Unabridged: Queer Icons & Banned Books with George M. Johnson - Transcript
In this episode of The Stacks Unabridged, we’re joined by George M. Johnson, author of Flamboyants, to explore the often-overlooked Black queer icons of the Harlem Renaissance. George discusses why they chose to write about these influential figures and how they used rumors and gossip as historical sources to bring these stories to life. We also dive into the current wave of book banning, exploring what’s truly driving it and the common misconceptions surrounding this troubling trend. It’s a powerful conversation about history, censorship, and resilience.
TRANSCRIPT
Traci Thomas 0:00
Welcome to another episode of the stacks, unabridged. This is Traci Thomas, your host, and today I am talking with George M Johnson. They are an author of the critically acclaimed and frequently banned all boys aren't blue, and their new book is called Flamboyants, the queer Harlem Renaissance. I wish I'd known George and I today talk about this book and queer history, and we also talk about banned books, because banned book week starts on Monday. George's book comes out on Tuesday, September 24 so if you don't have the book yet, if you haven't pre ordered it, go ahead and pre order it and do him a solid for coming on the show before the book is out. Okay, that's enough for me. Now it's time to hear my conversation with George M Johnson.
All right, everybody, it's another bonus episode of the stacks and a bridge. I'm really excited. I'm George. I'm joined by George M Johnson. They are the author of all boys aren't blue, and their brand new book, which is called Flamboyants, the queer Harlem Renaissance. I wish I'd known George. Welcome to the stacks.
George M. Johnson 1:15
Thank you for having me on today.
Traci Thomas 1:17
I'm so excited to have you on. We always sort of start in the same place, which is just like in 30 seconds. Can you tell folks a little about the book?
George M. Johnson 1:25
Yeah, flinboyance is my take on the Harlem Renaissance. I say it's not like just about the Harlem Renaissance, but that the book is the Harlem Renaissance within itself. I write poetry. It's illustrated by the wonderful Charlie Palmer, it's 14 biographies of some important people who you may know, and then several people who most people don't know. But it's my attempt to, I guess, rewrite the narrative on people whose story has often been told with certain parts and pieces left out, primarily what their identities were, and comparing it to what we go through today, and how these people actually paved the way for many of the things and luxuries that we get to experience now.
Traci Thomas 2:08
Yeah, I love that you said that it's sort of the Harlem Renaissance in the book, because I was definitely like, illustrations which are stunning. They're so gorgeous. I mean, when the cover of the book was released, I was like, Well, definitely have to get that book. Like, for sure, has to happen. How did you come up with this idea? Like, what was exciting to you about going back to this moment, these people, especially because you came off writing a memoir, that's what people know you from, yeah.
George M. Johnson 2:42
I mean, it really started on the film and television side. We were having these ideas and ruminations around doing something around like the Stonewall riots, and then we also wanted to do something around the Harlem Renaissance, as the pandemic was going on television and film was shutting down, or if we would be able to actually bring those ideas into the television space. And then I kind of came up with the idea like, Well, maybe if I introduced it to the world in a written way, in a book space, we always then have the option down the line to adapt the work into what we actually want to see in television and film. And so I think that's really what it was birthed from. I think like in telling my story, which is present day, in many ways, I knew the importance of starting to go back in time and tell those other stories that we've never got when we were young adults, right? And ultimately, it's like, I want kids to be able to have stories and have, uh, histories that I didn't get to have when I was in high school. And so I was like, let me go back and, like, research this period for myself, but also try to give something back or a starting point for a lot of those teen readers that I once was, yeah, yeah.
Traci Thomas 4:00
How if you could, if you could imagine yourself a young person, you get this book, which of these figures do you think would have been the most impactful for young?
George M. Johnson 4:12
George, yeah, I really relate to county Cullen and like that struggle in between the juxtaposition of like, trying to be societally acceptable while also trying to navigate what you personally desire on the inside. Him being, you know, married to WEB DuBois, his daughter, while also being a bisexual person who was primarily interested in men like it just reminded me of like, having to go to prom and like wanting to go with my friend, does that means, but knowing that at that time, this was the two that early, 2000s like that, I would have been expelled from capital school for going with the boy and having to go with the girl, you know, like so. Like, in reading his story, it just was like one of those age old tales of like that juxtaposition that we get put into because of what society shows us that we have to be to be acceptable, versus what we truly desire on the inside. And so I really related to just his way of life and how he had to, like, really navigate a really pressure filled space as one of the key prominent figures of that time also had to fit into a mold while also trying to break a mold at the same time. Yeah,
Traci Thomas 5:27
how did you decide who was going to be in which 14? It
George M. Johnson 5:32
just was research at that point. Like it was because some of these people I didn't know, like I had never heard about Jimmy Daniels, Yeah, me neither. Lattice Bentley, like, I had heard about kind of in passing, but like, not really, like, fully researched and knew about, and so there were certain figures who I just didn't know. And so it really was just doing the research, and like, who were the queer people from this era? And like, once those things start popping up on multiple, like, Black History Month lists and things, then it's like, okay, maybe I need to research these figures a little bit more and see what was really going on with them.
