Ep. 356 The Ministry of Time by Kaliane Bradley — The Stacks Book Club (J Wortham)

Written By Megan Caballero

It’s The Stacks Book Club Day, and we’re diving into The Ministry of Time by Kaliane Bradley with returning guest J Wortham. We explore the book’s layered genres, discuss its most compelling moments, and reflect on the parts that didn’t quite land. Plus, we consider the question: is it possible to unplug from empire?

There are spoilers on this episode.

Be sure to listen to the end of today’s episode to find out what our February book club pick will be.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

J Wortham 0:00

Sometimes books work for my brain at certain times, and I think I was just really ready to read a book about the instability of what we think of as the present and what we think of as the future, because it feels so unstable. And I just, I don't think you can believe anything that the narrator tells us, like this entire book is about how all of these historical figures they get could change time. The main character can actually see beyond herself and her own, like obsession and fantasy with like this Kate and Leopold fanfic she's having with this man, you know. And I just, I think it's distracting, because the book focuses from her perspective on these things, but I think that's kind of the point.

Traci Thomas 0:48

Welcome to the stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and it is the stacks book club day. It's our first one of 2025 and I am so excited to be discussing the ministry of time by debut author Kaliane Bradley, with our returning guest, J Wortham, this sci fi, speculative romance time travel novel follows a covert government agency working behind the scenes to prevent changes to history, exploring the complexities of memory, time and identity along the way. Today, J and I give you a spoiler filled conversation about personal responsibility, colonialism and the legacies that this book attempts to interrogate. As a reminder, there will be spoilers on today's episode, so make sure you've read the book before you listen and listen all the way to the end of today's episode to find out what our February book club pick will be everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. Listen if you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks pack. You get a bunch of perks, like bonus episodes, access to the discord, the mega reading challenge. And if you joined before January 31 you can get access to my amazing reading, spreadsheet tracker and a shout out on this podcast. That's right, the shout out perk, which we've had since 2018 is going away for good. So if you join before January 31 you get to hear me read your name head to patreon.com/the stacks to earn that special limited edition perk. Shout out to some of our newest members of the stacks. Pack, Daniel de Jesus, Jennifer booth, Brittany C Jonathan Lasher, Hannah Stern, Rachel Rooney, Tiffany Eastham, Carol Ann, Matthew barge, Maris, Adams, Angie N Murphy and Amy Johns. Thank you all so much for joining the stacks pack, and thank you to every single member. All right, now it's time for my conversation with J Wertham about the ministry of time.

All right, everybody, it's the stacks book club day. I'm so excited I get to welcome back. J Wortham, to the stacks. J, welcome back. Hi, hi. We're talking about the book that you picked. Okay, so people who are mad, you just email J at I hate this book.com. The book is The Ministry of time by Kelly and Bradley. For those of you who are listening, who have not read the book, it is important that you know there will be spoilers on today's episode. It is also important that you know if you want to listen to a conversation that is spoiler free about this book, I talked to Cully Ann Bradley about the book absolutely zero spoilers two weeks ago, so you can go back and listen to that if you want a spoiler free moment until you finish the book that being said, we are going to spoil the shit out of this book. So that is your warning. I know J famously doesn't care about spoilers. I am a person who does care about spoilers, so proceed at your own risk. Okay, we always start here for book club. Generally. What did you think of the book?

J Wortham 4:00

I enjoyed it. That's why I picked it. It really itched all the right parts of my brain.

