Unabridged: The NYC Late Show with Kiese Laymon - Transcript
This Unabridged is a conversation with author and friend of The Stacks Kiese Laymon from our early show in New York City. We hear from Kiese about how he knows when his work is ready for an audience, and get intel on his forthcoming book. We also get into sports, hot topics, and the unmatched confidence of New Yorkers.
TRANSCRIPT
Traci Thomas 0:00
Hello, Hello, it's me Traci Thomas host of The Stacks here with another episode of The Stacks Unabridged, our exclusive Patreon only bonus episode. On today's episode, you're going to hear the Late Show from New York City's stop on the live in the stacks tour. I am joined by the wonderful, brilliant, amazing human being that is Kiese Layman. Alright, that's enough of that. Now it's time to enjoy my conversation with Kiese Laymon from the live in the stacks tour stop in New York City, the late night show full of all the mess you could ever want. Enjoy.
Hi, everybody, welcome. Welcome. I'm Traci Thomas, host of this bag. Talking about books tonight. Has anybody here read books? Anybody or write books? Well, great. We're gonna do all of that. chill vibes, but also fun and some hopefully some chaos some really bad takes prepare yourself mostly from me. But Kiese is also not to be trusted. And let me I'll bring out my guests. You all already probably know him. But if you don't, he's the best. Is that a good intro? He's, he's the best. He's written the best. He's one the best. He's the best. And he's Kiese Layman and come on out. Or don't he's leaving me hanging? Surprise. He's not here. Hi. Hi. Okay, ready? Round two. You guys are the Late Show. So who knows what you're gonna get okay. We're gonna try not to repeat. But we are going to repeat one thing. Do you have your microphone? Hello. Hi. Welcome.
Kiese Laymon 1:50
How you doing?
Traci Thomas 1:51
Like I haven't seen you kiss Hey, tell me about your first kiss.
Kiese Laymon 2:01
I'm just gonna tell you quickly. There was this Deaconess in my church. Tell telling you I will tell you it's gonna sound like it'd be a funny but like, this was it. Before a lot of women were rocking mustaches. She had one. She was nobody but it's telling me. She was so like. She was just magical. And I was like six. And I was a fat six year old and she used to always hug me tight. And I remember smelling the talcum powder should on her chest. One day we went to church. And she said, cat as my grandma. She's a cat. kickin fine. And it's the first time anybody ever called me fine because I was a fat six year old. And she reached down and she kissed me on my lips in front of my granny. And unnoticed boasts to be a bad story.
Traci Thomas 3:04
Yeah, I thought we were telling the fun one.
Kiese Laymon 3:05
That was fucking fun. Like, that was my I mean, I've had other older people kiss me in ways that did not feel good. But I use that kiss and what it felt like to get me I have a lot of terrible situations until I was like 11. So kissing me Well, her light moustache, talcum powder. Made me feel good. She Okay, other buddy be so my story.
Traci Thomas 3:33
And I'm gonna tell my I went to middle school. And in sixth grade, I had a boyfriend. His name was he's an actor now. And he had an older brother. And we were at a middle school dance. And I was approved because I am approved. just who I am. And we had not kissed yet, because we had been dating for three or four days. As in sixth grade, as you know, these things move quickly. And his older brother told him that he had to break up with me if we did not kiss at the dance. I know. And so we kiss at the dance but like, not like, like, and then he broke up with me a week later. Why? But here's the part that makes the story fun. For me personally, which this is that a real downer? I'm getting ready to go dark sorry, but you guys know I like like serious books in the show. He plays that's what he looks like. So he broke up with me because I wouldn't kiss him and then he ended up growing up looking like but also he's a really good actor. He like went to Juilliard and stuff and he's actually like, a super nice guy, but also Oh, why did he dumped me in sixth grade? Because I want to kiss him.
