Ep. 353 Monuments Are Memories with Irvin Weathersby Jr.

Written By Megan Caballero

This week, we're joined by author and educator Irvin Weathersby Jr. to discuss his new book, In Open Contempt: Confronting White Supremacy in Art and Public Space. We delve into the complicated legacy of monuments and art—what they represent, how they uphold systems of white supremacy, and what it takes to envision something new. Irvin also shares how his identity as a “teacher who writes” informs his work and perspective.

The Stacks Book Club pick for January is The Ministry of Time by Kaliane Bradley. We will discuss the book on January 29th with J Wortham returning as our guest.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 0:00

I think monuments could be a very fluid kind of concept in the sense that you have this physical structure. But I think monuments are also really more expansive in that monuments are often memories that we hold dear to ourselves. I'm not necessarily 100% going to always lean to say that this has to come down. There's some things that I feel like, yes, absolutely, this is racist. This needs to come down. But Titus kaphar, he actually mentions this. You know, frequently he says we should amend these things.

Traci Thomas 0:34

Welcome to the stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I'm thrilled to welcome to the podcast Irvin Weathersby Jr. Irvin is a writer, educator and activist whose work delves into the complexities of race history, art and social justice. His debut book is called an open contempt confronting white supremacy in art and public spaces. It's a travelog that reaches into American history and reflects the country's systemic inequality, alongside a public fight for change today, Ervin and I talk about what witnessing progress feels like, where change can and should happen, and what perspective means when exploring these challenging public works. Don't forget our January book club pick is the ministry of time by callian Bradley. Jay Wertham will be back on Wednesday, January 29 to discuss this book with me. Be sure to read along and tune in. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. And if you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, you can go to Traci Thomas dot sub stack.com to subscribe to my newsletter. And you can join our bookish community@patreon.com slash the stacks, and for a limited time through the end of January, you can still get a shout out on this very podcast when you join the stacks back. So shout out to our newest members of the stacks back. Elizabeth Buick, Betsy, Lisa Lynn, Crystal, clappich Esther, Lisa Colberg, Julie Allison, Emily narkis and on Tran thank you all so much for joining the stacks pack. And now it's time for my conversation with Irvin Weathersby Jr.

All right, today I am joined by Irvin Weathersby Jr. He is a debut author whose brand new book is called in open contempt, confronting white supremacy and art and public space. Ervin, welcome to the

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 2:29

stacks. Thank you for having me. So excited to be here.

Traci Thomas 2:32

I'm so excited to have you. I have to tell the people at home our origin story, you and I, because we met as folks are hearing this probably like 11 months ago at AWP in Kansas City, and you were like, Oh, I'm working on this book. Like, kind of like, timid. You were sort of like, I thought maybe you would like, we're working on a book, sort of like, that was going to come out in like, 30 years. Like that was sort of the vibe. You were not in like, full book promotion mode.

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 2:59

Maybe humble is the word I don't know.

Traci Thomas 3:02

Humble is fine, however. You know what, you can define it, however you want. You were in humble mode, and I was like, oh, that sounds really interesting. Like, cool. And then, like, two days later, we're hanging out, and you're like, oh yeah. Well, when my book comes out? I'm like, oh, like, what? When's your book coming out? And you were like, January 2025, and I was like, Oh my gosh. Why were you acting like this book was not done and ready to rock and roll? And then I fucking saw this cover. It is the most beautiful cover I've maybe ever seen. And so now here we are.

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 3:36

Here we are. Well, thank you first for saying that the cover, I didn't do it. Titus kaphar was so kind to Grace me to cover. But yes, thank you.

Traci Thomas 3:46

Well, it's, I mean, it's stunning. And the other part of our origin story is that for folks who listened to this show last year when Andrew boriega was on, and we talked about the word chesty, and I mentioned there was another fellow in that conversation who was like, what's just that was Irvin.

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 4:03

That was me. That was me. I was questioning Traci all along, and you

Traci Thomas 4:07

know, now it's my turn to ask the questions. So here we go in about 30 seconds or so. Can you tell folks about an open contempt? Yeah, so an

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 4:17

open contempt really is the story of America as told through New Orleans, and it specifically looks at how art really informs everything we see all around us, especially white supremacy. So in 2017 I went home to New Orleans to look at the removal of four monuments, and then the process of walking through my city looking at these monuments that were taken down, the ones that are still up. I take you around the world where I'm doing the same thing. I go through museums. I'm in the south I go to South Dakota. I really go around a bunch of different places, really engaging with art museums, public space, and really just trying to come up with some answers and even questions about how we can move forward beyond white supremacy.

Traci Thomas 4:57

Yeah. I mean, I think I. People who are hearing you say, like, this is the story of New Orleans, right? The question is, like, Well, then why did you go to South Dakota? Or, like, why did you go to Monticello? So why did you

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 5:09

Well, I think the story of America cannot be told without the Mississippi River. And the Mississippi River is the mouth of the Mississippi is right at New Orleans. And as a result, New Orleans really was the most important port, arguably more important than New York, or even in Carolina during antebellum, you know, the antebellum period. So the story of New Orleans is really entwined with the story of everything. And as you traverse up the Mississippi, you can find your way in South Dakota as well. And so there's a number of different ties into South Dakota, especially Native American kind of trauma, which is memorialized in in New Orleans in a really fantastic, really kind of bizarre way. In the center of Jackson Square, you have Andrew Jackson, who is the architect of the Trail of Tears. And so I was able to kind of tie all those connections together and really say, Okay, well, where is this place where, if I'm thinking about Native trauma, where is it that I need to go to really kind of engage with natives and native life?