Traci Thomas 4:06

What did it itch? What was what worked for you, what it stands out to you as like, the biggest like, yes, for you,

J Wortham 4:12

the themes of the book are really compelling to me. I read this. I reread it for our book club. But what the first time I read this book, I should say it took me a few tries to get into the book. So I do, I really do understand people who have a hard time with this book. Since we talked, I didn't realize this book was so controversial and so polarizing, so I kind of went on a deep dive to read what other people had to say about it in various corners of the internet. But this book was highly, highly, highly recommended to me by one of my favorite Smarties in my life, afiza Gator, who is an actual brilliant genius. And so I read it to appease her, and we have the best book chats. So I was like, Well, yeah, if you love this book, I want to talk to you about it. And it took me a while to get into it, but then once I did, I was like, Oh, this is a book about. The tally of complacency about the long, ranging impacts of oppression and white supremacy and the way it can kind of wind itself into all of us, even in ways we don't even know. And it is supposed to be this kind of steamy time jumping kind of spy thriller, but I really, really, really, really see it as a book as a well. I guess what I want to say is I really, really see it as a cautionary tale about the toll and the high, high high cost from generations, you know, seven behind and seven for, and how we want to think about it, but just through past, present and the future of not being self aware and being seduced by the power and promise of Empire, which is what I think happens to our main character, like she never really escapes that trap. No,

Traci Thomas 5:53

she does not. Okay, I will share my original thoughts, and then I want to just sort of dive right in. So I was very bored by this book. I was like, I thought it was very slow. I kept waiting for things to happen. I was just like, where is this going? I kept thinking, why does J Love this book,

J Wortham 6:14

right? I really enjoyed it well, but

Traci Thomas 6:17

why? Like, why did J want to pick this book? Like, why, you know, like, I kept thinking about the book in the context. Why is this book on Obama's list? Why, like all of these things, I felt like this was a book that had a really great idea, great topics for discussion, but I felt as an actual piece of writing, it fell very flat for me, like it was a little all over the place, that there were too many elements that I didn't feel like were fleshed out well, is it a romance? Is it a spy thriller? Is it actually doing both of those things? Is it doing neither of those things? I had a lot of that sort of like, what is the book trying to do, and what is the book actually doing? And so I felt very frustrated as a reader. And then when the things finally start to happen in the last like, 80 pages, I was so frustrated and bored that I was like, I don't care, sure, whatever, like, whatever you say, great, you're a della congratulations. Like, everybody wins. So I think so. I think I was, it was a very frustrating reading experience for me. After I finished the book, I reached out to a lot of different people who I know who read the book and loved it and asked them why they loved it so much. And those are a lot of the things that I actually had already taken notes that I wanted to talk about. So I do think that, like the ideas in the book were good, and my sense is a lot of people who liked the book liked what it made them think about, not necessarily what was actually written on the page, like they liked, what, what jumped off for them in the idea of the book more than like the actual characters or the actual plot lines and and before we I should have done this at the beginning, but I always forget before we actually dive, dive dived in the ministry of time. Let me give you a quick plot thing. For those of you who don't care about spoilers, this is a book about an unnamed narrator who works for the ministry of time, which is a which is a department of the government in the UK, and they bring back. They are attempting to bring back people from different time periods through time travel. And they each person that comes back, each time traveler, they call them expats. There's five in this book. Each expat is paired with a modern day person from the ministry. Our narrator is partnered with a guy named Graham Gore, who's an Arctic explorer who died in an Arctic expedition, but is brought back to the 21st century. I think we it's supposed to be modern. I think um, or like current and and they sort of then have to do things and be together. But that's sort of the premise. I just want to set it up. That's sort of the premise of the book. Um, okay, that being said, let's just start with the time travel. Sure, the conceit of the time travel. One of the rules of the book, though, collian Bradley tells us very specifically early in the book, don't worry about all the time travel stuff. But then at the end of the book, it's like, this is a detail about time travel you need to understand. And I was like, I wasn't worrying about any of this. Like I not. I don't know where we are, but the conceit is that they're dead already, so they, if they bring them back, it doesn't fuck up the future or the past or anything, because the P It's like the moment of the person's death, the time travelers come and pick them up.

