about cults like the people's temple in Heaven's Gate, but really talking about the cultish pneus that imbues our everyday lives, which I've always been really keenly sensitive to, because of my parents, my dad's stories and all of that.

Traci Thomas 6:58

So like, if you're listening to someone talk about something that they're super into, like, let's say, your friend starts going to one of those cryochamber things, you know, I'm just I've been in one I've done I hate cold more than anything. It's like, you couldn't pay me probably, well, you could pay me but I wouldn't like it. But anyways, like, let's say someone, you know, starts doing something like that that's like good new, kind of like, trendy? Are you listening to how they're talking about it to be like, Oh, this place is like, not a cult, because I mean, the whole conceit of the book is like that the language that people like Jim Jones used, while what he was saying was maybe further, you know, into cold land than the language of SoulCycle. There's some overlap and how that language is being manipulated. So I'm wondering if like, you're so plugged into that, that if someone starts talking about, like, their new favorite grocery store or something, you're like, oh, maybe this grocery store has like culty vibes going on?

Amanda Montell 7:58

Oh, yeah. I mean, language is the lens through which I hear the world. So there are times when I can barely focus on the content of what someone is saying, because I'm like, so fascinated by the way they pronounce their R's or something like that. Not not judging it not like I'm like a grammar fascist, like, I don't care about prescriptive language. I care very much about how people do speak and why they speak the way they do and what that reflects and what it means about who they are. I'm not interested in how people should talk. There's a difference between being prescriptive and being descriptive, which is why I love linguistics so much, and why it's important for people to understand that it's different from like, elocution, or like grammar anyway. When I'm listening to someone I'm totally paying attention to, you know, what it might say about their experiences and cultish language now is something that I cannot unhear no matter how hard I try, certainly, in Los Angeles, you can't go to birthday party without running into someone who's involved with some kind of cult or quote unquote, cold. So yes, I'm definitely tuned into you know, are they using, you know, special Us Them terminology buzzwords, mantras, shibboleths thought terminating cliches, all that good stuff.

Traci Thomas 9:15

I want you to sort of run through a few of those for the audience just so they kind of understand what isn't not don't give it all away, because the books really good. So I don't want people I don't want you to give all your genius away. But can you explain like a few things from the book that maybe are like the the most? No, I feel like thought terminating cliches are like the thing that really stuck with me, but maybe there's a few other things where you're like, these were big pillars of the cultish language.

Amanda Montell 9:42

Absolutely. Yeah. The thought terminating cliche. It's one of these things where once you understand what it sounds like, you're going to hear it everywhere. So this is a phrase that was coined in the early 1960s by a psychologist named Robert Jay Lifton, and a thought terminating cliche describes a sort of stock expression that's easily be memorized, easily repeated and aimed at shutting down independent thinking or questioning. So questioning scrutiny is obviously the enemy to any cults, they cannot have people pushing back because that will unravel their whole structure and their whole plan. So whenever anyone expresses any sort of dissent, they're going to need a roster of these semantic stop signs, if you will, to alleviate that person's cognitive dissonance and get them to stop thinking for a while. It's work to think it's a relief not to have to, it's a relief not to have to think like oh, I so badly want to believe in this group that I've invested so much time, money, energy resources into, and yet I'm feeling this instinct that something is amiss. Something is exploitive. When someone serves you with one of these really catchy using expressions, it makes you feel like okay, I can kind of relax or stop thinking about that for a little while. So folks who are familiar with Nexium might recognize an axiom without terminating cliche in the form of something like dismissing a valid anxiety or doubt as a limiting belief. You'll hear that a lot in sort of new agey and self help circles in Q anon. And can spirituality that's portmanteau of conspiracy theorist and spirituality. For those unfamiliar, you know, the the anti Vaxxer yoga mom type got it? You often hear things like trust the plan, or Well, I did my research, do your research, right? But thought terminating cliches show up in our everyday lives as well things like boys will be boys or everything happens for a reason. And when a group has too many of these zingy expressions that are there to you know, avoid having to reevaluate why certain things are the way they are or why certain people are in power who maybe shouldn't be. That's definitely a red flag. Yeah, thought terminating cliche.

Traci Thomas 11:53

There's, that's such like, I never thought about it like that. But like, you know, as a person who reads a lot and listen to people talk a lot and talk to people a lot. I know that there's something wrong there, right? Like when you hear one if you're expressing your concerns, and then someone says that back to you know, like that it doesn't feel good. Like thinking of everything happens for a reason. That's one of my least favorite things. Because usually is being said to you, when you're like someone you love has died or like you lost your job or Something terrible's happened to them. It's like everything happens for reasons like will fuck you actually know. And like that feeling, if you're on the receiving end is like, so horrible. But in the book, you talked about how a lot of times for people who want to buy in, it's actually really freeing, and it's actually a great thing, because it means that they don't have to think about the hard stuff, they can just, you know, trust the process or whatever, whatever thing it is.

Amanda Montell 12:50

Okay, well, I was just going to add really quickly that like I talk a lot in the book about the language of toxic positivity, particularly in the parts of the book, where I talk about multilevel marketing cults, and various, you know, like spiritual influencers and such. And, you know, particularly for folks who are born and raised and socialized in the United States were brought up with, you know, the Protestant Ethic, you know, the basis for what became the American dream, we we grow up really valuing a lot of toxically positive ideas, including meritocracy, you know, the idea that those who achieve their success really deserve it, and those who don't just weren't worthy. So a lot of thought terminating cliches, that groups that are popular among Americans, you know, Americans and cults have a pretty consistent relationship for various reasons. But some of these toxically positive thought terminating cliches like, oh, it's all in God's plan, and everything happens for a reason, really say a lot about our culture and our particular like fears and neuroses and values.