Traci Thomas 6:12

Yeah, when you set out to write this book, you kind of had this idea. You're like, I'm going to start checking out these monuments, these art galleries, just like, look at how this is all documented. How big was the scope when you started versus when you ended? Like, did you start bigger and and pull it in? Or did you start with, like, two monuments? Then you were like, Oh my gosh, this is connected to that thing, and this is connected to that thing, or maybe another version. Well,

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 6:40

it's kind of a combination of all of that. And so let me take a little step back before I started this book. I was working on a book of fiction about a rebelling slave in Cuba. I bought a statue in Cuba, and I was trying to write this kind of fiction piece that this, this kind of statue would come into life. It was going nowhere. And if people were like, Yeah, we don't want this. We don't want this. 2017 happens. And I realized, like, wait a minute, I've been writing about art my whole life. And so there's moments in this book that kind of predate 2017 that were really pivotal, namely Monticello. Like I was, you know, elementary school age kid when I went to Monticello for the first time. And I vividly remember that experience, and that is also captured here. So the answer is yes and no. Like, the scope was always big, but it was also very singular, and was also really about me. So there's places that I wish I went to that that don't make the book, and there's places that really it kind of came to me when I was there, like, especially places like in Richmond, things that I saw, or even in Charlottesville, where the University of Virginia is, there's places that I didn't know I was going to see that I came upon. So the book is really kind of focused and really kind of thought out and really formulaic ways in terms of an outline, but also it gives room for for nuance and exploration and surprise, and I think that's what I want people to experience with this book. That's a real kind of kind of engagement with white supremacy that often comes as a surprise.

Traci Thomas 8:11

Yeah, where would you where do you wish you could have gone or could have made the book? I

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 8:16

wanted to go to Madeira, which is the islands off of Africa where sugar cane was first colonized, and really kind of structured as like an entity to be kind of monetized. And so that's kind of, in a way, was was a huge kind of impetus for the transatlantic slave trade when they realized, like, okay, we can kind of cultivate this, and how can we get a large group of a labor force to kind of do it, and where could we have them do it? But those islands are really where it was first, kind of cultivated, in a way, as a large kind of mass produced crop.

Traci Thomas 8:53

What to you is a monument? What defines a monument? It's a

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 8:59

really good question. I think monuments could be a very fluid kind of concept in the sense that you have this physical structure. Oftentimes it's, you know, concrete, bronze, or, you know, some other sculpting kind of thing that we often associate what, what? What, statuary, right? But I think monuments are also really more expansive in that, right? My monuments are often memories that we hold dear to ourselves, right? These are, these are relics that we possess and pass down to each other, right? And so I think monuments can be a number of things. So another really good example that strikes me, I just saw the piano lesson, which is a fascinating film that was was directed by Malcolm Washington, and starring John David Washington and others, um. And it's an August Wilson play. August Wilson is a master love, love, brother Wilson. And really the piano itself is like a monument to that family, right, right? And so all of these things can kind of be monument. So I think things that you you. You hold dear, that you want to revere, and that you want to kind of really convey a story to generations. Is what a monument is,

Traci Thomas 10:08

okay? So then to you, what makes anything worthy of like public monument status, like, Where? Where would you draw the line? Where should we be? You know, because, like, I think the question becomes, people are people? And even some of the greats did pretty fucked up things, depending on who you are. Like, there's an argument against Martin Luther King having a monument because of the way that he treated women, right? And so I'm wondering to you a person who has thought and written about this, what it how do you? How do you personally, you don't answer for anybody else, but how do you think about what is worthy of monument status and what should come down

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 10:54

well, so I honestly, truly believe that it's up to the people. It's up to the societies that that currently exist and live to decide what we should honor, right? And so it's not necessarily about me, but if I had to say, I think things that really kind of speak to the collective experience of humanity without, you know, injury, without trauma, right? And look, you brought this up, we're all flawed. The king, Martin Luther King is flawed. We're all flawed. And I think this book is not about like pointing the fingers and say you're a bad person. You're a bad person. No, people do good and bad things, right? And I'm really trying to kind of expose those things. And I'm not necessarily 100% going to always lean to say that this has to come down, right? There's some things that I feel like, yes, absolutely, this is racist. This needs to come down. But Titus kaphar, he actually mentions this, you know, frequently, he says we should amend these things, right? And a sense that, look okay, we can leave this up. These people were figures of history. But what else could we install here to provide context of who this person completely was, or at least try to kind of create some sort of complete holistic view of this person. So I would err more in that direction in terms of thinking about, you know, who are the best representatives of humanity, right? Because, yeah, and so I think that's, that's really what's about. It's not about forwarding policies or political agendas or governments. I think those are where we go wrong when we talk about monuments, it's really about humanity. Who is, who is doing the best service of humanity at that time and even now, right? Because, you know, sometimes we think about these figures and we go back to the ideas, and we recognize that they didn't age well, right? And as a result, I think we should provide context, yeah.

Traci Thomas 12:40

I think it's interesting to think about like these, like public monuments, because that's part of your book. But another part is, like some of the art that's in museums, like you go to Paris, you go to the louver, you go to Musee Traci. And I was just thinking about like, how that is almost harder to amend those things, because there is a monetary value in some way associated with them, which means, like, there's a capitalist bent to a piece of art, and all of a sudden, if you tell the louver you need to take this million dollar painting out, because x, y, z, like, that becomes a business decision in a way that, like, sort of Public Works that honor people who are bad don't have that kind of monetary connection. So I'm wondering what, what kind of solutions you see in the art world? I know because, and I guess I got on top of that, the only way to become a valuable piece of art is to be told for other people to say that it is one, right? Like, it's like, like, how all art is, I mean, like, for people to say, this book is great, then it get it gains value, right? Like, that's how art works. It has to have that word of mouth, no matter how much the marketing budget is, like, at some point people need to say that it's good. So I'm wondering, like, how you see in the art world that the remedy working the amendment, well. So

