Ep. 360 Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov — The Stacks Book Club (Ira Madison III)

Written By Megan Caballero

It’s The Stacks Book Club Day, and we’re unpacking Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov with returning guest Ira Madison III. This literary classic is widely studied, but why? We explore what makes this novel a classic, why it’s still taught today, and what Nabokov wanted readers to take away from his most infamous work.

There are spoilers on this episode.

Be sure to listen to the end of today’s episode to find out what our March book club pick will be.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Ira Madison III 0:00

You can mention so many books that aren't controversial, like this. You know that people misinterpret, you know? Yes, people misinterpret Tom Sawyer, you know. And I think when you don't teach books, you lose the context in which a book was written, the time period in which it was written, and you're not being challenged in the way that the author was intending to challenge people.

Traci Thomas 0:24

Welcome to the stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and it's the Stacks book club day, and this month we are discussing the 1955 novel, Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov, with our returning guest author and podcaster Ira Madison, the third this novel follows Humbert. Humbert a man consumed by his obsession with a 12 year old girl named Dolores Hayes, who he calls Lolita. It's a book that has been widely debated for decades, both for its place in the literary canon and for the way it manipulates the reader. We talk about all that and a lot more on today's episode. As a reminder, there are spoilers on today's episode, so make sure you've either read the book before you listen, or decide that you don't care about spoilers and carry on. Be sure to listen to the end of today's episode to find out what our March book club pick will be. And as a reminder, everything IRA and I talk about on today's episode can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love this podcast, if you want inside access to it, there are two great ways that you can support the work of the stacks. You can join the stacks pack on Patreon by going to patreon.com/the stacks and slash. Or you can subscribe to my newsletter unstacked by going to Traci thomas.substack.com one of the discontinued perks of Patreon is getting a shout out on this show, and I have a few more people I need to shout out who signed up before the deadline. So thank you to Taylor Gramps, Kendall Spooner, Anna canard, Marie Le chat. Jules, Sarah untiet, Ariadne, Rebecca Owen, John Gehring B, Cheyenne, Aaron Shay, Dmitry, good COVID, J, Melanie K, powers and Sarah sharko. Again, if you want to join the sax pack, go to patreon.com/the stacks and check out my newsletter at Traci Thomas, dot sub stack.com. Okay, now it's time for my spoiler filled conversation about Vladimir Nabokov's Lolita with Ira Madison the third

right, everybody, it's book club, February book club. And I gotta say, Guys, we are here with one of our most controversial book club pics ever, which is sort of a surprise to me. We are Reading Lolita by Vladimir navakov, and we are joined again by author, podcaster, cultural critic and now friend of the pod, Ira Madison, the third IRA, welcome back. Hi.

Ira Madison III 2:55

Oh my god, causing controversy in this bookerie We are

Traci Thomas 3:02

there's some hateration in this bookerie, let me tell you. So before we even dive in, I'm gonna give a quick plot summary. People listening, we are going to spoil Lolita. It came out in 1955 if you have not read it, that's fine, but we're gonna talk about what happens in the book. I had not read it until this very month, so don't no shame in not having read it. But if you don't want to know what happens, leave and come back after you read it. Okay. So Lolita is a book about a man named Humbert. Humbert who is, for all intents and purposes, a fucking pedophile, sexual abuser he is. When the book starts, he's been institutionalized, and we get a letter from a doctor who's like what you're about to read is written by Humbert. Humbert, who's dead, and then we read all about him meeting a child named Dolores Hayes, who he eventually kidnaps, drives across the country, sexually abuses for years. And that's basically the overall promise of the book. And yeah, we're gonna dive into it deeper, but that's all you need to know for now. IRA, we always start here with book, with the book club episodes, generally, and about, you know, keep it short. Keep it sweet. What did you think about Lolita?

Ira Madison III 4:25

Listen, I read this book in undergrad, you know. And I think what's interesting about this is that, um, it's been a book that people have been talking about lately. I feel like on like, tick tock, like, younger generations are sort of discovering it. I think there's always a moment where people are like, are we reading this book? You know? I

Traci Thomas 4:49

mean, this is my first of his books. Did you Did you like it this time? Yeah.

Ira Madison III 4:54

I mean, I love the pros in this book to be honest. You know? I think that, um. He wrote this in English and then translated it to Russia, you know. And there's this, and, you know, there's this other book, pale fire, but I don't know, I and invitation to a beheading, which is what I read first in high school. At some point, just because I was, I was, like, enamored with the title. It took you a while we get to it. But, no, I don't know. I think it's a weird, interesting book. It's so if you love literature, if you love the process of writing, too. I think that it's sort of an important book to read. I think that the you know, the ability to use an unreliable narrator, is so interesting. I read this book a few months after I had finished the shards, you know, by Bret Easton Ellis. And that book is also a unreliable narrator, you know. And I think that this is sort of an introduction to that within in college for me, at least it was, you know. And just the way to write that, and way to write stories, the way to write tough subjects, too, but also, um, present them in a way that doesn't feel like traumatic and, you know, almost like it's a torture porn, you know. Yeah, yeah.

Traci Thomas 6:18

Okay, so here are my big takeaways. This is my first time reading it. I was very into the unreliable narrator of it all, and the manipulation of the audience that he does, like the way that he makes us sort of implicated in the whole thing. I think that, like, it's so unsettling for a reader to be like, Wait, what did he just say? Like he just licked her eyeball. Like I had to read the licking of the eyeballs, like, what the fuck is happening here? And that, to me, is like real skill on the back office part i i am not a flowery prose person, so I'm usually not born by some of the writing was a little long for me in parts. Like, there were definite parts where I was like, Wait, why is this the greatest novel on like, why is this everyone's favorite novel ever? Um, but it did. What I loved about the book is that it really made me think so much about this idea of like, authorial intent and like what the author owes the reader and and all of these questions that I feel like I think about a lot this book is like the case study of like art versus artist, and all of like that stuff. And I really like that. And so those were sort of like my big takeaways. I understand why people love this book, but I at the same time, I don't understand why people love this book and like, make it their personality. Like, I think, like Bradley Cooper reading this book to his very young girlfriend in France, is like,

Ira Madison III 7:54

that was, that was a wild photo. I forgot about that. I forgot about them

Traci Thomas 8:00

in the show notes. But, like, that level of Lolita love to me is, like, fucking weird as hell. But just like liking the book, I'm like, yeah, no, I get it. I get it, yeah,

Ira Madison III 8:10

I think, I think that there always exists, you know, this sort of contrarianism, you know, I think it's sort of cool, quote, unquote, cool, you know, for some people to pick this book, not just men, but, you know, like women to pick this book is like, it's their favorite book, you know, it's almost challenging, you know, just, yeah, just, not just the subject matter, but also just because of the writing, you know. But no, it's not, it's not my favorite by any means, you know. Like, I didn't even own it, yeah, when I picked it, you know?