Traci Thomas 13:47

Right. No, I think it's so interesting to think about all of this, not just through the language lens, but also through the country of origin, right? Like in England, they're speaking English as well, but it's gonna be different. They're gonna have different value systems or political whatever this and that, that makes certain cults seem maybe totally off base, or more relatable, or whatever. And I think that's like such an interesting part of all of this.

Amanda Montell 14:12

Oh, for sure. I mean, cultural normativity has almost everything to do with whether a group is considered a cult versus a mainstream religion versus another kind of ideologically bound group. You know, so often, it's not about the actual dangers or abuses or wacky beliefs on the table. It's just about you know, that I mean, there's this classic quote in religious studies that cult plus time equals religion.

Traci Thomas 14:36

Yeah, I feel like that's like I feel like Mormonism comes to mind there because it's like a newer religion and so there's more questions around it versus like Catholicism where they do you know, a lot of similar performance elements and all that stuff. Were you surprised by how similar the language of colts were once you started, like kind of build holding your book and your thesis and kind of breaking it down, as you started to write the book versus like where you came in with, like, I want to write about this thing.

Amanda Montell 15:08

Yeah, oh my gosh, the structure of the book. And actually, the entire thesis changed completely from when I came up with the idea and when I started researching it, because I like a lot of people, you know, buy into the, this idea that someone can be brainwashed, literally, like, you can, I don't know perform some kind of like magic spell that causes someone to believe things that they would have never otherwise believed. And I set out to write this book about how language brainwashes us but very quickly starting to talk to religious studies scholars and sociologists, it became clear that brainwashing is really this metaphor that we take very seriously and can sometimes serve as a thought terminating cliche itself, when you write off a whole group as being brainwashed. It really dehumanizes people and discounts, the actual methods of coercion and conditioning and manipulation that were at play. And that's a much more interesting line of thinking, in my opinion, than to just say, like, oh, wait, they were brainwashed. So, yeah, quickly, I realized that brainwashing is hard to prove, right, you can't prove it exists, you can't prove it doesn't exist. And so that we need to be thinking about languages effect on us differently. Also, because you can't really convince someone to believe something that they don't want on any level to believe, right. And that's a tough pill to swallow. But really, like, you can't like brainwash someone into signing up for a belief system that they weren't on some level already amenable to can just radicalize them further and further and turn their beliefs a little bit more extreme. But those techniques are not necessarily going to work on everyone. And this is another surprising thing, they're not going to work on the people who you might think. So I had a lot of of myths dispelled very quickly upon talking to my sources.

Traci Thomas 17:03

Why are all people using cold language at all times to get what they want? Like what distinguishes the use of this kind of language from just everyday speak, versus someone who you would consider cultish?

Amanda Montell 17:22

Yeah, yeah, it's pretty nebulous. And this is why I often talk about this cultish spectrum. It's not like you know, there's this point past which something is definitively a cult. A lot of the scholars that I spoke to disagree about what makes something a cult actually, there's some cultish is even going on within the cult scholar community are like they're really vehement disagreements about how we should be thinking about cults and treating people who are survivors of cults and such, which has been interesting to observe and try to steer clear from. But, you know, it's it is a tricky question to answer. Obviously coltish language and marketing language have some things in common. If you Google, like how to create you know, a strong company culture in your in your business you'll come up with or Google will serve you so many results teaching you like how to structure your company, like a cult, not even kidding. Like there are so many listicles like articles in the frickin Harvard business review about this sort of thing. But I will say there is a pretty significant difference between sort of like niche jargon that you might find in any given professional field and cultish language. And in my view, the difference is that, for example, I mentioned my my parents are scientists, and they use a lot of really specialized terminology to talk about their research that I can't understand. But a lot of that terminology is there to make communication more succinct, more clearer. It's about conveying information, but cultish language does does just the opposite. So you might find yourself in a community of people a fitness studio, a startup, whatever it is, where they're using specialized buzzwords, chants, mantras, acronyms, abbreviations, that don't signify anything that can't be said in plain English. They're really there to make communication actually more hazy, more unclear, more cumbersome, because the language is not there for information. It's there for these ulterior motives to establish an us and them to discourage independent thinking to encourage conformity to silence dissent. And, you know, I've worked in my fair share of startups and other businesses that use language like this, and it always like sets off that radar that we were talking about before and I'm like, this is culty. You Yeah, it's because it's not there for what language is supposed to be there for, which is you know, at least genuine, genuine and authentic. Non Machiavellian language is there, you know, for communication in an authentic way. And this type of language has this pretty nefarious subtext.

Traci Thomas 20:10

Yeah, I used to work at flywheel which was a SoulCycle competitor. Oh, yeah. Less cold to you than SoulCycle by a mile. But also, like, supremely less cool than SoulCycle also, you know, like, we had two labs and like, you know, whatever, but it was not as culty and therefore, like, not as guilty.