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 14:05

I think the answer is easy, is that you include more voices. You now to say, look, when we talk about the louver, when you talk about the Orsay you talk about these masters, right? You're like, Okay, that was their time. There was a moment where nothing else could be produced that necessarily reflected people that look like me, you know, in a more holistic, kind of humane way, but now we have the opportunity to kind of open the landscape, open the lands, the art world, for people to do different things, right? So you could have, you know, Titus kaphar, you have Carrie James Marshall. You have Simone Lee. You have all of these incredible people who are pushing against the history of art and what it represented then and now, what it could kind of represent for us now. And I think, you know, towards the end of the book, I tried to, kind of, you know, indicate what directions potentially we can go in and how this could potentially, not necessarily correct, but amend and allow for. Different perspectives,

Traci Thomas 15:01

yeah, I think it's interesting too with museums, because there's only so much space in a museum, and then you start to talk about, well, then what has to go

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 15:12

well? I mean, I think one of the things that I'm never going to discount is the human imagination, is our ability to figure it out, right? Yeah, and I'm not, I'm not going to say, look, I have all the answers, but I think that, yeah, there's certain things that, hey, look, I know this is incredible, I know it's worked so much, but guess what, let's just put that in the warehouse that's gotta

Traci Thomas 15:34

go. Let's just put it in the back. Like, I mean, I'm with you. I think things have to go. I'm not at all suggesting that things don't have to go, I just know that that's all of a sudden it's like, well, I'm gonna move, we gonna move this like, Monet painted that like, and I don't really know this person you're trying to bring in here. I know what the vibes are.

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 15:56

Yeah, those are the conversations that I think we continue to need to have, right? And so I think, look, they're not easy, but that's really how we're going to move forward. And these conversations, you know, when you get to the base of them, the root is white supremacy. You know the reason, the reason why that was up and why there's nothing else here, is white supremacy. So can we have that conversation?

Traci Thomas 16:15

Yeah, I mean, so on the grounds of white supremacy. I mean, obviously you can only do so much in one book. But did you ever consider broadening the scope of and including other kinds of communities, aside from black and in some small part, Native American communities? Because I was just thinking like, white supremacy has its tentacles in all the shit, right? So I'm like thinking like, what about the memorial for Pearl Harbor, like, is there weird racist shit going on there? Like, I'm just, I live in California, and so we have all of the missions which you have to go to in fourth grade, and that's not, it's not great history for people who were living on the land that is now California, but was at the time Mexico. So I'm wondering, like, did you ever think about expanding into some of those other stories, or were you focused?

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 17:12

The answer is yes, absolutely. My mind is associative in that way where I'm always trying to piece together these puzzles. And I've actually been to Hawaii. I've been to Pearl Harbor, and I did have some some interesting changes there in terms of, like, how, you know, people were treated there, how black people were treated there, how they all intersect. And, you know, we also have to agree that Hawaii is really Polynesia, right? And white supremacy now says that Hawaii is the 50th state, right? And so there's other elements of that too. So, you know, I would love to kind of write another version of this, or another version, you know, other versions and and kind of do what Kathy Park Hong talks about in my inner feelings about speaking nearby, right? In terms of, like, Look, I am not of this community, right, you know. But I still want to kind of see how I can engage the humanity in that space, see how I can kind of reflect some of the beauty and brilliance that that exists there in and how can I reflect that and associate that with my own experience and people who

Traci Thomas 18:14

look like me? Yeah, one of the things you just mentioned is that you had some interesting conversations when you were at Pearl Harbor. And one of the things I really love about the book is that you sort of invoke some of these conversations you have with other visitors to these sites. What surprised you most about talking like when you were talking with folks? You

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 18:32

know, it's really interesting. I mean, the book opens up in a surprising way. I wasn't surprised by what those folks said, but I was surprised most especially by how real and palpable native trauma is today. When I went there, I was like, Oh, y'all really don't like white people. Actively like and like, I see it, I feel it. I had some conversations that couldn't make the book, but for whatever reason, and I, you know, I trust my editor, you know, immensely. But there was a conversation I had in white in South Dakota with a couple white people at some bars. One of the, one of my processes of, kind of engaging with people, engaging with communities, and going to bars and just kind of meeting other types of people, right? And I was one of the few black faces everywhere, if I might only counted like five black people when I was there for like two weeks, and so I had one exchange where this couple was really well meaning this white couple, and they were like, Hey, we like black people. I was like, what? Okay, thank you. Um, I appreciate

Traci Thomas 19:38

that. And then I just walked up to you and said that, or were you talking to them? They were at the other end

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 19:43

of the bar, and I was just there this black man in this weird space, and I'm just trying not to be as awkward as possible and not to like, have that show so much. And they were like, hey, look, we'll buy you a beer. Like, it's okay, like we actually like to see black people. I was like, okay, you know, thanks. You know, I feel. I don't feel like a monkey at all. I don't feel like, like I'm in some sort of in cage Zoo. And then there was a another moment where I actually kind of inserted this in the conversation. I was like, Hey, look. And I asked the woman, I was like, you know, don't take this the wrong way. But you know, I feel weird. People look at me weird here. I know I'm black. Like, what is that? What is that about? You know, you know, how to, how do you how do you guys see us? How do you see natives? They were like, oh, no, no. We like black people, you know, we don't like natives. They're like, you know, they're like, Mexicans. Like, to you guys. I was like, oh, okay, cool. So, you know, thanks for talking to me. Wow, yes. He was like, Yeah, we Yeah. We like black people. We don't like natives. You know, I was like, Oh, got it so

Traci Thomas 20:45

fucked, because they only said that because there's not a lot of black people there. Yeah, yeah. I'm sure if there are a lot of black people, they would have problems with black people. So

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 20:56

yeah, there were so many moments like that, some that made the book that some didn't, but it was just really like these, these wonderful moments of just astonishment, just a real experience of being a being black in the space.

