Ep. 367 What Does It Mean to Know a Celebrity with Giaae Kwon

Written By Megan Caballero

This week, food and culture writer, Giaae Kwon joins us to discuss her debut book, a collection of essays, I'll Love You Forever: Notes from a K-Pop Fan. We talk about what defines K-pop and the aspects of its fandom: from parasocial relationships to the exoticization of K-pop and its "idols".

The Stacks Book Club pick for April is Blessing the Boats: New and Selected Poems 1988–2000 by Lucille Clifton. We will discuss the book on April 30th with Tiana Clark returning as our guest.

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Giaae Kwon  00:00

I always kind of thought of my thing with fandom as being a way of me dealing with loneliness. I did go through very lonely years where I felt very isolated and I could find some kind of solace and connection in K Pop fandom, and I know that I do have an obsessive personality. Like, that's part of my ADD. I'll just, like, fixate on something, yeah, so that's certainly part of it. Like, I can hook onto something and, like, do a really deep dive. And I think for a lot of people, or for at least some parts of fandom, it does come from this desire to, like, know, you know, obviously in quotes like, what does it really mean to know a celebrity, but this idea that you can have a relationship even though it's a fake relationship.

Traci Thomas  00:54

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I am so excited to welcome Giaae Kwon to the show. Giaae is a culture writer whose debut book I'll love you forever notes from a K Pop fan is a love letter and a cultural exploration of the complex world of k pop and how it shaped her life as a Korean American today, Giaae and I talk about the different ways fandoms play out in the United States and Korea, what community looks like in these spaces and why mental health and K Pop seem to go hand in hand. Don't forget, our book club pick for April is blessing the boats new and Selected Poems, 1988 through 2000 by Lucille clipton, Tiana Clark, will be back on Wednesday, April 30 to discuss this book with us. So Please read along and tune in. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of The Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join The Stacks. Pack or check out my newsletter at Traci Thomas, dot sub stack.com by becoming a member in both of these places, you support the work that I do, and you get a lot of fun stuff, like bonus episodes, access to the discord, hot takes and more. So check out patreon.com/the stacks and Traci Thomas, dot sub stack.com. Okay, now it's time for my conversation with Giaae Quan. All right, everybody. I'm so excited. I'm joined today by an author now, but first, a friend of mine from the book space, Giaae Kwon, whose brand new book is I'll love you forever. Notes from a K Pop fan. Welcome to The Stacks. 

Giaae Kwon  02:34

Thank you for having me. 

Traci Thomas  02:36

I'm so proud of you. This is just so exciting for me. I have to just say, up front to everyone listening, I know basically nothing about K Pop, except for the things I learned from your book. So anything like stupid or ignorant I say about K Pop, I'm sorry. I'm I'm so new here, like I can't even fake the funk at all. Okay, tell us about the book. 30 seconds or so. Set it up. The book is about K Pop. They are essays that braid personal writing and cultural criticism to kind of give a broader, bigger context as to K Pop, which is as we know today, it's about 30 years old, so it's a very young industry, okay? And for people who are as dumb as me, or maybe know more, can you just sort of tell us what is k pop like? Technically, what makes something K Pop?

Giaae Kwon  03:36

Okay? So if I were to distinguish k pop from maybe other pop industries. I think it's maybe kind of the way the industry is run. It is okay. Some people criticize them for being like formulaic, like in Korea, like the entertainment company controls everything. So they audition, they Scout, they train, they they form the groups. They give the groups their identity. They're the ones who like, get the songwriters. They produce everything they also like, manage, like advertising contracts, any like variety show appearances or media appearances. Like it's all controlled by the company, and it's very like each brand. Each group is like a brand. So they all have their group brands. Individually, they have like, they're like, role in the group. And I think one other thing that sets it apart is a parasocial relationships are built into idoldom. Like, it's not like a side effect of, like, fame, but it's like, built into it. Are the entertainment companies, those are basically like the record labels, if you're giving it, sort of like an American, you know, comparison. And then to me, like, from what I hear, and maybe this is just because how old I am, this is just like so much of it reminds me of, like, the early days of NSYNC in.

Traci Thomas  04:59

And the Backstreet Boys and the Spice Girls, where it was like they were making these groups, and it was like, oh my god, they put these people together, like they and, like, 98 Degrees was special, because Nick and drew Lachey were actually brothers, and, like, those guys actually knew each other, versus the like we got Justin Timberlake, we got JC. And so it sort of reminds me of that. Does that feel like an okay comparison on the sort of like forming the group because those groups had personalities, right? You don't know this, and I'll tell you the secret, and we can leave it in the episode, because it'll have aired by then. But I'm talking to a Spice Girl on this podcast, Ginger spice, which is insane. She wrote a book. I haven't read it yet. I'm sure it's lovely. But they were like, Ginger spice wrote a book. And I was like, well, listen, I was 12 years old in like 19, like, in like 2000 so I'm available for the interview Anyways. Anyways, this is not about the Spice Girls, though it could be, because I do want to talk about Phantom. But before we do that, the only k pop I really know is Blackpink  and BTS. And I was surprised that there was, like, lots of genres of music. The music is not specific to k pop in the way that, like rap music is a genre, or country music is a genre. It's more just like all pop, more like broadly pop music, and can have different sounds and styles. 

Giaae Kwon  06:26

Yeah. So k pop does pull from a lot of things, but Korean music in general, there is like a rap, hip hop scene. There is like an indie band scene. But you really, don't really slot them into K Pop necessarily. So there is a bigger music industry, but K Pop will kind of pull from, like, on it k pop.

