Ep. 314 Being Chesty with Andrew Boryga

Written By Cherie Marquez
Ep. 314 Being Chesty with Andrew Boryga

First-time novelist and award-winning writer Andrew Boryga talks about his new book Victim, a satirical take on diversity initiatives, self-promotion and the art of the hustle. Andrew reveals how he thought about audience while composing the book, and discusses the difference between attention and privilege.

The Stacks Book Club selection for April is The January Children by Safia Elhillo. We will discuss the book on April 24th with Hala Alyan.

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08
Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I’m your host Traci Thomas and today we are joined by Andrew Boryga. He’s an author and editor originally hailing from the Bronx, his debut novel Victim tells the story of a born hustler Javier Perez who fabricates a dramatic past to exploit for clout, college admissions and a flourishing writing career. Andrew and I talk today about how he thinks about his own audience how his experiences as a writer factored into this book and all about reading his own Goodreads reviews. Don’t forget the stocks book club pick for April is The January Children by Safia Elhillo, which we will discuss on Wednesday, April 24th with Hala Alyan. It is now time for my conversation with Andrew Boryga.

Right, everybody, I’m very excited. I’ve got a debut author with me today. One of my most anticipated books of the year. The book is victim, the author is Andrew Boryga. Andrew, welcome to the stacks.

Andrew Boryga 2:39
Thank you so much for having me.

Traci Thomas 2:40
I’m so excited before we talk about the book. I have to out you as the person who tried to bring me down and failed. I met Andrew in Kansas City when I was at this writer’s conference thing that I had no business being at. And I was talking to him about sports because he’s a baseball fan, which we’ll get to. And I use one of my favorite terms, which is I called someone chesty, like five times. And after I did it like the fifth time and she was like, What is chesty mean? And I was like, What do you mean, what is chest? And he was like, I’ve never heard that before. I was like, it’s a word that you use to describe people who are like chesty, who are brash and in your face as well. So I was like, Draymond Green is chesty. You know, Richard Sherman is chesty. And he and this other guy were with were like, never heard it made it up. He made it up. And so then I took it to Instagram, and then someone on Instagram, found a dictionary definition. And the number one dictionary definition is a brash person. Number two is a big-busted person. So Andrew, you tried it with me. And you lost? Thank you for listening to The Stacks.

Andrew Boryga 3:46
Hey, I learned something. I saw that definition. I was like, okay, you know, I assumed it was like a California thing. I had never heard that before.

Traci Thomas 3:52
It’s so funny, because a lot. I did like the whole poll on Instagram, and a lot of people had never heard it. They’re like, Oh, I just, you know, I kind of assumed what you meant when you said it, whatever. And so I was actually shocked that the dictionary definition was what I had been saying, because I was like, Oh, I must have made this up somewhere along the way. But speaking of chesty people, your book stars, one of the Cestius character, yes. Why don’t you tell folks in 30 seconds or so about Victim?

Andrew Boryga 4:18
Yes. So, Javier Perez, the main character in Victim, definitely chesty. He’s basically somebody who really wants to be a writer, a famous writer, successful writer, whatever that means to him. And he sort of realizes early on in high school, basically, that if he writes about his adversity, his background is trauma. And if he even stretches the truth a little bit, he will kind of get to where he wants to be even faster. And so he does that. until things get a little bit out of hand, and he’s sort of come to realization about like, how he’s gone too far. But yeah, there’s a lot of interests, interesting stuff that happens in between them.

Traci Thomas 4:57
Yeah, and we won’t spoil things for ya. So all you need to know chesty right are very interesting. Maybe? What’s funny because it starts sort of like with him applying for college. Yeah. And I think that’s probably where it starts for a lot of people about like, Oh, this is a way that I can-

Andrew Boryga 5:16
Like you’re interested in my background?

Traci Thomas 5:18
Yeah. Oh, you’re interested in this? Because like, your parents are never interested. Your parents are like, I lived it, bitch. Yeah. Oh, college adviser, you want me to talk about my life? Okay. Exactly. I want to know where you got the idea for the book.

Andrew Boryga 5:32
Yeah. So it’s something that developed over a long period of time, to be honest. He started with this friendship story. So Gio is another character novel, who’s like Bobby’s best friend, he goes away to prison, comes out and like reuniting, obviously, I’m doing his whole thing. But I would say it, it started around like 2020 When I was like, had been in journalism for a long period of time. And watching, like the media industry, and sort of, like the demand that I was seeing for, like, stories based on trauma, or like, adversity, poverty, and not just like, you know, those stories are valid, right? They’re important, but like, it was the only stories that I was sort of editors really interested in me writing after a while, and I was just like, What the fuck? And so like, you know, I wanted to basically talk about this, like, nationwide obsession, it was it was seeming with, like, adversity, trauma, you know, but like, how, even though there are some good things to that, and it’s, like, important to write about that and talk about it. I felt like, a lot of it was seemingly like shallow, you know, and, and I was, like, wanted to find a way to write about it through a character who had agency who was like making decisions, even though they’re bad ones. And so I’ve just landed on this idea of like, even though I personally in my real life, I was, like, started turning that turned down things and like, back away from opportunities, because I was just like, This is getting weird. Yeah, I was like, what if somebody just kind of ran with it? You know, what if somebody was like, Nah, that’s what the market wants, I’m gonna give them exactly what they want. Kind of like a hustler. Kind of like, you know, playing to the game. And, and when I landed on that, it just, it was something that felt really fun. And it allowed me to, like explore a lot of like, complicated questions and, you know, think things that I didn’t really have the answer to, but just to, like, explore it through fiction, and through this character, who was like, really interesting. And, again, making not great decisions, but like, really believing in what he was doing and trying to like, understand that.

Traci Thomas 7:35
Okay. This is a really specific question. And we’re not spoiling the book and you are not my name. This is a yes or no question. Okay. Is Rebecca a real person?

Andrew Boryga 7:43
She is based on like, a few.

Traci Thomas 7:46
Okay, yeah, people when you read the book, and you get to that part, you’ll know, but it hasn’t had to be asked. Um, I want to talk about audience. Yeah, who were you thinking of as your audience when you were writing the book? And now that the book has been in the world for a little bit? Is that who’s reading the book?