J Wortham 9:31

But that's also I think that okay, here's what I want to say. I really hear you on the things about this book that are frustrating. And I hear you about the pacing, it worked for my brain. I think it took me a few tries to get into it. I don't, I don't exactly know. I would actually love if there was like, a, like a reading study, like a sleep study, I could do on my brain so I could figure out, like, why some books worked for me once, why some books don't like I haven't really been able to read all fours, like the pace. In the writing of the book, there are some parts of it I've really enjoyed, but, like, it doesn't work for me right now, so I'll come back to it. So it's like, it's just sometimes books work for my brain at certain times. And I think I was just really ready to read a book about the instability of what we think of as the present and what we think of as the future, because it feels so unstable. And I just, I don't think you can believe anything that the narrator tells us, like we we know that's not true. Like this entire book is about how all of these historical figures they get could change time. And Adela comes back in time. I mean, this is, I don't know if this is two layer. You can tell me if I need to explain this out more, but the main character is moving through one timeline with a boss who's actually traveled back in time, and it's another version of her to make sure that history plays out in the same way, except it doesn't at all, because the interaction that the main character has with Gore are very different from the ones that have already preceded her existence. So Right? I mean, there's, there's a character in the book called smellia, who I really, really wish we knew more about. I think I'm saying her name right, smella, smellia, and she's the main character's counterpart. So they're both what they call bridges. They're meant to manage these expats. They also call them refugees, which is like I thought, like, very cheeky Government speak for, like, permissible people, displaced people. I mean, I just thought the book had a funny sense of humor, and it's to me, okay, wait, let me. Let me sit down. I'll just save that point for another moment. Okay. But so anyway, so the this the main characters counterpart at work is a woman named Somalia, and they have a very kind of tense friendship. Smelly is a black woman, a black British woman. The main character is biracial. She's Cambodian in English, and she has a very complicated relationship to it. She thinks she's white passing. It's not really clear if she is, but that's how she perceives herself, and she doesn't really want to be aligned with her coworker. She's uncomfortable with her blackness, not because smelly is black, but because she's very much embedded in her racial identity in a way that the main character just doesn't want to be right? There are all these examples where she's like, angry because her sister writes an article about them enduring microaggressions growing up. She's just like, these things don't matter. When she meets the commander Gore, she's like, I was wired to love him, which I always read is like, I was wired to fall in love with this, like, vestigial remnant of, like, Empire and colonialism, even though she's like, critiquing him on it. And she's like, oh, you can't say negro. And like, this was actually, you know, you, like, you encountered enslaved people, and like, didn't do anything. And like, That's fucked up. And, you know, but she's, she's, like, politically aware, but she's not aware of how much she's a function of the system. But anyway, so Somalia's character gets radicalized also because other as the book evolves, you realize that many people are coming back through time, not just the ones that the government extracts, and all of their actions get influenced by what all these people from different moments in the past and the present the future are telling each other. So the books like history works this way, like, once these people are brought back in time, they cannot affect history anymore. And it's like, well, that's not true, because we find out immediately that the reason the expats are so important is because of the roles they play in the present to affect the future, and they need them to try to I mean, the government, you know, the main character, is telling us, well, the government is using this time door, which is how they kind of talk about it, to stop climate change. I keep saying that, well, they're trying to stop climate change. Well, they're trying to stop war. Well, they're trying. And it's like, Is any of that true? Like, if any of it just feels like watching the notes, or reading the notes from watching the highlights, or reading the notes from inauguration and just being like, Well, you say you're gonna do this, but like, what are you really gonna do? Like, she's just repeating party lines over and over again. So I think, I think for me, like, the first time I read the book, it was also destabilizing, and some of the language in the beginning is so overdone, and it's like, what's actually happening, and it is this romance, but like, what's actually going on, though? And I think, again, I just think you're really meant to see that this woman is like, missing the plot, like, like the book, and maybe it's also a dexterity thing, because I think this is a debut novel, and so maybe this is a skill that gets refined with time. I had patience for it, but I thought it was just a really deaf device, like the main character can actually see beyond herself and her own, like obsession and fantasy with like this Kate and Leopold fanfic she's having with this man, you know, and her, and she keeps being like, these things are above my pay grade. Pay grade. I'm getting paid too much to care about this stuff, and it's just all about her negligence, even though she's the daughter of a woman who whose people were horribly abused by dictators and a country with too much power, and then just, you know, abused by the country that she was displaced into. She still is kind of just like, well, the government's doing what the government does, you know, and it's, it's like, Babe, like, wake up sheep all like time to get up and get radicalized. But she. Never does. And I just, I think it's distracting, because the book focuses from her perspective on these things. But I think that's kind of the point.