Amanda Montell 20:33

Yeah. Well, you know, cultish pneus. And this feeling of exclusivity have to go hand in hand. And what makes something cool is to make something exclusive. And I think, you know, SoulCycle isn't as big of a thing now as it was like five years ago. And I think that's in part because they are trying to sort of toe this line between being exclusive and being inclusive at the same time, and you can't really do that.

Traci Thomas 21:01

Yeah, I mean, flywheel was like, we're for everyone. And I was like, Oh, so this sucks. Like, I want to be at SoulCycle I just can I actually loved Lidl, I liked the ride better, but anyways. Okay, I want to talk a little bit about word slat. And I want to start with sort of talking about you as a person. I never like to talk about identity politics so much, but I find your positionality as a younger white woman talking about language and saying words like like, and literally in a non literally way, an embracing sort of the language that I use as a millennial. And I think we're similar age, I think you're a millennial.

Amanda Montell 21:40

Yeah, I'm a millennial.

Traci Thomas 21:41

Okay, that's almost up. All right, I thought we I thought we were around the same age. But I want to talk a little bit about that. Like when you walk into a room and you say, I'm a linguist, and I know this kind of came up in, it comes up in words like with a mom of a college friend, who sort of tells you like, don't do that you sound dumb, or whatever. And you're like, listen, bitch, and you like, give her the whole linguistics rundown. But I sort of want to know what that's like, for you entering these spaces, I have to imagine, aren't super wild about some of the stuff that you're talking about, and the way that you're talking about it for like, everyday people and not talking about it in these academic ways. So can you kind of talk a little bit about your identity in the space that you occupy?

Amanda Montell 22:22

Well I occupy a space that's, you know, adjacent to academia, but not academia, you know, I don't have a PhD and was very reticent about even owning this linguistics title until like a group of linguists gave me their blessing or like, you're spreading the gospel speaking of cultish language. So I often find that I'm able to navigate whatever space I'm in pretty well in the way that all of us do, you know, everyone sort of naturally and unconsciously changes their register codes, which is if they if you will, depending on what space you're in. And so you know, sometimes I'll find myself doing talks at businesses that have this primarily like white male audience and I'm someone who feels comfortable sort of meeting people where they are to a degree and I think I have also via practice I learned like what arguments tend to resonate with what audience better than others, so I have kind of repertoire of of clap backs and whatnot. You know, the literally argument in particular you know, the only the only feedback I ever get that's like salty about my particular idiolect which is you know, an individual's personal way of speaking fun fun fact for those who don't know it is a isn't like you know, iTunes reviewers.

Traci Thomas 23:52

They love the way that I talk also. Or you tell you I blamed once for I got a review once that was like she says like, way too much and all of her guests to a tee pick up this horrible tech and I was like, Wait, you're blaming me for other people saying like, get a grip? I do say it but like I'm not taking well to blame.

Amanda Montell 24:11

There's this amazing piece in The New Yorker that was written not long ago that said if white men had been the population to pioneer phrases like like and literally we'd be reading the like New Yorker so I mean argument that I talked about in Word sled is like a default maleness default whiteness, you know, it's not really about the speech qualities or features themselves when we you know, feel triggered by a young woman saying like, and literally it's really about our preconceived notions of the speaker or judgments of the speaker. And you know, telling a woman she says like, and literally too much is just objectification in the way that telling a woman her skirt is too short is objectification. And you know, there have been countless think pieces written about how women need to stop Stop using vocal fry to sound more authoritative and stop using hedges like you know, and well and actually to sound more authoritative. But linguists have actually done empirical research to show that these qualities are not there to express insecurity, they all have these incredibly purposeful intentions. And, yes, they were, in large part pioneered by young women, because linguists have found time and time again, that young women living in cosmopolitan environments tend to be our languages, innovators. So if you want to know what mainstream English is going to sound like, in 10 years, you listen to a young woman living in a city who has her finger on the pulse. And that's, you know, in in large part, linguists have found because women often use language as a form of social power in environments where there aren't a lot of other power tools for them. So yeah, I mean, people say shit about our speech on the podcast, and I don't care, I would dare them to say it to my face, because then I could give them my monologue about the six different forms of the word like that are all homonyms and how they all serve different function and how one is the discourse particle and a discourse marker. And then you have a verb and an adjective and an approximate and they're all wildly useful. But you know, it's, it's cowardly to attack women anonymously on the internet, but it's a tale as old as time or as old as the internet at least. And so I'm not offended by that. But, ya know, I mean, people love a fact and a figure. And so if they, if they want to, you know, critique my speech, I've got a fact and a figure for them.

Traci Thomas 26:36

I love it. I mean, I think one of the things that I really loved about word sled, and I have been holding with me, since I read it earlier this year, is I just felt really empowered reading the book, because as a person who talks into a microphone for public consumption, and as a person who, you know, I, my job in the sense is to read other people's work and critique it. And so I feel very cognizant that by work when I speak into a microphone and put it out on the internet is also up for critique. So as a person who does that, I felt really empowered, because I understand why I say, a lot. And having you say, in the book, like saying, isn't, you know, a sign of stupidity or whatever. It's like, it's a minimal

Amanda Montell 27:24

response. It's yeah, because, you know, women often enter more sensitive territory in their conversations, not naturally, but because they're socialized to. And when you enter, you know, a conversation like that you often need active listening skills to you know, soften the conversation to open the conversational floor. I mean, like the research that has been done on minimal responses, and hedges and all these linguistic techniques that not only women use, but that women are more often than not critiqued for the studies are fascinating. So I'm thrilled to hear that you found them in Bowery