Andrew Boryga 8:04
That’s great question. My audience. I mean, I was trying to address like, a wide range of people, I would think, you know, I mean, first and foremost, I was writing it for myself really to, like, understand it myself. And like, where do I fall on some of these things, but also, for writers, other writers or friends of mine that I know who were like, writers of color, we’re kind of going through this and like, we secretly talk about, especially if they are like, staff writers and stuff, or like in the media, often that we talk about these things, for the editors who, like, maybe do some of this stuff, you know, and a lot of them I think are like well intentioned, too, and don’t really realize like, how it comes off. And then also, I think, like, just anybody who’s paying attention to the media, you know, in particular, I mean, this is like, this is not like yellow face, like the publishing well as much. I’m not as familiar with that. But just like, in the media, I feel like, we’ve been having these conversations, and particularly, like, especially when there’s someone who takes advantage of this stuff, like, you know, Rachel Dolezal, or like Jussie Smollett.

Traci Thomas 9:09
Chesty icon, right?

Andrew Boryga 9:12
Yeah. The knowledge that was like a another thing that came up. So these things were like, in the ether. And so I don’t know, like, I just felt like, it was like a topic that people were thinking about and talking about on both sides of the aisle. And it’s like, I wanted to write something that was like getting it up all that in a way, but not necessarily come down with like a position or like making like a speech or like an argument necessarily, you know what I mean?

Traci Thomas 9:37
Right. Do you feel like those people are the people who you’ve heard from so far who have read the book?

Andrew Boryga 9:42
Um, you know, it’s been interesting. I’ve heard from a lot of different people, like I’ve heard from people who are just like, this is Bronx book is set in the Bronx, so they just like, this is like a Bronx book and they’re not even really engaging necessarily with the larger themes. There’s just like, happy that it’s like a Bronx book. I’ve heard with like, people of color who like finally someone’s writing about this. I’ve heard from like, white folks who are interested in it or like, not necessarily, maybe like opening their eyes to some of them or made me uncomfortable. You know, like, it’s interesting. It’s been an interesting response. Like, I feel like, there’s like, Yes, finally, this is I totally get this or it’s like, this made me uncomfortable, but like, I kind of liked it, or I don’t know what I’m supposed to think about it. And I take all of it, honestly, because I was, you know, like I said, I wasn’t necessarily setting out to like, make an argument, you know, and I personally like fiction that makes you a little bit uncomfortable. So like, when I hear that I’m like, alright, that’s, that’s great for me.

Traci Thomas 10:39
Yeah. So one of the questions that came to me, like in reading the book was like this idea about privilege, right? Yeah. Because Hobbes sort of, you know, talks about, like, how he gets like privilege from writing these stories. But do you think that there’s a difference between privilege and attention?

Andrew Boryga 10:59
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, I think would hobby he’s very mistaken about like, what attention, like the significance of it, you know, and that’s something I’m obsessed with.

Traci Thomas 11:10
He gets obsessed with like, the attention and like clicks, and the response on social media and the follows, so he becomes like, really like Pavlov’s dog around when he publishes and then like, the response from the internet.

Andrew Boryga 11:25
Yeah, and that’s, that’s, that’s something that I felt was really important to tease out, you know, because I think we’re in this world where, you know, we’re all kind of like, brands, at this point, everyone has, like, a page, you know, and everyone’s like, posting and like, you can get all your data. You know, you can see it happening in real time. And I was trying to talk about how, or like, get at, you can sometimes mistake these clicks, or follows or likes or whatever, for, like, something real and tangible. You know, when it’s often a very passive thing that’s happening, you know, like, like, you the receiver of it. It’s like, Oh, my God, I’m getting all this love. But on the other side, it’s just like somebody’s like, you know, clicking or whatever. Like, they maybe they didn’t read what you wrote. I mean, yeah, I used to post that on that. Yeah, no. So people I know, people do it. Like I was a journalist, I would post this long, like investigative piece. And then people would be like, Oh, my God, this was terrible, whatever, whatever. Can’t believe this. And then I looked at the stats, and it’s like, four people clicked it, you know, but like, a lot of people were saying, like, you didn’t even read it.

Traci Thomas 12:28
The headline everything. Yeah, like me support this person. I’m not gonna read it.

Andrew Boryga 12:33
Yeah, which is cool. But it’s like, when you get drunk off of that can lead us to some pretty bad places.

Traci Thomas 12:40
Yeah. I mean, this is a tricky question, because I haven’t I can’t figure out the exact word. So forgive me if it’s a little delicate. But I want to know what you were working on with Hobbes voice as our narrator because the book is written in the style of a memoir. Yeah. So how were you? I guess, thinking about his writing as different from like, your own writing. Because like you, when you are the author, and you write as someone else you are taking on the role of being that person, you’re creating the work, but like, hobby is clearly different from you. So how are you taking that on? Like, how were you thinking about what he his opinion versus your opinion?

Andrew Boryga 13:20
Yeah so I wrote it in this, like, fake memoir style. And that was something I landed on, sort of later on in the process. And I that was great, because it allowed me to, like, get into his mind and almost right from like, this defensive standpoint, like, right, basically, get into his mind, where he’s like, anticipating some of the critiques he’s gonna get, or like, the way people are going to approach the novel, or, you know, the memoir, so to speak, right? Which is cool, because it allowed me to, like, get deeper into his voice into his psyche. And that’s something else. I’m like, teasing out here. It’s like, it’s really like a character study of this guy. And it’s like, he’s trying to explain to you how I got to where I got to, which is like, this messy place at the end. And so it’s up to you to like, believe him? Or like, are you gonna, you know, like, you have to sort out the reader, like, do I believe this guy? Is he just trying to get over me on on me again, what’s happening here, and it’s like, it creates this like, other layer of ambiguity, which I personally like to have, and which, you know, again, when I hear from readers who are like this challenge me or this, like, I almost wanted to put it down at some points, but then I kept going, and, and I was glad I did. I love to hear that because I’m like, I got you like, right there. And then you kept going. And it’s like, it was it was worthwhile for you to do that. And I don’t know, to me, I feel like that’s the kind of read that people will think about when they finish instead of something where it’s like, zipped through and it’s like, that was great. And you just move on.

Traci Thomas 14:48
You know, it’s interesting, because I feel like one of the things we know about Javi that he’s at least what he’s told us is that he’s maybe not a good writer. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I was thinking a lot about that. As I’m reading it, I’m like, are we good? Like, is this memoir him? Is he improved? Or yeah, this like, I don’t know, it’s just really interesting. That’s sort of what I was like, kind of getting out with that question is like, yeah. Because the whole book, everyone’s like, go deeper, like, try harder. Yeah. Yeah. So like, I don’t know, how were you thinking about the memoir in relationship to that sort of stuff.