Traci Thomas 8:46

Yeah, I think that's right. I think, like, I understand why it's a good book. I understand why it's beloved. I it made me extremely impressed with the author. Like, I was like, oh, okay, I get why people like, go balls to the wall for him. But I also was not, like, this book changed my life in any way. And I also understand people who really dislike this book. Like, I understand why you could be extremely put off by this book, but I do want to unpack some of that, because I have so many questions around a lot of that stuff. But I think where we should really start is like, what do you think Nabokov was trying to do with this book? Like, why write this book?

Ira Madison III 9:23

Well, here's the thing too, you know, I think I've read before on why teachers teach this book, you know? Oh, okay. And I think that there was one essay by a an and Dwyer who discusses why this book was maybe written then. First of all, it was about NABO COVID, love of sort of like the English language, you know. And he'd written Russian novels before, but this was him, sort of tackling America. You know, it's set in America. You know, and I think you also have to take the context of when it was written, because, you know, we have terms for, you know, sexual abuse now, you know, we talk about sex readily. You know, there's books like 50 shades of gray, you know, where we actually discuss sex, you know, like we discuss heterosexual, non heterosexual sex, you know, which we couldn't do, you know, even in, like the time of Oscar Wilde, right when he was writing, and in 1950s America, she writes that, like polite society pretended sex didn't exist, you know, and many of us are now comfortable acknowledging discussing sex between consenting adults. But you know, teenagers, especially, you know, did not have a language for this, you know. And I think that he wrote, that he wrote, in an essay titled on a book entitled Lolita, that there were three taboos. American publishers refused to tackle the first concerns Lolita. He never like names the exact taboo. The second is quote, a negro white marriage, which is a complete and glorious success, resulting in lots of children and grandchildren. And then the third is that total atheist who lives a happy and useful life and dies in a sleep at the age of 106, so you know, sex, race and religion were taboo subjects in the 50s, and there's still sort of subjects that are causing controversy to this day. You know,

Traci Thomas 11:30

yeah, yeah, I think, I think that's right. I feel like, I feel like to the question of, like, why it's taught in schools? I do have that question, like, I think it's weird to teach this in high school,

Ira Madison III 11:44

yeah? Because I'm just like, this was college, by the way, but yeah, not

Traci Thomas 11:47

high school, but I know a lot of people read it in high school. I'm pretty sure people read it in high school. And I do think I'm like, I wish I need, if you're a teacher listening to this and you teach this book, tell me why. Because I do think that there are other books that might be better for young people around, like unreliable narrators, or, like, beautiful writing, where you don't have this, like, weird cultural obsession with underage girls being part of it, because, and I want to get to this later, but like, one of the things about Lolita is, like, there's the book Lolita, and what's in the book. And then there's the term Lolita, and what it means culturally, and like, the objectification of young women, and sort of, like in the movies, turning her into, sort of turning it into a love story, which, I mean, I don't think this book is a love story. I think this book is a story about a predator. And I think, like, now, you know, 70 years after the books come out, it's interesting that people like still teach it, knowing that it's tied up and all of that other stuff. And maybe that's why they teach it. I don't know. I'm not a teacher. I would be too scared to teach this in school, because, like adults reading this book with us this month are so mad at me about it, like, I cannot imagine getting those parent letters teaching

Ira Madison III 13:04

this in school. I mean, there's also the question, I think, of censorship, right? You know, like, first of all, he wasn't even published in the Soviet Union, you know, and I think, but one of the common places of the communist party she wrote was, you know, like, discussions of forbidden books, you know. And it was sort of, I haven't read it, but dot, dot, dot. But, um, yeah, you know, I think it was about, he was writing this specifically because he didn't want people to fall in the trap of placing judgment on books they hadn't read. And I think he was sort of pushing someone writes, you know, the essay that I mentioned like writes that he's pushing Americans with their Express ideology of freedom to notice where they enact censorship, to

Traci Thomas 13:50

Well, I think this is what's been so fascinating about reading this book right now, at the beginning of this second Trump administration, where book bans are coming up constantly. I mean, I just saw a thing today that JD Vance's book is on the list of getting banned under some new Trump whatever at the Department of Defense, like that. One thing

Ira Madison III 14:07

about the tables, yeah, they turn. Okay,

Traci Thomas 14:11

they turn. But I think, like, what I found really interesting is so many people who have reached out to me on social media being like, why are you reading this? Like, and they want to, they want to censor the reading of this book, even though they would tell you they're, again, they're not like for book bands, but like, so I think that's really interesting, too. This book feels like a sort of litmus test for a lot of progressive air quotes, cultural talking points, right? It's like this idea that we should be, we should be reading widely and like we should be thinking about these things. But as soon as a book presents this taboo, and I think nawa COVID, right, those taboos still are alive and well, you know, 70 years later. But I do think I was the irony of like people being like, don't ban books, don't ban books, and then being like, you shouldn't read that book. Yeah. Okay, but why? Why not that book? Um, so one of the things in the essay that you talk about at the end of the book, or at the one like on Lolita, he wrote it a year after the book came out, and he talks a lot about, like, moralizing and the whether the author sort of owes his readers, they are readers. Any answers, like, does the book need a moral point of view? He argues for something that he calls esthetic bliss, which is basically just like good writing, like good storytelling, and that there is no moral to the story in his mind. As you read the book, do you buy that? Do you buy that? Nabokov has no point of view about this book and slash or do you think authors owe their readers a point of view about their work, a clear point of view about their work? I actually