Traci Thomas 27:58

i 1,000%. And I've heard from other women who have read the book, who felt similarly. So I'm sure you've also received that critique or from threat, critique that feedback. So one of the things you talked about are these hedges. So in an email, I know a lot of women are told to go back in and take out everywhere you put just or an exclamation mark, or whatever. And that was one of the things that I had been taught, I used to work at, like I said, for firewall, and I was in management there before I taught. And I was constantly like being coached to go back and take out these things, and my emails and all of that. And I want to, I want you to sort of explain a little bit why that's fucked up. I know, you mentioned some of it. But I just think it's so important for people to understand women and men. And anyone who's ever coached someone to do something like that, why that is harmful or objectification, or however you want to phrase. Absolutely.

Amanda Montell 28:48

Yeah, well, it's punishing women for their own oppression, right. So women are socialized to be friendly, and personable and delicate and soft. And so we have accommodated really Savelii to these ridiculous expectations, linguistically, and otherwise. And so then all of a sudden, when the backdrop is an office, and not the home where we're used to women being we're very sensitive, and the like, the margin of error for women's speech is incredibly narrow. And now all of a sudden, they're forced to walk what's called the double bind of, you know, having to appear authoritative as managers are supposed to appear, but also appearing friendly and deferential as women are supposed to appear. And it's really an impossible line to walk. And so, you know, speaking authentically, is really the best thing that you can do. Because, you know, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't, but it's fucked up. Because when you're giving advice, like don't use so many exclamation points, et cetera, you're basically just asking women to accommodate to masculine standard of speech, which is not actually inherently more authoritative. Have are better or more confident. But it's just seen that way because of how men are perceived in this culture. So, yeah, I mean, I am asked often by words, let readers like I work in a male dominated space. And I've been critiqued for my language before. And I worked in a female dominated space before quitting and work for myself. And even then, you know, I remember like going through media training at some point, because all of us editors, I worked at a beauty magazine, we were all supposed to, like start doing Instagram lives and Facebook Lives and stuff. And so we needed media training. And I remember, I was critiqued for using like too much in casual speech. And the media trainer, who was a woman who was a middle aged white woman, she was like, Yeah, you use like way, way too much, you come across as quite likeable. But definitely using using like too much. And I thought it was ironic because she was using the adjective form of like to talk about how I was using like too much. I was like, oh, that's one of the six forms, you want to talk about it. But also linguists have found that speech lacking in likes, and you knows and actually is can come across as stilted or robotic. So I was like, What do you want me to do a lady? Right? I guarantee you if I sounded more professional by not, you know, and that's a judgment as well, by using less likes, you probably wouldn't have had such as warm and fuzzy impression of me. But yeah, I think that we just need to step back and think about, you know, where is this advice for how we should be speaking coming from what is it motivated by? And when people ask me, you know, I work in a male or female dominated space, I'm often critiqued for my language, what should I do? You know, my advice is not necessarily to like go to your boss and be like, I read this book called Word sludge, they say like, you're false. That's not super realistic all the time. But what you can do is like, return to your desk, and know that there is nothing inherently wrong with you that you are not innately less worthy of authority, because you speak this way. So you might have to accommodate temporarily because of your situation. But then when one, one day when you're the boss, and you have a fleet of women that you've hired, you can resist perpetuating those same harmful standards.

Traci Thomas 32:19

Yeah, I can't, that's the dream. Or I can, I can just say just and like, as much as I want in all my emails, and no one can talk to me about it. Okay, I'm gonna do a little critical. I don't know what you call this, it's not the right word, I'm gonna do some comparative. That's what I do comparative analysis, in words, let you talk a lot about the evolution of language. And there's a great section where you're talking about all these different words that are gendered and how the female gendered version of the word has become, like derogatory and bad. And the male version is basically the same. And so taking that idea, this evolution of language and bringing it to the cult, book, seat, look, what I'm doing this is I went to NYU, like you were both geniuses give her

Amanda Montell 33:08

a PhD in comparative literature, or

Traci Thomas 33:11

just, I'll take anything, just give me something right. Give me an applause clap in your cars, people. Anyways, I wanted to I want to know if the language of cults, if you've seen a large evolution and that kind of language and what works and doesn't, or if that has remained relatively stagnant over the last, you know, I mean, I think the earliest cult we talked about in your book is Jonestown. timewise. But there are other references, like, who, who predate that, and like a religion and things like that, too. So I'm kind of giving you a large time spec. Yes, yes.