Traci Thomas 15:07

Yeah, I think you're right. I think I think she can't see outside of herself enough to really be like, for my reading to be like, a good enough guide in this book that is, like, really complicated technically. So it just feels very destabilizing, because I'm like, wait, what's going on? Who's this? Like, wait, why are we talking about how hot Graham is right now? Like, are we trying to save the world? Girl, like, ew, and he smokes so much. Yeah, I know he sinks. Like, I this is, like, such a small thing. But like, I couldn't get into the romance part, because I was like, it smells there. It smells bad. He's smoking everywhere. Let me ask you this. I want to talk a little bit about what I am calling the sort of Hamilton effect in this book, because, based on the conversation I had with collian and also just my sense of reading of this book, we are supposed to root for the expats, right? We're supposed to like want them to get away safely, to get pull one over on the government. They are these displaced people like we're supposed to be cheering for them. But of course, in the context of this book, they're all white people from different historical eras in British colonial conquest and like major times of British Britishness, uh huh. And the two people who are, like the most against them, or like the most in control of them, are are two women of color, right? Like they're the ones that are like you need to do this, or you need to do that. You know, somelia ends up being our mole. She's sort of the bad guy in the context of keep Graham safe. And I find this to be really interesting, because it reminds me so much of Hamilton, where we are looking at black and brown bodies performing the characters of white men who historically, in actual fact, in history, were the people who enslaved the black, the ancestors of the black and brown men who are on the stage performing the show. And so it's this sort of like trick of colonialism, this book that like we're rooting for the bad guys. If the idea of the book is like colonizing people from a different time period or whatever is bad. We're still rooting for the white people in the story. We're not really rooting for our narrator at a certain point. We're sort of like, Girl, what are you doing? And we're definitely not rooting for Somalia, even though I think I was, I don't the hero of the book. She's the hero to me, but I don't know that. Like, if you're rooting for Graham, that you feel that way if you're rooting for the expats to like be safe, she is in that version of the book the bad guy. Yeah, no, I don't know if you have thoughts about that. That's

J Wortham 17:52

a real read. I mean, I didn't root for the expats, and so I'm just thinking about that. If my brain missed something, or I was really charmed by, you know, the kind of, like, Encino Man of it all in the middle part when, like, they're getting used to modern life. Like, yeah,

Traci Thomas 18:10

that was my favorite part of it's great. It's so fun. The three of them and, like, I the one expat I was rooting for is, of course, the one that dies, the soldier. Yeah, I liked him. I liked him. I liked Maggie too, right? But like so we are sort of rooting for these people.