Andrew Boryga 15:26
So, so it’s kind of at the end, kind of trying to get it a little bit, but he’s, you know, early on, he wants all these writing opportunities, or the success where he doesn’t even want the opportunity to speak I think he just wants like, a blue checkmark and like a lot of followers and to be seen as a successful person.

Traci Thomas 15:42
Well, what’s funny is in the beginning, he wants to be an author because he wants to be rich and I’m like already Javi’s a moron.

Andrew Boryga 15:50
Right, right. Right. That’s like, you know, yeah, so there’s a lot at stake there. But, you know, he comes from this, like, you know, background where you don’t, there’s not a lot of writers around him, he has this dad’s drug dealer, he’s grown up with, like, cash lying around. So he’s right, you understand, he hears, like, oh, you can get $100,000 advance and in his mind, it’s like, I’m gonna get like stacks of cash in a bag or something. Right. Right. Right. But anyway, he, you know, I think as he’s getting these opportunities, he actually really starts to get a little frustrated, I think and then he kind of wants to write this like, quote, unquote, real thing or something more authentic to him. But he’s both afraid of doing that. And also afraid that it won’t be as well received as like the the nicely packaged, you know, adversity stories that he’s selling. So I think in a sense to the memoir is like, I’m going to try to write this, this real thing, you know, I’m going to try to like, tell the story, how I’ve always wanted to tell it and not try to cut the corners. And, you know, like, this is this is his, like, complex, right? Trying hardest work. Whereas like, God stuff, he’s writing for the magazine. He’s just like, riffing off and lying getting high. And just like, you know, writing it off, right?

Traci Thomas 17:02
What’s funny is like, there’s a few times in the book where the real thing is way more interesting than the thing that Javi writes. And I was getting so annoyed. So I was like, right about that? Yeah, I won’t say what they are. But I’m okay. This is a moral question for you. Because this is something that the book brought up for me, and I really haven’t decided, so I’m hoping you’re gonna sway me. Okay. Do you think? Because what Hobie does is he writes about things that are like close to his experience, but he embellish is, and he does that from the start of his college essays, all the way through his career. And I’m wondering, do you think if he truly experienced the things that he wrote, then it would be bad for him to write about them? Like if those things that he lied about? Were actually true to his story? Do you? Like do you feel like the Lying is the problem, or the capitalizing on the oppression is the problem?

Andrew Boryga 17:56
It’s a great question. I think the capitalizing is sometimes, like, for me, it’s like, it’s a it’s a, it’s, it’s hard, it’s hard question. It’s a fine line, right? And again, I don’t necessarily have like the clean answers, because it’s like, like, in one sense, it’s important to write about your personal experience, especially if they are going to resonate with people who have gone through similar experiences, right? And if they’re, if they’re about like, groups of people who are marginalized, and who don’t get the same shine as others, right. So that’s important, but it’s like, I guess to me, it’s like, if you’re doing it, it’s like intention, right? If the intention is like, I’m really trying to explain something in a way that’s not going to be explained if someone else writes the story. And as a result, I’m going to go into my personal background and history to do that, because that’s important. Then me personally, like, again, this is me speaking personally, everyone who wants to do it can do it their own way. But to me, that’s how I look at it. Like, I’m gonna do that when it feels like necessary and useful. But if I’m doing it, like, self serving Lee, and it’s like, I just know that whatever magazine is gonna take the story, because it’s like, they’re gonna love this type of thing. Right? Especially if it’s something that’s like, really personal, like, I’m gonna air out family business, stuff like that. It’s like, what do I really need to do that? Like, right? What what is this serving, you know? And so it’s like a really fine line. I think a lot of writers find themselves in that position. And it’s something like especially right it’s a color that I feel like, yeah, I have this like, tragic thing and my family lines or like, my parents or whatever, do I just write about it to write about it? Because I know it’s gonna become like a front page story. This magazine I want to get into or do I like, save it, which is like a weird thing to say, right? For something else. Like it’s like, right? And it’s just weird. And I think it goes, it speaks to the bigger issues of like, a lot of these publications and the way this like, writing system is set up. It’s like, if you’re a personal call, you kind of have to like trade on these stories in a way that like a white writer, or like someone else maybe doesn’t have to, you know, or like, think about these things. You know what I mean? If so, yeah, I don’t know if it’s a clear answer to be honest.

Traci Thomas 20:13
No, I don’t think there is a clear answer. Yeah. Where I My head’s at is like, I sort of feel like, the Lying is less bad to me. Like I sort of Yeah, I sort of don’t think the worst thing in the world. I do think like, if you’re a journalist, and you’re reporting a story, right to report the truth, but I think if you’re writing an opinion, Bs, yeah, no, no, I don’t want you to lie. But like, to me lying is not the greatest sin. Like, I think sometimes people act like lying is the worst thing you could possibly do. And I just don’t feel that way. Like sometimes I think you have to lie. Like sometimes I just think it hurts people, it hurts people’s feelings less. It’s not worth it. Sometimes I like just so that I look like more of the bad guy to like, protect other people. Like, I think there’s reasons and times to lie. Yeah. So for me, I’m not so like, more like I wasn’t. So like, morally opposed to what Javi does, like the stretchings of the truth. To me, I think that even being asked to write these things, is like, the most offensive thing in the world, right? Like, this idea that like this, like the editor, but even like, because the thing that’s I mean, of course, so interesting is like, yes, you take the N takes us to like the media landscape. But before we’re talking about high school, and like to progress into college, and just like being in a classroom, and like lying to feel comfortable in a classroom, or like lying to feel comfortable and like a, you know, like, the it’s like the Latino group, that he’s a part of the Black Student Union, it could be you know, I mean, organization within a campus, but like, lying, or like punching up your story to feel like you fit in. And I think all of that like capitalizing on the oppression, to me is a lot is a lot like yucky or because it’s like continuing to Yeah, like feed these narratives and like continuing to make it so that an editor can say like, you should write about this, right? Because that’s like, where we quote unquote people of color, think that the art like our value is, you know, yeah, yeah, I guess. And to that point, I want to talk about the intra community, sort of language performance, progressive liberalism, stuff that you’re getting at, because you are sort of securing progressives, and a lot of ways I would say, I guess, or do Do you feel that way? That you have that?