Traci Thomas 6:04
Yeah. I mean, so one of the things that I was really fascinated by, I think, as an adult reading this book, and as a person who loves nonfiction and thinks about research and all of these things a lot, is a lot of this book, and a lot of what we know about many of these figures is like, from rumors and hearsay, and it's sort of like, yeah, you know, he never said he was gay, but he was fucking dudes a lot, allegedly, right? So, like, how did you How do you now, in 2024 How are you cognizant of, like, I don't want to, you know, out people or perpetuate things that maybe weren't true but were sort of gossiped about, versus, I want to acknowledge that this person was engaged in, you know, queer behaviors, and that's important to their story. But also, like they never said it, because nowadays we're so it's so clear, like, if someone doesn't say it, that's their story, that's their thing to tell. But we're talking about 100 years ago, and the times were different. So how were you thinking about, like, honoring how someone represented themselves, versus sort of getting into the hot Goss?
George M. Johnson 7:16
Yeah, it was a tough, double edged sword. And I've been asked this question, and I oftentimes have to kind of like, hum up against, like the fact of the matter, like, if we don't ever speak about it, then how do we change it? Right? Right? Because there was a reason that the choice to be positive happened, or the choice to be non public for better, a better way to say that the choice to not be public about your identity was happening, right? There was a safety issue. There was a danger issue, like Arthur ism, which I talk about in the book, like it was not a safe time to actually be a publicly queer person, though some defied the odds and were um, and so it was kind of hard. I think part of it was like again, once again, doing the research. I think when it came to Langston Hughes, he probably was one of the people who never actually said it right, even though his work highly alluded to it. But there was a movie done, I believe it was in the 80s, called looking for Langston that his family approved the rights for which had him as a queer person. And so there were like little indicators that I was like, Okay, if the family trusted this film and agreed with this type of film was depicted him and his work, then I can write about his work in this way as well. Zorn Hurston, I think, in many ways, was one of those people where it's like it wasn't stated, but there were the things like the rumors, and so I kind of think about like that moment with Patti LaBelle on watcher habits live talking about Luther Vandross, and I remember she kind of got like backlash for saying it out loud. But I also was like, but that man lived his whole life not being truly who he was because of this. And this is his best friend and sister, in many ways, who is just like, I don't want another generation to have to have a Luther like I want the next Luther to be freer than my friend ever got to be. And so it is a very hard thing to balance. And I also remember Bruce verlanch also had confirmed it as well, but it was like their take on it was, well, how do we ever fix this problem, we can never say that this person dealt with this problem, right? And this person never got the chance to say that this was the thing that they dealt with their entire career and their entire life. So it is hard, but I think it's also one of those things where it's like, I would rather take the hit for it if it frees a bunch of other people from having to be constrained by it, and so it is a hard decision to make, but I think I just took the references and the clues and kind of just piece the stories together. But I also did talk about, like, some of this is not confirmed, so like, don't beat me up, yeah, but we have to talk about but we also do need to talk about it, because it's important that we. At least get to have the conversation, or else we never get to honor these people the way they should have been honored.
Traci Thomas 10:04
And I think also something that I was thinking about is like that rumor in black communities is part of our oral tradition in a lot of ways, and that these conversations that are happening and these stories that are being told, they're not always being written down or documented, especially at the time, right? So it's like, it's not the same thing as being like, Oh, Thomas Jefferson was queer, right? It's like, we know what that guy was up to. We have every plant he ever had, an enslaved person pick. We have, you know, like, versus, you know, the 1920s in Harlem. Like, a lot of these people were really well documented, but a lot of them weren't, and not necessarily their personal lives, especially so I do think that, like rumor, though, maybe not, your first choice of a source is not necessarily a bad choice of a source. Yeah. But on the flip side, like, did you ever come across stuff where it was like, this person, blah, blah, blah, and you're like, This is the only time I've ever seen this. Like, this can't be real. Um,
George M. Johnson 11:08
I think finding out, like, about county Collins wedding and like, Langton Hughes messiness and, like, it just was so messy. Like, I was the very so messy, kind of shocked a little bit, because I was like, we've never talked about this, like in community, and like, Dubois letter to Cullen blaming his daughter for her lack of sex. Like, sexiness.
It was like, I would say, well, like, how did we not how do we miss this? But I was like, they really left a lot.
Traci Thomas 11:38
Yes, they left up, there's a section of the Talented 10th that was really talented ninth that we missed,
George M. Johnson 11:47
really, really left out. And I found that like to be kind of, like, interesting and captivating. I think Gladys Bentley's story of like, you know, I'm reformed from queerness now, like, this was also interesting. And like, the rejection of her mother because her mother wanted a boy. And, like, right? Those stories, like, to me, I was just like, wow, this is a lot. And I also think, like, reading about like, Bessie Smith, like, I didn't realize how tragic her the end of her life was. And I also just didn't realize how tragic so many of the ends of their lives were. I think that was the most shocking part to me, was like, zorna Hurston being buried in an unmarked grave. Like, what? Like, yeah, we don't talk about that. And her writing a letter to the NAACP, saying, if y'all don't do something to protect the icons who created this culture. Many of us are gonna be buried in our market. She literally said it, and then it has.
Traci Thomas 12:45
And her friend, like showing up and like, putting the flames out at like, the last possible minute of her unfinished works, like, there's a book coming out in January of one of her, like, it's like, we wouldn't have, wouldn't have this. We really, we really, we wouldn't have her at all. But, like, even, even if you get one or two, it's like, there's a whole rich history that she had worked on in her life that we're still getting. Like, she died in 19 six.