Ira Madison III 15:58

don't think so. You know? I mean, I think at the end of the day, you can take or leave a piece, but, you know, I think that you shouldn't have to impose a point of view on an author, you know. And I'm thinking about another author that I enjoy, you know, like I just said, I was reading the shards, which is, um, he's sort of not even controversial anymore, you know, because he's just always talking so he's not getting in trouble. He's just always talking about not really getting in trouble anymore. But, um, I remember American Psycho, you know, like when I was reading the stuff about American Psycho, you know, being unpublished at the last minute and then being picked up by not and just this idea that, um, that's also a book that's become, like, culturally, you know, like, a lot of people are like, it's my favorite book, you know, and, um, I don't particularly, actually love American Psycho and much, because

Traci Thomas 16:53

I think I liked it a lot, but I read it years ago. I was not born,

Ira Madison III 16:58

yeah, no, I was never bored. I think it's in terms of versus other books. I think they're other ones are better, but the only one, okay, I think it's fun, you know. And I think that, um, you go back to that time and you think about, you know, um, people writing essays, people, you know, burning the book, you know, people saying it's, um, you know, morally wrong. And like, you know, like for him to be writing this book, you know, from the perspective of a serial killer, like a cannibal, you know? And it's sort of like, it's going to inspire people to do that. And, you know, I think it's just, I don't know, it's interesting to see the self censorship that pops up in Liberal circles with books, you know, when they went to cry, it in other realms. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 17:42

I don't feel personally that an author owes me anything except for a well written book, if I like it or not, if I agree with their point of view or not. That's between me and my my own thinking. But I don't need Nabokov to to clearly lay out what he thinks about Humbert, Humbert and Lolita. I think if he's written a good book, the answer will feel clear to me, even if it's not the same answer that feels clear to you. Like my more My thing is pretty clear to me too. Honestly, this book feels crystal clear the fact that it is misinterpreted. But then again, I'm like, if, because it's misinterpreted so much, is that his fault is, does that mean that nabaca failed in some ways, that this work of his has turned into children are sexy, because, in a lot of ways, that's how people think of like a Lolita. You know? I think

Ira Madison III 18:38

that one it's, you know, when you think of the Stanley Kubrick film, which is, I think, better than the Adrian lean film, even though I like Adrian's other films, you know, I think that people are always going to interpret text. You can mention so many books that aren't controversial, like this. You know that people misinterpret, you know? Yes, people misinterpret Tom Sawyer, you know, you know. I mean, I feel like people misinterpret Mark Twain's intentions, you know. And I think a lot of what happens is, when you don't teach books, you lose you when you don't have a teacher teaching a book, right, you lose the context in which a book was written, the time period which was written. And of course, many things can feel very different if you're not reading it, if you're not that exact reader, you know, if you do not have the mind of a person in the 50s reading this book, you know, and you're not being challenged in the way that the author was intending to challenge people. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 19:43

there's another article, and I'm going to link to all these things in the in the show notes, but there's another piece about by Nabokov about It's called How to Be a good reader or kindness to authors. That's like the title, you know, the or that's. And he's such a pretentious asshole. I fucking love it. But he talks about, like, how, like, what readers should, should be doing, like, how to, like, literally, how to be a good reader. And one of the things he talks about is, like, not going in with a preconceived notion. And I feel like that's so much of what's happened with Lolita is, like, before you ever open the book, you're like, This is a book about about either you go in and you're like, This is a book about a disgusting pedophile and the Bucha is disgusting for writing it, or you go in and this is about a love story. And, like, neither of those things are really what the book is about. Or, like, what's in the details of the book. And so I think, I think he would hate the way that this book is read today. Like, I think he would be like, are you guys fucking kidding me? I even laid out instructions, like, how to read this book, notes on Lolita, like, I'm fucking telling you. And to that end, we should talk about what's in the book. We will come back to some of this other cultural discussion, but I want to start with just the introduction. So the forward to the forward is a faux forward I was on like, Reddit and people being like, why would I read the foreword? I never read the forward until after I finished the book, and I thought it was a like, and I was like, oh, gag. The girls immediately. I'm like, Well, you missed the fucking whole setup. The forward of the book is a letter to the reader from this doctor. What's his name? John Jay or something. John Ray, Jr, PhD, okay, dr, RIT, and he talks about finding this Lolita or the confession of a white widowed male and in the beginning of the book. So this is not a spoiler. It's literally on like page two or three, he tells us that both Humber, Humber and Dolores Hayes, who has a new married name, are dead. So you met you missed it. I missed it too. I didn't know that was her new name. And it sort of sets up like John. John Ray is like, I'm not glorifying this. I'm just sort of presenting this because we should be like, thinking about these kinds of people who are troubled.

Ira Madison III 21:58

Lolita should make all of us, parents, social workers, educators, apply ourselves with still greater vigilance and vision to the task of bringing up a better generation in a safer world. Is what how that forward ends. And you know, when you think about the book too, it's, um, it's the 1950s sex is taboo. You know, like Ricky and Lucy aren't even sleeping in the same bed together. I Love Lucy, which then means that it is probably easier for, you know, adults to prey on children. You know, in this time period, there was this a period when everyone trusted their neighbors, you know, like you didn't think, like serial killers were rare. But you know, because people were trusting a smile of a white man, you know, like white men weren't dangerous in this period, you know. And I think that it also challenges we'll get to in this when we talk about, you know, young Lolita. But I think that Lolita is presented as smarter than Humber, you know, in many ways, you know. And there's just a shocking moment too, where he's, like, he's obsessed with her purity, you know, and then the moment when she talks about being at camp and, like, already having experience, you know, like sexual activity with other young kids, you know, I think that, um, it also challenges the notion of, um, what parents think that, You know, their kids are doing with other kids. And what do kids who are attracted to each other, like? What should they be doing with one another, you know? And What should parents be thinking about it? Etc,