Kiese Laymon 5:06
We should have talked about first breakups too. Can we talk about first that was my first breakup? Oh, that was your any. I mean, I didn't have a girlfriend-girlfriend until 11th grade. That was my first like, kiss like you just said. And, um, it was what happened was about this girl who said she had a crush on me, a Banana Shake. And she had never had a Banana Shake. And I had a banana sheet. I mean, it ain't even popular. It ain't even real banana. It was a butter for rallies this restaurant called rallies if you know, Mississippi. And then, um, you know, we got together it was nice. It was she she had a convertible I drove around and then bad things happen. But then the worst thing happened is if she don't well, my friend Troy, who call me and then Troy was like, Man, I think you need to call blue three way because I think she wants she called me earlier and she asked me if she could hook up with Ronnie. Ronnie Henderson was the like, number two ranked basketball player in the country at the time. I forgot a 48 inch vertical. And like, so that's what I felt like, I got a penis envy and shit. I was like, This nigga can jump out the world. Like, I cannot compete with that. And Troy called and then Troy was like, Oh, so you sure you want me to hook you over Ronnie? And then she was like, Yeah, because key gonna be gone. And, and that's the story.
Traci Thomas 6:30
Remember three- No, I do remember threeway.
Kiese Laymon 6:33
I do remember. Okay. People here over 40 I remember threeway devastation.
Traci Thomas 6:38
Is anybody here under 30? No?
Kiese Laymon 6:43
Who remembers when threeway when you went threeway was invented and fucked up shit. You could do it in the back-
Traci Thomas 6:49
Okay, I'm gonna draw them in and like you put like, pretend like you're not here. I was so mean, though. So I was doing all sorts of I am mean. Like, deeply. Really? I am. I really am. I was mean. I know. I'm sorry. Yeah. But I also got means to over three way. Oh, yeah. People said mean things,
Kiese Laymon 7:12
We use threeway for stuff like our friend manager called her friend Kwanzaa. And then I was like, before I was like, called Kwanzaa. And she was like, why? And she was like, I just want to know what she think about me. Yeah, she called Kwanzaa. And she didn't. She was like, Oh, what do you think about keys? And she was like, Who? Like 10? My focus on my class. And she was like, Oh, the fat one who tried to fill on me at the water fountain. And I was like, no, no, no, that was That wasn't me. I started talking. I started talking about the three way I'll say no, no. To friendships.
Traci Thomas 7:51
Okay, let's talk about bugs for a little bit. Okay, someone asked about revision supporting revision or family. But I actually have a revision question for you first, and then we can go into that one. Here's my revision question for you. You're like the king of revision. I feel like a lot of people know that's like a thing that you are passionate about. I mean, you rereleased your own books and stuff. How bad do you want to revise things that exist? Like, do you have the impulse to like, want to go back? I know the reason that you revised the first two books is because they were assholes. And like, you wanted to own your shit. But like, would you revise heavy does that excite you? Or do you feel like good with the thing you put in the world?
Kiese Laymon 8:34
To him? So I mean, I know he's supposed to be like a beat tonight. You should that's a heavy question for me though. Is it for me, but I'll make it light.
Traci Thomas 8:41
Um, well, you can make it heavy. We can do both. We can do both. Well, we'll get to Dionne in a second.
Kiese Laymon 8:46
Okay. Yes, I wish I could redo heavy Yeah, for sure. Um, I mean, particularly I again like this where I don't I don't like to talk when people don't really want to listen and if I were you I wouldn't want to listen to this part. But I just I think that the amount of time I take in the last sections broke up into for this to last fourth is too long. And then it's like it's like frame but it's Ben and banned and and last banned. It's like too many flourishes and shit. It's like 12 or 14 pages and that last joint and it needs to probably be like, eight. And there's some stuff that I that I wrote about my mother and me that I not that I see what's happened. I'd be foolish to say I wanted to keep it in the book because it hurt my mama. And I said it hurt my mom. Yeah. Parts of it hurt my mom. And I didn't want to release that book. We talked earlier. The last time we're talking about like when books get released, like heavy was done for a minute, but like I thought done, but I needed to get to a place where I wasn't writing out a resentment at all. And then I got I felt like I got to that place with the project. And then and put it into words. My mum was really happy at first. And then people started reading it, and she got less happy. And yeah, I would take some shit out of that book that I wrote about my mother and me. So it'd be, I don't know, questions, I would have put some else in here. But yeah, I would definitely change it. But now but but that's what's interesting is like now that some people have read it, and I already changed other two books. I can't I don't want that to be my thing. You know, I'm saying I don't want to.