J Wortham 18:26

Well, I guess I'm rooting for them because they, they all, I forget what Maggie's role is, but they all don't have the same point of origin, necessarily, like Graham and the other there's another commander who are both like commanding officers who did fucked up things in history to varying degrees. And I feel like Arthur and Maggie didn't I want to say that. I think one also has to read this book with the British sensibility. So I'm thinking about shows like what we do in the shadows, and Garth Moringa is dark place. And very much, like, if that rings a bell for anybody, but, like a very much Channel Four, like The IT Crowd, like a very kind of sardonic view of, like, government culture, right? So I think that's part of it. Like, I've had that in the back of my mind, like, this is sort of cheeky and it's funny and, like, it's kind of supposed to be very silly in some ways. I also think that what I was really struck by when I read it again was how Graham's character he it becomes he has the same experience as the as the people that he encounters in his life. Like, yes, he is a white, cis, as far as we know, relatively heterosexual. There's some implications that he's bisexual or pansexual in the book, but they don't use that language, because it's not his language. But he does imply about intimacies with other men, which is really lovely, but, you know, he is displaced, right? Like he's not allowed to travel, like they don't know that. Impact of time travel on him, it turns out, is really bad. For most people's bodies, they can't withstand it. So it's kind of a miracle that the four of them are pretty intact, you know, except for the when Arthur dies, but like, they are okay for the most part, but pretty much everyone else whose time traveling is not okay. So we don't know what actually happens to them, how deleterious it is over time, but I just was sort of struck by how, you know, he talks about his experiences of, like, taking a port and, like, what we would now consider the modern Middle East, or this expedition, these expeditions in the Arctic he's doing where he's trying to, like, find new routes. And like, you know, he's people are dying, and he has to deal with their families, and they're, they're, you know, the people are left behind, like he's encountering indigenous people in these places and they're dying. And, you know, he doesn't see that as the same vein as what's being done to him. But as the reader, I think you kind of do. So there's a little bit of, for me, there's a little bit of satisfaction about like, you know, he is valuable, but he is experiencing some version of what he's done to others, because, you know, they catch him in, like, the still net and, like, it hurts and he's not allowed to leave the house. And I don't know it's, it's pretty mild compared to what he is complacent to or witness to or adjacent to in his time. But I don't know, I kind of felt like it just felt like this reminder that, like, even the people in power are still subject to the whims, the colonial and empiristic whims, I don't know. I just Yeah, I hear what you mean, though. I

Traci Thomas 21:37

think you're right. Like that, that is one of the messages of the book. I guess my question, like, or my pushback to that is, well, then who is responsible if the people who are literally going out and colonizing places aren't responsible for it? Like, is it just the people at the top? Can we only blame the kings and queens? Or, like, no, grim,

J Wortham 21:57

is definitely responsible. I was not imprisoned. He isn't No, no. I mean, but like, but like,

Traci Thomas 22:01

the he's at the whims of, like someone above him, like that. There's always someone above you that, like you're at the whims of, even if you're complacent that, like, he's also, you know, like, the that sort of, that's sort of how I was reading it is, like, what she was saying was, like, Graham's actually a really nice guy, and he's doing the best he can, given his station in life and like that. This is, like, his job, and this is who he is. And my response to that is sort of like, okay, but like he did choose to be an Arctic explorer, like he did choose to be a literal colonizer, like his actual job is, like, to go out and be like, I stamp you in the name of Victoria or

J Wortham 22:37

whatever is not to be trusted, like she is not to be trusted. And I think she sees it that way, because that's how she views herself. I mean, I think, I think the book comes down to questions of personal responsibility and what you do with the information that you have. And I, you know, I watched the new season of severance last night, or the first episode of The New Seasons of severance last night. And I don't know if anybody's watching that or, you know, I don't want to get too far into a tangent, but the second season kicks off with these workers who have all agreed to have an implant in their in their mind that severs their memories of them when they're not at work. So they it's this really interesting show about like, Are you someone else, if you can't remember, like, this kind of waking life that you have? And at the end of the first season, they have a little bit of awakening. I won't spoil severance, because that's actually a show that I would have spoiled for me because I haven't seen it yet. Okay, yeah. But they have a little bit of an awakening around some of the ethical and moral dilemmas that come up with, like, when a big company is in control of your consciousness, in a sense, right? And the next season starts out with them sort of trying to figure out how to, I think, maybe, try to effectively press for change. And I do think there are some similar themes, right, like and this. These are the questions that so many of us can ask ourselves and need to be asking ourselves, and that we've been asking ourselves since watching the decimation of Palestine, watching Trump take office again for a second time. It's like, Are you really not culpable or capable of damage if you aren't, quote, doing anything wrong, or if you are, quote, a good person? And I think that we're all implicated. And I just like that the book, I'm sort of a time travel nerd. I don't mind when it doesn't make sense. Like, I kind of enjoy the like. And I, to me, it worked enough, I think that there were still some questions about place and time, you know. And I think the book is this, like, weird Mobius strip, because it's, it's, it's written a lot in the past tense, like, someone's really reflecting on their experiences and what they've kind of come to realize. And I think the book is a really regretful book about someone who really fucked up, really, really fucked up, and it's,