Traci Thomas 23:30

yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that's totally spot on. I want to come back. I want to spend a lot of time on Dolores in a second, but, or aka Lolita. And I think we could talk about when, when, when we use which names for her, and why. But so we get this like, little introduction. Then we go into the book. It starts with the famous lines like, Lolita. My love Lolita. So, so romantic. Um, and from the beginning, I mean, from the forward, from the very beginning, we are told this person has problems. He is not to be trusted, and yet, still, I found myself being persuaded by him. I was charmed by him in some ways because he's so I feel like it's because he tells you everything so forward, like, so forward that you're like, Oh, well, he's not lying to me. Like, it's so repulsive what he's saying. Like, why would he lie to me? And I think that's like, such a great sleight of hand for a writer, because I feel like sometimes when you get an unreliable narrator, it's like they're keeping things from you so you don't fully trust them. Because you're like, Oh, I know you're a liar and you're not telling me what's up, but in this case, he's telling us the truth air quotes, and we know he's lying, but because he's so forward with some of the most like disgusting details about things, you're like, right? Okay, humbert's my guy. And then you remember the layer on top of that, which is that he's writing this to the to. Ladies and gentlemen of the German So ultimately, he's, this is his testimony. He's trying to persuade us he's lying to us on purpose, but because he's letting us in on some of the things we know he's hiding some of the darker things. And I just think, like, I don't know. I think that's so fucking hard to do, and like to have a liar feel believable, and because usually it's like I'm lying. Wink, wink, wink. You know, also

Ira Madison III 25:25

there's the idea that, you know, he's an unreliable narrator. From the jump, you know, because so many books with an unreliable narrator, it's a thing where you have to discover late through reading the book, yes, that they're alive,

Traci Thomas 25:41

that's right. I mean, not to give a spoiler on a really old movie, but I think all the time about, oh, my God, what's the Kevin Spacey movie?

Ira Madison III 25:49

Oh, the usual suspects.

Traci Thomas 25:50

The Usual Suspects. It's like, they save that twist till the last 30 seconds, right? And like and like. So then you're like, Oh, it was all a lie, but it's crazy to read a book from the very first time you are introduced to the or the first time the person speaks to you, to be like, this, don't trust this guy. Whatever you do, this guy's fucked up, and then to still be like, I mean, was that really a lot like? So I think that like, really is amazing. And I think, like using the tool of us being his jury and his audience, and like really engaging with us in that way, like, there's the scene where he's like, I want you to come with me and do this. I want you to, I want you to feel what I felt in these moments. Like, come on, reader, you get to be a pedophile too. Like, come on in you're I'm not doing this alone. Now. We're all doing this together, and it like leaves you feeling icky because you're like, don't, don't do this to me. Like, but I have to keep reading. I have to know what happens. Yeah, that's, I

Ira Madison III 26:50

mean, it's very American Psycho, you know, I think that's very, you know, it implicates the reader in the murders. And what's so interesting, too, about his narration is, I don't know. I'm just like, one the pros is gorgeous. If you've never listened to the audiobook that Jeremy Irons, it's so good. I'm just like, as a writer this, like, obviously, the flowery prose can be annoying, and I hate that shit a lot of times too. But you know, like, otherwise, just the writing itself is, is gorgeous, you know, it like it could teach you writing, you know? And, yeah, could teach you a character, just because I love the moments when he slips out of telling the story, like, when he's, um, when he starts getting upset with, like, the prison library. Yes,

Traci Thomas 27:39

it's so believable. Like, it's so believable. And he, like, goes on and on about some things and then some things, like, he doesn't want to talk about. It's like, one sentence in and out, we're done. When he

Ira Madison III 27:49

talks about things so openly and, you know, sort of disgusting, right? You also notice that he does not really describe any of the sexual acts with Lolita themselves, you know, like, it's very, um, shielded from that, exact specifics of that. Well,

Traci Thomas 28:07

and I, I want to talk about that too, because there's some things I think about that. I think part of it is because he knows that we're the jury and, like, it's not going to be, it's not going to endear us to him, for him to describe those behaviors in the 1950s or happening in the 1940s but I also think Nabokov is doing something really smart with that, which I do want to get to. Okay, so we meet him. He talks about his like, childhood love, who died young, as sort of this justification for falling in love with Lolita Dolores, which we which I don't buy, because obviously, later on, and there's so many other nymphs that he's attracted to like, he's like, Oh, she reminds me of of my childhood love. But then it's like, also, there's that girl and this girl, that girl, you're like, Okay, so maybe it's just that she's young, yeah. Like, it's like, okay, dude, you're fucking lying.

Ira Madison III 28:53

Also Annabelle, who he's reminded of his childhood. Yes, I'm sure you read that. It was like, it was probably Nabokov doing a play on words on Edgar Allan Poe's young

Traci Thomas 29:07

bride, yes, yes. And his poem, there's a poem. It's like Annabel Lee or something, yeah, yes. There's a lot of references in this book, a lot of references, and I'm sure many of them went over my head, because I'm not reading this in 1955 so like, things that would be, like, culturally relevant. I'm just like, I don't fucking know. So fast forward, he goes to this town. He's supposed to live with these people, but then they have a fire in their house, and so he gets put up at this lady, Charlotte's house. Charlotte has a daughter, Dolores. Dolores becomes Lolita. He is repulsed by Charlotte. Charlotte is disgusting to him. Lolita is his nymphet, his everything. She's beautiful, she's perfect, she's whatever they have some interactions, they send Lolita away to Dolores, away to school, and then Charlotte's like, I love you. I've loved you since the moment I laid eyes on you. I love you. Of course. According to him, this is the letter she writes. I love you. I love you. I love you. Don't ever leave my side. Actually go away from me for now, unless you love me too, if you're still here, like, it's like this whole crazy thing that he reads. And then he tells us that he reads the letter from Charlotte in lolitas bed. And I was just like, ew. Like, it's like, you're reading this whole scene. And then all of a sudden, there goes Humbert being a fucking creep out of nowhere. So he ends up marrying Charlotte, and then he tells us approximately three different times that he wants to kill her. He wants her dead. And then Charlotte discovers his writings about Lolita and Charlotte, and she writes some letters herself. She runs out of the house while he's in the other room trying to, like, fix a drink to, like, smooth things over, and she's hit by a car and killed. The most important question I have for you in this entire episode is, did he kill her? I

Ira Madison III 30:58

think so. How did he do it? I think just the entire thing about the car is probably just made up.