Traci Thomas 10:28
There's another version. It's kind of hokey.
Kiese Laymon 10:31
But when I read that book, when I do readings in the world, I read, are there certain sections that I read differently? The dissection book where my mother sees her bounce check for the first time, that really hurt my mom. And I will take that out. And, yeah, there's stuff like that I will take out. And as this, of course, has some sentences that I will take out. And what's wild is the last sentence in that book is actually wrong. I should have said this when Kathy was here, like they printed like I'm playing with the words bend, B and D and B, E, N, and I supposed to be using like one. And then at the end of the sentence, I will use the other one. But I think they both for whatever reason, they use both b e ns. And so that was just like a typo. And but it stayed in everybody's opening their books. I would have changed that. But I would change a lot because that should you know, it was it was I think, I think I'm proud of that book, but some parts of it just hurt my relationship with my mama more. That's not what I wanted to do.
Traci Thomas 11:37
This is the total opposite version of that question. Which is, are there any? Or what is the part of that book that you are the most hype off on yourself? Like, what's the part of your book where you're like, Did you guys catch that? You saw what I did? You know, you know, you know, like, all like, say a joke of a podcast. Like, I hope people are laughing because I was funny.
Kiese Laymon 11:57
Um, you want me to fill myself right now?
Traci Thomas 12:02
Like, what is your like? What is your Have you been silent or silenced moment? Because you know, Oprah was feeling that when she did that. She was like, were you silent? Over you silenced?
You know, it's like that moment where she was like, me, me. It bit me, man.
Kiese Laymon 12:17
That's good. Me, just only big anything I'm gonna say. And I'm gonna be humbling.
Traci Thomas 12:26
This is the hardest part. The other part, you're like, Oh, this is a hard question. But this is the real hard question for you. I mean, I mean. And you know what it is? That's the thinking of it. You notice, just say it. We all
Kiese Laymon 12:41
I just, I just want to say after the book came out, I think the industry was was moved a little bit. And I think a lot of different people attempted to do that book. And I think some people did it did their version of that book incredibly well. And I think the original is the original. That's all right. That's, that's, that's nice. That's the kind of, that's the kind of way to say it, right?
Traci Thomas 13:08
It's very good. If you haven't read it, you can get it from our friends at cafe called Libras. Over there, and they're signed. All your books here are signed, so if you don't have any get them. Okay, supporting revision in your family.
Kiese Laymon 13:22
This whole night gonna be tough.
Traci Thomas 13:24
We're gonna do it. We're gonna hit some of these hard ones first, and then I'm gonna go buckwild later, because y'all didn't get weird enough.
Kiese Laymon 13:32
I mean, you know, that that book heavy is about like, like I was raised by, you know, Pan Africanist. And people who are really deeply committed to political activism Mississippi, and and I had to read a lot. And I was surrounded by activist I was like, activist baby, you know, my parents were activists. And at the root, like, I'm trying to write about how all of our like political projects are, if not bankrupt, definitely shaped by the way we treat each other. In our organization. I think political families organization, I think friendship is organization. And
Traci Thomas 14:09
I say it again, because I'm supporting revision.
Kiese Laymon 14:11
The sort of harsh sort of hard part is I'm not sure, at least at least in my family lately, that we're ever done revising. But we are often done talking. Before we revise, yes. And so I come from a family and many of you might come from the family who congratulate themselves on change, because they may have said something that needs to change, like the changes that I said it. And I think that in my family with myself, too. I think part of the problem is we seldom talk honestly, directly. And so what that does is it highlights the times when we do talk and it can make the times when we do talk to each other about the hardship. I feel like it's revelatory, when we're really we've just done the beginning which is to describe the shit in front of us and so, like it's hard How to, it's hard to revise. If you skip the work and just be like, I revised, right? I have students who are often like, you know what, you know what I want to do? I think I'm going to start this paper with that last graph. And that utterance is the revision, like just saying this shit. And that's the problem. We all have, you know, saying, like, just writing that book, my plugins come with me late, you know? I mean, I think I'm a fairly nice guy, but like, I can be very not nice. Do you know, I'm trying to say so I'm just saying, I think we all need to revise a lot, but it's hard familiarly. If you want to give yourself credit for just like naming. And my family, sometimes when they really want to get at me, they're like, my fucker, you just named some shit. Like, now you don't know where to work? And, and, and I'm like, Well, okay, let's work on. But sometimes I don't mean that. And often, they're not ready to do it. So, you know, family friendships are hard. Especially when there's an art object in the world that appears to like chronicle it. And so that's part of the regret.