Traci Thomas  06:51

Like, the bands will have a little it'll be like, the country ish one, or like, yeah, like the hip hop one, the rock because you talk about the Ross one that came from the in the scene. And, yeah, okay, great. Now I want to talk about the book. Okay, so first and foremost, my most pressing question for you, because I think you did a really great job of this, is I want to know how you were thinking about audience, knowing that you had have in the past, written a column about k pop music. You are writing to an audience that knows a ton about K Pop, but you're also writing to people like me who don't really know anything. And so I'm wondering how you struck that balance, how you knew if you were doing too much, like, let me teach you idiots, versus like, Let's do inside baseball. So how were you thinking about that? 

Giaae Kwon  07:07

I think it definitely helped having an editor who didn't know that much about k pop. So if you know the editing process is long, there are many people who touch a book and so like, if there were specific questions that came up that, like they didn't know something about that, I would have to expand on. That was helpful, because I definitely did sometimes run into the, I guess sometimes trap of because I've grown up with this, I know this industry, so that was really helpful, knowing that there were external readers who would come in and, like, ask questions and like, ask for clarification. But yeah, I guess when I was thinking of audience, I don't know that it was necessarily thinking just of k pop bands, because I feel like, like, pop is universal. It's yeah, yeah. Like, random is universal. It's just like, the specificities, really that yeah, that people might get caught on.

Traci Thomas  08:32

When your editors, or like, other readers outside, readers who didn't know as much about K Pop, when they would, like, push back. Were there ever times where you were like, No, I'm not. I'm not doing that. Or, like, that's too stupid. Like, like, Were there ever times where you guys, like, disagreed about how to frame these types of things for readers who maybe aren't as familiar?

Giaae Kwon  08:51

Surprisingly, not, I, like, set up front to my editor that I didn't want to do a glossary. There's no glossary in the book. And she was like, that's fine. Like, we'll figure out. Like, there are definitely, maybe there are, like, a few words in Korean that I don't define, maybe, but then, like, in places where she was like, I think we should maybe clarify a little then, like, we would put in, like, maybe a clearer definition. But she was definitely very like, yeah, if you don't want to do a glossary, you don't do a glossary. We'll figure it out. People can figure it out. Readers are smart.

Traci Thomas  09:25

Yeah, they can figure it out. I'm a reader. I'm smart. I listened to the audiobook. You did such a good job. Obviously, I knew you were a great writer, but I feel like you can be shy. And so I was like, Oh, she's gonna be shy. And then I get the book, and I'm like, Oh, my God, this is amazing. I just like, you were funny parts. You were, like, very sincere. I think I like, I really liked the audio book. I was like, cooking listening to you. So people at home, if you're curious about the audio it's definitely, I do recommend, yeah. Yeah, okay, let's talk a little bit about fandom. Because, like you said, Pop music is pop music. It is. We all, everyone has a relationship to pop music in some way. That's because it's popular. It's the music of of your time and place. How do you feel like the fandom piece of it manifests differently in Korea, or with Korean American communities and versus, I guess, the US broadly, it's sort of hard because there's so many communities in the US. I don't want to be like just white people, but I feel like there's maybe something like culturally different about the ways that these two countries sort of relate to fandom. So what does that seem like to you?

Giaae Kwon  10:46

I guess. First, adding the caveat that I'm not super familiar with like Western fandom, right? 

Traci Thomas  10:53

You're not, you have no, no real relationship to Western fandom.

Giaae Kwon  10:58

Not really. I don't really follow Western pop as much, so I get some of it, but I'm not you know the Spice Girls. Yes, yeah, okay, 

Traci Thomas  11:07

Thank God, because that whole plant before would have just been a waste of our time if you didn't know what I was talking about. 

Giaae Kwon  11:12

Yes, I do know them. But like K Pop fandom, when we talk about it in the West, is kind of in two layers. So you have k fandom in Korea and the you have I fandom for international fandom, which, when we talk of it in the West, we mean the West, even though K Pop is huge, like all over Asia, which is also international, right? 

Traci Thomas  11:34

Okay, I see, yeah. So I fandom is like the West, yes. K fandom is Korea, Korea, other Asian kind of, yeah, can be, can be.

Giaae Kwon  11:42

Can be because, yeah, because we don't really distinguish between Asian countries in the West. So, okay, got it. I think K Pop fandom is intense, like, yeah, again, because the whole parasocial relationship is built into it, and it's part of what you do as an idol, like, you need to foster these intense, like, relationships with your fans. And I think, like, technology has made it worse with like, you know, fans go on live, um, they have, like, there's a platform called bubble where it's like, they can post like photos, or, you know, kind of almost like tweets, but it's like structured like your you as a fan are getting like a DM so there are all these like little things where k pop fan is meant to kind of have this like fake relationship with your idol. And so I think that breeds a kind of intensity that is really bad, like we have a word called Taz fans for fans who just regularly cross boundaries because they feel like they own and possess this idol. And it's like they follow them home. They break into their apartments. They'll rent apartments in the same building to get like access. Yeah, it's really creepy. 

Traci Thomas  13:06

Is there any like push from the k pop stars to like, have their companies like, not like, protect them? I mean, I feel like something that I see here in the States is like, this next generation of like, Chappel Roan is like, fuck you. I'm not gonna tell you, like, who I'm voting for. You don't have the right to have that access to me. Like my business is my business. And that feels sort of new in the States, in a way that, like Britney Spears was, you know, fighting for her life from the paparazzi and really, like, her whole shit was out there. And so I'm wondering if in, because there's different generations of k pop, and we're sort of in the fourth generation is my understanding fifth, fifth generation is my understanding. I read the book, I swear.

Giaae Kwon  13:56

Fourth to fifth that's been a debate. 

Traci Thomas  13:59

Okay, okay, I'm on the edge. But I can see that we are in fifth Okay, okay, that sounds like real inside. There are people who are gonna be really happy. They'd mean your DMs, but like, are we seeing with the fourth and fifth generation that they are not wanting this, or is the fandom idol part of it? Like, encouraged even among the stars. 