Andrew Boryga 22:24
Yeah, I mean, to be honest, I was trying to just skewer like, yeah, you know, what I mean, just, like, bring up a lot of stuff. It’s like, what’s really happening here? You know, so like, I didn’t, I wouldn’t say I was like, necessarily, only going at them. But not only. Yeah, because like, you know, I think it’s the most frustrating part. Like, as you’re moving through this world, as a writer of color, like, I just feel like, there is, like, yeah, we want your voice. And I’m like, Oh, cool. But then it’s like, but if you only write about these types of things, and it’s like, and that sucks, you know, to hear that over and over. And I don’t think that people sometimes understand what that does to you as well. Or like, what it conveys to you, the writer, it’s like, you’re only valuable if you read about these types of things, you know,

Traci Thomas 23:22
But what about like the, like, within like, the Latino student group? Yeah. Yeah. You know, there’s, there’s a lot of performance going on in there. Yeah. And I felt like, I mean, I felt like I read that you were sort of you had opinions about that, too. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I use the girlfriend.

Andrew Boryga 23:39
Yeah, the I think the performance, you know, that happens, especially the kind of place on a college campus, right? Where you get all these students who, you know, like, let’s say, Latino students, for example, they come from all types of backgrounds, right? Like, there’s Javi, who’s like kind of a poor kid from the Bronx, and I use who’s like from the suburbs in Albany. There’s like kids who, you know, come from all types of backgrounds. And when you get on a college campus, especially like a primarily white institution, where you’re just lumped together as POC or the Latino students, there’s sort of like this jockeying that starts to occur for like position and status, because you’re sort of like, jockeying for that position to be noticed, in a lot of ways amongst the greater student population. Right. It’s something that I saw that happen a lot at Cornell, where I went for undergrad.

Traci Thomas 24:30
Shots fired, Cornell.

Andrew Boryga 24:32
I mean, you know, it’s, it’s, yeah, but it’s something that I hear I hear from a lot of people who go to schools like that and who come from backgrounds like mine, you know, where it’s like, you’re thrust into this campus. There’s, there’s only a few of you. And then I don’t know like if you want certain positions, or you want to be getting into some secret societies or whatever, like there’s always weird shit that goes on, like people want on campus and it’s like, you kind of have to make make yourself stand out in some ways. And so I was trying to get at that and how like, I don’t know, when you get to college, it’s this like new performance space and a lot of ways where you’re like trying out different identities that you didn’t really have a chance to, like, try out when you were in high school, when you were back home, everybody knows you. And it’s like, ah, like, you’re not really like that. Because, like, nobody’s around you that really knows you, you can kind of make up whoever you want to eat.

Traci Thomas 25:28
So I also feel like sort of on the flip side is like, you also don’t even know that these are options for you. Right? Exactly. Like not even not even because like Javi comes from the Bronx. But just like, when you get to college, you meet all sorts of people. And you’re like, Whoa, like, yeah, like this? Yeah, dress like that. And like, I didn’t know people like this kind of food, like, like, there’s just so much that, you know, can can change for you when you are in any space, which I think like Hobby really plays with like language. And like discovering, like, like buzzwords and stuff.

Andrew Boryga 26:01
Yeah all these like big academic terms. And it’s like, I can what does this do? Like, you know, I’m gonna try these.

Traci Thomas 26:07
Yeah like, and they shift it shifts the energy in the room, or like, it has an impact. This is, I think, my big question for you. Because this is something that I’ve seen on the internet, from people who’ve read the book, is there’s this sort of like, conversation about the straw man argument of this book, right? Like, if this book falls into the wrong hands, it gets the wrong kind of person, the ability to be like, see, affirmative action is stupid. And there’s no such thing as racism, and all these people are just making it up. It’s a performance. They’re just fucking with white people. Like they don’t really feel bad. Like this poor kid from the Bronx doesn’t even see racism. He’s just using this word. So like, how do you grapple with that argument? Which I think personally is like, pretty bad space. But I do understand where it comes from. And I am curious, like, if you’ve seen it, if you’ve heard it, what you think about that?

Andrew Boryga 27:12
Yeah, I mean, I’ve I guess I might, as I’ve seen it, maybe a couple of could read reviews and stuff like that. Yeah, I do read them. People tell me not to. But just because I don’t know, I honestly appreciate anybody who reads the book and who takes the time to write it. But I don’t know. Maybe I should.

Traci Thomas 27:29
Just I know people who have friends who read them for them. Yeah. If people say like, really nice things they might send them. Don’t, Don’t- be over there.

Andrew Boryga 27:41
No, I hear that. Um, so I mean, no, I think it’s, it’s a really important question. And it’s, it’s something that like, I know, me personally, I know that that’s not what I was trying to get at with the shore. Right? You know what I mean? So it’s like, so it’s like, and I know what I stand for. And so it’s a type of thing that like, I kind of can’t control it. You know, what I mean? Like, it’s once it’s out in the world, if people want to run with it, that’s their prerogative. I don’t write I don’t I think that if you read the book, oh, say nothing, like, generously enough, you will see that that’s not really what right gonna be said, but it’s like, I could totally see somebody doing that, and feeling like, they think that they’re right, you know, or whatever. But like, me as the author, at that point, it’s like, kind of out of my hands, you know, like, I, I spent my time on it. I know that I was trying to get at some bigger questions, and that, and the idea that, like, none of that stuff exists isn’t necessarily one of them. But you know, if that’s what people take away from it, I don’t know, like, I can’t, I can’t go out and like, necessarily stop them. Or maybe they asked me or something. And I’d be like, Well, I don’t know if you got it right.

Traci Thomas 29:00
You do not respond. Back away slowly. Let me just tell you don’t. debut author, let me get some advice. If they asked you pretend like you didn’t see it. You’ve never been on the internet. What is Instagram? Never heard of it?

Andrew Boryga 29:14
I’m still learning.