Traci Thomas 16:05
Have you found that people in your life feel like betrayed by you, because they didn't know things about you that are in the book, because I think about that a lot. Like if I were to write my memoir, which I literally never would do, because I'm a terrible writer, and have nothing important to say about the world or my life. But if I were to write it, I'd have to include things that like my friends didn't know about me, right? And then I feel like my friends would be like, Oh, you didn't tell me about that.
Kiese Laymon 16:32
This is where it gets fun. Because, yeah, like my friends and family are all like, oh, girl, don't say that. You don't put it in the book. You know what I'm saying?
Traci Thomas 16:41
Stuff that they didn't even know. And then they read it in the book. And they were like, Why didn't you tell me? But see.
Kiese Laymon 16:47
The Deacon Deaconess know, she knows she know what I felt about her before she died. I let her know in a note of my next book. In my next book, there's gonna be a wig head a moving weekend, there's going to be I mean, who's going to have that deaconesses face only y'all know that. That's my heart. I don't give a fuck what y'all say that's gonna be up. But I taught I you know, I mean, this new book is about this. But like, I, I got consent. The people, the people that I did not get consent from, or people who be my mama asked, Did fucked up shit to me, like, like undisputedly, and even then I had to get two or three other people to say, this is what I saw. And I saw it, right. So I never I didn't write one of those books. And I'm sure it's okay to write one of those books, where you do this shit, and you don't get so it's a particular kind of consent. But what I think is interesting, though, is that you know, my friend, you know, my friend, and we he was up ahead at night, you know? Like, ma'am, he whispered in your ear, and you'd be like, Man, your cologne is poppin. And I'd be like, Oh, what's what's up? And he was like, Hey, bro, but don't put that in a book. I'm like, whenever you don't need to worry about a lot of people who don't want you to put it in the book, want you to put it in the book, and they ain't got nothing. You want to put it in almost like a book. Yeah. You know, like, like, that's the wonderful thing about working also at colleges. Because like, I ended up invariably, like becoming friends with mothers who like, you know, cook the food, wash the dishes, do security. And they always like, Hey, man, I got an idea for you. And it's their life, right? They want you to tell the motherfucking life story. And sometimes it's interesting. So So yeah, like, I haven't had anybody who was like, Man, you said that about me. And it wasn't true, because I tried to interview everybody that I write about, but I have a lot of people who were like, don't put this in the book. But they really want me to put it in a book.
Traci Thomas 18:39
Right? Yeah.
Kiese Laymon 18:40
Yeah, don't put this in the book. Don't put this in the book. But it's like, it's like we were talking. If I was writing about some of our conversations, I don't know what the context would be, like, larger context would be like, I would have to talk to you. Yes. Even though even if a fictionalized, your name, you haven't even you know, like, for me as a writer, like, there's the ethic, but then there's also an integrity of the art because my memory ain't gonna be as dope as both of our memories, right? And I trust myself to do some dope with both of our memories open and like just mine, you know, I'm saying, right?
Traci Thomas 19:12
Yeah, no, I was more thinking of like, peripheral friends who are like, they're not even in the book, but they're just like, mad at you that they didn't know like, a piece of your life.
Kiese Laymon 19:21
Just got my friends. They like, Listen, I got people who swear they get in the book.
Traci Thomas 19:26
Oh, I've heard I've heard about this phenomenon. Yeah, where it's like, you change someone's name like, Oh, I'm Darrell right. And you're like, oh, no, John,
Kiese Laymon 19:33
go do readings and you I'll be seeing people I'm so happy to see and be like, Yo, man, thank you for putting me in. And then I'm like, Yay, me. Right You know, maybe you're not in my book. I'm not putting you in my book. Right like, like the puffer because I put in my book like meant the world to me. And but you know what, when I used to Vasily I'm sorry, I'm gonna say this shit. I'm looking to be like a ton of as a professor. But my first book was fiction, it was called long division. And then, and then I have my fingers coming up to me then on some, like, I know you're writing about me. I know you were writing about me. And you know, this was it was Brother I know who had a fade does it doesn't brother my book was a bad fade. It was one of my colleagues wasn't gonna fade was full. I was like, Hey, man, I know you're writing about me. And I was just like, No and, and his wife thought I was writing about her. And so I just think it's very fun and interesting. Sometimes the people who don't mean much to you think, think they do, right?