Traci Thomas 21:08

Did you tell them you were writing a book? Sometimes I

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 21:11

did, sometimes I didn't, and some people were really guarded. There was another moment in South Dakota where if you ever been to Rapid City, or if you ever been to Mount Rushmore, you have to typically fly into Rapid City. It's like the main city there. And Rapid City calls it the the the city of the presidents. And so every kind of corner in that city has a life size statue of a president. And when I was there, there was one who was notably missing. And you can kind of take he was exceptional in the sense that he was the singular one. I think he is there now, but he wasn't there. And then Grover Cleveland, not Grover. There's a guy named Barry who wasn't, who didn't, who wasn't there, and there was a lot of hoopla. And so it was like, wow. Okay, this is interesting. That's fascinating.

Traci Thomas 22:05

Okay, we're gonna take a quick break, and then I've got more questions. All right, we're back. I want to talk to you about education, because you have a really great chapter sort of right smack dab in the middle of the book, early middle. And it's about your education. It kind of starts with you in New Orleans, but eventually we get you at the University of New Orleans, and then you transfer to Morehouse. And one of the things I thought was so interesting is that you sort of, like, found your love of, I wouldn't say, of like literature, but of like discussing literature, maybe at University of New Orleans, talking about Jane Eyre, right, correct, a book I hate, but I'm so glad that you and you have this, like, passionate exchange with your teacher over it, over the course of the semester or whatever, and your teacher is basically like, Listen, you got to transfer out of this school. Like your classmates are not gonna bring you the rigorous engagement around the text that you that you need. So you leave, you go to Morehouse, and you get there and you're like, I don't need to take history. And your teachers like, Okay, you took European history, Boo Boo. I'm like, Europeans didn't start the world. So you have to take, like, more house history, which is an afro centric, it sounds like, or at least world centric. And all of that is to say you then become a teacher. You teach all sorts of different things, including art history at one point, out of nowhere, straight from the book, which I love. It's like ready made art history class. But one of the things you talk about when you went to Morehouse is that you all read a lot of the problematic faves, but you read them with this lens of the black history, the black experience, global history, global experience, which is to say that you read them in context of the world. How does that inform the work that you do now, the work that you did in this book, like, how were you thinking of contextualizing these pieces, these people, these street names, these monuments,

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 24:25

talk about it Well, you know, thank you first for that, for that kind of leading. I mean, it was a long one. I got, I get it? No, it makes a lot of sense in terms of, like, how I learned, how I became a teacher, and how I write. And so I think about that, like when people ask me who I am, I'm a teacher who writes, right? Um, and in that respect, I never, kind of forget what it means to be an educator, right? But I also studied the craft of writers and trying to figure out, like, how am I going to disseminate this? And one of the things that I. My my students all the time, is that, especially when you're writing non fiction, especially when you're writing memoir, is you really gotta be as specific as possible. You really want to kind of detail your life experience that no one else can kind of write it, no one else could kind of say these things. This is your fingerprint, right? And as a result of that, I really kind of went inward, talked about my experience, but knowing that my experience is the black experience, I also have to always bring that with me as well, right? And so that experience at Morehouse are those experiences? Rather, I had many experiences like that in Morehouse, really, kind of always allowed me to step back and be more critical of whatever I was receiving and try to find myself, me as urban weathers to be, and also me as black American, as a black American, to kind of figure that part out. Where do we fit in this story? Right? Where are we not mentioned in this story? You know? How do we figure out where we are in the periphery? So even when I think about history, I always think about dates, and I always like, in my head, I'm like, Okay, well, where am I at? Where are my ancestors at within this timeline, right? And so that's what I try to do within this book. I think sometimes I don't always work in a linear fashion, and I don't think that's how the brain works, right? But I try to figure out these, these associations, and in a way, just try to create something that that is engaging, that also educates, yeah,

Traci Thomas 26:24

okay, I have a few follow up questions. First of all, I want to say I'm currently reading the massive biography of Reagan right now, okay. And one of the things that I love about it, and that I just broadly love about reading biographies, is how really good ones do that situating of, like, where other people were, or, like, what was going on. And because Reagan was basically alive for the whole 20th century, he was born in 1911 and died in 2004 so, like, it's a good it's a long run. It's like you're getting this whole century, but through the lens of, like, this one person, and it's really fascinating. Anyways, that's just a plug. I'm really into it. I don't know why I thought I was gonna hate it, and unfortunately, I like it quite a bit. It's 32 hours on audio. It's like 890 pages. Like, it's an insane book. I did not want to like it. I wanted to listen to the first hour and be like, gotta go. Anyways, this is not about you. Sorry. That was about me, but about you. If you could teach, like if you they're gonna give you whatever you need to teach a course on a problematic, favorite person, place, book, whatever. What's the thing that you would most like to tackle with students. Oh,

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 27:43

man, that is, that's a really great question. Um, that's a really, I mean, because I have too many answers, I one of my thing is, like, it's hard for me to say one, one specific person, what popped into

Traci Thomas 27:56

your head? What? What? What's, what's the thing that kind of just first jumped at you. I'm sure there's lots of answers. Well,

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 28:02

the easy answer right now is, is what's happening in my household? My son is five years old, and he is neurodiverse. And one of the manifestations of His neurodiversity is that he can read like a fourth, fifth grade level. And so he is like plowing through books. And one of his fixations right now, is the presidents

Traci Thomas 28:23

and so to read this Reagan biography,

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 28:27

I was come back. I was going to come back to the Reagan so he can, like, list all the presidents by name in order. He knows, like, when the Who's the first to drive in a car. So, so I will say, you know, the thing that I would really try to do is really try to educate him in ways that, that he can really see who these people are in more nuanced ways, one of which is, like, Abraham Lincoln, right? He is like 100% like he was great. And it's like, Yeah, but there's other things here too, like, there's, but he has a kid, five, my kids five, um, and so, but he's, like, clear on Andrew Jackson. He was, like, he made the natives leave. He's bad. He's bad. And so it's kind of like he has some of this understanding. But really trying to, I would, I would really, if, if I can approach this is really try to think about, how do we talk about some of these major figures in history, and how do we tell them? How do we, you know, include that to children, or convey that to children? But another easy, big answer is really trying to convey racism to a child.