Traci Thomas 29:15
Do not engage. I just think I mean, it’s an interesting question, because I think it is, the thing about satire is that it requires like, irony, and art, you know, it requires that the author has a wink and a nod to the audience. So if you’re not in that in group, you don’t necessarily get the joke. So I understand how some people can read the book and be like, Oh, this is advocating for XYZ. Obviously, that’s not your intention. But I’m just curious, like, as the person who’s written that, and it sounds like you sort of are like well, that’s your problem, not mine. But it is it is something that I think about because like I remember when I read The Sellout by Paul Beatty. Oh yeah. So one of the first satire books I really like tried to read for real that was about people of color. And I really struggled actually want to go back and revisit it. Because now I feel like I, I’m sort of into satire now, specifically by people of color. Yeah. And I’m like, I want to go back. Because the first half I really liked, and I felt like I really got it. And then the second half, I was like, what is happening here? And so and I read it before I ever started this podcast, like before I really started like thinking, talking books. So I understand how when you read satire, if it doesn’t click for you, or like, you’re not part of the audience, that, that you could feel like you were reading something that’s maybe not there.

Andrew Boryga 30:40
Yeah. I mean, yeah, for sure. And I think I mean, I think me as a writer, as well, like Paul, but he’s somebody that I admire tremendously. And I love his work. And I think he’s as important as he is, because he’s like, like, he’s kind of fear. I mean, the premise of that novel was wild, right? Yeah. Yeah. So and like, even to, like, say that, like, it’s just a crazy, you know, like reinstating sky was basically really black. Like, it’s like a crazy thing to say out loud. But then when you read it, you know, it’s a phenomenal book. And I think, as the writer, like, for so many years, I try to limit myself to make sure like, okay, only the right people are gonna get what I’m saying here, like anything that like, ah, like, I’m gonna pull things away, because I’m, you know, and like, and I think the work suffered, because I was too concerned with that, you know, and I had to make a choice. While I was like, you know, I really want to write about this stuff, I have a way that I really think should be written about, and that I think would, you know, sort of, like, advance the conversation a little bit more. But it’s a little risky. And like, again, I had to fall back on like, I know what my intentions are here. Hopefully, I succeed, for the most part, and the outliers, that’s going to happen, you know, and that’s just it is what it is. But, you know, I like, I feel, like proud of the book. And I think it’s because because I know, like I didn’t pull back, you know, right, or, like, try to make sure carefully curate that, like only the right people got it. And people did not get it, you know, and I think you lose something when you do that. You know, yeah, we just want to play that game.

Traci Thomas 32:19
I agree. I mean, I think it’s pretty crucial to satire to like, be specific and like that, not everybody’s on the inside of the gym. Right? Some people on the outside. Have you? I mean, since you read your good readers reviews now, I’m really, is there any criticism of the book that you’ve heard that you’ve agreed with? Oh, like, yeah, I could have done that better.

Andrew Boryga 32:37
There was like, there was there was a few people who were like, you know, he didn’t do like the father. It’s really early on the first chapter. So I don’t think it’s a spoiler, but the father is killed early on, right. And he’s, you know, grows up fatherless. And there was a, there was a, there was a few people who was like, Oh, I wish you would have explored that more, you know, and that’s something was like, I thought about that. And I’m trying to like with this next book to do that. But it was also, I was trying to do so many things that I was like, I can’t like I have a little bit of that in there. But I, I guess I could see where I could have maybe done more of that. But I think it would have been kind of a different novel. And also, when I was writing this, I was processing my own like, Oh, interesting. fatherlessness. And so becoming a dad and like, so this is all stuff. I’m like thinking more and more about now that hopefully, hopefully will translate to the next book. But I’ve seen people say that I’m like, Yeah, you’re right. Like, I just I don’t think I have the ability to do right.

Traci Thomas 33:34
Yeah. And like, everything doesn’t go in every book. I’m just so curious, because most authors do not read. So I know. But I’m obsessed with criticism.

Andrew Boryga 33:42
My editor last week for the book torch was like, Don’t read, do they my age and my editor like reviews, but Well, I don’t know. Like I, I was a journalist for so long. And I would get these wild as emails from people all day who just didn’t read the story. And we’re just like, just looked at my name. It didn’t like me or my picture, whatever, right? And so kind of like desensitize me, because I saw a lot of them were like, not even, it was clear to see like, to like, which ones were like actually trying to give a pointed critique and which one was just like, I don’t like you, you know, and I’m gonna write you my hatred on this site or whatever, this email platform.

Traci Thomas 34:18
Yeah, no, I get it. I like criticism. I’m obviously so interested in it, but I also I come from a theatre background. And so we do a lot of constructive criticism. And yeah, so collaborative. So I really like criticism. I like when people I mean, when people tell me I talk with vocal fry, or whatever, I’m like, Oh, you can fucking die. If they say something actually criticize, like, critical about the show, or like, I really like it. It’s the hard part about a place like Goodreads is you can’t sift that for yourself. Like you can’t sift good interesting critique from Andrew as an idiot, you know, like, okay, not helpful. I might be an idiot, but can you explain why?

Andrew Boryga 34:58
But if I see like if I see people whereas if I said, like, I’m gonna scroll, because I don’t you’re not even really engaged. You know what I mean? Like, if you if you give me a one star you right, there’s like really immersive, like, I’m gonna read. I’m gonna read it. I might even like it. I’m like, Alright, maybe I don’t agree with you. But I appreciate you taking the time to do that, ya know.

Traci Thomas 35:15
For sure, for sure. That’s a good outlook. Was there ever a different title for the book? Or was it always victims?

Andrew Boryga 35:23
They had so many titles. It was called Double Dutch at first. Like, I Yeah, because I was like, trying to write about this, this friendship story. And like, these two friends who grew up in the same neighborhood and take vastly different paths, and then the idea of like, bouncing from one sort of like, existence growing up and identity, you know, this like Bronx, like, lower class, whatever, identity and then being in places like Cornell and magazines and stuff on the writing for like, how I always never felt like comfortable because I felt like I was like, I felt like I was doing this weird dance between these two spaces. And then I it was called the hype for a while. And that, yeah, that was like, again, that was like one of the social media stuff I was trying to write about and get into all that. And then victim, I think it was only three. It might have been the one in between them.

Traci Thomas 36:17
I like it. I like I like his victims. Like such a seems like such an obvious title for this book. So yeah, it’s up there.

Andrew Boryga 36:23
No, it was like seconds later.

Traci Thomas 36:26
Yeah. And what about the cover? Were you involved at all at that process?

