Unabridged: What Makes a Book Cover Pop with Luvvie Ajayi Jones - Transcript
Today we are joined by author Luvvie Ajayi Jones to discuss the all-important topic of book cover design and book marketing. Luvvie regularly works with aspiring new authors through her Book Academy, guiding them all the way through the publishing process. We also play a game where we predict whether or not a book will sell based on the title and cover (see the covers here).
TRANSCRIPT
Traci Thomas 0:00
Hello and welcome to another bonus episode of The Stacks Unabridged. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I am joined by four time New York Times best selling author, Luvvie Ajayi who you might also know as a speaker. She is a professional trouble maker. That's the name of one of her books. She also has an incredible resource for authors and writers called the book Academy, where she will help you take a book from an idea all the way through the publishing process, and today, she and I are digging into cover design. We're talking about what makes a book work, what makes a book flop, what is a great cover? How you can know if your book has a great cover, it's a really fun and interesting conversation, and it's for all of my subscribers over on substack and members of the stacks pack on Patreon. Okay, that's enough for me. Let's get to my conversation all about cover design with Luvvie Ajayi You all right, everybody, I am so excited. I think this is the first time we've ever had an episode that 100% came from threads. I feel like this is the real like proof that threads is alive and well, I am joined today by Luvvie Jones, who is a four time New York Times best selling author, a professional disrupter, a book genius, also with her book Academy, and just like an overwhelmingly interesting and fun person. So Luvvie. Thank you so much for being here.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 1:45
Thank you for having me.
Traci Thomas 1:47
I'm so excited. So let me tell the folks where this came from. On July 3, you threaded out a thread that said, over the last five years, I've studied books and book covers, and now I can tell whether a book will sell or tank based on its cover. I haven't been wrong yet. I have access to book scans, so I can grab numbers. Whenever I just saw a cover announce and I immediately went, ooh. Emoji face, it's gonna bomb. And I hate that. I know that the color fonts and overall cover graphics are not good, and their ideal reader is not going to pick it up. Melty emoji face, hands over the eyes. Emoji face. This sparked, obviously my interest as a book person. I'm not a writer. I talk to writers. I think about books. I obsess over covers. I felt like we had to do this. So here we are. We're gonna start by talking about book covers. We will also talk about the book Academy. What is your overreaching theory about book covers like? What is your thesis? What are you seeing about books that people are not
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 2:51
so you know that whole like, do not judge a book by its cover thing, completely false bullshit, completely opposite. A book cover exists for the sake of somebody seeing it and being intrigued enough to pick it up and then look at the back to read what the book is about, right? So I think about books like this, everything about a book gives you a chance for the next step. So the point of the cover is not that the cover will convince you to buy it immediately. The cover convinces you to look at the description. Description then gets you to buy but there are a lot of times when people never pick up the cover or pick up the book to even read the back, because the cover is terrible. It does not align, it does not speak to them, it is boring, it is terribly done. It has no contrast. So then people never read the back. So for me, my book covers have been super important in the ways that I have publicized my book. So for me, it's like your book cover got to be tight, and if it's not, whoo, good luck.
Traci Thomas 3:54
So what makes a book cover type?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 3:58
Yeah, a book cover is tight when whoever you want to read it sees it and goes, I'm interested. So one, when you're writing the book, you being clear about who the book is for and who you want to pick it up is important. Then, when designing the cover, whoever that is that you pictured in your mind needs to be able to see it in this in a sea of other books and go interest peaks. So what makes it good? One a book cover where the title and the cover visuals themselves match. So for example, a grief memoir should not be like rainbow sunshine and yellow palm trees, like you're gonna be talking about grief, make sure the cover fits that tone, and make sure it has that alignment. So if it's about grief, give it a jewel tone. Give it some sort of dark color. It doesn't have to be depressing, but it needs to be like, rich and dense, like I wouldn't picture. Think as a grief memoir, which, again, there's exceptions to every rule, right? Yes. And one of those exceptions for, like, something that talks more about grief, is the book by Jeanette McCurdy,
Traci Thomas 5:10
oh, yeah, I'm glad my mom, I'm glad my mom died, correct?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 5:13
Like, that's an exception, but, like, for most other things with that topic,
Traci Thomas 5:18
but it's not an exception, because I would argue that that book, while it is about her fucked up Mom, it's a comedy book, and you do get that it's gonna be fun and upbeat a little bit, because it's yellow and pink and her face. So it's like the contrast there, you know? So I think this backs up what you're saying, even though it is like the title is contrasting to the to like the overall thing. But I do think when you pick up that book, you know, I'm getting a tongue in cheek thing about a fucked up family. Like, clear.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 5:53
RRight. Because she's a comedian, right? So she can get away with that. She get away with that because usually, most people who are talking about having messed up families, those books shouldn't be pink, right? Comedian is why that still aligns, because then also, okay, yeah, light airy. I'm a comic. I can talk about something depressed and make it funny, yeah, most of the people who are talking about sad things don't make it like look like a Hello Kitty book, you know what I mean. And then other things that make a book cover good is it needs to feel timeless, yes, so don't date a book cover by putting something on it. So imagine if I was writing a book about tech back in 99 and I put one of the Apple computers. Yeah, that had the that was like, lime green and teal, yes, yes. Instantly let you know when I wrote that book. So a good book cover is timeless, and then it just does not have janky graphics. So it shouldn't look cheap. I see some people's book covers, and I'm like, did you do this in Microsoft Paint? Why does this look? So booty, right? And you'll be so surprised how many people don't invest in a good book cover, even traditionally published people, there are times when you're like homest Did you find to put this thing together that I could have put together in three minutes and I have zero graphic design background?