Traci Thomas 29:35

That's easy,

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 29:38

easy for me to say that's what I would want to do. I see right? Because I think we're approaching that, that space is like, you know, there's there's moments. He's reading about Martin Luther King. He was like, Martin Luther King was bad because he was fighting, and he was, we don't fight. I was like, Okay, well, fight means this, and like, this is what he was fighting for. He was fighting for freedom. He was fighting for liberation. And now. Trying to figure out, well, and he's going to ask again, like, Well, wait, why does he need to fight? Like, what was he really fighting for? And so trying to really start to kind of engage that. And so my life's work, honestly, I hope, is really to try to dismantle, you know, some of these ideas of white supremacy and racism that we could kind of, you know, move beyond where we currently are, and it's, it's, it's a challenge, but, like, I don't, yeah, I don't know any other way to live. Like, I would like to be as free as possible in my lifetime. You know, if I, if that's okay, you know,

Traci Thomas 30:34

that's great. That's fine. I'm fine with that. You might have to ask the manager, but for me, it's great.

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 30:39

It's great. You know, can I, can I push? Yeah, like, you know, I get, my ancestors had to deal with certain things, but we also have to deal with certain things and and, How can I not, you know, wait on that slow movement of justice and all of these kind of weird kind of sayings that people have, like, oh, it takes the time to kind of get to progress. It's like I only got one life, you know, and I want to live it as as completely as possible. So

Traci Thomas 31:08

that was a really big answer, though, you know, I'm going to push you and ask you to pick one person, place, book, movie, one thing.

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 31:20

Okay, okay, you can do it. I can. I can, you know, I'm going to give you an answer, and I'm not going to love it, because I know that there's going to be other ones that that, that one book, one place, you know what? If I had to pick a place I currently live in New York, right? Yeah, you know, I would, I would focus. This is still not a great answer. I still don't already tell

Traci Thomas 31:49

you're too big. I literally can see in your face. The answer is, too bad. Do you want to hear mine? I'll give you an example mine. If I could have the time and resources to teach one class about one problematic, favorite kind of thing I would do a course on Gone With the Wind. I would do the movie. I would do the book. I would do the history of when the book came out, versus when the movie came out, versus when the book is set, and how, like, the 1930s of the film informed this, like, post Depression era performance of, you know, the South rising again, that's what I would do.

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 32:24

I think that's a great one. And I think people have doing that one. And I think that's, that's a really, really incredible one. You know what? What I would, where I would do. And this is, might be, some people may not like this answer, some people that look like me. One thing that really annoys me, and this is really the propensity that we have for the N word. And I really feel like we're going to look back on this period and be like, You know what? We could have let that go a little bit earlier? Right? Language evolves, right? We've been called many, many things. And I get it like it's this idea of this installation, of our raft sales and pushing other people out. But I don't get the idea of like, how we respond to it when someone else says it. It's almost like we are just reactionary, like dogs or like animals, like, Oh, this is all it takes for you, for me to get upset. And it's like, but I the reason I say that is because I think of my ancestors. I think of my great grandmother, Mama, Nancy, and the stuff that she have to deal with? And I think about my parents being especially my father and my uncles, like people spitting in their faces, like, and because of this and like, it's not a word that was in my household. It's not a word that I'm not going to be mad at someone for using. But it still feels weird to me every time I hear it's like, why are we doing this? It seems real ridiculous. And look, I get it. Oprah, you know, has a similar feeling. Jay Z doesn't I know a lot of people are going to be like, This dude is like, an elitist and like, okay, cool, fine. You call me what you want, but I just don't like it. That's

Traci Thomas 33:53

a this is a good I would take that course. I would take that course. Okay, I'm going to come off that now, because you did officially answer the question. It took us a while, but we got there. I want to talk to you, though about audience. There is a point in the book, I believe it's at the end of that education chapter, where you really address the audience directly. I think it's the only time you really like use that convention. But I'm curious, who you were thinking of was the you in this book, who you're writing to, and if that shifted at all for you, and just, I guess, audience question mark, all right, so

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 34:33

yeah, I'm gonna give you, like a real cheesy answer first, and then I'm gonna tell you, like the whole the publishing answer.

Traci Thomas 34:41

Okay, okay.

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 34:43

I think the cheesy answer, and this is really true. Honestly, when I get down to write, I'm always trying to be in conversation with my grandmother, and she is the person who the book is dedicated to, and she is the person who's always told me, like, at the end of the day, I hear her voice telling me, look, just say a plain. And say it right. Just get it right. And I'm like, I'm trying to write things that she would enjoy, right? This

Traci Thomas 35:06

is the grandmother who wrote you the story of what happened on the roof, correct? Okay, yeah, say more. That's not a spoiler, but it that's this grandmother. Okay, yes, yes.