Giaae Kwon  14:22

I think it's still encouraged. I mean, I think if there's pushback, it might be happening behind the scenes, but no, they still very much like, participate in all of it. Like, I think, like, Cheng Gu in pancan, for example. Like he's said on lives, like, please don't send me food delivery. Like, don't come to my gym. So he'll, like, say things so like, yeah. Like, the old parents show up at his gym.

Traci Thomas  14:49

He's like, just trying to deadlift.

Giaae Kwon  14:52

Like, don't send me food delivery to my apartment. So I think sometimes they do, like, try to, like. Say, like, don't do this, don't do that, but, like, how much authority do they actually have? Not really, and, yeah, it's still, yeah. 

Traci Thomas  15:09

Okay, so the other piece of this that, like, ties into your story, because the thing about the book that's so great is, like you really do as much as it's about k pop. And I have so many, like, stupid little k pop questions. It really doesn't feel like a music book or a K Pop book. It really feels like a memoir, and you're sort of just like using k pop to anchor your story. But one of the things that comes up so much is depression and mental health, and there's a lot of suicides of k pop stars. It felt like there were a lot, I don't know if that's proportionate to the number of celebrities that are dying of suicide in general, but it just it comes up a lot in this book. And do we think that it's because of, like, this access and this constant like, there's no break if people are coming to your gym and, like, know where you live and are moving into your building? So do we think that, like, the mental health piece of it for these stars is extra precarious?

Giaae Kwon  16:03

 Yeah, I think that's definitely part of it like that. It probably does feed into mental health. But I think the bigger issue when it comes to there are a lot of celebrity suicides is just that net isn't culture in Korea is really bad, which maybe doesn't necessarily make it unique, because I know internet culture here is also really bad, but like, the way that, like, netizens will just harass celebrities, like, if they do anything wrong, especially if you're a woman, if you step out of line, quote, unquote, in any way, like they'll just the way that They pile on, and the way that they criticize, and it's really bad, like medicine culture in Korea can be really intense. And we've seen, like a new thing, where recently, for rise, which is a new group, they debuted, I think, 2023 and, like, one of their members was found to have had a girlfriend when he was a trainee, which did not go over well with, yeah, that's against the rules. And so, like, not only was it like the netizen harassment, like, apparently fans would like send funeral wreaths to SM So, like street, yeah, to the company on the street, like funeral wreaths for this member who is no longer in the group, because that was, like their way of protesting that he shouldn't be in it. So it's in general netizen and fan culture. I think definitely they pulled him from the group, yeah, so they had to pull him from the group. He is reportedly going to debut as a solo artist. But, yeah, yeah, so, but we'll see.

Traci Thomas  17:43

If that happens. Like, do they have to change his whole persona? 

Giaae Kwon  17:47

I don't know. This is actually not happened.

Traci Thomas  17:50

Breaking news, okay, okay, yeah, I feel like you got to change your persona. Like, if he's like, the good boy who cut like, then he's got to come out and be like a womanizer or whatever. Or he's got to go from being like the really, like, big personality to being really shy writing in his journal or whatever. Like, he's got to do a full personality shift, yeah, so because, if he just comes out without a group, it's like, like, you can't do this by yourself. You're not ready. Like, yeah, that's weird. 

Giaae Kwon  18:16

And there aren't that many soloists in K Pop, so there's not and are, and are, and the ones who are, generally people who have come from other groups, yeah, so people will debut solo after they've been a group. They'll still be part of the group, but they'll have, like, solo activities. But, yeah.  That never works in America. Oh, except for Beyonce, but she never went back to the group. Either in the States, you're either in a group, or you're not. And like, once you sort of solo, you don't really get to come back, you know, like the Fugees are not hanging out with Lauryn Hill anymore. There's no more Fugees, no more insane, no more like these, once they get the solo, they're like, I don't want to have friends. I didn't, I didn't want to do this.

Traci Thomas  19:01

And I thought that was really interesting, because that is a contrast that like, right? And in K Pop, I love that they made the like, super groups of, like, the different generations of singers come together to make like a student, like, Could you imagine if we had like, Mariah Carey, Britney Spears, like, I don't know, I can't like Chapell Roan, like in a super group, it would be like, What the fuck?

Traci Thomas  19:29

But I think, I mean, that sounded like very cool to me. Yeah. Do you feel like for yourself as a fan? What do you gain personally from being a fan, like, what is it about being a fan that is fulfilling to you? Besides, like, you know the music, because you could, you could listen to the music and not be like a person immersed in the fan culture, right? 

Giaae Kwon  19:55

I think K Pop, to me, is just, it's fun. Um, yeah. And yeah, I think definitely on a personal level for me as a Korean American who was born and raised in the US and always kind of wanted to be accepted by Koreans, especially because a lot of the body shaming for me and rejection came from Koreans. So wanting that acceptance and wanting to be a part of that, I think that's one of the things that has kept me in K Pop, this sense of like, oh, this is part of me. Like it in a way, belongs to me. And also because, you know, when I was younger, we didn't have the internet in the way that we we do today, right? So I couldn't participate in fandom in the ways that I wanted to or the ways that I could have if I was in Korea. So I think for me, one of the things I personally get is just a sense of, like identity and place and belonging.

Traci Thomas  20:53

And you talk about in the book, like, how, as you get older, you get further and further away from the age of the idols, have you figured out what you're gonna do? Like, what happens to adult K Pop fans? Like, because are you gonna be 60? I mean, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Like, there's like, 70 year old men who love football in America, right? Who like root for 18 or 19 year old boys who you know so like, I don't, I don't think that there's anything inherently wrong with it, but it is something like, certainly, that you're thinking about. So I'm wondering sort of where your thinking has gone there. 