Traci Thomas 7:19
Yeah, yes, yes, there. I mean, we're gonna play a game. I put together some book covers for you to tell me they're all the books are not out yet, okay, so because I know part of the thing is that you then check up after the fact to see how the book does. So I want to get you on record. Let's do some book covers. Every single book is traditionally published. I didn't do any self published books, so I feel like those are sort of two different worlds too. It's like not there to compete. And I think what I saw you say in that thread that started was that you're really more in the nonfiction space when it comes to this. Do you have any like sense about about fiction covers, like, even just as a reader, or as a person who just like sees books? Like, yeah, is there anything that you see going on in that space?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 8:03
For fishing covers, I really like covers that, like, intrigue my imagination, where something about the cover takes me there already. So, for example, A Love Song for Ricki Wilde by Tia Williams, phenominal cover. I love that.
Traci Thomas 8:17
Such a good cover.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 8:18
I love that cover because I'm instantly like, Oh, this is sexy. Like, the cover is sexy, okay? And it's not even, like, it's not gratuitous sexy. It's just like, it's giving me dark, it's giving me mood, it's giving me the jazz vibe. Yes, perfect. The use of color, the use of font and typeface is so good. I'm like, that's a cover, right there. That's it, yeah,
Traci Thomas 8:37
YYou know. And she, her background is in magazines, and so I bet she, I mean, I've interviewed her before, and I've talked to her about how great her covers are, and I bet that some of that is her being like, it's got to sell visually, like her understanding what a page should do and can do from working in print magazines,
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 8:56
yep, yep, yep, yep. Like her covers are always amazing, because I've read, every one of her books, they're always incredible,
Traci Thomas 9:03
so good. A lot of authors I have heard say, you know, I don't have say in my cover or like, they just give me options, and I don't get to, you know, it's my first book, and so I don't have any pull at my publisher. What do you say to those people?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 9:20
So I'll give you a story about not having pool. My first book was coming out. So my first book, I'm Judging You The do better manual that I got that deal in 2015 and then 2016 is when it came out. The first four covers I was sent Traci. Atrocious is an understatement.
Traci Thomas 9:44
Okay? What it describes sort of the vibe. Because the cover that we end up with is sort of this, like, kind of swoop it's like white, ish Gray, with sort of a swoopy font in black. There's a smiley face, like Winky smiley face in red. Your name is in red. Everybody who's listening. I'm gonna make a slideshow to put with this. You can see all of the covers just because it's too complicated. But we end up with a very clean, red, black and white situation, very clean. What did they pitch you in the beginning?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 10:14
Oh, my God. Traci, so the first version of the cover, which at that point I didn't even realize they were already working on my cover, they just like, one day popped up. Was like, by the way, we have the first two drafts of your cover. And I was like, oh, so I opened my email. The first cover was turquoise, and all it had on it. On the cover was, I'm judging you. And then my name was at the bottom of that, in lime green. And I was like, first of all, have y'all met me? What? What is this? So that was already bad. And I was like, immediately, no, this is the most generic looking, none of it. The thing too, for those people who have platforms, is that you want, even though you want people who don't know you to pick up the book, you want the people who are familiar with your work, to feel like this is a continuation,
Traci Thomas 11:03
to recognize you.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 11:04
Recognize you. A turquoise cover with lime, with my name and lime. Green was the opposite.
Traci Thomas 11:09
Red was already your thing.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 11:11
Red was been my thing. Red is my thing. Okay, that is my signature color. So in the second cover was black with a brown hand, no, given a thumbs down, no, and it had a pink nail and had a Pink Starburst with my name on it, no. And I was like, immediately, no. Once again, have y'all met me? What is this random hand? This random brown hand that's given thumbs down? And then the, I think the tagline at that point was lessons, lessons in culture, games, social media, something like that. And it was in yellow, okay, so, a black cover, brown arm, pink spot, and yellow font. And I was like, Who are you? What is happening? One thing I knew was I didn't want to be on the cover of my book. Because, okay, I knew from jump, I did not want to be on the cover of my book. You put me a black woman on the cover of a book, the only people who will pick up the book will be black women. No, I love and I write my books for black women. First is my first, like, primary avatar, because I'm like, I always want me to be the ideal avatar, knowing that other people will buy it and really loving the fact that other people buy it. So I didn't want to limit that. If you see me on the cover of this book called I'm judging, you're gonna be like, Okay, it's only for black women, and it's not. It's really for everybody who has humor. So I insisted. I was like, Y'all, I can't be on my cover of my book. They're like, No, no, we're gonna we think we should try it. So they sent me one version of my book that was me from a photo shoot that I did with one of my friends. I was wearing, like, it was like in the snow, and I was wearing, like a cupcake hat. No, literally, they put a picture of me in a cupcake hat on the cover of this book that said, I'm judging you. And I said, it got so bad. I finally said, listen, we're so far from where we need to be. I am going to fly to New York next week. I need everybody who's involved with this book, the cover designer, my editor, my agent. I need them to be at the table, because we got to talk about this. And I want people to remember that at this point, I was not in New York Times bestsell. This is my first ever book. Whether or not I thought I had the leverage or the power to do this, I still did it because it was that important to me. I think if there's any Hill to die on as an author, if there's any place to be, type A and anal. It is your cover, because you're going to spend three to five years talking about this book, holding it up next to you. If you don't like it, it will reflect you'll be like, oh, so if there's any thing that you can wield, any sort of listen, I know I've just got here, I know I'm new, but this is so important to me that I want to make sure we get it right. This is the hill to die on your book cover.