George M. Johnson 13:13
It was, uh, I believe, like 70, oh, 71 or two. It was a very right around, yes, right, right. It's
Traci Thomas 13:21
like, that's almost 60 years ago. It is, yeah, 50 years ago. Like, it's just, it's really unbelievable. And I think, like, it's, I mean, I wonder if some of the like, tragicness of so many of their lives has to do with what you're talking about, like, where they couldn't live lives that they wanted to live, and that, that you know, takes a toll on you, and I would imagine, takes a toll on your ability to be, to sustain a creative life and a healthy life all at the same time, if you're if you're also feeling like trapped in many ways, right?
George M. Johnson 14:00
Yeah, and I think that that was it, like, it was a very interesting time for them, right? Because it's like when, and I oftentimes think about this, it's like when we think about, like, who our icons were, and, like, who our pioneers were. A lot of them didn't end up wealthy, right? They had a lot of visibility, but didn't have a lot of wealth. And so it was like a double edged sword of like even them not being able to live in their full truth. It also led to the many consequences of how they had to kind of live their lives silently, and they also didn't reach their full potential, because they never could reach their full potential, because they could never be them full selves. And so it was very interesting, I guess, like just in reading about their stories, and just seeing how many of them had to kind of shudder away from what their true identity was at certain points in their life, out of survival, yeah,
Traci Thomas 14:47
yeah. I mean, I think that's true for for this kind of cohort of people, and also onward. I mean, we did an Octavia Butler book this year on the for book club, and she didn't become a bestseller. Until 2020. Yeah, which is just like, wait, what? Like, not that that is necessarily like the metric, but it is a metric, and it's
George M. Johnson 15:12
real. Like, when you think about Baldwin and his books, it's like a lot of his books grew many years after he had passed right? Like, yeah, me, like, no to the native. Like, a lot of the sales, if you look at just the numbers, it's like, happened for most of them posthumously, right? Even though I've watched God, right? Like, yeah, that became a movie well after she had passed away, right? So it's like, a lot of that stuff, and even though I don't talk about her in the book, because she wasn't queer, but nella Larson and passing like passing, became a huge Oscar nominated thing almost 100 years after she
Traci Thomas 15:48
had wrote the book. I thought she was a rumored she was because
George M. Johnson 15:53
I couldn't, but you couldn't quite prove it. Got it okay. She wrote about the tone, the tones of her book clearly leaned into queerness, for sure. I could not find any, like, any even rumored, certifiable account. And she also left for the Harlem Renaissance and left the industry and became a, I believe it's a librarian and a nurse. And then she just literally, like, just disappeared. She disappeared. And many people think she went back to passing. And so they think she just left black community all together and just ended up living in New York the rest of her life as a I believe it was either a librarian or a nurse. I think it was a librarian, though, and just like, never went back to it. Like, never went back to being this big cultural phenomenon that she was with the book. None of it,
Traci Thomas 16:44
okay? I'm gonna pitch you a movie. Ready? It's called passing to Back in the Habit nella Larson goes back to passing, becomes a nun, goes to a high school, teaches him how to sing, takes him to a competition. It is, it feels like it would work. I don't know. I just I'm getting the vibe. I want to talk about audience. You write for young people. You're young, but you're not that young. How do you stay connected to what young people want? How do you know that you're doing it right?
George M. Johnson 17:18
I think the messages I get about all boys on blue keeps me, like grounded in understanding what the wheelhouse of what they want to understand and what they want to learn is about. I still, to this day, I just get tons of DMS and messages and emails just from young adults about how all boys aren't blue is helping them navigate life, and because I know what I aim for in that, and because I had historical presence throughout all boys aren't blue in the comparison analysis with where we are today, I know that the current work that I'm doing also kind of enriches like what I've already kind of built in the nonfiction space. I think nonfiction is still being built out in ya. How do we not make it boring? How do we not make it too cerebral? Everything is fantasy, which I love fantasy, but it's hard to compete fantasy versus reality, because escapism is always going to win out. But I think that there's a way to do nonfiction that creates a form of escapism, and I think I've been able to do that with all boys armblue. And so I hope that with Flamboyants and just some of my future work, that I'm creating a form of escapism, escapism, even within the realities of the stories and the complexities of our daily lives.
Traci Thomas 18:31
So I was a kid who loved to read, and I love nonfiction, and one of the things that's hard for me as an adult who works in books, as people are always like, what's the book that made you love reading? And like, I always say Charlotte's Web, because I do love that book. I think it really holds up still. But I never had the experience of having a young person's book that was really like something that I could love, that felt unique or special to me, because there just never was. It was either like those, like, National Geographic kind of books, or like I used to, like read parts of the encyclopedia because, like, I was just, like, interested in whatever the thing was. But as I see more nonfiction for young people, it makes me excited for a version of myself that is no longer actually interested in young adult but, like, I am because the idea of it, and I do have children, so one day, hopefully they'll get to read it, but I do think it's like such a missed opportunity, because there's so many curious, inquisitive kids. Yes, who I never liked fantasy, like, I just the stuff that they make now, I'm just like, you know, I mean, some of it's great, but, like, I I'm so glad that you are in the space, and there's other people who are doing it, but I think, like, like, young adult memoir is almost like, non existent.