Giaae Kwon  21:29

Yeah, I don't know. I feel like, I feel like there's more distance between me and now, like idols, or fourth, fifth Gen, because it's just the age gap. And I feel like I've become more motherly. I'm just kind of being, like, more concerned about their, like, health and well being Yeah, yeah. So I feel like I'll probably likely continue to follow K Pop, but it'll be with less fervor, yeah, yeah, more of just hoping to see more change. But no, they're definitely, like, there's a term for, like, ajima fans, who, you know, are middle aged, and maybe like, like the younger idols and like, they still get that kind of, like, joy and fun out of, you know, standing them. But for me, I'm just kind of like all little babies, eat properly, get somesleep. That's so funny. 

Traci Thomas  22:30

Um, is is it? Is fandom gendered in Korea in the same way that sort of like here, like women are really looked down on, if you are, like a super fan, like they really trivialize it, like the screaming girls, and it's been a thing since the Beatles, right? Like, it's like, oh, these stupid girls love the Beatles. Is it? Is it a similar thing? Or are men also K Pop stands? 

Giaae Kwon  22:54

Men are still they are K Pop stands. But usually, of like, Girl groups with Oh, creepier undertones I was gonna say, I feel weird about this. Yeah. So there are men who are K Pop fans, but it is, it is definitely very gendered, yes. And is it looked down on, like, is it treated as like a silly thing? Yes. 

Traci Thomas  23:19

Okay, so that's the same as here, gender anything women like is the worst and stupid, and women should get over it, and smart things. Okay, that's universal. Great. Glad we got that out of the way. Um, what is it about fandom? This is, like, a kind of a broad question. Do you why do you think that some people are more susceptible to becoming super fans, or, like, obsessive fans, or just, like, get strong, maybe not obsessive. Like, you know, fans.

Giaae Kwon  23:52

I guess, speaking as one myself, yeah, I have no idea. 

Traci Thomas  23:57

You don't know what it is about you that makes you like. Well, I just because, as I was reading your book, I was thinking a lot about my own relationship to things. And while I am like, I am a fan of a lot of things, I am not interested in the person outside of, like the art. Like, I'm almost like, that's almost like a turn off for me. Like, sometimes when there's like, celebrity gossip that is, like, personal I'm like, I don't want to know that, you know, like, I'm like, at first I was like, Oh, the Blake Lively, Justin Baldoni thing. I was like, Oh, this is interesting. And then it was like, Oh, this has to do with her breastfeeding. Like, I don't care. Like, I don't, that's her and her baby. Like, I don't, I don't like it here. I don't want it. And I mean, not that I'm a huge fan of hers or his, but I did love Gossip Girl, um, but that's for me. Like, I don't feel like I have that same kind of like urge for fandom. So I'm wondering what it is for you that like feels like I. I love it here.

Giaae Kwon  25:02

I feel like I also am not super interested in, like, the personal, personal like, I know, I know there are many fans who are, but I also, as much as I love gossip in general, yeah, like, there's this whole, like, recent controversy with Kim Seon that caught me unawares because I wasn't following his like, even his like public appearances outside of his dramas, because for me, I was like, I like you as an actor. So some of the stuff has thrown me off guard, because I don't really care about the personal, personal, right? But I feel like maybe it just sometimes I wonder if it comes down to just the desire to connect and to like, quote, unquote, know, someone, and I, for me, I always kind of thought of my thing with fandom as being a way of me dealing with loneliness. Because I did go through very lonely years where I felt very isolated and I could find some kind of solace and connection in K Pop fandom, even though, again, I wasn't really following people's personal lives, but having some kind of interest outside of just the music, like I would watch like yin and programs like variety shows or right you know, once everyone started Getting on YouTube, like watching vlogs and stuff like that, stuff like that. Like, I have limits as to how much of that stuff I can consume, but Right, yeah, right. Like, and I know that I do have an obsessive personality, like, that's part of my ADD. I'll just, like, fixate on something, yeah? So that's simply part of it. Like, I can hook onto something and, like, do a really deep dive. But yeah, I think personally for me, it was just a lot of being lonely, and again, just wanting to connect with a part of me that I felt like I didn't have access to. And I think for a lot of people, or for at least some parts of fandom, it does come from this desire to like, know, you know, obviously, in quotes, like, what does it really mean to know a celebrity, but Right, this idea that you can have a relationship even though it's a fake relationship. 

Traci Thomas  27:09

And it sounds like that's by design, like that is part like the people who are pulling the strings At these companies, that is as much the product as the music or the style or the branding, it is the connection with the fans. Yes, okay, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Okay, we're back. I want to talk about racism in K Pop because you have a chapter. You have chapters on homophobia, you have chapters. There's a lot about body stuff, which we'll get to, but you have a chapter where we're talking about racism and sort of the ways that shows up in k pop. So I'd love for you to talk a little bit about about that, yeah, K Pop. 

Giaae Kwon  28:02

I mean, if you think about it, K Pop was not, I guess, what you would call naturalto Korea, like it is, it did. It is imported from the west. I guess, maybe not so much imported as it is. It was very much influenced from the west. It came in through military GIs. So you could argue that the entire structure is entirely appropriative, and it is. Racism is a really big problem in K Pop. I think I brought it up specifically in connection to Big Bang, specifically in connection to, like, cultural appropriation. You see a lot of it. I quoted the Made music video, particularly like you can see a lot of like visually, whether it's hairstyles or like singing in that video is wearing, like a chieftain one of the chieftain din hat. And I think it's a problem, because it also comes from within the companies, and no one has really reckoned with it in the industry yet. And you see it a lot in the fandom too, especially like black fans who try to point out things like appropriation. You see a lot of other fans trying to, like, smother that criticism, or trying to like, quote, unquote, neutralize it, but basically just by, like, ignoring it and like sweeping it under the rug. And, yeah, it's a really big problem. And again, I don't think the industry has not reckoned with it yet. And it's like, not even really a conversation, which I think is not good, right? 