Traci Thomas 31:05

Okay? You just think, okay, okay, okay, okay, just a lie. It's a whole lie. Because, okay, it's gotta be a fucking murder. The idea that it's an accident is just so crazy to me, and I guess that's true. Like, he just, it's not like he could, like, people are gonna go on Google and be like, what happened to Charlotte Hayes? Like, it's just Hayes? Like, it's just

Ira Madison III 31:23

whatever well, because even the doctor at the beginning, you know, talks about how this, he's unearthing this letter that was, he's unearthing the story to the jury, right? And like, if it hadn't been for unearthing this, like, the actual case of, like, the whole incident, no one remembered anymore, you know. And so he sort of bringing it to light, which means that, you know, like, he could have just said whatever he wanted to say, you

Traci Thomas 31:50

know. Okay, good. Because later in the book, Lolita, at least twice, I think, is like, you killed my mom. You're a murderer. That's what she says to him after he kidnaps her. And I'm like, yeah, no, I'm with you, girl. But how did he do it okay? So he kills the mom. He goes to pick Lolita up from her little summer camp and takes her away, and sort of convinces everyone that he is actually a former lover of Charlotte's. And they go way back and that Lolita actually, or Dolores actually, might be Humbert and Charlotte's child all grown up, so he's the real father of the child, which is so twisted, and then drives her around. They go to a hotel. He sexually abuses her, he assaults her, he rapes her, and then she's like, When can I see my mom? And this is what is the end of Act Two, act one, and it's devastating. He's like, you can't she's dead. Then she comes back to him after leaving the room because she has nowhere else to go. So we we end part one with just like trapped child predator. Continue forth. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Okay, we're back. I feel like I'm doing a lot of plot analysis, but we'll kind of going through this fast. Lolita Dolores and Humbert go on two humongous road trips where he takes her to all these different hotels and rapes her across the country, so much driving, so much Americana. Did any of this have an impression on you of like the driving and the suburbia of it all? Yeah.

Ira Madison III 33:35

I mean, I think it you really do have to understand this book from the perspective of him writing about America, you know, the fact that he wrote it in English too, and then translated into Russia. And I think that he really was getting in the mindset of, I'm writing about, you know, the banality of America and American culture. You know,

Traci Thomas 33:59

yes, yes. It's like, such a study on America. And it's like, I think he's like, sort of shaping Americana in real time, like in the 1950s he's writing about cars, right? And like, I feel like, you know, we think so little of cars now because they're such an everyday thing. But like, in the 50s, have, like, driving cross country and like, sort of having this, like, luxurious car lifestyle is now how we think about, like jet setters. He's shaping the myth of America. You know, they're going through these suburbs, they're going to all these, like, beautiful little bedroom communities, and that is shaping, like what white America looks like and like, they're not going to New York City, they're not going to Chicago, they're going to these, they're going to Ramsdale, they're going to, you know, these little places. And I think it's like he's crafting a version of America for for America in real time, like leaving his stamp on America. And a lot. Of ways

Ira Madison III 35:01

and showing. Oh, so,

Traci Thomas 35:03

no, no, go ahead. Interesting, yeah,

Ira Madison III 35:05

which I also find it made me think of The X Files, you know, I don't know The X Files, well, the X Files, in essence, is this show about, you know, Mulder and Scully, and they're investigating, you know, supernatural, odd cases, you know. But it's, there's this great essay by one of my former co workers from interview news, Brian Phillips at Grant land, which just talks about the time period when X Files was written, you know. And it's like pre internet, really, you know, like in the early it's in the infancy of the internet. It's when there are still small towns in America that are sort of not connected to each other. You know, you can something weird can be happening in a small town, and you might not hear about it, you know, like you might not hear about this strange case that's happening in this town in Ohio, but now you hear about it because the internet, etc, whatever you know, but Right? You're going from small town to small town in these small communities. And I think that it's really just about what, what can creep into a community, you know, they're, they're driving around these small, you know, conclaves, and there this Humber evil was like traveling from town to town, you know. And that was happening in the 50s, you know. And I think these small white communities were concerned, you know, about like, black people, you know, like sundown towns, etc, right? But I think the story is really just about the evil that sort of can exist within a straight white male and this young girl who's with him, and like, he's going into these towns. And, you know, are you assume that's just his daughter, you know, and like, but it's like, it's like what people think about. It's about what people think about, what you see, for instance, and just about what was allowed to travel across America in this time. I mean, it's no, I mean, it is no coincidence that, you know, the green book had to exist during then, right? You know, like a town that it was safe for black people to travel to if you're doing a road trip, but he was going anywhere. Yes,

Traci Thomas 37:21

and I think, like, who we trust? Who is the reliable per the reliable narrator of real life, right? Like, you're not going to question this, like, European man and his daughter, they're like, you know, it's safe. This is a safe place. Nothing bad happens here. And I think not to jump ahead to sort of like my final thesis of the book. But I think more than anything else that Nabokov is trying to do with this book, I think he is trying to say Humbert. Humbert and what he does to Dolores Hayes is as normal as everything else in America. It is as normal as a road trip. It is as normal as a suburban community, all of the abuse, all of the harm done to children by by these by these abusers, is it is ordinary. Humbert actually isn't special, and he makes him ordinary by letting us into that world, but he also then makes her ordinary right, like all of these abusers that we have now today, all of their victims are made ordinary because there's so many of them, right, like that this whole thing is like fundamental to the American story, in the same way that a road trip is that a suburban town is like, and I think like That, to me is like, what this book is about is, like, this icky shit that makes you as a reader feel uncomfortable is nothing new. It's been going on forever, and it's going on right now, and if you turn away, if you ignore it, you're no better than the people who didn't protect Dolores, right like, and I think that's like, I think that. I think that the driving and the going to these places, and the constantly being sort of on the move, but also talking to people, and being around people, and her making friends with other kids in these different places, I think all of that plays into the ordinariness of of what I see as what, like Nabokov is trying to do. I think

Ira Madison III 39:20

it's incredible. I think you really hit the nail on the head of, like, why you should be teaching this novel now too, you know, because I, I've been thinking of this video I saw, you know, at, you know, like, like a county where they were, you know, trying to ban, you know, you know, banning drag queens and things from doing readings and stuff like that, you know. And someone was testifying, you know that drag queens of you know, like our people, they're in our community, they babysit our kids, etc, you know. And but people like the church or like other men, like in this community, who have abused kids or women, you know, like we turn a blind to them, or, you know that they just. And you just sort of move on with it, you know? And I think it's really an important thing about just looking at what's woven into the fabric of America, instead of looking at what feels odd and what feels different, you know, yes, it's the familiar you should be afraid of. Yes,