George M. Johnson 19:56
It is a it's a pretty non existent space. Case. And I remember when we were looking for comps for all boys, I believe in the very early stage, we couldn't find any. And that's when we realized, like, Oh, this is that this is actually something that hasn't been really done, I think, like Lori halls Anderson's the speaker shout. One of them is the adult one of them is the young adult version. But either way, she took her adult memoir and then version, which beautifully done, but that like there aren't many more out there for young adults that are memoirs. And I hope that we get more, though, because it's like, clearly, always on Blue has shown like there is an appetite for it in the space, right?
Traci Thomas 20:40
And adults love memoir, so why wouldn't younger people like that?
George M. Johnson 20:43
Yeah, I just think, though, publishing is still relegated to the errors of the past, and so I think it just takes time sometimes with publishing to even get them to understand. I mean, like, Flamboyants doesn't really have a comp either. Like, there really isn't a book that has essay, poetry, illustration, history, plus, like, there really isn't, and so there really isn't a cop for it. And so I tend to make books that don't really comp well, because I'm trying to show the industry that there are other spaces that we can kind of go into. But it just moves slow, like, I would have hoped that by now, like, there would have been another version of all boys aren't blue by somebody else, right? Probably young adult space, um, eventually, like, my book's been used as a comp for a couple things, but it still sometimes falls into this fiction space. But right? I
Traci Thomas 21:36
think, I think what's interesting, the other thing that I we want, to talk about with you today is about book banning. And I actually think this is a really good segue, because I think something that I've seen happen, and I think, like very popular examples of two books that have been banned a lot are Fun Home and genderqueer, which are both not young adult books, but because they are of they speak to a young adult experience, they have been given to children, or kids have found them, you know, by amazing librarians or being in bookstores or whatever. But then the people who want to ban the books can say, Well, this has sex in it, or this has whatever in it, and it's because there isn't a there are a lot of nonfiction memoirs that are actually targeted towards young people that are telling these types of stories. It's like the kids want it. They want to read it, and they're gonna read what they want to read, you know, if it's in their library or whatever, or at their you know, wherever it is, they're gonna find even if it's not a lot of them are gonna find it like kids watch porn. What are we talking about here? But anyways, but I do think it's interesting, because I think there is a market for it, because these books are extremely popular with young people. Yeah, that's not really a question, but I do want to talk about book banning, because you have been famously banned. You have become an advocate and activist. You have stepped into the arena and really shown up to to say, like this is wrong. And one of the things that I really am curious about for authors whose works are banned is, what does it feel like like? Does it feel like absolute dog shit, or does it feel like a badge of honor, or does it feel like both? And you know, what is that like when you find out that your work is being banned? What is that like?
George M. Johnson 23:21
Yeah, I mean, I think in the early stages, it was kind of like a both thing. It was like a badge of honor, and it also felt like this is kind of wild, that I'm dealing with this, or that all of us are dealing with this, that any of us deal with this. I think, though, as we kind of have went through year after year after year, because now we're on year three of it, I think we just all have started to realize like this has nothing to do with the books. So it's like, I can't even be offended because you didn't read the book. So it's like, as much as I want to be offended, as much as I want to be appalled, I know you didn't read it, so it's like, I can't even defend it because you didn't read it. So you have no idea what's even in it, besides the passages that you use, the same passages that y'all been using and recycling for three years. I think the other issue that I have is like the same books are getting banned, but new books come out every year with the same topic. So it's like, it's not even like y'all are actively keeping right, keeping up with the new content coming out, because the same book keeping it up on the list. So you don't think, in three years that something else has come out that's similar to with similar themes, like almost on blue or gender queer that y'all aren't missing like. So it's a very strange fight in the sense that's like they would never be able to keep up with all the books that just come out every year. But I would say like to be an author who is banned. It just feels interesting at this state and at this point in time, especially with so many other issues going on in the country, I just don't think it's registering as high. I think education might register high, but I don't think book banning is registering as high as they thought it would. I think they thought that there would be a much stronger ideological fight around parental rights, simply because that Governor won in Virginia on it and I. Think that they thought that that was like, Oh, this is like an inroad for us across the country. And then when it didn't replicate, and then even Glenn youngkin had to go back on his own abortion ban, and had to kind of start to move away from being right to being back center, they realized like, Oh, that was just like a blip on the radar where McCullough had, McCullough not said, you know that parents shouldn't have the right to choose books or whatever. He said, he probably would have won that election, and this wouldn't have become one of y'all jumping off points that y'all thought was going to be some big thing that y'all can take out and replicate throughout the country. And I think now that's why the moms for Liberty has lost a lot of its teeth. We don't hear from them as much. They're not booked as much on TV. They don't get as much speaking space, and they just got a whole bunch of scandal within because y'all are attacking books that y'all probably should be reading because a bunch of your members are dealing with identity issues, and so as they start to unravel, I think we're starting to see like, oh, this was really about your own unwillingness to deal with your own identity conflicts, and it had nothing to do with your children, who are perfectly fine With reading these types of books and being able to process them. So that's just kind of where we are. I feel like always on blue, because maybe I speak out so much, it's still probably being attacked at a rate that most books have stopped being attacked at. I think I was just being in Cobb County, which is like a county in Georgia that went in Atlanta, went Democrat, like, it's not like it's a suburb. So it went like, right, 5347 dim or 56 so it was a closer County, but it still was a blue county that I just got banned in. So my book is still dealing with it. I am not seeing it as much with some of the other books, so I'm happy for that. I just think maybe they're just trying to take their last little last ditch attack out on me.