Andrew Boryga 36:30
Um, you know what? Like, I wish I could say that. I was like, Yeah, put Domino’s that was totally the cover artists and designer and it was beautiful. Like they said, I’ve heard horror stories about people’s cover process, but they sent that to me. I was like, That’s fucking gorgeous. Was it? The first one? No, like, we changed some some color schemes. But the Domino’s were there, like, you know, I was there. I had, I had given some input on color schemes. And like, I wanted it to look like a bodega awning. Okay, you know, and like, or like the color palette of that or whatever. Yeah, so I had some input like that. But the Domino’s was, that was beautiful. Because I mean, I’m Puerto Rican. And like, we like, it hits all like multiple levels. It’s like not only the story, but the plane download filter. So yeah, I love it. I love the cover.

Traci Thomas 37:15
So the Puerto Rican people play a lot of dominoes. Oh, yeah. I think that has been such a black thing.

Andrew Boryga 37:20
No, we play yeah, we play tons of dominoes.

Traci Thomas 37:23
Yes, you play dominoes. I’m so bad at because I’m so bad at math. I’m so slow.

Andrew Boryga 37:29
I’m like, I mean, I’m a very I’m a super like passive like, there’s people in my family who do the Calculate. They’re like the freakin mean. We’re all about math in the air. Like, I can’t do all that. I’m just like, I owe this a six. Okay, I got maybe I should do this one.

Traci Thomas 37:45
You know, I can’t think fast enough. I can’t think fast enough for my little my little like dominoes. I’m like, What do I have here? So my brother will help me. Oh, yeah, sometimes, but then if I do too good. Then he stops helping. I’m like, it’s 10. He’s like, it’s eight. You idiot. And I’m like, Okay, well. I also hate Scrabble, Scrabble. I’m so bad at Scrabble. Scrabble is my nemesis. Oh my god, I bring it out. I leave the room.

Andrew Boryga 38:14
No, it’s the worst because everyone assumes I’m gonna be good at it. I’m like, I’m so bad.

Traci Thomas 38:19
I’m a notorious terrible speller. Are you a good speller? No. What’s the word? You can never spell correctly on the first try?

Andrew Boryga 38:25
Oh man. You know, lately, I’ve had to write out excerpts a lot like people asking for excerpts or like looking for extra long typing in emails. And it’s yeah, it’s super hard. I always spell it wrong.

Traci Thomas 38:36
I e, x c, e RPT? Yeah, I think I’ve never spelled a word right. It’s so funny because some words you can just spell in some words-

Andrew Boryga 38:46
A few, like the like formal lineup Oh, yeah.

Traci Thomas 38:51
If there’s multiple E’s that’s a word that I we don’t it’s not just in California you idiots in New York or like I’m in the queue. I mean like it’s in line you only need one version you don’t need online or queue or whatever in line. A thing I hated about New York was that those two phrases when online online you’re not online. You’re in you’re alone. I’m standing alone. But is there a line you’re physically standing on? No, you’re in a line of other humans. See, this is why we this is why we butt heads because you don’t believe my words are better than your words and they are-

Andrew Boryga 39:31
I never believed I never not believed in chess the I was just like, I never heard that before. That’s all.

Traci Thomas 39:37
you are doubting a little bit. I can’t remember who it was. We were with Arvind maybe and he was also arriving early. Yeah, shouting me together. And that was part of the problem is that you two are ganging up and both being like I’ve never heard that before. And I was like looking for a lifeline now and I got it from Instagram.

Andrew Boryga 39:55
My recollection.

Traci Thomas 39:58
I don’t know. Okay, tell me about How you wrote the book where were you? How often do you write? How many hours a day? Yes or no? Do you have TV on in the background snacks or beverages? Set the scene.

Andrew Boryga 40:09
Okay, So I write from five to 7am every day. Well, Monday through Friday.

Traci Thomas 40:16
What time do you wake up to start writing at?

Andrew Boryga 40:18
Five, I get it get up at five. I used to make coffee, and do all this stuff. That was like before I had my kids and I have like my own, I hold my own little like writing room. That writing room became my son’s room. And then it became my son and daughter’s room. So now I write at the dining table. My my bedroom, and I don’t make coffee because it makes so much noise and I want to come up. So for a while, like when I was really sleepy, I would make like, like, what’s it called, like, pre workout?

Traci Thomas 40:51
Oh, the caffeine.

Andrew Boryga 40:55
I put it in some like seltzer like a mega big cocktail, and just like have some of that. And then I was like, that’s probably not good to have that much caffeine, your body like right away. So I stopped doing that. But yeah, it’s not glamorous at all. It’s like me in the dark. Like with minimal light now, like, I try not to wake people up on my dining table.

Traci Thomas 41:15
So no music either then I guess?

Andrew Boryga 41:17
No I don’t really do music. Honestly, I just like writing that early in the morning because there’s no distractions. There’s nothing going on. I’m somebody who, who can be easily like if I see an email or something or a notification, I’ll go off and start scrolling and I’d lose like half an hour. 45 minutes. And it’s like now that I have kids, it’s like I really can’t, like at that time is gone. It’s gone. This is never coming back for us today. So I really tried to just like focus on those two hours. Snacks wise. I’m not a big snapper either. Um, I know I feel like I’m like It’s like I like reward myself afterwards sometimes with um, you know, I really like like yogurt granola.

Traci Thomas 42:08
I know the biggest disappointment of my life I talk about us all the time is when Clint Smith told me that he eats clementines because clementines are like candy and I was like no, they’re like oranges. To oranges like let’s let’s be real.

Andrew Boryga 42:23
That’s a cool mental trick though.

Traci Thomas 42:26
Yeah I love yogurt. The Greek Fage brand?

Andrew Boryga 42:31
No, I get the light Chobani or like Winn Dixie.

Traci Thomas 42:37
Do you put fruit honey granola?

Andrew Boryga 42:40
When I’m like trying to be fancy. Yeah, put some fruit with my kids. You know? What if it’s me feverishly eating just straight up.

Traci Thomas 42:51
But like the flavor is plain?

Andrew Boryga 42:53
Oh, yeah. Plain.

Traci Thomas 42:55
I go with a plain phi the one F A G, you know? 2% I see that one. You’ll you’ll recognize that it’s very common. It’s like the other one besides Chobani and I do a kind granola the like oats and coconut and then I like the jumbo blueberries and honey. That’s really my mind or if blackberries are in season. I go with that too. I do not like a strawberry. I think strawberry is a bullshit fruit. What’s? Yeah, strawberry is a fake good for great strawberries are great. But a regular strawberry is not a good fruit.