Traci Thomas 40:20

the ordinary, that's so right. Okay, let's talk a little bit about Dolores slash Lolita. I listened to Jamie loftuses podcast, the Lolita podcast, that came out a few years it was like, really long. It's like 12 episodes or 10 episodes, like 12 hours. It's so long. She talks about the book. She talks about, like the Lana Del Rey of Lolita. She goes like, deep into the culture, but one of the things that she talks about is the difference between Dolores and Lolita. And she basically describes it as like Dolores is the actual child and Lolita is this like fantasy that's like the parts of her that Humbert has created, whereas like Dolores is the person. And I found that to be like a really astute observation, and I think maybe, maybe not a hard one to make, but one that I hadn't quite been able to articulate for myself. But I really liked it. And in doing that, it made me think a lot about the title of the book. This is a book about Humbert. Humbert told from Humbert. Humbert story about his relationship with a child named Dolores, but it is called Lolita. And I want to know what you make of that, if anything,

Ira Madison III 41:31

I definitely see that, you know. I think that if you know NABO COVID history, you know, and that he was molested as a child, you know, I think that you sort of have to take how he writes Humbert, you know, as he doesn't like this person, you know. And so I think that there's definitely, probably this compartmentalization of, you know, like creating two characters, maybe almost even like he had two character, two different cells, you know, in his own mind, yeah,

Traci Thomas 42:03

yeah. I think, I think that the erasing of Dolores from the book is, is the whole, you know, point of it? Well, if you think of Yeah, I think it's the point of it. But I think also, like you and I both have background in like the theater, and I think as far as like the subtext or like the intentionality of the character, the whole driving force behind Humbert is to erase Dolores from the story, and to have us be so interested in Lolita that we forget that there is a human being child whose life was ruined. And so I think like, are you able

Ira Madison III 42:37

to romanticize Lolita the way some people do? You know, it's while I was able to get away with the I was seduced, you know, by her. You know, like, like you're thinking of, he's describing Lolita to the audience of someone he's created. Because that story is easier than describing Dolores,

Traci Thomas 42:55

right? Because the center of the book, though it's told by Humber, and it's about his relationship with Dolores, is the idea of Lolita, and it's how he's able to sort of justify the whole thing. It's also, I think, why he goes back and forth between the first and third person when he's talking about himself, right? It's like hot, like he can distance himself from the worst parts of himself. But I think, like this again, the skill of Nabokov to pull off the feeling that Dolores is there, but also is not like that she's been erased in parts. And like, just to give us glimpses of her throughout the book is really, again, an impressive feat for an author to like, have a character who is on stage or on screen the whole time, basically by this man's side, and to feel like we don't know her at all. By the end of the book, to feel like who is Dolores, and we just get these little chilling moments, like the part at the end of part one, where she has nowhere else to go and she comes back. Or when she's like, when he's overhearing her talking to her friend about death, and he is, like, surprised by her answer. And like, that's like a, we get these like glimpses of of Dolores that are just, like, just really devastating, like, her crying in bed every night. Yeah, yeah. I just, I think, like, that's a real I mean, I don't know. I don't think people do that well, like, I don't think it's easy to erase a character that's present, yes,

Ira Madison III 44:27

and then, of course, there's, you know, the the letter at the end, you know, the T of it all, and him laying, you know, sort of this crime on a different man that he's killed,

Traci Thomas 44:39

right? Which is, to my point, of it being so ordinary that there's literally a whole second pedophile, yeah? Like, like, I'm just like, this isn't Humbert is so not special. There's a whole other Humbert that we could have a whole other book about named Claire quilty. We just don't get that book like that. He's dead instead, like, it's. So crazy. Um, okay, I want to talk about the most disturbing parts of this book for you. If you had any parts where you were like, this is you've really because we talked about how, like, a lot of the sexual acts aren't on the page.

Ira Madison III 45:16

Um, I think maybe just the parts where, they're leg in bed together are very weird, the hotel room stuff. You know that stuff is just disturbing to me. I

Traci Thomas 45:27

think I was most disturbed by the licking of the eye. That was really that bridge too far disgusting. I'm just like, weird. Yeah, it was. It worked me. And then, do you remember the part where he's talking about marrying a Lolita and then having a Lolita two, and then having a Lolita three, the grandchild, that was pretty, that was pretty disgusting. But I to your point about, like, not writing about the sex acts. I think, I mean, I think that's so intentional, because I think he wanted the sexual abuse to feel almost boring or mundane, and like to remove the salaciousness out of it, so that it does feel ordinary and pedestrian, right? Like both. Humbert wants to do that because we're his jury. But I think nabaca, again, it's like all to the case of like, this is nothing special. This happens to children all the time. And like, How dare you act like this is news to you. His

Ira Madison III 46:23

essay to on Lolita just also discuss, you know, when you're writing something that's like, a taboo topic, or, you know, like, lewd, or whatever, you know, in America, like, you know, he says, so many people expect it, you know, book like this to get increasingly, you know, like, yes, gross and like, crazy and descriptive and like, the abuse and everything in the sex, but it does it, you know. And like, you sort of detest that kind of writing,

Traci Thomas 46:51

yeah, yeah, yeah. And this book originally is published in France at sort of like a pornographic publisher, before it gets picked up by Putnam and sons. Or I think it's just Putnam at the time Sun has taken over, but I think maybe there's more suns to come. So even, like, the way, the place it's published, lends to the belief that it's gonna be this really salacious thing, like this really pornographic thing he's

Ira Madison III 47:18

playing with expectations the whole time. You know, I also think it's very interesting, too, that he writes, sort of at one point too, that for me, a work of fiction exists only insofar as it affords me what I shall bluntly call esthetic bliss, that is a sense of being somehow somewhere connected with other states of being, where art, curiosity, tenderness, kindness, ecstasy is the norm. There are not many such books. All the rest is either topical trash or what some call the literature of ideas, which very often is topical trash coming in huge blocks of plaster that are carefully transmitted from age to age, until somebody comes along with a hammer and takes a good crack at Balzac, at Gorky, at man. So he's also being like, I'm not trying to write, you know, a lesson for people. You know, he