Traci Thomas 26:39
So right, right, right. Well, you, you know, you have to save the most just stupidity for black queer books. Do you get to hear from the kids at all, like with the work that you're doing? What are they saying about, about, not so much about the book itself, but like you being sort of, I mean, because you, I mean not that you're the face of this, but like you sort of are one of the authors who's really dedicated a lot of your time and energy to fighting book bans. So I'm curious, like, if the you hear from the young people I do
George M. Johnson 27:12
a lot, they're super appreciative of not just me, like with the book, they're just super appreciative that I exist, like the fashion, the heels, the makeup, the identity, the public, the public visual that they get, that they get to be able to say, you're like a hero to me, and I can look up to you, and I want to be like this. And I know that if George can do it, I can do it too. I think they're more excited about that, like, it's like the book gave us your story, but now we got to see what type of strong person you became because of this story we read. So we know that when we're going through these things, it'll also build our resiliency in a way to make us be able to look like you in our futures, you know. So I think it's more so about the fact that I've put myself out there, not just as an author, but as a totality of what my experience is and everything I've been through. It helps them navigate life, but they also get to look at a person who is continuing to do it, and it pushes them to be more comfortable with themselves, because they're like, if George can be this comfortable in a world that we know is attacking George, and I can be this comfortable, too. And so I think that's been the, I guess the most fulfilling part of this is seeing kids change their names because they read the chapter in my book about changing their name, or, like, owning their name, and seeing kids, like, really lean into their identity and lean into their fashion and lean into like, all of these other things because they see me do it. That's been what's most fulfilling about it,
Traci Thomas 28:43
that's amazing. I love that I'm like getting emotional the so I guess maybe two or three years ago, we did a banned books week on this podcast we did every single day, I talked to politicians, authors, teachers, students, the whole thing, and everybody always wants to know, what can I do? What do I do about book banning in my community, when we talked about this years ago, you know, show up at the meetings see what's actually being banned. Challenge people. Are there other things that folks can be doing, like, what do you see as the most effective thing? Because I do think people want to help, but it does sort of feel like, almost like hard to do. And if you don't have kids in the schools like that, can make it feel more difficult or complicated. So any advice you have for folks,
George M. Johnson 29:38
it's a daunting task. But like, you know, my mom got my book kept on the shelf. She went to a school board meeting and spoke on my behalf, you know. So it's like, okay, Mom, yeah. So it's like, we all have a right to whether we have kids in the school system or not. We all have, you know, a right to to show up to school boards. So we elect these officials, our vote like it's not only parents who vote on school. Board on who's on the school board, like you also vote on who gets on your school board. So you have a right to make statements about some of the things, the materials that you think that societally people should be reading, which is Black History and LGBTQ, right, right? So I think continuing to show up to school board meetings is super important. I think also putting out positive messages about the books after you read them, it goes a long way in deterring, like, some of the nefarious things that they say about the books.
Traci Thomas 30:27
But is that, like on social media, or just
George M. Johnson 30:31
like Tiktok, like I've seen people, you know, go on Tiktok about all boys on the blue and talk about, like, some of the negative things that have been said, how they read the book and how it's helped them in a myriad of ways, like to decipher things differently, you know. And so I think that helps. I think like the free libraries have helped, you know, creating free libraries, a lot of places have created like Student Resource Centers instead of like just having like libraries, because libraries are governed differently than a student resource center is so like creating student resource centers within school systems has helped or research,
Traci Thomas 31:06
oh, like as another thing has books, that has books because, like, not publicly funded, like donating it or something, because
George M. Johnson 31:14
then state funding, federal funding, that means those laws can apply to books that were given for Free, right? Like that would donate five people. And so I think, like, there have been a lot of other ways, but also, just like, people buying the book like that goes a long way, because I always say it's about access points at that point. Like, if they're going to remove an access point from the school, then we have to find more places for a student to be able to get it. And so if a book does well, then that means it can go into Target, and it can go into Walmart, and it can go into big box stores, and it can go into other areas, and it can go into tiny libraries, and it can go into the airport. But it doesn't happen if people don't support the books. And so sometimes shelf space that creates more access points also helps.
Traci Thomas 31:58
That's really interesting. What's the thing that you think people are misunderstand most about the book banning thing?