Traci Thomas 13:49
I just want to second this, because I do not write. I'm not a writer. I am a reader, and I read a lot of books, like 150 books a year. Okay, if your cover is not interesting to me, a person whose job it is to allegedly not judge a book by its cover, I will not pick up your book unless I know who you are, like, unless I know unless you have name recognition to me and has a have proved yourself as a writer on the page. To me, yep, your cover is so important. I have a friend who wrote a book. Her cover design process was a nightmare. She was very upset about it. I finally just said to her, I said, Listen, tell them to push the book until you get a cover that you like, Listen. She was like, I can't. I already pushed it first that. I was like, push it again.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 14:38
Listen, literally, before I got on this, this recording, I was talking to one of my clients, we are going to be asking for her publishers to push her launch, because they just sent her a new round of book covers, and they're all atrocious. They're so bad. And I'm like, will you be proud to stand and hold this book for the next three to five years? And she's like, No. Well, one month delay. A is better than you hating this product that you have to be full chested behind. So I was like, Oh, absolutely not. You can't move forward with this.
Traci Thomas 15:09
Do you think that cover or title is more important?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 15:14
Um, oh, that's good. I think a bad cover and a good title is still, oh, I don't know, that's tough, okay, so I'll say, like this, I'm a visual learner, right? Yeah, so I need to see what I'm about to do or buy like I'm very visual, so I make my decisions with visuals more probably more, right? But if you had to pick, let's say bad cover, good title or bad title, good cover, good title, will win over, and the reason, yeah, yeah, good title win over. I'll just have to grin and bear it. But if the cover and the tagline are killing Yeah, I might, and somebody else has already vouched for it and say, ignore the cover. The book itself is good. I am willing to take that thing, but if it's like good cover and bad title, I don't trust the content for real.
Traci Thomas 16:07
I think I would go with a really good looking cover, even if the title was bad, because I think a lot of books have bad titles.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 16:15
Yes, a lot of books do have bad titles, and that's also why I want to cover and a title are good. Oh, it is.
Traci Thomas 16:25
Have you seen this fiction book called God of the woods? No, okay, I'm gonna send you a link to it really quickly. This wasn't what I was gonna talk about, but I just think that this cover and this title are out of this world.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 16:40
Oh, I see it. Oh, just
Traci Thomas 16:43
like, What is this stuff? What is that pink blood?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 16:47
Love, this
Traci Thomas 16:49
is so good. Yeah,
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 16:51
I'm instantly intrigued. I'm like, I want to find out what this pink drip is. This is so interesting and great. The font is fantastic. Oh, yeah. Like, see, that's what I'm saying. You can, here's the thing is, you can have both. You can have a good title, tagline and cover. It is possible. Like, my books are an example of that, like, but I think, I actually think it's easier to have a good title, I mean, and cover. Because here's the thing, the cover is not even about how busy it is or how many elements are on it, because the elements can be simple. It can be very simple. But if the cover is built in a way where one the title is not competing constantly for attention and is the right color scheme, and I'll tell you more about colors, okay, it's the right color scheme. It works better because instantly Color Psychology needs to be in play. So colors, let's talk about color,
Traci Thomas 17:47
talk about it, yeah,
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 17:49
colors matter, right? There's a difference between a book that is navy blue and a book that is pastel pink. Instantly, our ideas about both books are different. Yeah, right.
Traci Thomas 18:00
so what do you think a navy blue book? What does that say to you? I have ideas what it says to me. But like, what do you think about Navy
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 18:07
navy blue has given me business. It's given me. It could be a grief memoir, because I know a couple that are navy blue. Navy blue is good for, like, things that says this is authority. It gives authority. Yeah, yes. So if you're writing a wellness book, maybe not navy blue, because you wanted to give empathy, not authority, right? So if you're writing a book about wellness, about heart, yes, you can include, now, you can bring in the soft yellows, the oranges, that's soft, but like you want the book itself to feel like you're taking a deep breath. I wrote a book called professional troublemaker that's about boldness, about showing up, about taking up space. It is fire engine red, red, right? Pay attention. It's saying pay attention. Take up space. Be bold, so you will notice it on your bookshelf or in the bookstores. Now imagine a pastel pink again. Keep on coming to this color because it's the extreme, but a pastel pink business book can still do well in but it is arguing against itself.
Traci Thomas 19:15
Well, it's also, I feel like pink is a particularly gendered color.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 19:19
It's a very gendered color. So you're saying this is a book just for women. Unfortunately, we think colors and then we genderize everything, so including color. But pink is one of those colors that's super genderized. You will hardly ever see a man whose book is pink if he's a cis man, right, and if he's straight, and if he's straight. So it's like one of it instantly gives you information about who and what is behind the book. Now, if you're like, my book is not just for a sub, sub sub category, then you're gonna have to balance it out with picking a call that mix that works. So I always talk about the train test. Does your cover pass? The train test. What I mean by that is your ideal reader, if they are holding your book on the train, will they be comfortable? So think about you being on the cover of your book. The person who's your ideal reader they can be if they look just like you. Absolutely. Are you good with that? That can pass a train test. But let's say you are a white dude on the cover of your book, and I'm a black woman and I'm on the train. People gonna be like, What is she reading? How does that work? Does it pass the train test? Can it be used in Starbucks? Can the person your ideal reader be reading this in Starbucks and not be like, let me explain, you know, right? Like, I've seen books where I'm like, I don't know who this is for, because if I was your ideal read, I'd be embarrassed to hold this. Because either I'm feeling like your book is like the cover is immature looking, or it just simply looks like, why would you be holding this?
Traci Thomas 20:56
Right? And there are books, I mean, I think the other thing like for readers to remember is like these books are signaling something to us, and that's okay too. Like there are certain books that I will just never pick up, because I it's very clear to me that it is not for me. Like those books, like the subtle art of not giving a fuck, like that esthetic is saying something very clear to me. Those books do great. They sell great. The people who want to be subtly not giving a fuck, they find those books, yeah. But for me, it's like, Oh, that is a signifier that. That is Traci. Don't pick it up. You're gonna hate it here. You're gonna hate it.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 21:32
And I actually think that's the thing. So a book should use strategic polarization to get to its right audience, right? So somebody who is not bold, who doesn't want to be bold, who is just like, I want to shrink in the background. They might see my bright red cover and be like that book is not for me, which is fine, right, right? I'm like, I'm looking for the people who are like. I want to either learn to be bolder or I'm already bold, and I need to hear that what I'm doing is not too much. So you can also use the book to actually carve out who is not for you, because then you can use it to tell them instantly. I already know it's not for me, which is fine. And so my ideal audience, my ideal reader, knows it so much for them that they don't have to doubt it.