Traci Thomas 20:42
But then also probably the people that you're writing about are like, thanks so much for not writing about me. And you're like, you're also welcome.
Definitely, you're not there.
Kiese Laymon 20:53
We want to get off of this. But like, I think what's interesting though, as writers and nothing to so many creatives in this room, is that I don't want to write a character who could look at themselves and be like, damn, I wish I wasn't in that book. You know, saying like, that's part of what I'm trying to create a character. And it's hard because peripheral characters sometimes don't need like, all the fucking bells and whistles and shit. But like, I want those characters, if they're honest, to be able to step away and look and be like, I might not like that, but I'm gonna be telling the truth. And you know, the characters in my in my in my books who do terrible thing, but they might be dressed flat, they might have like, some fresh sneakers and shit. And like people in my life who are interviewed who were abusive, one of the things they said was like, if you're gonna put that in the book, you got to make sure I look good. That's how people are feeling like I had some this woman who was sexually abusive to me, who I'm still friends with and she was just, uh, you got to make sure that my feelings away, you got to make sure that the bleach remember I use bleach. And I'm like, gotcha. And I did that. But I gave it to another character. You know, I'm saying so the character in there who sexually abusive. There are some there's some distinguishing characteristics about that character. But the detail she gave me about the bleach I gave to this other character, Leila, just because that's how you gotta do it. You got to call you. So anyway, I just think it's funny that people with like people, it's like on TV when mafia who run behind and be like.
Traci Thomas 22:06
Oh, like Game Day guy game.
Kiese Laymon 22:11
I feel like I'm friends with every one of them. They all want to be in my shoes. They all want to be in my shirt. And I love these people. These are people who will fight for me in New York. If y'all start swinging on me. They will fight for me, but they might not be that interested.
Traci Thomas 22:26
Okay, I want to make sure we get to this. Okay. Yeah, Beyonce.
Kiese Laymon 22:32
Let's talk about Beyonce. Did you see her live? Yeah, no, never. Oh, yes. Plenty times.
Traci Thomas 22:38
But not this one. No, yes.
Kiese Laymon 22:40
I've seen Beyonce in Boston. Twice. I was a gambling addict. So I saw her in a number of casinos.
Traci Thomas 22:48
She wasn't in casinos. But she was like little.
Kiese Laymon 22:52
Like, let me introduce you to the casino life. She was at Mohegan Sun a few times. I was front row. Yeah. I saw in New York City. But um, I started New Orleans and I might be able to go see your New Orleans in a few days. No way.
Traci Thomas 23:08
Oh, on Wednesday,
Kiese Laymon 23:09
Yeah. Mike, can I come? He gonna be here?
Traci Thomas 23:14
I'll be flying back home.
Kiese Laymon 23:15
But if I don't know I might I got tickets. But we'll see. Can
Traci Thomas 23:20
I come? You have tickets?
Kiese Laymon 23:22
Okay, thank you also can say something. Yeah, I didn't say this last time. But in addition to being like incredible at what you do, in addition to like, run into stacks and being something a lot of us look to, for fun for like insight. You also are like this community organizer. And like you raise $17,000 For my grandmother's initiative out in Marga. Walker Center at Jackson State University, just because you want it to you raise that. Thank you. I want to say thank you,
Traci Thomas 23:54
but I didn't really do that. The stocks pack really. You ain't really community.
Kiese Laymon 23:59
Yeah, all of that money went to went to the kids this summer, who had a week full of food, creative writing, being on Jackson State's campus with one another being taught by some of the most incredible writers in Mississippi, and then went to some incredible farms. And some chefs came and talked to them about the creative process of creating food, political dimensions of food in Mississippi, and I'm just gonna say thank you for helping make that possible. Because I didn't say you think last time
Traci Thomas 24:25
so at least you could do the least you could do Yeah, I feel like you've been so supportive of me. The least I can do is like censorship. I'm always like, what do you need? And you're like nothing.