George M. Johnson 32:08
I think what's most misunderstood about the book banning thing is that people think we're forcing the books upon the kids like no one's forcing them to read these books. I think that's been the biggest misconception. Is like your child. If your straight white child wants to read all boys on blue, that's a different conversation you probably need to be having with your straight white child that has nothing to do with George's story in this book. But if your child is interested in reading about the navigation of a young, black queer teenager through their identity journey, then your child might be having an identity crisis that you should be having a conversation with your child about not thinking that my book is making them this way. And you always say, I have been forced to read heterosexual books my whole life. I am not heterosexual. The reverse thing not going to happen. Your child reading your book is not going to make them queer. It's not even going to make them curious. Either that's what they are into, or they're not, or they're already having this identity struggle and need the words to help them figure it out. So I think that's probably like the biggest misconception that and that they can't access the same type of material or information on their cell phone. It's very strange, because it's like, but they have cell phones, like, right? Like they're on Tiktok all day, like there are just too many other places for them to access some of the same things that we're talking about in our books, whether it's themes of racism, misogyny, homophobia, whether it is sexuality and gender and identity, all of those things they could Google. They could Google, like, it's not like, you Oh, we removed the book. Now, my child's not gonna see this ever, and it's like, but all they gotta do is cut on MTV. Like, it's a very it's a nefarious argument to begin with, because it's like, books are not the only way that we learn so well,
Traci Thomas 34:04
right? Well, and if you take a lot of the information that you get from, like, the book world, it's that nobody reads anyways. So, like, the idea that, like, this is the, not only that this is the only place, but this is, like, the place kids are going to learn about it. Like, maybe there are kids, you know, I was afraid I was a reader. But also I didn't have a cell phone when I was 10 or 15, and I didn't have, like that, like, we were barely on the internet like that, because it was like, AOL.
George M. Johnson 34:33
Some of the complaints has been, you know, have been like, Oh, my God. Like you talk about pornography in the book and how you learned about sex and pornography. And I was like, Well, yes. And also that was before the internet was rampant with it for free. Like this was during a time where you had to download it and go through hoops to actually get to it. So think about 20 something years later from when I was a team, it's way more accessible. So like you're saying, I don't want them to. Read about it in a book, what it's like, but it's even more accessible than it was for me. So they should read about it in a book to gain a context of why learning that way isn't a proper way to learn about our bodies and to learn about the navigation of that space. It's a very interesting argument. And then they're always shocked at the fact that, like, they send their kids away to college, and then we have all of these problems with sexual assault on campuses and consent, and it's like, well, you literally denied them books to learn about consent, and then we send them all away thinking that they're adults, and then we're shocked when they don't understand consent,
Traci Thomas 35:35
right? I mean, talk about, like, just being such a prude society, like books. I mean, the whole any, any depiction of sex is just so like policed in America, that, of course, people don't know how to have sex like and are not don't understand enthusiastic consent, because we're often taught that, like middling to not super excited. Consent is like, good. Like, that's like, what we see in movies and TV is like, people being like, reluctant and being like, this is a sex scene, right? Okay, I want to go back to to the to the book, to Flamboyants. But I did want to talk about that because band book Week is coming up and, yeah, you're like, I said, like, sort of like, the face of the whole thing, which, you know, thank you for doing that work. Because also, I mean, I must take away from your ability to be creative, like, it must be exhausting,
George M. Johnson 36:31
right? It is. It's been years, and that's why I was like, you know, it's interesting. Like, I'm trying to, even in the midst of turning a new page into a new era. It's like, I still can't get away from it. I'm not trying to run away from it. But, you know, it's like, I have a new book I want to talk about. And we didn't know what was going to happen this way, but it's like, of course, the new book comes out during during Book week. We could, I do
Traci Thomas 36:55
want to say yes, that though, when I asked your published publicist to come on, and I was like, you know, banned book week's coming up, so I'm gonna talk about both. To talk about both. And she was like, well, like, we want to talk about both, for sure, not just band book week. And I was like, Yeah, of course. And then I read the book, and on the first page of the poem, you start with banned books, so you did it to yourself,
George M. Johnson 37:13
because part of the reason of writing this was like, you want to silence me, so you're gonna have to silence everything I write then, yeah,
Traci Thomas 37:23
but I was just laughing at that, because I, like, as soon as I opened the book, I was like, underline. Okay, it's in the book. I can talk about it. I want to talk a little bit about the art, though. I want to talk about Charlie Palmer, how did you decide for Charlie to be your artist? Like, did you go through other artists? Or was that just that? Was it? Yes,
George M. Johnson 37:41
Charlie did the cover for all boys aren't blue, and I have been trying to work with Charlie again. We have become really good friends and everything over the the years. I mean, because it's like even the, I guess the the imagery is also attached to the book. Bands, right, like, right, right. This. Every time it gets banned somewhere else, the cover of the book is the first thing you see. So he also very entangled in the book bands because of this iconic cover he has created. And so I had been wanting to work for him for a while. And so we did have a different artist originally, and what I was seeing just wasn't matching what the images were. And so when we went back to the drawing board, I just kind of told the team again. I was like, Charlie is the person who I know. Like, when it came to all boys and blue and it came to what I wanted for the cover, he nailed it on the first shot, like it was perfect. I was like, He's going to read this and know exactly what I'm looking for. Like, y'all just have to trust me on this. But he's going to read it, he's going to see he's gonna it's going to trust me. And when he came back with his first set of sketches, everybody at the publisher was blown away. Like, just from the first set of sketches that he sent, it was like, yes, like, this is it. And then when he came with the final sketches, and we had to choose which one was the cover, it was just like, the Josephine Baker one was just so, yeah, iconic. It was like, yeah, like, this is this? Is it? This is what I saw in my head. This is what I've always wanted to, kind of like, put out into the world. Um, it feels like a next step forward for me, and like, just the evolution of what I'm creating. Because I do want the imagery to match the words, you know, and we're all boys on blue. It's like, you see that cover, and then you just enter this world. And with this, with Flamboyants, it's like you see the cover, you enter this world, but then like you're really living in the world. And then even the audiobook. We put music to the audiobook. Oh, nice from the people in the book. So it's like you get to hear them singing. You get to hear their words and music underneath me telling their stories. And so it just all became like this super immersive project that I'm super proud of.