Traci Thomas 24:52

do you feel like she knows that she fucked up? Like, do you feel like that is clear that the main character feels that way? Because there's parts where it feels like. Like she dies. But there's also parts from you where she feels so confused about what's happening, really. And I'm like, Wait, do you feel bad? Are you still are you also trying to figure this out? Oh my God, there's

J Wortham 25:12

so many points in the book when everyone's just like you were not you are not smart, like they're just like you are such a disappointment. Like Adela keeps looking at her and being like, I knew when I was your age, I was naive, but I didn't know I was dumb to like, she's just like, and it's, it's also interesting, because one of the paradoxes that come up is that they actually aren't the same person. They're in different timelines. And so then I appreciate the book doesn't try to get into the like, multiverse, because I'm like, Marvel has made me so like, just like, saturated on that conversation. But, you know, they aren't the same person, and so it does sort of raise this, I think, place for possibility and optimism. That's like, well, the present is always changing. The future is always malleable, like you things are never set in stone, because even what this older woman has experienced in her timeline has now been altered 20 years later in this other timeline. So, you know anything is possible at any given moment, but I do, I mean, yeah, I don't think she really ever figures it out. That's why I think the book is actually a tragedy, and I think it's a cautionary tale, and I think, you know, it's, it's not a hopeful book necessarily. That's

Traci Thomas 26:16

okay. So I want to tell you this when I talk to Colleen Bradley, I asked her, What's one thing you hope people will keep in mind? And she was like, but it's a hopeful book.

J Wortham 26:26

Hopeful about what

Traci Thomas 26:30

she just said that it was like, hopeful and like to bring joy, I believe. I can't remember the exact answer, but that was, like the final word she left us on, basically, was it like this? In her mind, this is a hopeful book. I think for me, what's very interesting is that I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about what collian Bradley did as a writer, versus what I feel like is actually happening on the page, and the relationship with the actual story to my brain, like I felt like a lot of times I was thinking like, oh, the writer's doing this, versus, like, the book is doing this,

J Wortham 27:03

which was, Do you remember any examples? Like, you know, yes.

Traci Thomas 27:07

So like, I think the writer was writing about mixed race identity. And, like, wanted to talk about that, but I felt like what was actually on the page about mixed race identity was extremely boring and bland and, like, very flat to me. And I felt like I could feel the writer being like, I'm mixed race, so like, I want to explore this, but also not actually having anything super interesting to say about it. That's, like, the main one, because I'm mixed and so I'm always thinking, I'm always curious about how other mixed people, yeah, experience it, or, like, want to write about it. And I felt like some of that was, like, really flat for me. I think a lot of the like, romance stuff, I've definitely felt like, Oh, this is not our narrator, like, this is Kalyan. Because also part of the story of this book, of the backstory, which I knew before I even spoke to her, was that during COVID, she became obsessed with Graham Gore, and so this started as, like, fan fiction that she would write to her friends that she made who were into Arctic exploration, which I didn't know that was a thing you could be into, but I learned so much and that she would send this book, versions of this book, stories from this book to her Arctic explorer friends, oh, and so, Like, and she just had, like, a big crush on Graham Gore, and all of her friends had different Arctic explorers they were into. And so that part felt different to me in reading it before I so I read the book, I had flag notes, then I researched the book, then I spoke to her. So, like, there were moments in the book where I was like, this is weird. Like, why is she? Likes, his dimples. I'm like, this is like, such a, you know, like, it was just felt like slightly off to me. And so I think that that was also some of the struggle I had with the book. Was like, who's taught? Like, is this supposed to be the character? Is this the author? Like, yeah, I don't know. So that. So those two things definitely pop out to me. I also think, like, the like, Hamilton effect part for me, I could feel her hand in some of that. Or I felt like I felt like I could feel her and I can't say if that actually was like, I can't exactly say what it was, because I didn't ask her about that. But, yeah, but it just felt like it sort of helped me out of it a little