Traci Thomas 22:13
Right, right, right, right. Okay. I want to go back to just like so we know what, what, what works right like, if the color and the font and everything matches the vibe. You're thinking about your audience. You're sort of thinking about, who do I want to be here? Who do I not want to be here, per se, or who do I want to let know they don't want to be here? Can you think of any books that you've truly loved where the cover was horrific, or any books that you've truly hated, but the cover was so good, you had to at least pick it up. No, no, it's never come to you either way,
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 22:52
because I when I look on my bookshelf, the books that end up jumping out at me, or the books that I bought because somebody recommended, all of them have decent covers. All of them have decent covers. So I even think I want you to look up Jenny Lawson's, um, which one any, any of Jenny Lawson's book? She's the blogess,
Traci Thomas 23:14
yes, yes. I know her. She's great.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 23:16
Jenny Lawson's book covers give me feral and unhinged, and I love them so much,
Traci Thomas 23:21
yes, and it is exactly what she
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 23:25
that's it. That is it, right? Like, Jenny's book covers are just so interesting and so her, yeah, they're so good. Any books that on my books bookshelf that actually retain and maintain and on my bookshelf, I think all of them are beautifully designed and have great content. I cannot find one book on my bookshelf that stays there that not given away or just forgot I even own, right? It does not have a cover that's decent. If the cover is bad, it's for me. It is. It stops me from connecting with it. And again, people do not recommend to me books that have terrible covers, right? So it's so I don't know whether it's a self fulfilling prophecy, where the books that are successful, that do well, are books that have decent covers, that align with their titles, which I think that's the case. The books that have bad covers never make it to the point of being perennial titles.
Traci Thomas 24:18
Okay, okay, let's play the game. I've got six I got six book titles. I'm gonna just put the link in the chat for you to pull up. Okay, I had put I thought I could drop it in, but I can't. So the first book, it's called, you'll never believe me, a life of lies, second tries and other stuff. I should tell only my therapist. It's by Carrie Farrell. It comes out early next year. Mm,
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 24:47
I like it. Her tagline is strong. That tagline is really strong. So the person I would look at this in the bookstore and really sit there debating whether I wanted to get it. Get it her tagline is doing the best work it can, lies, second tries and things I should I should only tell my therapist that is actually intriguing enough to make me forgive the fact that the cover is doing a lot. Yeah, it's doing a lot. It's doing too much, but that I liked, like they highlighted the tagline, because that might be what saves it.
Traci Thomas 25:19
Interesting, okay,
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 25:21
that might be what saves it,
Traci Thomas 25:22
so I tried to do two books, yeah, sort of in similar categories, just to try to compare. So this is the next book that's also similar. It is called scam Goddess.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 25:36
I love that title. I love that title. Yes,
Traci Thomas 25:39
scam Goddess, and it's this person has like, a podcast. It's called scam goddess, lessons from a life on cons, grifts and schemes. It's by Laci Mosley. It comes out September 10.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 25:52
It's going to do well, it's, why do you say the cover is phenomenal? Because the cover, the title, the tagline, like it is, I'm intrigued. I mean, immediately, like, I want to buy this book. And the cover with how, like, this little eye is peeking out. It's really cool. I think this book is gonna do, well, scam goddess. Like it's a win. All of it is a win.
Traci Thomas 26:13
Okay, okay, okay, this next book, these are sort of more like, well, actually, you should tell me what these books are about. This book is called American bulk essays on excess, and it's by Emily Mester, and it comes out in November.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 26:30
I don't love the cover. I get what they're trying to do, but I think the cover is too dark, like it wouldn't jump out at me in a book at a bookstore, even though they put American bulk and lime green. I don't love it. I think also, I'm sitting up here trying to figure out what all those different things are. It's hard to even detect what they are exactly, um, I think that one's gonna depend on how she markets. This, the cover, yeah, I don't know this. This one, I would be like, uh, you're gonna have to market the heck out of this, right,
Traci Thomas 27:05
right, right, right, right. I feel like, what is interesting to me about this one is I definitely feel like this book is saying to me, like, I am a smart writer. Like this is saying, like, this is not this. Is saying this is, like, literary, right? Like, it's not the same kind of writing you're gonna get in the scam goddess book, yeah? And I feel like that is very clear from looking at this, but I agree with you, it's a little it's like, what am I looking at? What's happening here? And I feel like that's not ideal.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 27:39
And I also think the title and the tagline are leaving too much to our interpretation. Right essays on excess what?
Traci Thomas 27:50
Yeah, right, like,
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 27:51
so the tagline needs to do a little bit more work. So for example, I wouldn't on a random Saturday when I go to my bookshelf looking for something to read, I wouldn't pick up American Bulk,
Traci Thomas 28:03
right, right? Yeah. And I think part of it is like, it's hard, because it's like, Is this about, like, obesity? Is this about overconsumption? Is this about, like, large cars and vehicles like, this is about, like, large items, or, like, a lot of items, yeah. Okay, so this next one is called how to tell when we will die: on pain, disability and doom by Johanna hedva.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 28:31
That drawing is curious how to tell when we will die, huh? And she used that pastel pink.
Traci Thomas 28:37
She used that pink, I know. I'm glad we talked, because this was
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 28:42
the reason why I wouldn't buy this. It's really depressing. So it's, it's asking you to put yourself in the mood of it. Literally, it's how to tell when we would die on pain, disability and doom. That feels really heavy, yeah, and the cover doesn't match it. And I know they probably did that on purpose. They were like, we're talking about death. Let's do the opposite color. But I actually think it does the opposite to me.