I'm like Ok, can we raise money or something? Right? Just like ask me for advice. Sometimes I wouldn't have to do all the other like raising money.
Oh, oh, I love her.
Kiese Laymon 24:49
But we started talking about for alluding to Beyonce privately like a week ago, when we were talking about some awards literary Oh, As we were, and one of the things I was interested in talking about with someone who might have agree with me was like, What are we gonna do with how black women, artists, performers, literary people are often like there's that as strict within the process of judging them right. So I'm Judge literary awards.
Traci Thomas 25:20
We're doing it right now.
Kiese Laymon 25:22
Where people have strayed upset. Cydia, Hartman wrote a great book, but she's gonna get a MacArthur, right, Jasmine Ward, wrote the book of the year, but she already wants such and such. And I think on one hand, we need to do the work of critiquing people who are quote, unquote, at the top, regret regardless of race, class, gender, sexuality, blah, blah, blah. But when you consistently see black women being better than everybody else, that's what the fuck they do. And people using weird sort of like, like, well, they're gonna get enough so let's not do this, I think. I mean, I've heard from people in those rooms that they're they do that a lot too. And one could argue she doesn't need their praise and all that kind of shit. But I also think this is why they say way maybe to their worship we for sure. We okay, we Yeah, and so so we were talking about how certain people are really hard on on on on black woman, particularly who've been successful. And they use that success, literally to their mouth to be like, we're not giving them this because they got that, right. Taylor Swift does not appear to be a beneficiary of this, this sort of thing. She's boo.
Traci Thomas 26:36
Like, could you imagine if Beyonce wore a flat boot? Like truth? No, I'm being dead serious. Like, really think about if she put those Instagram pictures up, where you scroll through and in a dead as flat as booed.
Kiese Laymon 26:52
I just think she couldn't make anything work though.
Traci Thomas 26:54
Okay, I think she could and I think if she did it, it would work. I'm just saying like, the way people would talk about her if she walked out on the stage like that, like, it's, I don't have a problem with the flat boots. I wear a flat like I love a flat. My whole brand is about me wearing a sneaker so I don't have to wear a heel, right? But it's the it's the it's the cultural connotation of a heel on a woman on a stage in a leotard or a dress, right? Like it's like that Taylor Swift can wear a flat boot. And nobody says shit. And if Beyonce wore a flat boot, it would be the end. And again, I like a flat. Okay, not against a flat, though I do love a character shoe. From LoDuca specifically, please sponsor this tour. So I can work character shoes everywhere. I think it's true. I think that people it's like that double standard or whatever. And I feel like this thing about Beyonce is like she's getting better. Despite that, we're I think that would just break me. Right? Like, I think that if I was constantly doing better, and being told that I wasn't as good as like Harry Styles or whatever, that eventually, I would just be like, honestly, you don't deserve the art. And like, that's not what Beyonce did. She was like, Oh, I've upgraded my leotards. Like I've upgraded the choreography. Les Twins are twinning. Twins. I love them. Les Twins, Larry and lawrato
Kiese Laymon 28:19
by Les Twins.
Traci Thomas 28:20
Yeah. I cried when I saw them. I love Les Twins. They're so good. cheeses, and beautiful. And they're the only people who are allowed to touch her. Do you know that? Like onstage? Yeah. Do you have seen the videos where she has like costume malfunctions. And like, she has a costume. There's like a video where she's like, you know, and then she if you look, she looks down and she's like, and then Larry or Laurent one gets up on the front. He like starts like hyping the crowd. And then the other one gets on the stage and like fixes her zipper. There's another one where her like boob is popping out and then like Larry and Laura. And they like big set, but they're like her people like the other dancers. They're all new. Everyone else is new, but those are her people and they like can touch her, and I love them. And when I found out that I was pregnant with my twins, and I found out they were identical. We're waiting to find out like whatever they were going to be assigned gender wise at birth. And I when I found out they were boys, I just sent everybody gifts of Larry and Laurent Dooley. I was like,
Kiese Laymon 29:22
Oh,
Traci Thomas 29:24
we haven't done any of your guys's thing. First kisses. Beyonce, just a Baldwin. Do you have anything interesting to say? He's just great. I don't have a lot of Bob and I haven't read a lot.