J Wortham 29:18

bit. Yeah, I think that all those critiques are extraordinarily valid. I mean, I just read with a lot less. If I'm reading for pleasure, I'm not. I have to say like I don't always have that that radar so attuned, because I feel like I have a lot of grace for first time novelists. I have a lot of grace for for fiction where the ideas are interesting to me. I just read Jacqueline halperns, I, who have never known men, and it's a book where, like, truly, nothing happens in that book. And I was riveted, like, I was like, You know what I mean, like, paging through it, like, what's gonna happen? And like, nothing ever happens. And it's like, I didn't care. I was like, great, you know? And it's, it's not, you know, it didn't really get it much about, like, gender. Or identity, or even that much about community. And I was just like, I don't care. Like, this book worked for me. I mean, I didn't love the book, but it really, it was great. Like, I really enjoyed reading it. But wait, okay, so I'm still thinking about this Hamilton effect, and I had this tab open in my brain from the moment you brought it up. And I think what I want to say is in the logic of this universe, and I do think we're in a little bit of the slightly near future, like, I think it's a little bit in the future. There are some hints that were a few years into the future, but

Traci Thomas 30:25

we know that. We know that some that Adela is, like, from 2040

J Wortham 30:31

Right, sure, right. And then the brigade and South

Speaker 1 30:35

2400s or 2200 200 Yeah. And they're

J Wortham 30:39

like, oh no. Shit has hit the fan. But even in adela's timeline, she's from 2040 she's just like, oh, this era is so decadent. And she's like, you guys, you're about to have your first resource war. You have no idea how bad it's gonna get. She's like, I didn't, I didn't remember it being this lush. But she's just like, Oh my God. Like, you have a so good you know, it's really interesting. She's like, food rationing is not fun, you know? Like, she's really giving this sense of how quickly shits about to hit the fan. But I feel like, okay, the logic of whatever the ministry is, they would go get all white people, and it's kind of implied that the two people that they decide to prioritize are the like people with the most military experience, and like the people who kind of take to the field work, and then the people that they discard are the queer people and the people who it's it's kind of chilling where they're like, well, they're like, yeah, they're not really like, you know, because they're they're finally in a time where they can express themselves and, like, enjoy the world and enjoy literature and film in any way. So I thought that was kind of interesting. But the logic of the ministry would be that we would have these women of color who are reminders of these war generals, essentially, and they would be men like, I just thought, I thought also the events were a little arbitrary. That was only thing for me, that kind of the logic that stuck my brain, which is, I was like, why these four people like, what like? And also, how do they figure out? Like, it's, it's not clear to me, like, how you set time on the time door, like, I just didn't realize it had that much control. Like, I thought was really interesting, but whatever. But I do think that I don't know, like I do the Hamilton effect is real, because I have a lot of complicated feelings about that production, which I had to wait for like, five years to talk about because people loved it so much. And I just, I'm not by Traci, like an outward hater, like I can be, but it's not my MO I'm like, Oh, everybody loves that thing. I'll wait, like, even Drake. I was like, I'm and I'm a Scorpios. I'm like, I'm willing to bide my time. Like, there will be a moment to talk about Drake, and when it comes, guests will be ready, but I was able to wait until, until now. I mean, maybe some of the discrepancies that you're feeling are also an indicator of the author who I don't know and haven't read any interviews with, or any I mean, I'll listen to the one that you all did, or did you record it? Or, yeah, okay, great. So listen, but maybe she's also a little complicated about her mixed race identity, and she doesn't know what she wants to say. I mean, I thought that you could really feel that, yeah, and how Somalia wasn't really fleshed out, like, I don't even have a mental picture of what she looks like, or what her voice is like, or anything about her. Like the descriptions of her weren't really that rich, which is always a tragedy when there's a black woman in a work of fiction, but, you know, and she doesn't really, but I also kind of chalk that up to, like the main character, not really being able to see her as a person, because she can't really even understand herself as a person, right,