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 35:16

And so I'm always hearing her voice. I'm always trying to channel her voice I'm always trying to write, and in the way in which she kind of told me and taught me, right? So that's just, that's the easy, cheesy answer, but it's true that that's where I start. Now, when I where I start and where I go is different. Now this book, especially, I think, is really for anyone who's committed to racial justice. I truly believe that is the case, but I think it's also for college students. I think it's for high school students. School students I was really trying to but I also think it's for Americans. I think it's for everyone who lives in this country who is unaware of the history. Is for all those people who are trying to find answers beyond these banned books, right? So I think it's really for every person now who is committed to trying to have a better future. And so whatever that looks like, whether you white, black, Asian or other, if you want to have a better a better country, a better understanding, a better way of of engaging with each other, I think this book is for you. And so that's who I was writing into. I was writing it to those people. I also was writing to black people, especially because I wanted to kind of make sure that that, hey, look, this is, this is this is one of us speaking to us and also speaking for us on behalf of this country.

Traci Thomas 36:36

Okay, I'm going to ask you to do a little bit of prognosticating. What do you think happens now, as we are on the eve of a second Trump presidency when it comes to specifically monuments, I think less the art itself, because I think there is some, I mean, I hope curation that happens at a lot of these art institutions that might work outside of government oversight, I guess. But like, what do you see? Do you have any sense of what this might mean? Because the reason I'm asking it this way, I guess, is because, like in the book where we start in New Orleans, you there's a part where you talk about a whole database of street names and monuments and things that maybe might be getting changed, and what the options are and what it means and what it looks like, and that, to me, was, first of all, very surprising, but that's government stuff. And I'm just wondering, like, does it get worse? Does it get better? Does it say the same? Do we have these? Do you think we're gonna have these fights in the streets again over Lee and Jackson, or like, what do you see? What do you see? You're the expert.

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 38:00

Well, you know, I think we're all experts, but of living, right? And you wrote

Traci Thomas 38:05

the book, I did the book on it. Get a little chesty. Okay,

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 38:11

I am. But I also want this book is, also want to empower everyone to be like, Look, you are the expert as well. You don't have to have taught a class, you don't have to have gone to a bunch of schools to engage with the world around you, right? So I also want that for people. But if I had to say I actually want conflict, I think that we need to embrace it. Conflict is where is the fulcrum of change, right? You know. So I hope that after that feeling of in November, when when, when the election wasn't wasn't won, you know, that feeling was really defeating. I think some people are still in that space, right? But I hope that this book, I hope that other books like it, really kind of invigorate us and be like, Okay, let's get back to work. We got to keep fighting. And I want conflict. I want this book to be banned. I want that platform. I want people to be able to say, okay, don't read this book, so I can pass it out freely. And yeah, I hope that there is more conflict. I think there's gonna be way more chaos. I think that's obvious, right? And with that chaos, I think there's gonna be moments where we can inject change and correctives and push forward. Look, there's a the the Mellon Foundation. I There's, there's a moment in the book where I talk about the Mellon Foundation has, has created this incredible fund to fund these public monuments project. And this is, like, the biggest source that they've ever this is the biggest funding source that they've ever done right for for this. So there's a lot of money, a lot of push behind these things. So I just hope that that artists are going to get more runway to kind of express themselves. I hope that museums are going to continue to open up. I hope that the price of art goes down. I hope that billionaires do not stop, you know, keep, you know, using the. As tax shelters, yeah. And I hope beyond, beyond it all, is that we can kind of continue to fight white supremacy. Is this book is not just about art, really is about racial justice. And so I want to keep that fight up. And so I hope that's the case.

Traci Thomas 40:15

So on that same sort of grounds, I think the book, early in the book, you talk about, like the sort of, like the idea of progress, yeah. And what it means that a statue of someone, some some slave, I mean, white person, some Confederate General, whoever, XYZ fill in the blank, might come down and in the same week, month day, a black person could be killed in the streets. And so there's not really a question. I just sort of want you maybe to tell me what you make of this idea of progress.

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 40:59

Look, it's an incredible like mind, to be honest, because, like, we have, we have Juneteenth, right, but we still celebrate Columbus Day, right? And so it's like, how, how are those things? How do we hold those two things at the same time, right? How do we celebrate MLK Day and, like, he's on the mall, but then we still have Mount Rushmore and all of these other kind of racist and white supremacists, and so I think it's really an incredible thing that we have to do to figure out, like, how do we get to a space where we we are not just kind of believing lies or and it's a really strange thing to really question a liar. We're like, do you really believe this, or is this really, like, just something that you're trying to use as motivation to control people, right? Um, and so, yeah, I don't, I don't have that answer. I think progress is happening, right? Um, right. Progress is, you can see it. But as I also mentioned in the book, the wealth gap is still the wealth gap. Yeah, right. And so, you know, we still have these failed states in West Africa and Haiti, you know, that are consequences of the transatlantic slave trade. Like these are still actively ongoing disasters, right? So, like, how do we kind of really address those things? But what, while not just kind of using Juneteenth as some sort of virtual signal, right? There was a moment last, well, this year, actually, where I went to the beach with my family on Juneteenth. And it was, it was cool, it was good. It was great. But there were, like, these. It was just, we're surrounded by white people, and they're like, Wow. Like, Hmm, that's interesting. Like, what is this? What is this is holiday about, like, is this going to evolve into something else? Is should it evolve into something else? The answer is yes, that, like, I truly am going to fight for reparations to the day I die, right? Um, and it's like, is there some sort of repair that can be done, versus giving us a day off and saying you can go to the beach, right? You know, I still don't know how I feel, how it feels. Well, I had this feeling when a white person wished me happy Juneteenth, and it's like, what it Thank you. Thank you, I guess. And sure, yes, yeah. So that's what progress feels like. I think it's still kind of tenuous,

Traci Thomas 43:25

and progress feels like a white person wishing you happy team, and it's like, Oh

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 43:29

yeah, yeah, we have a holiday to you, yeah, but we still the wealth that you have and all of that stuff that you continue to flaunt, and winning elections and being a billionaire is really a result of my ancestors free labor, like I still know that to be true.