Traci Thomas  29:39

I got something that you said that I thought was interesting, was interesting was, like, there is a lot of outside criticism of the racism from people who are not, like in Korea or K Pop fans or whatever. And I thought it was interesting that you were, like, coming from Americans, it's sort of rich because of, like, the kind of racism that we have here. And I thought that was, like, really fair. I think that's fair. I think, like, I. This, like, immediate jump to criticize a problem that is a problem like it is. There's not the solutions have not well, we might know what those solutions are. They're not being worked towards right here or abroad. And I, why I like that is because I also felt like there's a lot of weird ways that K Pop is, like, sort of sensationalized, or, like, exoticized, like, the ways that K Pop Music and fandom is sort of here in the West is, like, treated with certainly a culturally inappropriate, if not racist lens. So I'm wondering, like, what, how you see that as a Korean American, like you are both American and Korean, and you live in both of these spaces, so I'm curious what that is like for you.

Giaae Kwon  30:48

I find Western treatment of k pop to be incredibly frustrating. Say more, yeah, I feel like there is a tendency to sensationalize. I feel like there's also this like tendency to like, if they get a whiff of anything that's like, about the dark sides of k pop, people love to hop on to that. One of the big things that drove me in the writing of the book, just kind of wanting to contextualize k pop and like, right? Because, like, these artists don't come out of nowhere, right? And there's a big history, and there's like, reasons for K Pop being the way that it is right, like, like, on the business side, you mean kind and I guess also on the cultural side, yeah, like, because it comes out of such a specific sociopolitical context and economic context. Like, there's a reason for the intensity. There's a reason for like, I think even like how controlled it is, but if you kind of look at it without context, you just kind of like, what's going on, right, right? 

Traci Thomas  31:48

I mean, I think that's what's great about the book, is you sort of like, early on, you sort of are like, Okay, let me sort of lay this out, like what this is and how this all works, which is helpful, obviously, for someone like me who doesn't know anything, but I imagine, for people who like, maybe like the music, but aren't really, like, connected to the history of the art, which, I mean, I think that that's true of like country music and the United States. That's true of most music. Like a lot of people listen to rap music and don't understand the moments in the 1970s in New York City that informs so much of what it is and how it changes over time and all of that. And I think what is really enjoyable about your book is that whatever you're into, whatever kind of music you're into, as as a reader, you can see your world in this story, or like, you can see there is something to connect to, even if it's not the music that you listen to, unless, maybe, I think maybe, like, if you're a classical music person, it might be slightly different, because I was, like, so old and boring, you know, like, do that. But just kidding, if you like classical music, you're better than me. You're so smart, I love you. Vivaldi, anyways, I'm gonna go to jail. But another thing sort of on the same line is you talk about in the book, how much you hate when people say music is a universal language. Can you talk about that?

Giaae Kwon  33:17

I think that ties into how just this idea that if you, because we're talking about K Pop, like, if you like k pop, it somehow makes you not racist, yes, fight it to be very similar to when people try to say that they're not color blind, Yeah.

Traci Thomas  33:39

Oh, like, I listen to K Pop. 

Giaae Kwon  33:41

Yeah.

Traci Thomas  33:42

So I am-

Giaae Kwon  33:45

Yeah. 

Traci Thomas  33:45

I'm like, enlightened or easy, yeah, because you compare it also to the reading gives you empathy, yeah thing, yeah, which I mean I struggle with that. Okay, I gotta be honest. I do struggle with it, because in my experience, personally, just I'm just speaking for myself. Sometimes when I read something, I do feel like it changes my ability to understand a person, place or thing in a new way. Oh, yeah. Oh, on the flip side, though, I also understand that just because you read something doesn't mean that you're gonna have that experience or like that, it will change who you are. Like, I don't think if Donald Trump reads beloved he's gonna be like, Well, yeah, black people, did you guys hear about slavery? Like, this was not great surprise. So like, but I am of two minds, because sometimes people will be like, I read this book and it changed me. And I'm like, Okay, sure. But then sometimes I'm like, okay, but you just read a book. Like, so I sort of feel like, torn. 

Giaae Kwon  34:55

Yeah, same. Because I absolutely think reading even music even came. Up, like, it can be transformative. Like, there, there are stories of, I think I read this one tweet by this person who was like, my aunt got super into Q Anon, and then I met her again, like, a year later, and she was, like, super into pangtan and into like, supporting like, black lives matter, and like, had kind of come around to, like, you know, experience. 

Traci Thomas  35:25

Yes, this, this is a cult situation. No, I'm not kidding. So we, last year, we read that book. Last year I interviewed her, JESSELYN Cook, she wrote a book called The quiet damage about families and Q anon. She followed like, five families, and people got into Q Anon, and she talked about why and how, and basically, not to spoil her entire book, but, like, the point of her book was that people needed connection, and they needed something to do. And Q Anon, because of the Q drops, where it's like, figure this out, figure that out. Go on the message boards, talk about what you think it is, what you built a community. So when everyone decided that because Donald Trump won the presidency, they weren't going to talk to any of their family members who ever considered voting for him, all those people became isolated, and they turned online and found Q anon and found those spaces. So this person's aunt, she is not a Q anon fan or a BTS fan or whatever, a k pop fan. She just wants friends and like, if you can offer someone friends and a chat room, you could, you could get them to be clients at climate scientists. You could get them to be in Q anon. You could get them to solve world hunger like it has nothing to do with the thing. Yeah, it has so much to do with everything around the thing. Agreed, yeah. And I think that goes back to what you were saying about fandom earlier. Yeah, it's about connection. Yeah, it's about community and like, bonding over something, and it doesn't really matter what the something is, it just matters if you find the right people in there. Exactly. Yeah, because, I mean, actually, I think that's something that you were saying. I did not say that. You said that. Smarty, congratulations. Thank you for giving me credit, but I'm pretty sure you said that. I mean, I think that's interesting, because that draws me to another thing you talk about in the book, which of course, warms my heart, is Bookstagram. You talked about the Bookstagram community and the online reader community, and I feel that so much. I feel like I like books. I don't know if I would like books as much as I like books if there wasn't so many people online for me to talk to and like, if I didn't have an outlet to have the conversations that I get to have, and to build the relationships, and I certainly wouldn't read many of the things that I have read in the last seven years now. I mean, like, if I'm being frank, I never would have picked up your book if I didn't get into the reader community, you know, like, it's like, I don't why would I think that I would be curious about something that I know nothing about? Like, why would I? And so I do, I do think in those ways, these things can form empathy or at least, like, enlarge our world view. But also, again, I don't, I don't want to put too fine a point on it, because there are people who will read books or listen to music and will still be awful people. 