Traci Thomas 39:44
That's awesome, that sounds amazing. Okay, I gotta get the audiobook now. Thanks for the tip. Is there anything that's not in this book that you wish could have been?
George M. Johnson 39:54
Um, that's a good question. I feel like. I feel like sometimes, as writers, we get nervous if the page count isn't long enough.
Traci Thomas 40:06
Oh, not as readers, we love a short band,
George M. Johnson 40:10
so the book being short was kind of scary for me, because it makes you feel like, Am I missing something else that needs to go in this book. But as I've reread it, and I was like, No, this is the book I wanted to write. Like, I wanted to introduce you to these people, so that you could be inspired by them to then go out and do some more research on your own. I think sometimes, you know, as writers, we try to in Zorro Hurston, I feel like I got a little bit of what she said in there, like, because I couldn't put the whole quote in there, because, laws. But she basically talked about, like, as a writer, you want to know everything when you're writing, right? But if you knew everything, maybe you wouldn't write. So sometimes you write knowing you don't know everything, with the hopes that you learn it later and then write again, right? And so it's like, maybe this leads to another book down the line where I do go deeper into some of their lives, right? And I do read more write more about some of their lives. But for what this was intended for, I think the purpose, I think I hit the goal that I wanted with this particular book. But I will say I think that was the only thing was like, is it too short? Maybe I should write a little bit more. Maybe I should. And it was like, no, no, this is exactly what I wanted. And so it's digestible, it's beautiful, it's easy reading material, and you learn a lot. So yeah,
Traci Thomas 41:30
I think that's right. I think if it was longer, I think it's I think it is the correct length. That's what I will say. Sure, if it was longer, it would also be good. But I think that it is really nice holidays. We talked about how you're busy with fighting, book bands. You talked about how you're developing things, and on the Hollywood side, you're a writer. How do you make time to write? How do you make time to do the book thing?
George M. Johnson 41:53
Yeah. I mean, it's tough, but you just have to be like, strict, like and dedicated. It requires, it requires weekends. I tell people all the time, like, you know, people think, like, oh, like, weekends. Why are you writing on the weekends? It's like, because if I don't write on the weekends, I may not write at all, because during the week there are meetings and there are other deadlines, there are other things too, and there are meet and book tour and this and that and this. So like, sometimes the weekend is the time for me to write. So I think it just requires a little level of dedication to saying, like, Okay, I'm gonna write for this many hours a day, and I'm gonna block off this time to do it, and then just being dedicated to doing it. And I think it's about like, how do you eat an elephant a little bit at a time? So it's kind of like, I take that approach to it. So it's like, I'm okay on days where I only write for two hours, right? It's about was that two hours meaningful and impactful when I did it? So there are going to be some days where I don't have meetings, and I can sit for, you know, three, four hour blocks and get almost 10 to 12 hours of writing done. And then there'll be some days where, well, based on this day, I may only be able to get an hour or two in a writing but it's about being okay with that and not like feeling guilty about it. Because I think sometimes we can feel guilty that we didn't do enough, and so I just kind of break it up and and like today, like I have to fly back to LA today. I think the flight between Chicago, because I'll have a layover in Chicago, the flight between Chicago and LA is four hours and 30 minutes. Well, that gives me at least two and a half hours of writing. Hours of writing, two and a half hours of rest. So I'll sit on the plane and I'll make sure that two to two and a half of those hours I get something done. So it's about finding pockets of time.
Traci Thomas 43:32
And when you are writing, how do you like to write? Like? Do you have snacks and beverages? Do you have music? What are like some of your ritual? Yeah,
George M. Johnson 43:40
I I used to write to music a lot. I don't write to music as much anymore. Unless I'm on an airplane, then I write to music or I'm in a place where no TV, but if I'm in a place with a television, then I usually just put on, like shows that I already know all of the episodes. So like, Living Single is usually playing in the background, girlfriends is usually playing in the background. Um, MTV catfish, because I know all of those episodes is usually playing in the background. The other show, Major Crimes, Brazilian isles, or lifetime and Castle, like they have, like, a marathon every day on lifetime that I just put on because I know how all the episodes and so I don't have to, like, super focus on them, because I already know which parts I like which parts I can ignore, but yeah, I just write to reruns. Like I really do write to reruns every single day. I know what my show blocks are, and it helps, because it's like, I don't have to fully be in tune to know, like, Oh, this is my part. Like, I can just stop and watch my part laugh and then come back to it. And if it's late, late at night, then I write to the Golden Girls.