Traci Thomas 43:47

And thank you. Thank you for wishing me happy. June teeth. Yeah, I do want to ask you about another book that comes up in your book, but I think also probably has come up a lot in your process with this, which is how the word is passed by Clint Smith, fellow son of New Orleans, fellow writer of history of space, of white supremacy, of how we hold space for these things. How were you thinking about that book as you were working on this? Had you read it? Did it help you? Did it? Did you have to, like, hide it in a locker so that it didn't influence you at all. Like, I think the books are different when you read them, but I think when you hear about them, they do sound really similar. And I'm just curious, like, for you, how that how that book sort of played out in your process.

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 44:35

All right, cool, if I could be honest. Let me be honest. Yeah, so I absolutely read it. And I absolutely thought that, okay, this is it. I don't have a book anymore. This guy wrote my book like, I want to shoot this guy. I don't want anyone to read this book. What is he doing? And so that was my initial thought. I was in the I was in the throes of, like, early drafts at the time, and I sense of. Evolve to realize that this was an incredible book, that he really was like priming the pump for us all right. And so it wasn't just his book. It was Imani Perry south to America that

Traci Thomas 45:12

was the other one that I think is also like, sort of in conversation with your book in a different I feel like if how the word has passed and South America had a baby, it would be your book. Okay? I like that, like I feel like they're doing similar things on different ends, because her book feels more like cultural and his feels more like historical, physical places, and your book sort of does both of those things in different ways.

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 45:40

I love that. Thank you, Traci, I think you're right. I was happy to I was in conversation, absolutely, with those books, even ta nehisi COVID, his new book, the message, I think there's a there's a moment right now, which I think is awesome, is that that that black folks are starting to kind of look at the world around them and really travel and see and really try to interpret our experience in connection and to the to the larger world, right? And I think that's what my book is doing. And after I talked to my agent, after talk to my editor, they were like, No, this is actually a really great thing. Like this is, this is like, he is opening a lane for people to be interested in what you have to say. And my book, as you say, is actually different from all of those, right? Yeah, it's, it's, my book is focused on art, is some history, but it's also really more like a memoir, yeah, more more, yeah, more than than theirs. It, you know, is and and more than ta nehisi, which is like moments repertoire type of kind of engagement. And so I think there's space for us all. And I would love to kind of be in conversation with them all, and to kind of give us all of this language, right? The more books we have like this, the more we get the language of revolution, yeah.

Traci Thomas 46:57

I mean, I certainly think there's space for all of you, since I've read all four of those books now, and that kind of book I just absolutely love. I did. I did have a little chuckle though. When you were at, I don't know if this is a spoiler, but you were at Monticello, and the people you were talking to, you're like, what brought you here? And they were like, Oh, we've read how the word is fast. Other people were like, us too, it's our book club.

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 47:19

And was like, okay, cool. Like, I Clints out here? Like, yes, that is Clint.

Traci Thomas 47:24

Clint power. I guess we're almost out of time, but there's a few things I have to ask you about. One is the title. Where did it come from? In open contempt? How did you pick it? Was it always the title? Did you have another one called, like, black man, white monuments or something?

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 47:42

I love that I did. It wasn't black man, white money. It wasn't that I open contempt. And open contempt was there for a while and and this honestly goes back to to my time at Morehouse, um, one of the really gifts of being at Morehouse, at a HBCU especially, but I could talk about my experience at Morehouse is that the text I was reading in, like African American history, I had the fortunate experience of reading virtually every slave narrative, and so I have them all, like catalog in my head. And like one thing, even if I went back to answer that question, I would probably teach a I would probably teach a course on the power of Frederick Douglass and just how he's such a like a outsized influence on the shape of America. I

Traci Thomas 48:30

hate to tell you this, but Clint Smith also loves Frederick Douglas you two are twins. I

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 48:37

love Clint. We were raised on the same water.

Traci Thomas 48:41

I love Clint. I love you. It's all I just think it's so funny, like your brains are, like, related or something.

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 48:47

I you know, we're two smart guys from New Orleans, right? It'd be worse people

Traci Thomas 48:50

to have brains related to, right? Yeah. Anyway, sorry, go ahead, yeah. But Frederick

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 48:55

Douglass is this incredible icon, to the point that, you know, when he was publishing his books, were out, selling everything. He was the national best seller, right? And so, you know, when I think about all of you know, the father or the the origin stories of black letters in America, I think about Frederick Douglass. And so, you know, as I was going through, thinking about trying to how to, how to honor him, I was reading through some of his, his autobiographies, and I came across this, came across this passage that I thought really crystallized what I would kind of create for this book, right? So there's a moment in in one of his autobiographies where he is describing what it felt like to recognize that he was a slave, to hit the moment when he was like, Wait a second. Like, they're about to sell me, like, I'm about to be on an auction block, like, like, with animals and other cattle and other like, Wait a minute. And he was very young, but it was that surreal moment of understanding where he uses the phrase in open contempt, how we reduced to beast. It held in open contempt of our. Humanity, and that is the feeling that I want this book to convey. I want us to kind of open our eyes and really become aware of how open this hatred is for us has been and seems to continue to be that way. And so we're going to push forward. We're going to keep pushing, you know, beyond that hatred, okay,

Traci Thomas 50:21

we call this a hard shift around here. How did you write the book? Snacks and beverages. Where were you how many hours a day, on your phone, on a computer, watching TV in silence? Tell me about it. All

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 50:36

right, so I had a bad idea to have two kids while writing this book. Always a

Traci Thomas 50:41

bad idea to have this unfortunately, there's never a good time, never a good time.