Kiese Laymon 29:34
Yeah, James. Um yeah, I taught some people in here some Baldwin classes. Yeah, I mean, I mean, what does it say? I think for I think for as much as we kind of talk about ball and write about ball and I just don't I think we I think we haven't even touched the. I mean, there's so much more to go into. I think in the end actual work I think Baldwin became like an icon in the 2000s before he became an actual author. And so I would I would like for people to actually like read the work of the dude before they like hoist him up because it's complicated and I think his takes on like I it's just complicated so I mean, Baldwin is why I'm up here talking to you, but I just hope I just I wish we were a little bit more critical lovingly critical of the text because the thing is Baldwin I'm just gonna throw some shit out Baldwin and right like mean the world to me. But the difference between Baldwin right and like Morrison is that like, Morrison actually knew how to write a novel. And I think right and Boeing wrote incredibly incredibly incredibly important novels but they really didn't know how to write like try to try to figure out fucking point of view on a ball one novel, like any All right, as he tried to be like, What point of view was that? And what we want to do is oh, he mastered all the points of no fan. This motherfucker will jump into anybody's head whenever the fuck he wants to start giving a speech about some shit, like from a character who a few minutes ago can only say in the and then all of a sudden they started talking, you know, so anyway, I think a lot about Baldwin. But Baldwin is why I'm here, like, for sure. 100%
Traci Thomas 31:16
We're very close to being at a time we didn't do a good job on Oh, Dion. Let's do Dion quick.
Kiese Laymon 31:22
Dr. Sam? Yeah. Who cared? Who said Dr.
Traci Thomas 31:25
Somebody wrote it on the piece of paper before we got up here. Who was it?
Kiese Laymon 31:31
Well, you're gonna be on takes.
Traci Thomas 31:33
I love it. You love it. You know, I love an ISIL athlete. Like that is my if you're a nice athlete, I don't like you. Right? Like if you are like, I like Russell Westbrook. Not Russell's. I wasn't gonna say but I'd use that as like, the only nice athlete. I like Steph Curry because he plays for my team. But if he ever went somewhere else I'd like subqueries a little
You see, he's a little nice.
Yeah, yeah, I but I love Riley curry. Right. So I can never talk about her dad. But like, so for me. I like Deion Sanders as a kid. I love Terrell Owens, like, it's Richard Sherman when he stopped being a Seahawk. Yeah, Sign me up. He also came to the Niners, so that helps. The thing I don't like about the damn thing that is frustrating to me, is the like expectation that he's going to be undefeated. Like people were acting like, they have to beat Oregon. And I'm like, they're 21 Point underdogs. Like, they didn't win shit last year. Just because he's chesty doesn't mean they're good. It just means he's just right.
Kiese Laymon 32:55
I mean, you know, he caught he coached at Jackson State University, you have different um, and that was that was where I was born. My mother father graduated from there. I got a commencement speech at Jackson State a few months ago. And when he won the Suek I don't know if you remember this. He wanted a swag tournament, which HBCU school swag is a conference. He got on a plane immediately. Yes. And flew to Colorado. Yes. They had another game to play called a celebration bowl. And and while I am taking so much by like black symbolism and black aesthetic prowess, I think what we see in Dion is like that taken to the degree with like, no politics, right? There's no black politics shine that aesthetic. And people can argue that the aesthetic is political. And I'm here, I'm here for that. But in my city, when the water was fucked up, he went hard at the black mayor. He didn't go hard at the fucking like white Republican governor who I went to school with who was shit on Jackson a shin on black people his entire career, he went out the way he wanted to black man. He started talking about how important it was for him to have Caucasians. That's what he said Caucasians on my staff. He wanted people like in Colorado, to know that he could be nice and fair to quote unquote, Caucasians. And then when he got the job when Jackson State is playing for the national championship of HBCUs he's coaching another fucking team. And he's only doing that because the school is black. Right? And so while I'm taking by Dion like everybody else, and I want him to put a foot in a white white ass is all of these coaches and weird as fan bases. I'm also want us to hold our black aesthetically gifted people to some black fucking, like radical politics. And I think we can do both. You're right.