Traci Thomas 44:39
Okay? And what about snacks and beverages? This is very important. Um,
George M. Johnson 44:43
snacks and beverages, I have been eating hot cheese popcorn lately. Okay, I've always liked hot cheese popcorn, but like now I have, like, never hot whole case of it in the house. So hot cheese popcorn has been my thing to write and eat. With sparkling water. I do like sparkling water, so I usually sparkling water and hot tea spot for it are, like, my go to, I try not to. I used to write tipsy and edit sober. But I'm getting older, so it's harder to do that. But every now and then, like, if there are certain like, I'm working on, like, the proposal for my adult memoir, and so there are some parts in that that are just hard to write through. So I will drink, like, Prosecco when I'm writing very, very hard parts to kind of just lower my ambition just a little bit so that I can push myself through them. Because sometimes it's just hard to be fully sober when you're about to, like, really, really lay out really, really extremely traumatic things. And so sometimes you just need something that just lowers you, just a little bit, like, a nice little glass of either Sauvignon Blanc or Prosecco. And then I'm like, Okay, I could do this and then go into it and just kind of free flow it and get through it. So, yeah, okay, you
Traci Thomas 45:58
mentioned an adult memoir. How does, how are you thinking about the difference between adult audience and young adult audience?
George M. Johnson 46:06
Um, interestingly enough, I am not thinking about the difference. I am approaching it that we all have a inner child and a young adult that still exists within us. And I write to all of those people, and that's pretty much thematically, that's how the book is set up, where, which once, once you once we sell it, and you see the description of it, then you'll be like, Oh, okay, okay, um. But thematically, I felt like, even when people ask me, like about all boys on blue. I was like, well, it wasn't really written by me at 33 it was really written by five year old me, 10 year old me, 15 year old me, and 20 year old me, like, that's who wrote that book. It was all of those versions of myself that never had the words. I just now at this age, have the words to tell all of those versions of myself story. And so I feel the same way with the adult part. It's like me now talking to myself at the end of all boys, I'm blue in many ways, and kind of like going through this process of my adulthood while also still holding sacred, like the young adult that was living the second adolescence while I was an adult because I didn't get to fully be myself as a teenager. So I made a lot of mistakes between the age of 21 and 31 because I had the social awareness of a teenager, because I didn't get to date, I didn't get to do things that most teams got to do. So I had to learn all of that while being in an adult body with an adult age, and you get treated differently, because people are like, Well, why are you making that mistake? And it's like, well, because at 27 I'm really 17, right, right? And so it's about kind of like processing it that way and writing about it from that space.
Traci Thomas 47:55
What's a word you can never spell correctly on the first try? Um,
George M. Johnson 47:59
juxtaposition? Is it? Juxtaposition? Sure, I have an idea is either juxta, I think it's juxtaposition. Yeah,
Traci Thomas 48:16
okay, for people who like Flamboyants, I know in the back of the book you have some of your some of the research that you did, but what are some other books you might recommend to folks that are in conversation with Flamboyants,
George M. Johnson 48:30
I think the greatest book that one could Well, like I said, nella Larson's passing is a great one, because it kind of gives you the obsessed with That book problem Renaissance. I talk about lilies and Jade by Bruce Richard, Bruce Bruce Nugent, who is also profiled in the book. But I think the most important book is the new Negro by Elaine Locke. That's going to be the most. That's going to be the key. Because as Interestingly as it is, and I didn't plan it this way. But, like, my book is almost 100 years coming out after that book, because I think it came out 1925 so it's like, you know, it's beautiful in many ways that I'm paying homage to these people who were who put together one of the greatest African American texts, or just texts in general, we could say that this country has ever seen. And so I think the new Negro kind of set you up for now, like this version of telling their stories and kind of profiling them, and in a way, that's different.
Traci Thomas 49:28
Yeah, did you read the new Negro book about him? Like that came out of heaven?
George M. Johnson 49:35
So I read parts of it, because I had to do clearly, research on him, so but I didn't get, like, to just sit and just read him. I
Traci Thomas 49:43
mean, I've heard it's great. I think I've won the National Book Award or something, but it's major. It's like, it's like, 800 pages or something. Yes, it's huge. I remember being like, Oh, I'm interested in that. And then seeing it in the bookstore and being like, for another day, another day when I have time. Huge book. Okay. Well, I have one last question for you. If you could have one person dead or alive read Flamboyants, who would you want it to
George M. Johnson 50:08
be? Oh, that's a good one. Um, I feel like I always say County, but I think it would probably be Langston Hughes. I just think that like he just had such an interesting story. Like, I just, like, he, like, if anybody deserves, like, a biopic, head, like, then Hughes, like, he knew everybody. Like, who would you cast? He knew everybody. Jeremy Pope,
Traci Thomas 50:37
okay, you got that right, so you're working on it already. Maybes, I think would be like. So good, yes, so good. I will. I will be first in line for that. So whenever it's done, I'm I will be ready to watch. I will be at the grove for my little popcorn. Never
George M. Johnson 50:58
know what I'm working on. Just know I've already started thinking about, okay, people who need to play certain people. Oh, my God, I can't wait.
Traci Thomas 51:09
Okay, okay, okay, okay. I have to temper. I know how Hollywood is. I have to wait. But I am very excited. All right. Well, everybody, you can get George's book Flamboyants, the queer Harlem Renaissance, I wish I'd known it is out on September 24 put those pre orders in George. Thank you for being here. Thank you so
George M. Johnson 51:31
much. Yes, a great reprieve to all the writing I need to do tonight.
Traci Thomas 51:35
Have fun writing. Get your popcorn. And everyone else, we will see you in the stacks.
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