Amanda Montell 33:46

Well, I mean, the first concept I talked about in the book is like what even is the definition of the word cult? There is no hard and fast definition. So the oldest cults, I mean, cults are, are as old as, as Roman civilization, I would reckon. Because craving community and spirituality and ritual and meaning is profoundly human. So I would say that that's very consistent, and the cult languages, aims in order to manufacture that sense of transcendence and connection has been there forever. But the flavor will change over time. There are consistent themes. But what's true in what I talked about Edward sletten, when I talk about in cultish is that language and culture evolve or change, I should say, side by side, they're intertwined. They're inherently connected. And so if you look at the cults language of Heaven's Gate, for example, that was this 1990s doomsday cult that surrounded this idea that a UFO was going to bypass Earth and if all of the members took their own lives in this very specific ritualistic way they could board the Space craft that would take them to the kingdom of heaven. So, most of the members were these x Christians who were interested in this more new agey sci fi answer to the world's most urgent and oldest questions. Why are we here? What makes my life meaningful? Where do we go when we die, etcetera. The 1990s was the era of like The X Files, and digital technology was providing like, again, new new information and new answers to questions we'd always had. And that's why so much of Heaven's Gate terminology sounded very sci fi to us, it probably not now sounds very dated in the Heaven's Gate universe. The kitchen was called the neutral lab and the laundry room was called the fiber lab. And when all of the members were in the mansion together, where they lived, that was called in craft, and when they were out in the regular world that was called out of craft. And this sort of this language helped condition them to imagine themselves in this religious place where they wanted to be. Now a theme that is similar in Heaven's Gate language, and in a lot of like these new agey groups that you'll find is a marriage of sort of like old school Christian language with sci fi language or sort of bastardized Eastern language. And that has to do with the fact that so, so many sort of new agey fringy cults just take familiar evangelical rhetoric, like good evil binaries, and being born in sin, and such and such and they will put this new like boho twist on them. So you'll find a lot of sort of like spiritual Insta gurus, if you will, talking about how we're all born in trauma, which is a very similar message to being born in sin. And they'll talk about how we're on the brink of a paradigm shift or a great awakening, which is similar to being on the brink of the rapture or the second coming. So that's pretty consistent over the years. But the particular flavor that will resonate with the culture really reflects what's going on in larger society at the time.

Traci Thomas 37:13

The cover of Cultish I want to know how it came to be because I, first of all, I love that it's pink. It's like the perfect millennial pink, but I want to know about the sweetpeas and everything.

Amanda Montell 37:27

Oh, of course. Okay. So we're talking about the cover cultish. Right, yeah, cultish. Yes, okay. So, um, I sent my publisher, a very intense mood board and keywords to keep in mind like a year in advance. I can send you I can, I'll send you a mood board,

Traci Thomas 37:50

because Okay, send it to me. I might share it. Can I share it? Yeah, like your shots. Okay. Absolutely.

Amanda Montell 37:54

No Share, share away. I was really inspired by the idea of combining really colorful and fresh hues with psychedelic shapes, but also with sort of black and white collage II images, okay, for like textural dimension, because I wanted it to feel both retro and useful. Dark, but not too dark. Does that make sense? Yeah. So we went through my poor designer, I mean, we went through probably like six rounds of notes, which is not typical. Normally, a publisher will just be like, here's your cover. And unless you absolutely fucking hate it, you have to just kind of be like, great, but I care a lot about the packaging man. Right. And so the first version, I got a lot of different designs on the first round. And the shape that you see of like the swirls. And the font that you see, in the final version was the same, but there were only two colors. They were like a very burnt muted orange, and a very burnt muted magenta, so very, very 70s. And there was no UFO. So we went through a few different color options, but in the end, I was like, I just want primary colors, because that feels really fresh, like the swirls still feel 70s But primary colors feel new. And I sent this reference for an image by the pop artists, Alia Penner who I'm fucking obsessed with. Hope I'm allowed to curse on your show.

Traci Thomas 39:33

Well, we've already been pressing, okay.

Amanda Montell 39:36

Don't even notice. And then I was like, and I want to put a UFO on the cover. And we went back and forth. And I got really nitpicky like I don't know if this is too nitty gritty of a description, but there's like a fabric overlay on the swirls where there's like speckles in the text. And that was very important to me. Oh my gosh, yes. We went back and forth a lot. And I'm so so thrilled With the final result, it's very Instagrammable it just I love it.

Traci Thomas 40:04

I love it. It's such a great cover. I want to know how you knew you were done with coltish, especially as so much is developing as it comes to like antivax q&a on January 6, the November election, Trump's presidency in general, like how did you feel like okay, I hit what I needed to hit with this present moment.

Amanda Montell 40:32

Well, I knew I had to be done because of the deadline. But my deadline, my like, final, final final deadline was a few months after January 6. Okay, so who had time to include that things changed before January 6, q anon was still in the part of the book because, um, just for some context for listeners, the book is structured such that in the first part of the book, I started out by talking about sort of the etymology of the word cults, cults role in society and the language that we use to talk about cults. So like, what is it called even mean? What has it meant over time, and then every other section of the book is dedicated to a different sort of category of cults starting with the most notorious destructive groups like Jonestown and Heaven's Gate and then working toward cults like Scientology and some other like religious cults. And then we move on to MLMs and pyramid schemes, that cult fitness talking about SoulCycle CrossFit and the like. And the last part is about social media called spiritual influencers, q1 on and can spirituality. The last part of the book changed a lot though after January 6, because I wasn't quite sure what kind of legs Q anon was gonna have. It was still in the book. But the book was or it was still in part six of the book. But before it was a lot about like celebrity Stan culture and like the blurry lines between celebrity influencers, spiritual leader, business leader, and then to and on just became it. I mean, it just exploded onto the zeitgeist. And so I knew I had to pivot. And so I, a lot of parts ended up on the cutting room floor. But this is actually part of what inspired me to launch the podcast that I launched, because like, so, so much couldn't be included in the book, I mean, coltish could have been so many different things. When I first got the book, there were like 12 different sections, there was gonna be a section on like academia and fraternities and sororities and a section on like, music section on sports fandoms. But it just would have been so unsatisfying to have a bunch of different like, super short sections. I read these beefier, but fewer ones. So yeah, I just I tried to incorporate all that was happening in real time in a way that still didn't feel dated, that still felt like it would be relevant five years, 10 years, 20 years from now, because I'm like, kind of unwilling people are like reading my blog that far in the future, but I didn't want it to feel dated, but I still wanted it to feel urgent knowing the culture that this book was going to be published into.