Giaae Kwon  38:21

Yeah, but that you also see the people who only read within their bubble, which we've talked about a lot of books gram, especially for the last few years, yes, yeah. And so I feel like that is kind of more of what I was thinking of, right where it's like, yeah, sure, you could read, but if you're only reading within your little echo chamber, you're actually never going to have that like expansive experience. You're never going to be challenged in the way that you think, because you're just reading the same I can't even think of an example, but, you know, just reading your Echo Chamber examples, I won't say them. 

Traci Thomas  38:23

Do you think to extend this analogy back to K Pop? Are you thinking of people then who just listen to the music, but like, don't have relationships with like, like, how, how does that analogy work? Back towards K Pop?

Giaae Kwon  39:14

 I think if we're gonna, if we wanted to loop this back to the issue of racism in K Pop, I think you'd see a lot of racism in K Pop, like, within the fandom. I'm not even talking industry. I'm not talking about, like, things idols say, which is its own issue. But when I was thinking about this whole idea of, like, maybe music isn't as universal as we think, it's kind of like you have a lot of K Pop fans of the West who say they love K Pop. Now. They get into, like, Korean food. They want to learn Korean. But do they see other Koreans as human? Do they see other people of color as human? And you do see a lot of it again, kind of with like, when Black fans are pointing out, like. Like, Oh, that hairstyle is appropriate. This music style is appropriative. Maybe this is an issue that, like, you know, this company took from black culture without actually understanding where it comes from, or even, like, recognizing that this is not something for them to take. So it's like, when fans point that out, there can be a lot of like, Oh, why are you like in this like, who cares? It's just music. Like, don't like, why are you like, picking fights, right? So I think kind of similar to that, like, they could be super into k pop. They could know everything about these artists. But there still is that disconnect between, Oh, I like this thing from a different culture, but I still don't see people of color as human beings equal to me. So it's kind of that disconnect that I.

Traci Thomas  40:51

Yeah, no, totally. That makes so much sense. Another big thing that comes up in the book is your relationship to your body and body shaming that you felt and feel, or have felt, I should say, from other Korean people, and sort of like grappling with that. And I'm curious less about sort of the because you write really beautifully, about the actual experiences, and more about what it was like for you to put these stories on the page. Like was that was? Was that challenging for you? Was that the most challenging part of this book? If not, what was?

Giaae Kwon  41:25

I think I would say, I hate the word journey. Okay, the word journey. I guess my journey coming out of body shaming, it's been over 10 years, and so I think having kind of that distance of doing a lot of processing, of even like confronting my community and being like this, like, essentially, kind of like you did this to me, and then kind of having a mutual I fought a lot with a lot of people, and just kind of mutually being able to, like grow from that, and like acknowledge what was done, and kind of like, process and move on. Not so much move on, because you do live with it, like I live with the constantly. One of the side effects, I guess, of like, my two book events has been like, Oh, I hate seeing photos of myself. I hate it, like it brings it all back. Because I'm just like, er.

Traci Thomas  42:19

Also those like, stupid stools that they sit you on couldn't be less flattering. Okay, I had to learn about that too when I started doing book events, especially you did one at skylight. Those chairs are hell. You look at pictures of me and them now I'm always like, basically standing up, like trying to like act. Those are particularly awful. So you know not to negate your feelings of your body, but also just know nobody looks good in those skylight chairs. 

Giaae Kwon  42:45

That's true, especially because everyone's seated lower. 

Traci Thomas  42:48

So, yeah, it's horrible. And then there's like a tree in the middle, like, kind of like, it's just, it's, it's not great for photos. Sorry, Skylight. We love you, but we love you. Yes, maybe different stores. So um, the title, yeah. How did you come up with it? Was that always the title, and if not, what other working titles did you have? 

Giaae Kwon  43:11

It was always the title. But I went into it. I think I've been trained that editors come up with titles, so I have tried not to get too wedded to my title, but I needed a title for the proposal, and I came with, I love you forever, because the Korean word for forever is young one. He and you heard it a lot in, like, early generation k pop songs like H.O.T has a song where they sing the word, like, young one, he like, you saw it everywhere. And so when I was thinking about this, I was like, Well, it did start with H.O.T and it's gone on for 30 years. And yeah, let's kind of tap into that. And yeah, they kept it.

Traci Thomas  43:56

It's such a good title. It's just, I feel like it really speaks to, like, that feeling of faith? Yeah, if this book, let's say like, were to get translated into Korean, do you have thoughts and feelings about, like, what that might be like for you, because you are Korean, but you're Korean American, and I know there is, you know, some friction sometimes, between whatever Americans and people who are from like the homeland. So how are you feeling or thinking if this does get translated into Korean, and having the book out there in that way, part of me would love it, but I think the greater part of me is terrifying. 

Giaae Kwon  44:36

Okay, part of me kind of does live in fear of a fandom, specifically army, okay? And I think of just waiting for someone to be like, You're wrong. You got everything wrong, especially when it comes to like history and like politics. But my dad. Hasn't read the whole thing, but he did read some of it, and he hasn't said my history is wrong. Liberal, so.

Traci Thomas  45:10

But You were raised in a very conservative Christian family, in a conservative Christian church, so I mean, we can take that criticism with a grain of salt. 