Traci Thomas 34:37
You're right. You're right. It was fucked. How he left and all of that shit and we want him to and also I don't even like college football. Sport. I don't like his college. And I have been staying up late. Yeah, I have been watching and rooting me too. And How dare that other coach Thomas take off his glasses like personally offended.
Kiese Laymon 34:59
That was that was was a mistake. That was a mistake. And that was a black man. Well, you know, well, you know, yeah-
Traci Thomas 35:07
Well, you know,
Kiese Laymon 35:10
I can ask a question you want to, if you want me to? Um, please, okay, so much of what you do. For me, and from what I see appears to be rooted in like, in like friendship, and community building, but also like kinds of friendship. But I feel like when I ever say that to people, I'm assuming. So like, this might put you in a bad position. I'm sorry. But do you feel like when you create the stacks, in addition to like, you know, creating community through books, are you intentionally like also trying to cultivate like, friendships, because I feel like meeting people here, they appear to be friends that met because of you, but I never asked you if like friendships was something you actually were interested in, like, cultivating? Not just with you, but like,
Traci Thomas 35:55
No, no, no, no, no, it wasn't something that I had, like, on my list at the start. But then when I like saw people, and like, I started to make friends and like saw, like the way the book community like, wanted that space, it felt easy to do it. You know what I mean? Like, if I wasn't like, I was like, I'm gonna start a boot camp podcast and ask my friends questions about books. And maybe one day, an author will come on the podcast, and I wrote a list of authors that I maybe would want to have on the podcast. And like, aside from Oprah and the Obamas, I feel like we've basically gotten there. Amazing. Yeah. And so like, that's where I started. But I feel like the thing I'm most proud about is like, we have a, I have a Patreon that like, keeps the show running. I can't do the show without the Patreon because I'm an independent podcast. And that community, the Stax pack, like my my people, they are so cool. And they like have organized like, I'm gonna cry, they like organized like drinks and like, coming to the show, and like riding the train together, and like all this stuff, and like, I hear from them so much about community and like one of the members of this tax pack, she had twins recently, and her kids like her, she's sorry, she had a she had her third child and her kid was like, and I'm like, crying her kid was like in the NICU, and like, everyone was like giving her advice and like trying to help her and like, she, she flew her partner and her kids to, like, Kansas City, so that she could come to the Chicago show for like, 24 hours. And like, that kind of stuff is really meaningful to me, because it's not something that I ever imagined. Right? Like, and like, that's like, beyond my wildest dreams. Like being here is like, beyond my wildest dreams, because I went to school in New York, and I quit acting because I was bad. And it's true. And it's fine. I was really bad. But like we had we added this show. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, and that's because of you guys and you. But like, so like that stuff is like deeply meaningful to me. But it was not the intention, but it's the best part of the thing. Thank you. I have too much makeup on. Does that answer your question? It does. I think we got to stop because so embarrassing. I just thank you. Thank you. Are you silent? Or were you silent? Um, I love you guys. Thank you. Thank thank you guys for real because also like, truly is just like me and I have an editor and an assistant and we just do all the shit and like, hope that it works. So it's nice to see people. But with that, I got to do that because we got to get out. Let me start caveat than you. Thank you guys so so so so much. Thank you. Thank you thank this space is awesome. Thank you to cafe con Libras they've got books there for sale. If you haven't purchased books, please do talking about Amazon support your local bookstore because they literally came to you this time. Obviously, you can also buy Stax merch and my first friend from college is manning the merch table. So go meet Christopher. He used to be Chris forward but now he's introducing himself as Christopher Oregon and I really had to do that properly. Thank you to the Stacks pack always and forever. Thank you to the team photographers, everybody who like you know came out whatever. And obviously Kiese, thank you to you for being here tonight. Also just for being my friends and letting me text you bad takes and I'm saying can I say this into a microphone yes or no? And then you being like, I can't tell you what to do. That's how I know it's a no.
Kiese Laymon 39:33
Thank you for real.
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