Traci Thomas 48:03

does not want to write a lesson. He does not feel that that is the job he is. No he Yes, and like he, he famously hates everybody, I guess, like, I found a list on the internet of just like, things he said about people. It's like, it's like, mediocrity. My favorite one is what he calls Bertolt Brecht. He calls Brecht a non entity. He calls Oscar Wilde a rank moralist, which to me, feels like the most personal one of all of them, like he's really disgusted by the idea that any work should have any lesson to teach anyone like that that is, that is his or any author's job, which I think gets to sort of like my last really big question for us, which is about the art being conflated with the artist. Because I think one of the things that happens with this book is that people walk away from it, hating Nabokov, thinking that he is some sort of a creep, that he is a pedophile, that he is, you know, exploiting this fictional child, or that he, like, gets off on this. And I think, like, first of all, there is evidence that he was sexually abused as a child from his uncle. I will link to that article, and that that he probably is more in line with the low like exploring those experiences from the side of Dolores versus from Humbert. But also like

Ira Madison III 49:28

to, which makes sense, you know that, I mean, it's almost very um Toni Morrison in an effect, you know, the way that she, you know, can get into the minds of characters and write about but traumas that she's experienced, etc. Baldwin has written, you know, if you're reading another country, the opening of that, you know, is about like an assault, you know. And I think it's um, it makes so much sense that someone who would experience that as a child would write about that, but also write about it, not from their perspective. Write about it from the perspective of this other person. Right,

Traci Thomas 50:00

yes. And I think to like, try to, you know, not, not to ascribe anything to him, but like that, there would be an impulse to want to understand what happened to you better, or to at least fabricate an understanding, to at least, like, make a version of it that maybe makes sense or even is like fun to play with like, I sometimes feel like, you know, writers talk about writing villains and how much fun it is. I know actors talk about how playing villains is like, you know, everybody wants to play Richard the Third, He's the great villain, you know, like that. There's something for for an artist in the ugly and the disgusting that they want to get inside. And he even says in the how to be a good reader essay, like, the writer's job is to be a storyteller, a teacher, an enchanter. But the last thing the enchanter is what makes a writer Great. Yeah, that is the piece of it. It's not the storytelling or the teaching. It's the it's the magic of the writing. And

Ira Madison III 50:59

he hated Freud so much that, you know, he probably, that he, you know, it's probably exactly because he was Freud had him pegged for why he was writing this book. Yeah, that's exactly right.

Traci Thomas 51:09

And like, I think, I think, you know, it's interesting to write a book like this and to, like, allow yourself to be come the villain, even if your intent or not your intent, even if, I mean, if your intent is just to do esthetic bliss, but that he really becomes such a topic and conversation about this particular work in a way that, like it's inextricably linked to him, in a way that some books are not. They need

Ira Madison III 51:38

rappers like him, you know.

Traci Thomas 51:39

Okay, Nikki. He was

Ira Madison III 51:43

the he was the Nikki of his time. Maybe yes,

Traci Thomas 51:47

for sure. Do you think this book could be published now? As is yes, you do. Yes.

Ira Madison III 51:51

Honestly, I think because the same, I think the same thing to bring up American Psycho again, I think that the idea of banning books now is obviously very conservative and Republican, etc, you know. But, yeah, the idea of people getting widespread upset enough about a book where it's not being published, you know, I think that books just aren't so much woven into the fabric of society anymore. You know, with like TV, everything you know, like this movie would probably get bad, you know, yeah, sure, if it weren't based on the book, you know, if it were an original movie, yeah, it would be getting bad, you know. But now I think that, you know, no one would be I think it's hard to get a book outright, like we're not publishing this, you know, yeah, I

Traci Thomas 52:36

think the book could be published now, I don't think it has an audience. I don't think it's named a classic. I don't think it has staying power now. I think people, I think people now, are like, that's disgusting. I don't even want to think about it. I think the only reason it's something that people even read now is because it has the stamp of classic on it, and so people feel like they have to deal with it more intensely than they might something new. But I also think it's really interesting, because there's so many books that come out now that are published about young people experiencing sexual abuse that are celebrated. I mean, Oprah just had a few years ago night crawling on her book list, and it was about a black girl in Oakland who becomes a sex worker. And it was based off the true story of the police ring where they were, like, raping this child of the Oakland police officers. Like, that's really fucking dark too, and it's on Oprah's list. And so I think there's something about, like, the racial politics of some of this stuff too, that we probably don't really have time to get into. But I think that it's there, like, we reread stories of like, trans kids who have been sexually abused, and nobody bats an eye about it, or says, like, we shouldn't be reading this, because

Ira Madison III 53:43

it feels like it's just, you know, like a reclamation, you know, like you're taking back tonight, right,

Traci Thomas 53:48

right? And it feels like, like you're doing good work by like, by like, witnessing these things, but

Ira Madison III 53:53

also someone who is like Nabokov, like, now, you know, writing this book, you know, like, um, it wouldn't even be the same book, you know. Now anyway, you know, because it would be about everything that he was writing about, you know, for, you know, getting into 50s America and, you know, like, exposing, like, the banality of like, evil in America, you know, I think that it would take a different bent. Now, you know,

Traci Thomas 54:16

yes, I think so. I think he would be way ahead of it would be the stuff we don't want to touch now, which I'm not exactly sure what that is, but, yeah, I think you're right. I mean,

Ira Madison III 54:24

I think it would get into, you know, sort of what you we open the podcast talking about, you know, like, you have a concept of, like, this narrator would be very much aware of, you know, people don't want to hear this, you know, because they're, you know, like they're, don't ban others. Ban this book, but don't ban other books. You know, I think that would probably be one of the main thrusts of it. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 54:46

I think that's right. And I think it would be playing on, like political correctness more Absolutely, like playing with what, what is allowed, which is to that point, yeah, I think, I think the. The ways in which the ways in which certain stories about child abuse are okay and like accepted and even celebrated and like uplifted, and the ways that certain books aren't, I think part of it is because this book is told from the perspective of the abuser, but I think that that is important, like we actually need more fiction that gets inside the heads of horrible, horrible people. If the goal of fiction, quote, unquote, to some people, is to learn and to empathize, right? Like we can't only tell the stories of people who have been victimized because they aren't victimized in a vacuum. Like there are, there are abusers that need to be dealt with, and there's

Ira Madison III 55:37

this whole industry now, you know, just like writing looks like, not crawling, or like other things where it's just like, um, writing just sort of like, um, you know, hard to read, you know, like, sort of like dark books, you know, and it's sort of like, um, you write a book like that, and you'll end up on Oprah's list, you know, right? And not to degrade that book, you know, but like, there's a whole like, um, there's a whole track for it now, you know,