Traci Thomas 29:14
Interesting. Okay, let's go the other way on this one.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 29:18
Okay, what do you think?
Traci Thomas 29:19
Well, I so I think this book is signaling specifically to me, because I like really heavy books, okay, and I like the contrast of, like, we're talking about serious stuff, but I'm hopeful that this book on the inside is going to have some humor and comedy, like, it's like, the drawing is sort of like absurd. So I'm hoping that we're gonna lean into that, that this is intriguing enough for me that I would pick this up like the little whimsical stars. It's sort of telling me dark, but also you might like it.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 29:53
Here's the thing, how to tell when we will die, and with this kind of whimsical drawing of like, God. And everything. This would be great if it was satirical essays. Yeah, this would actually be great if it's satirical essays, like tongue in cheek, really kind of subser subversive like, again, my book is called I'm Judging You The do better manual, and it has a side eye and lollipop on it, and it's, it's a bunch of essays that's like, Listen, I'm side eyeing all of us. Yeah, if this book does not give comedy, or doesn't give humor, or doesn't really give some sort of like levity, I think it will betray its cover.
Traci Thomas 30:31
Okay, so to your original point, the cover should make you want to flip to the back. I'm going to just read folks a little bit what this book is about, in the wake of the 2014 Ferguson riots, and sick with a chronic condition that rendered them housebound. Joanna hedva turned to the page to ask, how do you throw a brick through the window of a bank if you can't get out of bed? It was not long before this essay, sick woman theory became a seminal work on disability by reframing illness not as a just a biological experience, but as a social one, how to tell me will die, expands upon head of his paradigm shifting perspective in a series of razor sharp essays that range from the theoretical to the personal, drawing from their experiences with America's Byzantine healthcare system and considering archetypes that call the psychotic woman the freak and the hag in charge, hedva offers a bracing indictment of the politics that exploit sickness to the detriment of us all in this radical reimagining of a world where we where care and pain are symbiotic. Hedva implores us to remember that illness is neither an inconvenience nor an inevitable inevitability, but an enlivening and elemental part of being alive. Okay, I feel like that is getting at maybe, maybe not satirical, but maybe different than how we think about disability. That's what I get from that. So maybe it works.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 31:50
Maybe it works. I mean, if it's considered humorous, I think that could work, because then the the thing being stabbed in the eye, somebody said it's very much in the in the vein of Samantha Irby, right? So here's, here's where, here's what I then know after reading this, here was what I would change. I would change the tagline. I would change that tagline on pain, disability and doom. Doesn't reflect that reaction, yeah, doesn't it doesn't reflect that description. So what I would have done would have been how to tell when we will die, give it some sort of tongue in cheek tagline, so then it can now tell me, without having to read three paragraphs, that this is actually going to be funny for me. We didn't find out that it's going to have humor in it until paragraph three, which at that point. Most people are not reading,
Traci Thomas 32:42
yeah, yeah. The blurb from Maggie Nelson does say it's propulsive, funny, generous, pervy and original, interesting. See that? Yeah, should be on the cover. No, it's on the back cover.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 32:54
See that should be on cover? I need to know off jump without having to navigate too much that this is not a book that's gonna leave me even more depressed, you know what I mean. So like, if we're gonna be tongue in cheek, if we're gonna actually have the humor, I think she saved the best for last. Yeah, she should have actually told us up front in this, you know, incisive collection of essays. Yes, Joanna is blank. So like, that's also where everything is supposed to work in tandem together. So like, where your your title can't finish, your tagline ends up where your tagline can't finish, your description, then continues your blurbs, and all of them have to be singing to speak to the same thing. So if I'm at the airport and I have three minutes to pick my next book, I don't have time to explore whether it was funny or not, right? I need you to tell me up front so I can be like, No, I'd go catch my flight. Is this the book I want to read? So I would bypass this book, Thinking it's not the book I want to read. Meanwhile, this whole time, it's supposed to be funny, and I'm like, dang, I missed that.
Traci Thomas 33:55
Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, next one. This is total, totally different genre type of book. It's called Kent State, an American tragedy. It's by Brian VanDemark, yep. It says I'm a white dude. It sure does. It comes out in August.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 34:13
It says I I'm a white dude. And I wrote this for white dudes, and white dudes will care. If I saw this at an airport, I wouldn't even pick it up.
Traci Thomas 34:23
This is my bread and butter. This is the kind of book. This kind of cover gets me every time. If you have a picture of a historic, I do. I love a historic, yeah, I love a revisiting of a historic moment. If you have a picture of an American tragedy, if you have an American tragedy as your tagline, I am interested
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 34:42
and see that's a good thing. I mean, because this, this signaled
Traci Thomas 34:45
Yes. When I first heard of this book, I just saw it in a catalog, and all I saw was the title and the cover. And I said, immediate email. I said, please send it to me now. Thank you.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 34:56
You're like, I need to shoot it in my veins.