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 50:45

So I had two kids, and that was really, really challenging. So that mean, that meant I stayed up late. I got up early. That was kind of the bulk of kind of writing this book. But I will say that I write everything long hand, like I don't like computers. Don't my brain is not going to function that way. I'm a book notepad, loose leaf, um, I'm using notebooks, and I usually use a mold skin, bound mold skin. I usually use a gel pen. That's one of my favorites, that it kind of flows a little bit easier. And I write all the time, whenever I can't, right? And so I don't believe. I'm not gonna say I don't believe, but the way my life is structured is that I gotta take time wherever I can get it. Okay, right? So that's in the morning, that's late at night. I was also teaching, um, so really I would, I would just try to figure out, Okay, where did I get an hour, where I get two, where I get three? Um, nothing romanticized about it. You just kind of get into it. And this is one thing that I do, though, I do outline in a way that I know. Every day I'm showing up to write this part, I'm writing this scene, or I'm researching this topic, or I'm researching this this, you know, work of art, and so that I know that, okay, I'm finished with that section, I can go to the next thing. And so that helps me kind of compartmentalize my writing. I'm focusing on this. That's what I'm doing. That's time to get there. I had, you know, whether it depends on how you, how you how you perceive it, how other people perceive it, but my editor, the editor who acquired my book, became an agent, and then I got another editor, so that also kind of prolonged the process in a beautiful way. So, yeah, I was actually fortunate for that to happen, like my acquiring agent or editor is a friend now, and my editor, he just happened to win the Pulitzer Prize, you know, right before you know, he got to my book, I was like, Okay, I guess I landed in decent hands. What book did he win the Pulitzer for? He won the Pulitzer for his name is George Floyd. Oh, my a book

Traci Thomas 52:48

that. The moment that I read it, I said, this book will win the Pulitzer. So I believe I had that. Congratulations to your editor, and it's a great book, and it's great book, but you didn't answer snacks and beverages. Oh,

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 53:02

snacks and beverages. I usually

Traci Thomas 53:05

drink tea. What kind of tea? How do you

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 53:09

I usually do? I'll do at night, I would do like a, like a lavender type of thing, something really fragrant. Yeah, something fragrant. In the morning, I'm definitely going to get my coffee snacks. You know, I don't do snacks too much, actually, when I'm in the throes of writing, when I'm into it, like, really, I often forget to eat. I'm so consumed. Um, yeah, where it's just like, I'm really manic, and it's like, Oh, damn, I haven't eaten today. And my wife is like, what's wrong with you? It's like, I don't know. Like, I I'm writing. I'm sorry, but I will say music. I use music a lot. I use incense a lot. I like to kind of create this kind of expansive type of experience, so my brain could kind of kind of go where it needs to go. And the music that I listen to often is like jazz or just music without lyrics. Christian Scott.

Traci Thomas 54:01

Was like, you want to say Christian rock? I was like, that has lyrics also.

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 54:06

Christian Scott is, is probably the person I listen to the most. He's he's an incredible horn player from New Orleans, and he just has this really incredible fusion of sound, of jazz, of hip hop. But really, he doesn't really like to call, you know, music jazz, or what he does jazz, but, yeah, so, I mean, it just really, it brought me home in a way. I used to play the trumpet, like New Orleans is a very musical city. Music does it activates me in so many ways. Like I hear brass band, like, you know, a couple blocks away, I'm gonna get goose bumps, like, it just, it just really kind of activates me and just reminds me of home and po boys and just my family. I

Traci Thomas 54:47

love it. I'm gonna let you off the hook without having a snack, though I am making an asterisk next to your name that says person, personal enemy. I can lie to you. No, it's I don't. I don't want it. Actually, it's fine. Another famous person who doesn't really snack on the show, except for clementines, is Clint Smith, you guessed it, like you two are from fucking New Orleans, and you don't eat anything. What a nightmare for the rest of us, like the great, one of the great food cities in the world, and you two are eating clementines and air. Oh, what a nightmare. Okay, we already talked about the books that are in conversation with with this one. So I have just one more question for you, which is, if you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who would you want it to be? I

Irvin Weathersby Jr. 55:33

would love to hear what Jimmy Baldwin had to say about what I'm doing, because, I mean, I more than, more than anything you know of, not just a syntax, not just like you know, the scope and the structure of of his words and paragraphs, but what I really am forever indebted to is, like his courage, um, and like to say what needs to be said on the page, to not to not be afraid to do what needs to be done like I truly want to embody that in all things. And I hope that he sees that that I learned from him well. So

Traci Thomas 56:10

I love that. All right, folks, this is Ervin Weathersby Jr. His book is called in open contempt. It is out in the world. Now, as you're listening to this, Ervin, do you do the audiobook? I do. I did it. Yeah, it was incredible. I didn't listen to it. I haven't listened to I read it off the page, but because we're recording this before the book came out. But folks, if you're audiobook people check it out. Irvin's gonna read it to you, or you can read it off the page and be like me. We can be twins. Irvin, thank you so much for being here. This was wonderful. Thank you, Traci. Appreciate you and everyone else. We will see you in the stacks.

All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening. And thank you again to Irvin Weathersby Jr for joining the show, and thank you to julza Negron for helping to make this conversation possible. Don't forget the stacks. Book club pick for January is The Ministry of Time by Kaliane Bradley and Jay Wortham. Will be back to discuss this book with all of us on Wednesday, January 29. if you love this podcast, you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join the stacks pack and check out my substack at tracithomas.substack.com. Make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, please, please, please leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media @thestackspod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and @thestackspod_ on Twitter, and you can check out our website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

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Ep. 352 No Hierarchy of Legitimacy with J Wortham