Andrew Boryga 43:28
Strawberry is not a real fruit. I don’t know.

Traci Thomas 43:31
It is a real fruit. It’s just bullshit. It’s just like people talk about strawberries on Saturdays. Oh, it’s delicious. Like regular strawberry. Just a standard not like an exceptional farmer’s market. Perfect strawberry in the middle of July. But just like if you were to go get strawberries today. Bullshit. That is an unserious for okay, sorry, I seem to get it together. This is such a hot take. I feel like people are gonna be upset about this, but it’s true for me. Okay, what about when did you know you wanted to be a writer?

Andrew Boryga 44:03
I knew when I was 16, I decided.

Traci Thomas 44:08
Because you thought you were gonna get $100,000.

Andrew Boryga 44:10
No, no, no, actually the opposite. I had always liked writing always like reading. But I was actually you know, most of my friends growing up, we didn’t have houses. We all live in apartments and have one friend whose dad was an engineer in the Bronx. They had a house and I was like, You got a house. I want a house. So my mind I was like, I’m gonna be an engineer. And then I realized what you have to do to become an engineer. It’s always a domino.

Yeah, exactly.

I had no conception of any of that. And so when I figured that out, I was like, You know what, maybe I’m not going to care as much about making money. I’m just gonna try to find something that I actually enjoyed doing. Like what do I enjoy doing? What am I good at that I enjoy? And I was like writing and so that so I decided at that point, and I really haven’t looked back like I started writing for local newspapers. I did journalism for like 10 years. And it’s you know, it’s basically been the thing I’ve done have ever done anything else.

Traci Thomas 45:07
Wow. And you taught, yeah?

Andrew Boryga 45:09
Yeah I taught writing at University of Miami. I taught in prison for a couple years as well. And, and I did a couple summer programs here in Miami.

Traci Thomas 45:19
Do you have another job now? Or are you strictly a writer?

Andrew Boryga 45:22
Yes, I have a day job. Now I work for Edutopia, which is an education company. We write and edit articles for teachers. It’s like research innovative practices. So I’ve always been involved.

Traci Thomas 45:33
What’s that like in Florida right now?

Andrew Boryga 45:36
Well I love working for them, because they are focused on solutions, right? So we don’t really write about the crazy political nonsense going on. And there’s a lot of it sadly, but we just focus on like, hey, this research, you know, these practices according to research or something you might want to try in your classroom, right and highlight it and break it down for teachers. So it’s kind of like in the weeds a little bit, but I enjoy it. Because I hear from teachers all the time about how much of an impact it makes and how, because we’re not focusing on like, the crazy political nonsense, like it’s cutting above the noise. It’s like I can actually use this in the classroom and like, so. Yeah, education is something that’s like, hugely important to me. I went to public schools mostly and got a scholarship to go to a Catholic school for high school. And that was like, I’ve just seen, like so many facets of the system that like I very invested in trying to like, improve it.

Traci Thomas 46:30
And then you went to a fancy Ivy League then went to a fancy Ivy League school, very fancy coronary fancy, yes. The second best school in New York State behind NYU, my alma mater. Okay, we have a little time so we can talk about baseball because you’re a baseball. Yeah, good. First of all, you need to tell the people what the hell is wrong with you. You’re from the Bronx, but you’re a Mets fan. It’s insane. I’ve never heard of this before. I lived in New York for eight years. I’ve never met a person from the Bronx. I even lived in the Bronx. I’ve never met someone. For the Mets. It’s crazy. I know. You probably know more people. I was there for like six months, but still like it’s a crazy this is it’s not normal.

Andrew Boryga 47:10
I’ll grant you that. Yeah. So so basically what happened is my stepdad who was with my mom for a while, he was in my life, and he’s still alive, but living with me and stuff. When I was like 10 or 11, he got to me young. He’s a huge Mets fan from the Bronx, grew up in the projects, whatever reason he’s a Mets fan, his dad’s a Mets fan. And so he got into me young. And, and yeah, like, that was the first team I ever really started to watch. And I fell in love with them. I just Yankee fans are so annoying. I mean, you live in New York. Yankee fans are awful. They’re mad annoying, you know, and it’s like it especially in the Bronx. So he’s just talking about how many chapters they want and this is when they had like, I was growing up they had Jeter and like Andy Pettitte a rod to, you know, a rod to I was already they had Giambi, Bernie Williams, you know, this was like, 90s, early 2000s. And they were like a dynasty. They were just winning every year. Yeah. And I don’t know, I think part of me also, like, I’m always rooting for underdogs, you know, and like, I’ve maybe, I guess, maybe I identify more with the Mets. I feel more like an underdog. So for whatever reason. They’ve always been my team. There’s been a lot of misery. We’ve never won a championship in my lifetime.

Traci Thomas 48:25
So you’re when were you born because they went in 86? Right?

Andrew Boryga 48:28
I was 91.

Traci Thomas 48:29
So okay, yeah. They won the year I was born. You’re welcome. You shoulda been born when I was born and then you could have had it.

Andrew Boryga 48:36
I’m hoping that I will see it one day. That’s that’s gonna be any good this year? No, probably not. I can’t lie to you. I mean, if we go like 500 I will be happy. To be honest. We went at four games. I’d be a happy person.

Traci Thomas 48:54
Can I sell you on a book right now? Please? came out today. We’re recording. It’s called Charlie hustle. Yeah. book about Pete Rose. Are you interested in that at all? I am interested in fucking fantastic. Yeah, I’m so like, legitimately, every time I have a free moment, I’m putting it I’m listening. I’m putting it on. And I’m, I’m getting I’m getting. I just got to the investigator. I’m so excited. Because I mean, you and I are both too young to actually admit that it happened when I was like two, I guess. And I knew sort of the idea of Pete Rose. He was a cheater. I knew he gambled on baseball. I didn’t understand the magnitude of who he was how long he was a player manager. He’d been in the league since like the 60s. He’s like, he was a real fucking asshole. Cestius He’s the king of the Jessie’s like Truly, this book, I’m so into it, but it’s a hard sell. Because a lot of people don’t care about baseball, and I get that but I care about baseball and I love baseball history. And so for me, I’m like, who can I push this to?

Andrew Boryga 49:57
I would I would totally read that book. I will. That night I met you, Lisa Lucas was there. So I’ve seen her post about it. And I’m like, Okay.