Traci Thomas 43:11

Right, right. I think you did a good job with that. Because I always wonder about these things, as they're developed as you're writing and they're developing as we're going, just how that how that's gonna play out. Okay, how do you like to write? How many hours a day how often do you listen to music? Are you in your home? Do you like to go out? Are there snacks and beverages involved? Talk to me.

Amanda Montell 43:32

I love these craft questions so much, because no one ever asks me the step. I think this is sort of like the nonfiction authors like occupational hazard that, like people are so excited to talk about the content. But yeah, I want to write in other genres too. Like I have a novel idea. I'm itching to write like, I am obsessed with craft like I went to school for linguistics and creative writing like this. So thank you for asking. I, um, well, in the pandemic, I was forced to write at home which I felt very contained by because I love I love a coffee shop righting moment. So you know, I like to, you know, suit up with my little backpack and I live in a walkable area. So I like to walk down to my local intelligencia like the super like cliche that I am and I get a an iced out cortado and a croissant. Or if I'm at Blue Bottle, I'll get a pretzel croissant. Okay, those are bomb. And I'll write for like maybe three hours but it's a very like stopping and starting three hours. And I don't really have like a daily word count. I'm trying to meet I do outline but my daily goals have more to do with what subject I'm covering that day. So maybe that's only one paragraph, but maybe it's five pages. But if I'm like Okay, tomorrow I need to cover this in whatever I'm working on. But I always set a writing goal that's like way lower than I Think what I can actually meet, because that helps me feel encouraged to always meet my goal because my goal is so low, my bar is so low. But then I always meet deadlines ahead of time because I leave myself like more time than I think I need. But so I'll write for, you know, maybe two or three hours in the coffee shop. But then I'm sort of I like pick away at my writing, I don't have like a precious ritual, I sort of just like, write throughout the day, and maybe I'll stop writing at like, 6pm. But maybe I'll be writing late into the night, I don't want to kind of limit myself and I'll sometimes you know, I'm not the person to come up with this tactic. But sometimes I'll say like, Okay, I'm gonna sit down and just write like one sentence, or I get an idea. And I'm like, Oh, I have to just write that down real quick, and it like an iPhone note. And then all of a sudden, it's an hour later, and I have like, 1000 words. So I try to just be like, kind of loosey goosey about it. Like, definitely, I have like a daily structure. And I have a calendar that I'm pretty meticulous about, but I leave a lot of flexibility within that structure. I need to get better at my snack game. I know that it's very important to you and it is important to me as well. I just need to prioritize it more in my fantasy world. I have like a frickin charcuterie board with like really yummy crackers and cheese and like jam next to me. And like maybe some like olives and strawberry.

Traci Thomas 46:25

Sounds delicious. I'm not that intense. Like when I have snacks. I have pretzel thins with cream cheese.

Amanda Montell 46:30

I just fantasy. That's my fantasy world.

Traci Thomas 46:33

I just don't want you to think that that's how I'm living either. Very far from it.

Amanda Montell 46:38

In my actual world, I'm like, damn it. I don't have any good snacks. So I'm just gonna, like, fucking starve until I can't stand it anymore. And then I have to like, run out of my house in a hangry mood and get some some kind of something like a slice of like a meal. Yeah. But I would say my favorite snack in general, which you cannot get on this coast is It's crab chips.

Traci Thomas 47:07

Oh, someone else has mentioned that on this podcast right now who? Yeah, Isaac Butler. He wrote the oral history of Angels in America with someone else. I remember his name. But Isaac. He's also an NYU connection. I believe. He teaches at NYU. And he's a theatre guy. And he's from Maryland, I think maybe and so that's the moment.

Amanda Montell 47:28

I'm sorry. He I was a theater kid. He's a theatre person who went to NYU who loves crab chips.

Traci Thomas 47:34

I think he teaches at NYU. He's a theater director. His new book is coming out and it's called the method I believe in it's it's an oral history, I think of the method of acting.

Amanda Montell 47:47

Wow. Well, I Stan a crab chip. I miss them so much. They literally cannot fly them over the Rocky Mountains because of the altitude the bags pop. I know this because I went to the factory I just had gone I long for a crab chip. So that's devastating. Every time I go back. Well, actually, my boyfriend's also from Maryland. And his mom sends us like nonpalpable bags full of crab chips from time to time. So that's very exciting. That's my favorite snack. And yeah, and then I don't I in some way write every single day. But sometimes that day is like literally just taking notes in my iPhone notes. And then whenever I start a book project, I have a Google folder where I have you know, a different doc for every chapter. And I have I have like a leftovers doc where things that end up on the cutting room floor that I might want to save for later. Wind up. I have a sources Doc, I have a scratch paper doc where I'm like, deciding like I don't want to cut this paragraph, but I made me want to like move around later. I just need to put it here real quick.

Traci Thomas 48:57

Oh my god, I love that.