Giaae Kwon  45:19

I feel Yes. Again, I was like, you didn't say I'm wrong as long as Yeah, wrong, 

Traci Thomas  45:24

As long as the facts are okay, the interpretation that says to me, yes. How did you make time to write this book? And how do you write how many hours a day, how often music, snacks and beverages, rituals, talk about it? 

Giaae Kwon  45:40

Yeah. So I was working full time when I wrote this book, so a lot of just I don't have a routine. I'm very I will write when I can, when I'm not too tired. I'm a big fan of Google docs on my phone, especially when I'm in New York, because I feel like that's best for drafting. I struggled the most with first drafts. So once I can get a first draft on the page, I like revising a lot, but always listen to music like I'm not a fan of silence. Is it? Are you listening to K Pop? Or is that to usually K Pop. I think if I listen to songs in English, sometimes it's a little too distracting, because English is my primary language, so sometimes I'll just like Coke onto the lyrics too much, so I can't actually focus. But usually K Pop, sometimes orchestral Vivaldi, sometimes Vivaldi always coffee, always write, always water. 

Traci Thomas  46:47

Black coffee. How do you take it? 

Giaae Kwon  46:49

I always drink coffee with half and half, which I felt kind of embarrassed about, because people are always like, if you're a serious coffee drinker, you're supposed to drink it black. But Julia turci and drinks her coffee with half and half. Well, if it makes you feel any better, I drink my tea with half and half. So I don't if you're a serious coffee drinker and you only drink your coffee black, you're not a serious coffee drinker because you've never explored the world. That's a good way of putting it. Yeah, you know, you just have one coffee. You're serious. I don't drink coffee at all, so I don't know, but I like half and half a lot. Yeah, I agree. I like the fat and the sweetness. Yeah, yeah. Um, what about snacks? Um, you know, for a long time, I try to build an identity for myself as a snacker. And it's like the last year that I had to admit that I go through phases. Like, sometimes I'll really want to snack, but I'm not actually the biggest snack. You don't like to snack. No, you're a meal person, I guess, okay. But like, I guess I do usually like to have some chocolate. Like, I like the seas, you know how they have the little morsels? Uh, you can buy little morsels at sea. So they're like, Baking, baking chocolate. Like baking, yeah, so I'll eat those. And I only like milk chocolate. I don't like dark chocolate.

Traci Thomas  48:09

If you do half and half, you don't like dark chocolate, I think, yeah, it's safe to say, yes, yes, chocolate. 

Giaae Kwon  48:16

But right now, I'm like, really into like, Cheetos, like the regular orange Cheetos, orange Cheetos. So are my five year olds? Yeah. I used to do all about hot Cheetos, but I can't do spicy. I cannot do hot Cheeto. 

Traci Thomas  48:29

Cheetos is not my favorite. I'm definitely more of like a potato chip, like a kettle chip. Okay, person like that, just salty chip. I'm not a chip. I'm like, I had a Dorito for the first time in, like, I don't know, a decade, at like, a kid's birthday party, and had one in forever, and it was good. But if I'm gonna do like, a chip like that, like, from that, like, Variety Pack, I think I'm gonna go Frito. Oh, yeah, I like, it's not really, I don't. I talk a lot about snacks here, but not, not chips so much. But yes, and I'm gonna, you know that like Frito Lay's variety pack. Yes, it's like, Cool Ranch, regular Dorito Frito Lay, yeah, and Cheeto. I think I'm gonna go Frito from that. 

Giaae Kwon  49:17

Oh, I will go Cheeto, because my favorite, the only Doritos I eat are spicy nachos. Oh, those nachos Doritos are the best. 

Traci Thomas  49:25

Yeah, those are coming. That's like, it's, oh, that's like, really too special, yeah? 

Giaae Kwon  49:29

Sometimes, yeah, all I eat for dinner is spicy Nacho Doritos and Diet Coke.

Traci Thomas  49:34

Oh, my God, that's we have to talk about that. I literally have it on the list. I can't believe, I can't believe I almost forgot to talk about it. There's no Diet Coke in Korea. 

Giaae Kwon  49:43

There's no Diet Coke in Korea. It's Coke Zero. Yeah, that's what I said. What? Yeah, I think it's the aspartame. Which, I hesitate. Isn't that what you aspartame? I think I pronounced aspartame.

Traci Thomas  50:00

I don't know, I think it's aspartame, but I honestly, like, I made that up when I was like 10, and it was in the news a lot I see that ingredient, yeah. 

Giaae Kwon  50:05

I was like, pretty sure, whatever. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's sad. 

Traci Thomas  50:14

In South American countries, they don't technically have Diet Coke. They have Coca Light, okay, but it tastes more like Diet Coke than Coke Zero, interesting. So it is, I think it's a kind of like an equal or superior Diet Coke. It has the same like Diet Coke, okay, look, but it's coca light, uh huh, and maybe it's for similar reasons, but not having Diet Coke, I know they gotta come up with a Korean workaround for the Asperger's something. It's just like Korea is doing so much for skin care, for music, for soft power, for drama, for like. But how can we watch films? How could we go to the theater and see Parasite without a Diet Coke with our popcorn? Like I really, I don't. I don't.

Traci Thomas 1  51:09

There's no. It's not a workaround. It's not like sometimes people will come on this podcast and talk about Pepsi, and I'm just like, No, and that's the same thing to me. It's telling me you don't have Diet Coke. Is telling me you like, Diet Pepsi. Oh, it was I like, had to stop the audiobook and be like, let me take a note about this.

Giaae Kwon  51:29

Fuck. I know I had a cave and I got a Coke Zero when I was in Korea, and I it's also their cans tend to be the skinnier ones. Oh yeah. Couldn't even drink half of it, because I don't even hate Coke Zero, like I will drink Coke Zero sometime.