Traci Thomas 34:58
But it does it exactly says. As a white person, a white man, writing about white American history, white America, I happen to know about Kent State, so I know that it has some more. You know details going on in there, but if you don't, it is signaling. But you know what? This is a great cover, because we both know exactly what is in this book,
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 35:19
correct. See, that's great, like, it's strategically polarizing, like, whoever this is for will instantly see and be like, I need it. I need it now. Give it to me. Whoever it's not me. I instantly was like, again, know that not for me, not for me at all, but, yeah, but I that cover lets me know what the book is doing, and that's ultimately one of the things that we need to do with our covers, I need to know what your book is going to do, so I can make a quick decision, quick decision, yes or no, it needs to be quick. Okay,
Traci Thomas 35:49
Okay, here's the last one. This book is called an open contempt confronting white supremacy in art and public space, by Irvin Weathersby, and it comes out in January.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 36:01
Phenomenal cover, phenomenal, phenomenally
Traci Thomas 36:06
good cover,
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 36:06
cover, like that cover. I don't even care what the book is about. I'm not want to have it on my I need it on my shirt. So good, okay, like this one of the ones that I will buy. I don't know when I'm gonna read it, but I need this book in my on my bookshelf, sitting there make me look smart. This cover is beautiful, like beautiful. The layout is fire. The art piece on the cover we get to see and enjoy it the way it's even like formatted, the way the text is in the lower half. Ah, feed it into my veins
Traci Thomas 36:38
just love that rose down there on the bottom right. I don't have no idea if it has anything to do with the book. I don't know, but it is that is like, that softness just calls to me. And like the clouds, the deep, the art is so good the font is the font is like, subversive with the artwork, because the font is giving you, like, George Washington. Like, yeah, this is America. And then you get this. Like, I think this is, I mean, this is my cover of next year.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 37:09
The texture they show on the piece of art is, like, whoever designed this, please. I need you to go to every publishing house start designing the rest of those covers, because this is stunning. This is Stunning. Stunning. They did that like, again, a good cover. I don't even care what the title in this tagline was. This cover was so good that I barely read what it meant. But it because it's so good, that's the value of a good cover. A bad cover makes you not want to buy even a good book. The bad, good,
Traci Thomas 37:40
bad cover makes you, makes the person who's potentially going to give you money, and makes them have to stop and consider a good cover is like, here is my Apple Pay. Just, do you guys take Apple Pay?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 37:51
Don't even ask me twice. You, in fact, take my money. Here you go. That's the that's the value of a good cover. Because, again, whether I care about white supremacy and art and public space. I know I want this book on my bookshelf, so one day I will go to it and pick it up and go let me see what this is about. For real, for real. But the cover was so stunning and so engaging that I was able to I it was a quick yes. The quickest Yes.
Traci Thomas 38:15
yes, okay. The other thing I do want to say about this book is that I think that the title is also really interesting. Yes, it is an open content. I don't know. I need to know. What do you need to know? What is an open contempt like
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 38:27
I just, I think, I think it's fantastic. And also the tagline tells you confronting white supremacy in art and public space. I know exactly what this book is going to be talking about, right? So even before we actually paid attention to the cover, I mean, to the to the title, the cover had me, and then when you pay attention to the title and the tagline, it is all art, for sure, because now you don't have to guess. You don't have to guess. And I actually am interested in this book, yeah, once you even think about that, it's well done. Well done. Yeah, well done.
Traci Thomas 39:00
Okay, we're gonna transition now. Thank you for playing my game. That was really fun.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 39:03
I love that game. That's really fun.
Traci Thomas 39:06
Okay, so you have your sort of I got, I mean, what do you call? It's called the book Academy. Is it book coaching? Tell us what it is, what you do, why someone wants it?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 39:15
Yes. So it's the book Academy, which is a, I call it a platform to help aspiring authors and established authors get their books in the hands that actually want to read it through their getting clear on their idea creating amazing titles and covers that can honor it and then marking in them properly. So the people who are waiting for your book? No, it's for them, because I think a lot of books are written. They might get the title and the cover right, but they don't sell it right. I just want to make sure good books are written and that good books sell well, that's really what it comes down to. I make sure people write good books, brand them, well, sell them Well.
Traci Thomas 39:57
yeah, do you only do nonfiction,?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 40:01
mostly, mostly nonfiction. I have a few fiction people because I can speak very confidently to nonfiction. My children's book is the only fiction that I've written. So I can speak to kids books too. In that way, one day I will write a novel. One day I will I forgot about, Oh, listen, I'm gonna put it out there. I am definitely gonna write a novel one day. And yeah, because here's the thing I found out, after writing four New York Times bestsellers in eight years, I was my machine. Publishing is frustrating because it actually doesn't set people up for success in the way we would, we would think, right? So having been an author and learning by trial by fire for all this time, and basically building my own plans and strategy and hitting the Times list in four different categories, I've written two books for adults, one for teens, one for kids, all four of them hit the hit the Times list. So I was like, oh, okay, yeah, my formula works because I've done it for myself, and now I've done it for a couple of clients, but all the ways in which publishing is confusing, I'm like, let me help. Because what I want to see more of I want to see more books published by people who are not white men, and I want to see them actually do well. I just went to an invite only mastermind of best selling authors last week. Cool. To be in the room, you had to have either sold hundreds of 1000s of copies of one of your books or be a New York Times bestseller. I've done both. In that room there were 40 people. Wow. Six of us were women. Two of us were black, no. And the other person who was Black was my friend who I brought in the room, Tiffany Alicia, another genius. And I'm like, This is why I created the book Academy, because we simply don't qualify for those criteria often, and that's for nonfiction, because a lot of fiction authors like, you know, Tomi Adeyemi, yeah, yeah, soaring, right. But
Traci Thomas 42:05
even still, even, but even still, not a lot you know what I mean.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 42:09
So I'm like, my goal is to make sure more of us can be in that room, because 96% of books sell less than 1000 copies. Like this is self published books and traditional published books, by the way,
Traci Thomas 42:23
yeah, oh yeah, yeah. I mean, I had Lisa Lucas on the podcast, who was formerly the publisher, you know, her, yeah, pantheon. And when she was on the show, she said, if a book sells 30,000 copies, that's like an incredibly successful book for them, yes, yeah. And I just think, I mean, I think about that, like, not to be weird into my own horn, but just like, I have 50,000 followers on Instagram, and, like, the idea that, like, not even all of my followers would have to buy a book for the book to be considered in the life of a book, right? Like, yeah, how little?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 42:57
Here's the thing, when my first book came out, I'm judging you. Was not supposed to be a success. It was not supposed to sell the units it did, and when it did, because I put that thing on my back and I was like, I need this book to do well, because I know they'll help open more doors and publishing. When it did, I had a book that came out the same day as a celebrity who had 12 million followers on Instagram, and their book didn't sell as much as my my book did, right? I think what ends up happening is people will think, oh, because I have this many 1000 followers, I'll have this many book buys. No, your followers will buy. It'll be like 1% of your followers who actually support the book,
Traci Thomas 43:34
right? If you could change one thing in publishing, if you became the publishing czar tomorrow, what is the one thing you would change?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 43:42
I would change the marketing teams on the way marketing works in publishing.