Amanda Montell 48:58

Yeah, but I am not like precious. I don't need to like light a candle and say a prayer. I wake up at 6am You know, I like to sleep so I can and I can write I can write on the train or or I don't take trains. What the hell am I talking about? I can write wherever.

Traci Thomas 49:15

I love that I got on the train a train that I don't take. What about a word you can never spell correctly on the first try?

Amanda Montell 49:20

I've been thinking about this because I know this was a question on your podcast and there are so many but recently and this is kind of sad. I think the word devastated is spelled dv is d V A.

Traci Thomas 49:35

Wait that's one of the like nine words I can spell Believe it or not, you know I can't spell anything. I'm always like, I can't spell that either.

Amanda Montell 49:42

For the longest time I couldn't spell accommodated the double consonants are obviously the worst. Yeah, that's my neighbor. Fuck yeah. Accommodated is a nightmare.

Traci Thomas 49:54

I was wondering if there was two T's but I don't think so.

Amanda Montell 49:58

Yeah. Oh, yeah, but no for me, I think a double consonant I've I've paid such attention to it that I feel comfortable with those now. It's just a matter of memorization. I swear there is no pattern devastated though. Yeah has really thrown me.

Traci Thomas 50:14

I can see that though now that you're saying that I'm like devastated, not devastated. Devastated. Okay, you have a podcast called sounds like a cult podcast. Did that come after the book?

Amanda Montell 50:24

Yes. That started really just like a little bit as like a companion to the book. I was like, Oh, this will be a good way to get the word out about the book. But also there are so many cultish groups that I wanted to talk about in the book, but cut ins. And yeah, it was supposed to be like, just this little creative project that I was doing with a comedy friend of mine. That kind of like took on a life of its own. So now actually, well, I think we've been talking to Gumball and head gum isn't Gumball your ad? Person? Yeah, they're actually the head gun. podcast studio is like one block for me. Oh, really? So we might actually end up working with them anyway. I'm just like, oh shit, am I gonna be podcast or?

Traci Thomas 51:08

I love it. Welcome. Welcome to the cult, the cult of podcasting.

Amanda Montell 51:12

Yeah, it feels a little scary. I won't lie because readers are so thoughtful. Like, I don't I don't check my reader reviews on any of the platforms anymore. Because that's not healthy for me. But will like when even when I'll come across like the offhand, like negative review of cultish on Instagram. Which Why do you tag the author when you write a negative review? That's so mean?

Traci Thomas 51:40

Like I try to tell people not to do that. But why?

Amanda Montell 51:43

I mean, like, say whatever you want, of course, like you're entitled to your opinion, but like, do you need me to see really makes me sad. Like, there's nothing I can do about it. The book is already written, but anyways, even when I come across those, I'm just like, Okay, well, this is thoughtful, at least right? Um, but podcast reviewers? Like no, I never mean. Oh, they're so mean. They're super smooth.

Traci Thomas 52:08

Yeah. But I feel like they're easier for me to just disregard. Dismiss. Yeah, I'm just like, Oh, that was mean. Okay. Thank you. Like, yeah, my I always tell people, I'll read a mean one, and I'll be deeply hurt by it for about 30 seconds. I'll take a screenshot put it in the group chat, then we'll all laugh and then we move on, you know.

Amanda Montell 52:27

I just take the pressure off when you're working with a team like book writing is so solitary. So I take it so so to heart, right? When someone doesn't like something it crushes? Right? Like, I'm a fucking person, like, of course, it catches me. But the podcast thing is definitely easier to dismiss a because it just there's so hostile that I just, like, feel sad for the person. I'm like, we have one precious life and you're using it in this way. But also because like, I co host the podcast with someone. So it was like, Oh, that was easy.

Traci Thomas 53:02

I sometimes get reviews about my co host. And I'm like, I have no idea what podcast this person was listening to. And I was like, she and the co host said like a lot. And I'm like, wow, I mean, I know I did. I don't know who my co host was.

Amanda Montell 53:16

To get over it. I'm like, Listen to how much you say the word like, because I guarantee you it's constantly and again, that's not bad, right? You lag, right? Anyway, I don't mean to complain. The, uh, well, I just it's a new world, like being public facing is just, I mean, you think like, oh, you're entering the world of like authoring and podcasting. Like you should toughen up, kid. But, um, I mean, I don't know. Really. So much.

Traci Thomas 53:43

It is a lot. No, I get that. 1,000%. But I think, I don't know, it beats having to do something you don't like doing I guess? Oh, I'll tell you the sometimes the mean things are funny. You know, I'm always looking for a joke to make fun of myself. Like someone talked about how I was twirling my ringlets. And I was like, Well, I do met play with my hair a lot. But how would you know that? On my podcast where you can see me creepy. And as you see, I see right now I haven't touched my hair yet. I always have my hair pulled back when I'm recording because of the headphones. But you know.

Amanda Montell 54:16

So yeah, I'm just really trying to discover my unbothered persona.

Traci Thomas 54:21

It's impossible for me. Ya know, I'm a sensitive. Yeah, Sally. I am too. I am too. I have a tough exterior. I'm sensitive, but also whatever.

Amanda Montell 54:30

It's no fully totally because because like I just told myself, this is comforting to me. Maybe this will be comforting to listeners. I don't even know if this is even going in. But I just keep telling myself like, don't take criticism from someone you wouldn't take advice from. It's true. And I find a lot of comfort in that.