Traci Thomas  51:47

But if there's an option between Diet Coke and Coke Zero, it's pretty much always Diet Coke. 

Giaae Kwon  51:56

Yeah, see, I started with Coke Zero. Actually, I was all about Coke Zero, probably around like 2020, and then they reformulated Coke Zero. 

Traci Thomas  52:06

Wait, so you're new to diet coke in the last five years?

Giaae Kwon  52:09

Kind of, yeah, I wasn't the biggest, like soda drinker, but then, for some reason, I got really into Coke Zero. And then the first year of lockdown, that first Christmas, I went to spend it with my family in Baltimore, and they're all Diet Coke. So I started drinking diet coke, and then Coke Zero reformulated, and I think the New Coke Zero is terrible. 

Traci Thomas  52:33

Wow, interesting. Okay, so my diet coke origin story, nobody asked, but I'm gonna tell you is I used to drink only regular Coke, and then I went to college, and a girlfriend of mine who lived on my floor freshman year, Mary. Shout out to Mary. She's still my friend. She was, like, obsessed with Diet Coke, and she would drink, like, six Diet Cokes a day, like so much Diet Coke. And so I started this thing where I was like, Mary, you can't drink that much Diet Coke. I'm taking a Diet Coke tax. So every time she would open a Diet Coke, I would like, Have a sip of it, and then I, like, got into Diet Coke because of, like, stealing Diet Coke. And that first summer after freshman year of college, she came to visit me in California, and I was, like, drinking Diet Coke. And she was like, What the fuck? And for the last like, 20 years, I've had Diet Coke, like, almost every day. I don't drink six a day. I max. I drink two. If I'm having like, a dinner with like, burger and french fries, I'm like, Yeah, you kind of need two cans, yeah? But yes, my origin story is I was, like, trying to be the police, and then I became like, and then I really became the police because I became corrupt, and it was awesome. Anyways, yeah, it's so weird. 

Giaae Kwon  53:49

Oh, that reminds me, I need to order Diet Coke. 

Traci Thomas  53:52

I'm not a diet coke. You need Diet Coke. Everybody needs Diet Coke. Everyone. That's your reminder. Go get some Diet Coke. Yeah, um, okay, what's the word you can never spell correctly on the first try, Pennsylvania. Oh, you were ready. I love how often do you have to write? Pennsylvania? 

Giaae Kwon  54:07

Surprisingly more often, because I'm in law school. 

Traci Thomas  54:11

So when we write you went back to law school?

Giaae Kwon  54:13

Yes, I, yes, I, I didn't know that good for you. I don't know. We'll see if it's good for me or not. 

Traci Thomas  54:20

So we'll see. I mean, you could always quit, you know this, this is true, but now I'm in debt. So, oh, okay, okay, let's finish. Let's get you. But yes, Pennsylvania, okay, Pennsylvania, we'll work on that. Um, for people who love I'll love you forever. What are some other books you might recommend to them that are in conversation with your work?

Giaae Kwon  54:41

Um, I really liked for a novel. I really liked Hannah Michelle's excavations because she kind of compresses 19th century Korean history into a very readable novel. Is that the pink and red one? Yes, it's the one that's based off an actual event in Korea where, um. Um, I think was '95 the department store collapsed. So it's based off that. That was great for non fiction. I really liked ha won Chung's Flowers of Fire, which is about the metoo movement, which hit Korea, which I was very surprised by, because it's a very patriotic society. But there were pretty big impacts actually from that, so. 

Traci Thomas  55:23

Those are great runs. What do you hope people will keep in mind as they read your book? I love K Pop.

Giaae Kwon  55:26

I try to give k pop a very fair shake in the book. I think if you love something, you should be able to be critical of it. But I hope that that is something that people take away, that it's this big industry, it comes from something bigger than what it is, and, yeah, it's got issues. It's not perfect. Nothing's perfect, but it's it's a lot of fun. I love K Pop.

Traci Thomas  55:59

Last one. If you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who would you want it to be?

Giaae Kwon  56:04

I have been really trying to come up with a way to get Tableau from epi to read this. Okay, can we send it to them? I don't know. I've been trying to I've been trying to figure this out. I mean, if people are sending food to people's homes and going to the gym.

Traci Thomas  56:22

 I feel like we could just, well hire someone who doesn't I feel like we make this happen like tomorrow. It sounds like they're very accessible. Gotta get things done. When you become a lawyer, you're gonna have to really tap into this. You got to get things done. You find an intern, you send them with the book, you deliver it with a bottle of Diet Coke. And you say, drink this. Yes, read this. You'll be changed. But that's a good point. The Diet Coke is very important because that's very valuable in Korea.

Giaae Kwon  56:57

Import them in your luggage. I know I'm trying to move to Korea, like, temporarily, for like, a year or two, and that is legitimately the thing that makes me pause. I'm like, am I supposed to go a year or two with a Diet Coke? How? I'm like, I'm sorry, yeah, you can't do it. You can't move. It's not safe for you. You won't be okay.

Traci Thomas  57:20

Like, I don't everything else might be great, but it's probably not the best. Oh my gosh. Well, this was amazing. Everybody you can get your copy of I’ll Love you Forever: Notes from a K Pop fan, wherever you get your books. Audio Book is great. Physical book is great. Giaae thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me and everyone else we will see you in The Stacks. All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much to Giaae for being my guest. And I'd also like to say a big thank you to Clarissa long and Amber chair Ketty for helping to make this conversation possible. Remember our book club pick this month is Blessing the Boats by Lucille Clifton, which we will discuss on Wednesday, April 30 with Tiana Clark. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks.  To join The Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter at tracithomas.substack.com make sure to subscribe to The Stacks. Wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review for more from The Stacks. Follow us on social media @thestackspod on Instagram, Threads and Tiktok, and check out our website, thestackspodcast.com this episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero and Wy'Kia Frelot. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Megan Caballero
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