Traci Thomas 43:48
what would you do? Or what's one thing you you think needs to change in that department? I have so many thoughts about book marketing,
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 43:54
so so many. One thing that needs to change? Just one that's so hard.
Traci Thomas 44:02
Well, you can say more than one. If you have more than one, I just don't want you to give up all your secrets. You know
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 44:07
I am not afraid of giving up the secret. Look, here's thing is, I already give a lot of free value, but I'm always like, whenever people are ready to actually do the work, come to me. Yeah, then come but in terms of marketing, I've already talked told you about covers. Do you know how much my clients battle publishers and just anybody in general, covers are always a fight where publishers have one idea of the cover they want, and you have another idea, and yours is actually the better idea because it's based in data. I'm a marketing and branding geek, right? You do not understand how much publishers push back on covers. I had a client who left her book contract because her her publisher couldn't reach an agreement. She was like, I don't need this. Wow. So if I, if there's something to change, I would, I would ask publishers to really you. Get branding experts in to help them with cover development, because it's rough
Traci Thomas 45:07
Yeah, yeah. I feel like, as far as marketing goes, like to I mean, I think this is your point about, like, getting the correct books in the correct people's hands. I think there's a real lack of imagination about who could or would read a book, who can and does read a book. And, you know, I think, from what I see so often, is like, there's only one audience that things are marketed towards, and they're or one audience is the framework, and it's marketed towards all audiences through this one style. Yeah, that's really frustrating to me, because I'm like, oh, you know this, like, for example, using this Kent State book that nobody wants to read. But me, I think there's probably a really great way to sell that book, because it's talking about campus protests and violence against students on campuses and like, that is very topical currently, right and like, there's a way to make that book speak to a younger generation, or a generation that's interested in the history of American protest and the violence of the state against the people and all of these things. You could probably find a way to market this book that isn't Brian Van der mark, white man.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 46:20
So here's the other piece, right? That book, even though it super appeals to you, that book locks out anybody, yes, who is not already a history bus, right?
Traci Thomas 46:33
Exactly. It locks out everybody else.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 46:37
It's literally preaching to the choir. Yes, the people who would read this book already knew about Kent State, yes. So this book is not about letting more people know about it. It's more about all the people who've already know, known about it, who obsessed with it. Just want to read more about it. Let's revisit let's revisit it. Because it does not this doesn't speak to Gen Z. Would not Gen Z would not pick this up. So again, it's speaking to, to your point, the very narrow people that publishers know how to market to, it's a miss. It's why, oftentimes, when they get diverse voices and diverse authors, those authors books don't do well, not because the book itself wasn't good. The publisher does not know how to speak to somebody who's not the middle aged white dude or the middle aged white woman. So then the book, the book tanks, and they go, huh? See, books are black people or brown people don't work. Meanwhile, it's like, no, no, no, you try to take my book and only talk to an older white man about my book, and then the people who were supposed to buy my book didn't realize it was for them. So that lack of setting us up for success is in itself, a an issue that I think publishing reflects in so many different ways. And that's why, like, usually I'm like, let me help let me help you demystify this and let me help you get through the noise. So like, oftentimes, like, my clients will come to me when it's time for them to finalize their cover, and I will help them drill down on like, here's the right color, here's let's pick this font for you. So because once the cover is locked, you're gonna have to sit with the whether you like it or not,
Traci Thomas 48:10
right, right, right, right. Okay, I want to do a quick shift, because a few weeks, like last week, everything time is so fucked up. Last week as we're recording, you put together a sort of like influencers call for Kamala Harris. It was called Platform power call. It was sort of in conjunction with the win with Black Women movement that organized. Has been organizing Since 2020 I just want to say they have been organizing, but they launched that call as soon as kala was announced, like the next day, other people have followed in their footsteps. You joined forces and did this platform power call. I want to know why you wanted to do that, why it's important to you to get influencers and content creators on board in this political moment.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 48:54
You know, it's probably for the same reason I write my books and do my podcast. It's for the idea of knowing and understanding our power and then wielding it in a way that's intentional and responsible about everything that I really do kind of falls into that is that, do we recognize how much privilege and power that we're walking with every day? So especially for those of us who have access to 50,000 people in one swoop, 497,000 in one swoop, that is so much power, and we take it for granted because we're always thinking about, Oh, are my followers growing so as Meanwhile, I'm like a room with 50,000 people as a stadium, yeah, yeah. Keep that in mind.
Traci Thomas 49:37
It's giving Beyonce. It's giving Beyonce. It's more of an arena, maybe somewhere in between, somewhere in between.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 49:44
So I was like, in this moment where we're going into a deeply divisive time, because election season's always insane. I wanted to make sure that those of us who are platform power people, people who are influencers, creators, who. Wielding these audiences that we, at the minimum, do no harm, and that, at best, we actually contribute to making positive impact. So I was like, oftentimes, everybody's running around scared, trying to figure out what makes sense, where they need to be looking to who to trust. I said, let me just distill all of that. Let us all do our I called it the secret meeting for content creators. That wasn't secret. Yeah. So my whole thing is, we now know who to look to. Yeah. We now know who to trust, how to battle misinformation, how to not be adding fuel to terrible fires, fake news fires. So that's why I did it. I just wanted us to get the information that we would need for this next three months to move forward confidently in posting, no matter what our niche is.