Traci Thomas 54:48

Yeah, it's no that's 1,000% True. Okay, I have to ask you two more questions. For people who love cultish and, or words like what is a book or two or three you might read? commend to them that are sort of in conversation with your work.

Amanda Montell 55:04

Ooh, I would recommend the work of John McWhorter, the linguists, extremely intelligent fellow, PhD, he's written a smorgasbord of books. His most recent book came out this year. It's called Nine nasty words. And it's about cursing.

Traci Thomas 55:25

Yeah, I love it.

Amanda Montell 55:27

Yeah, he's fantastic. I would recommend who, what cookbooks what I recommend, I think, okay, there's a book that is sorely seldom discussed, or at least I haven't heard about, it talks about enough. But there's a book written by the novelist and journalist slash theologian, Tara Isabella Burton called strange rights, new religions for a godless world. That is a nonfiction book that I think pairs well with mine. I just actually put a little infographic on my Instagram about cookbook and podcast pairings. I'll share that on the show notes too. Yeah, so check that out. Most cold books are different. I mentioned that strange Wright's book because it talks about a lot of cultish groups in the way that mine does. But most cult books, just deep dive into one specific cult because it's a memoir or a true crime book or something like that. And there are a lot of great ones there too. Like there's a book called Don't call it a cult, which is about Nexium, you know, there are like books about cultish groups like the Anna wiener min more uncanny valley about like the cult of Silicon Valley. Yeah. And then, like, I mean, everybody listening to your podcast has already read trick mirror. I'm 100% Sure. But that has like cultural criticism in the way that cultish does.

Traci Thomas 56:56

Yeah, we did trick mirror on the podcast as a book club pick. And if you want to read about Jonestown, the book that you all know I'm going to tell you is 1000 lives by Julia shares. I will not stop talking about this book. It is the best book on Jonestown a subset of it. It is the greatest book was one of the books of my life. That's what I like to call it. I love the book so deeply. It's actually half to half.

Amanda Montell 57:19

Also if we're talking about Jonestown, I also want to recommend the book, White Knights Black Power, which is a book by seakeeping Hutchinson, who's a scholar that I referenced in cultish. Yeah, she's like, I mean, the mainstream media coverage of Jonestown is so sensational and so unrepresentative. And I just was so privileged to learn from so many sources about what actually happened there because it is not what the media coverage communicated.

Traci Thomas 57:48

Well, this episode is coming out November 17. So November 18, will be the anniversary of Jonestown. That's so true. Yeah. So you guys should definitely read about Jonestown because it's an actually incredible and spelled correctly devastating story and not as much of a sensational No Look at that story.

Amanda Montell 58:10

A bunch of a bunch of bleary eyed mind control minions lined up and drink the Kool Aid first of all, it wasn't even Kool Aid.

Traci Thomas 58:17

Flavor Aid. Yeah.

Amanda Montell 58:22

And it was it was really this incredibly tragic, coerced murder of yeah, whatever.

Traci Thomas 58:28

Yeah, please read about it about it. Also, quick plug on Jonestown one more time, and then I'll get off it. But it's my one of my favorite subjects. Julia shares who wrote the book 1000 lives She's actually doing a I believe 18 Day series for Newsweek where she's talking about a different element of Jonestown. And so she's been doing it. I'll link to it in the show notes. She's fantastic. You should also read her book, Jesus land it's about this like weird camp that she went to as a child at Jesus Camp.

Amanda Montell 58:55

I feel like I am fucking obsessed with all things Jesus Camp, the documentary Jesus Camp is like, my favorite movie.

Traci Thomas 59:04

This is 1,000% up your alley. Very sad. If you get the new version of the book, do not read the foreword. Why they spoil the book in the foreword? I don't know why. So just don't read it. You can read it later, but don't read it before.

Amanda Montell 59:16

Wow. Thank you so much for that hot tip. And I am going to read that.

Traci Thomas 59:20

Please report back. Okay. Last one. If you could have one person dead or alive, read your book. Who would you want it to be?

Amanda Montell 59:28

Oh, my paw paw. My grandfather passed away in 2018. Is that like, really sentimental?

Traci Thomas 59:35

No. So many people mentioned family members. I think that's only right. I think if I ever write a book, I would want my dad to read it. You know, I think that you know, you spend your whole life loving someone and then you make a thing and they're not here. So no to not overly sentimental. It's beautiful. Okay, thank you. And on that note, we're gonna get out of here. I have linked to all of Amanda's books, her socials, her podcast, anything you everything we've talked Today in the show notes, Amanda, thank you so much for being here.

Amanda Montell 1:00:03

Oh gosh, thank you. It's an honor. I love this pod. I love all that you do. Your book reviews are so astute. I don't want to like shower- I don't want to love bombing you but we stan.

Traci Thomas 1:00:14

We started with me praising you. And now I will say all praise is welcome here as well. I'm a sucker for a compliment. So thank you and everybody else we will see you in the stacks.

Thank you all for listening and thank you to Amanda for being my guest. Remember the second book club pick for November is Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, November 24 With Dawnie Walton. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join The Stacks Pack. Make sure you're subscribed to The Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave a rating and a review. For more from The Stacks follow us on social media at thestackspod on Instagram, Threads and TikTok and at thestackspod_ on Twitter and you can check out my website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Megan Caballero
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