Traci Thomas 50:07
It’s really good. Yeah, really good. And I was like, do I care about Pete Rose and the audiobooks, almost 15 hours? And I was like, do I care about Pete Rose for 10 hours? And you know what? I have two hours left, and I fucking do. I care about him so much for two more hours. Yeah, yeah. Well, the only thing I care about this year in baseball is that the Dodgers don’t win. Because I’m a Giants fan, and I fucking hate the Dodgers. And all of my predictions are I’m taking the field against the Dodgers and guys to show Hey, Otani. I might actually wait.

Andrew Boryga 50:40
Yeah. I think the Dodgers are not going to be as good as people think they are. Yeah, and the Giants. I’m not sure. But you guys got. I don’t know. You gotta pitch like snow. He’s pretty. He’s good. So I don’t know.

Traci Thomas 50:54
I just don’t I just have become I’ve stopped being a Giants fan. And I’ve started just becoming a Dodger hater. Like, I fully feel like I know more about the Dodgers. Here, you know, like, I’m like, Please pitch Clayton. Postseason.

Andrew Boryga 51:10
That is how I felt living in New York. Right. And being around Yankee fans because they were like that.

Traci Thomas 51:16
Yeah, I got it. Well, I understand why people from other boroughs in New York are gay or not Yankee fans, but Bronx people. It’s just so like, I feel like everyone from the Bronx our whole personalities like.

Andrew Boryga 51:27
Yeah. When you’re born when you’re born in the hospital, they give you a Yankees fitted, they just-

Traci Thomas 51:34
Instead of like the stupid bow, they’re like, Yeah, take this. That’s my that’s my Bronx accent, thank you. Okay, we got to get out of here soon. Let me ask you this. Do you know what comes next for you?

Andrew Boryga 51:47
Yeah, I mean, I kind of mentioned like, I’m trying to, like this whole. All the issues that are covered in victim were things that were like, I was obsessing about for a long period of time. That’s why I wrote about and I feel like I got out of my system. And so like, now what I’m most obsessing over is like parenthood fatherhood, like what does it mean to be a good Modern Dad? What does that even look like? Or like, right? Oh, man, like it’s just like a weird space and time we’re in and and so I don’t know exactly what will be will probably be some fictional story around that.

Traci Thomas 52:22
And who’s the coolest person who’s expressed interest or excitement about Victim?

Andrew Boryga 52:28
Fab Five Freddy. Oh, yeah. He I sent it to him. Yeah, we I met him way back when I did a story about Jean, Jean Michel Basquiat, like in 2009 or something. And we hung out a little bit and like, I was like, Oh, you’re so fucking cool when I was like, 20 years old, at least by Friday. Anyway, so I sent him the book. And he like, shared it on Facebook. That he’s like, I can’t wait to read this. I’m like, Oh, shit. Sounds awesome.

Traci Thomas 52:55
Yeah. For people who love Victim. What are some other things you might recommend that are in conversation?

Andrew Boryga 53:00
Um, Paul Betty, shoutout for sure. Matt Johnson’s work. He’s another writer. I’m a huge fan of Loving Day. excellent book. Danzy Senna. Yeah, I can’t wait to read her new novel but New People was great.

Traci Thomas 53:17
The new one’s even better.

Andrew Boryga 53:18
Yeah. And incredible. I can’t Yeah, it’s looks amazing. And Yellowface was last year, you know, publishing industry. But definitely in conversation.

Traci Thomas 53:30
I think Erasure too.

Andrew Boryga 53:31
Right, Erasure as well. I I’m shamed to admit I have not read. I had it on my shelf for like, a long time.

Traci Thomas 53:40
And then did you see the movie American Fiction?

Andrew Boryga 53:42
I did. And I did see the movie now. I’m like, way better. I know. So now I gotta read the book. But I’ve been meaning to read it for a long time.

Traci Thomas 53:49
I mean, it’s definitely like in conversation for sure. I think even more so than Yellowface.

Andrew Boryga 53:55
Yeah, it’s a book that I’ve always heard about. And like, I bought it and I don’t know, I feel like in like 2014 2015 or something I like, try to read it. And for whatever reason. I couldn’t do it at that time. Yeah, I wasn’t ready yet. But yeah, now I’m definitely ready.

Traci Thomas 54:12
You’re ready. You’re ready. Last question. If you could have one person dead or alive read this book. Who would you want it to be?

Andrew Boryga 54:18
Oh, man. Um, man. I would say- he’s alive. But we’ll see. Because his last album I feel like dealt with a lot of this Kendrick Lamar. I feel like he would like it. And I like the newest album of his.

Traci Thomas 54:38
Is that the one where he talks about like his Aunt?

Andrew Boryga 54:40
Yes, yes. Um, I love all his stuff. And it’s probably like, not something I would revisit as often as maybe like his first album necessarily, but, but I think he was exploring a lot of interesting topics and growth and like development for himself. And I don’t know, I just I listened to it again recently and I was like, I feel like you liked the book, but have no way of reaching him.

Traci Thomas 55:05
Oh, interesting. All right, everybody. You’ve been listening to conversation with me and Andrew Boryga, and he’s the author of Victim and the book is out in the world and you can get it wherever you get your books. Have you listened to the audiobook?

Andrew Boryga 55:15
Yes, it’s excellent.

Traci Thomas 55:17
Is it? My friend said it was good. I didn’t listen. I just read it off the page. But so okay, the audiobooks good to trust Andrew and trust Sara, Fiction Matters Sara, she says, let’s get on audio. Anyways. Get the book wherever you guys get your books. It’s out now in the world. Andrew, thank you so much for being here.

Andrew Boryga 55:32
Thank you so much for having me. This was great. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 55:35
And everyone else we will see you in the stacks.

All right, y’all. Thank you so much for listening. And thank you again to Andrew Boryga for joining the show. Remember the stacks book club pick for April is The January children by Safia Elhillo, which we will discuss on Wednesday, April 24th with our guest Hala Alyan. if you love this show and you want insight access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join the stacks pack. Make sure you’re subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you’re listening through Apple podcast, be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from the stacks. Follow us on social media at the stacks pod on Instagram threads and tick tock at the stacks pod underscore on Twitter. And of course check out our website the stacks podcast.com This episode of the stacks was edited by Cristian Duenas with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. Our graphic designer is Robin MacWrite. The Stacks is created and produced by me Traci Thomas.

Cherie Marquez https://www.cmediacollective.com/
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