Traci Thomas 50:43
Yeah, I loved it. I have worked in politics for a little bit, like in a past life, and it was really fun to be on like I in the past. I've organized phone banks with people, virtual phone banks, like during 2020 we did a fun thing, but I think one of the things that I forgot, or maybe that I never had really thought about that. I think is really important, and I want to share it here, just because I think it's important for people who have a large following or don't. Is that, when you are combating the misinformation, never lead with the lie? Yeah, yeah, especially on social media, because it's so easy to just watch the first five seconds of a video, and it reinforces the lie. So you always want to lead with the truth. And I think, lead with the truth, yeah, lead with the truth, and then you can go back and debunk. But like that first sentence has to be, Kamala Harris did not XYZ correct, be like this or whatever. Um, I mean, yeah, I'm so grateful that you did it. I think it was really fun. And, you know, I'm thinking about what, what stuff I'm gonna do and all that, but just like having the resources of who to look to and and knowing that other people were excited about it, and like thinking about it, because so often I feel like, social media, people are like, told, Don't post about politics. Like, I get told all the time, why are you talking about politics? You talk about books. I'm like, baby books and reading are the most political shit we got. Like, nice try, but I do think that, like, there's this fear of saying the wrong thing, or like, you know, I don't want to weigh in on Gaza or whatever. And so it was a good reminder to be like, Yeah, we got to say stuff.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 52:18
And also, for all of us to keep in mind that here's the thing, is you wielding your power can still be authentic. It can still be in your voice, and you might not always get it right, and that's okay. Like, we're so often afraid of making the mistake that then we shut up, and then we do nothing, and then we're like, I just didn't want to make a mistake. Make the mistake so and you're talking to somebody who's trended on Twitter before, so it's not like, I'm telling you to go do something that I've never do something that I've never done. Listen you out here. And I think all of us like, no matter what it is, we typically talk about when we're always like, Oh, I can't talk about politics. Well, politics don't talk about you. I can't deal with politics. Politics is going to deal with you so and I think right now, us being trusted by the people who follow us, who have been um, consuming our content. That's a privilege that we can't take for granted, that in November, I don't want to be like, dang. I just didn't want to make that one mistake, so I ain't say nothing, man, say the thing. Say the thing. You're not sitting, you know, in the line of fire for real. The worst thing is people being mad at you online, okay? Like a day for, like, a day because they got no attention span.
Traci Thomas 53:22
Yeah, yeah. Well, Luvvie, this was so much fun. Thank you so much everybody who's listening. Just so, you know, I said it before, but everything we talked about today will be linked in the show notes. I will also include, like, a little slideshow of all the book covers we went through, just so that you can see them and you can I will also be linking to all of Luvvie social media, her website, where you can find out more about the book Academy, all of her books. And I will just say, little troublemaker makes a mess, which is her children's book, is extremely popular with the mini stacks. My kids, they love it. Oh my god yes, I have identical twin boys. They're four and a half. They sent the book to me when it came out, and I read it to them once, and it didn't hit. And then this, like, earlier this year, when they right, when they turned four, it was like, every night. We read it every night for like, two weeks. Oh my god, yeah, it really hit. Like, so it and I don't usually like, I don't pick my kids books. I just put it all out, and they can tell me what they want to read each night. And they were like, we want the Jollof rice. That's what they get. The Jollof rice.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 54:25
So, yeah, look, parents have been sending me messages for the last couple weeks, like, Yo, I'm about to hide your book, because this is officially getting to be too much, because they keep on picketed. I was like, I'm not sorry, and I said, but my second one has come now, may 2025 okay? They'll have a new story. They'll have a new story, right? The Jollof rice one. Literally, I've been getting so many messages, so I'm cracking up that you're like, they said the Jollof rice parents have been like, Luvvie, I need you to come out with a new one, because I'm tired of reading this one to them. And I'm like, I like
Traci Thomas 54:52
it, I like reading it, but I love the illustrations. I love it. It's fun. But people always ask me, like, Oh, what are the mini stacks like? And I can confidently. Say this one is mini stacks approved. For sure. Know what?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 55:03
I'm gonna need that, Traci, I'm gonna need you. Go ahead and do a little stamp that's like, mini stacks approved, so we can start using it like, we can be like, it's a New York Times bestseller, yeah, mini stacks approved.
Traci Thomas 55:13
Yeah. Well, I think you're on I have a bookshop list on my bookshop.org, and there's a list called mini stacks approved. And I'm pretty sure it's on there. I'll double check, but I update it every few months as they change, like with the season of their life. You know, anyways, everybody, you can get all of Luvvie books. Wherever you get your books. I read professional troublemaker on audio. It's fantastic. Luvvie narrates it. It's just like that one I really love, because it was reminding me of things I already knew, but I needed a reminder about, you know,
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 55:42
amen, one of those bookmakers, my proudest one. So I have two favorite books. I've done four books, but two of my favorites, professional troublemaker and little troublemaker. Oh, little troublemaker makes my heart smile. It's like I'm reparenting little me. Yes,
Traci Thomas 55:57
I love it
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 55:58
but thank you for geeking out with me and nerding out with me about books
Traci Thomas 56:01
this was so fun. Oh, my God, anytime, anytime. Well, thank you so much for being here and everybody else we will see you in The Stacks.
Connect with Luvvie: Instagram | Twitter | Website
Connect with The Stacks: Instagram | Twitter | Shop | Patreon | Goodreads | Subscribe
The Stacks participates in affiliate programs. We receive a small commission when products are purchased through links on this website, and this comes at no cost to you. This in no way effects opinions on books and products reviewed here. For more information click here.