Traci Thomas 56:00

like these, like, sort of, like, books that are about these really hard topics. And I don't, and I like, I don't think, you know, yeah, like, trauma poor, and I don't think that that's wrong. And I think, like, you know, I mean, I personally loved night crawling, but I do think that, like, beautifully written, but i Yes, but I do think that there's a safe space to plug that book into where it's like, okay, we can read a book like this, and this isn't implicating us the reader. This is just us saying the Oakland Police Department is bad, and I'm not part of the Oakland Police Department, but this book says, Anyone read Lolita says anyone reading these pages is implicated in some way. And if you turn away, you're as implicated as if you lean into it right, like that, there's no escaping, sort of this, this conundrum. And again, I mean, I think that, I think that's probably why it has staying power. Is like it will creep you out in 1955 it will creep you out in 2025 like, can't wait till my kids are assigned it in high school, and I have to play this episode for them and be like, I don't know how to help you. Last, last, last, last thing. And then we'll get out of here. Do you have? Which cover Do you have? The one with the lips? Yes, this is the 50th anniversary cover. It's like a lady's lips, half of her lips and nose. And, I mean, I don't know,

Ira Madison III 57:22

it feels very well, you know, what's interesting, provocative. It is provocative, you know, it gets the people going. But, um, I always think about book covers, just because, um, book covers are always kind of, you know, what, if you're an author trying to write a book that's, you know, a hit or something, right? You know, it would kind of behoove you to be in a bookstore looking at covers and just sort of, like, what publishers are putting out there to get people to read, you know, because I think of, um, you know, like, probably like when we were, when, specifically, like when we were younger, like college era, you know, like when a lot of more, um, like women's, like, younger literature was coming out, and maybe, like, like, the Gossip Girl, the Pretty Little Liars, etc, right? The covers of classic books were wild, you know, like, be like, how can you make it look like Gossip Girl? Like, how can you appeal to like, younger women wanting to read these things? And it's sort of like, I like, there's, I feel like there were so many book covers that I had, like, of things when I was finishing college, or, like, becoming an adult, like, getting my, like, bookshelf together or whatever, right? And I was like, let me find a different version of this book, because I hate this cover.

Traci Thomas 58:29

Yes, yes. I didn't even know you could find different versions of books until more recently, yeah. Oh, I could, like, order a different copy, yeah. I mean, I think this cover works. I famously nabakov did not want any women on the cover of the book. He wanted it to be like pale colors and like ocean breezes, or just the word Lolita in black on a white thing on a white background. And some covers are that there's so many different covers. I'm gonna link to a lit hub article about like, the best and worst Lolita covers, but that doesn't sell now, though, yeah, no, but I just think it's so funny that, like, basically every cover of the book is a girl on it. And he was like, please don't do that. And then they were like, Okay, thanks for your input. Fuck you. Bye. Okay,

Ira Madison III 59:13

there's I saw this one cover from like, Istanbul in like, 1959 and the woman being held on it, oh yes, like she looks 50. She looks like, it's like,

Traci Thomas 59:30

so some of them are so weird. There's the other one that's on the audiobook, the Jeremy Irons audiobook, where it's like legs and saddle shoes and like, the knees are sort of touching, which I think is, like, kind of a good one, but also, like, I don't know, I don't think you can do a good cover for this book at this point. Like, I'd love to see, I'd love to do, like, a Lolita cover contest, just like, have people submit to me

Ira Madison III 59:57

this Finland cover crazy. Like, Oh, my God, there's breasts out, yes. But also, the woman looks like the woman 29 Yeah, she's old,

Traci Thomas 1:00:06

yeah. I mean, I think that's the thing. We've really turned Lolita into an adult, I mean, and I feel like that really misses the point, I mean. And also, like, it's become just, like, a thing that they call any sort of young ish woman or teen, where they're like, like, Amy Fisher was the Long Island Lolita. And then there's like this, like, they were calling Bradley Cooper's girlfriend a Lolita. Like, I'm like, she's 22

Ira Madison III 1:00:29

you know, what's interesting too, is, you know, in his last thing, I'll say, like, on his, like, on a book, a book entitled Lolita, that he wrote, you know, he writes, you know, like, about angry readers. You know, he was, like, one person was sort of like, I think, you know, you probably should have had it, you know, like a lad be the leader, you know, seducing. Like, honestly, that still feels like, you know, like something that hasn't really been tackled, you know, too. You know,

Traci Thomas 1:00:53

the abuse of boys by, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think we barely have tackled the abuse of the abusive men towards children since this book and any real way like, I don't think it's something I think, like you said, it's still really taboo. Okay, well, we're out of here. If you want to discuss this book more with me, you need to join the stacks pack on Patreon, by going to patreon.com/the stacks. We're gonna have book club next week where we're gonna talk about this. So if you have things to yell at me about, come on down. I'm sure it's gonna be hot, and make sure you listen to the rest of today's episode to find out what our March book club pick will be. Get IRA's book. Thank you so much for doing this, Ira. Thank you for reading the controversial pick with me. So much fun. I'm

Ira Madison III 1:01:38

sorry for getting that. What do you call it? What do you call your stats? The stacks pack. The stacks back. I'm sorry for getting the stacks pack upset. You know, yeah, they're controversy. They're gonna You can blame me. The man,

Traci Thomas 1:01:51

yes, Ira, he forced this on. Okay, everyone else, thank you for listening, and we will see you in the stacks.

All right, y'all thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Ira Madison, the third for joining the podcast. Also a special thank you to Vanessa de Jesus for helping to make this conversation possible. Now it's the time you've all been waiting for. It's our announcement of our March book club pick we are going to be reading they were her property, white women as slave owners in the American South, by Stephanie e Jones Rogers, this book is a groundbreaking work of history that examines the role that white women played in American slavery, challenging long held assumptions about their complicity and power in these institutions. It's deeply researched, eye opening and sure to spark an important conversation. Just in time for Women's History Month, we will be discussing the book on Wednesday March 26 and you can tune in next Wednesday March 5 to find out who our book club guest will be. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks andjoin the stacks pack and check out my substack at tracithomas.substack.com. Make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, please, please, please leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media @thestackspod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and @thestackspod_ on Twitter, and you can check out our website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Megan Caballero
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Ep. 359 It’s Rooted in Our Past with Rebecca Nagle