Traci Thomas 33:35

right?

Unknown Speaker 33:36

But maybe that's too generous. I don't know.

Traci Thomas 33:38

I know you're such a generous I'm literally sitting here being like J is such a generous reader, but let's take a quick break and we'll come right back. Okay, we're back. I want to talk about this is like, maybe one of the most important sort of pieces of the book, story wise, if you're worried about timelines, which is the 911 Auschwitz, Hiroshima, turning on a dime changes the fate of of Graham, of our narrator, of Adela, of everything. So what happens in the book is that we find out that, like Adela, we've eventually, I think this actually comes after what I'm talking about, but we find out that Adela has come back in time to, like, fix things loosely, things are bad. She's come back to sort of like, sort it out. She's married to Graham. They have a child named Arthur, after the Arthur who died. She's talked she's she becomes the boss of Adela, unnamed Adela, youthful Adela. And as they're talking, they're talking about something that happened, and she's like, you know, I I told him about Auschwitz, or she's like, she's like, Oh, I told him about a thing. And she's like, oh, yeah, 911 she's like, No, I told him about Auschwitz. And she's like, Oh, okay. Then we find out later. That that will alter the path of Graham Gore, right? And he will become a different person, because 911 sort of militarized, radicalized him. And what we find out now is that Auschwitz sort of off the grid, like he wants to escape, go off the grid to Alaska. But we also are told that, that it could have been like, there's also a reference of like, Hiroshima is the other thing that could have been a turning point for him. And so my question to you is, one, what do you think Graham Gore becomes if she tells him about Hiroshima? And then two is, do you think that finding out about Auschwitz would actually have a huge different impact on Graham gore.

J Wortham 35:47

How believable is that? Well, my understanding is that, and also like the fact that Adela is like, wait not 911 and the main character still doesn't realize that adela's Traci time. I'm just like, listen, I live in the future. If someone comes to me and is like, time travel is possible, my first question is going to be, are you from the future? How

Traci Thomas 36:13

do you know? How do you make specifics? Is it you can

J Wortham 36:18

you take me back one hour in time to prove it. Like, prove it. I'm just like, where are the critical thinking skills here? Girly, but anyway, so there's so many moments like that, and I feel like Adele, like, there's the fight scene too. And Adele is like, show me what you've learned. I want to make sure you're like, your tactical skills are up to date. And she keeps, like, dropping all these hints, and she just, like, never gets it anyway. It's like, and Adelia just gets more and more, like, disappointed and like, punching her, because she's just sort of like, wake up.

Traci Thomas 36:42

But anyways, like you are the worst version of me, of me. How am I this?

J Wortham 36:47

I'm so embarrassed by myself. Um, okay, so my understanding of that interaction is that Graham Gore hears about 911 and he, you know, immediately starts working for the government. He's like, in this other timeline, and he's like, Oh my God, you know, I've that, you know? Like, I'm I'm really terrified. I want to protect people. Like, I believe in government. We've got to do it. He hears about World War Two, and he's like, no, like, how could the government let this go on? Like, I no longer believe in the vision and the force of ministry, like, or whatever, like, it just it, like, it really repels him. I think it's a really interesting idea, right? Like, I think that Graham is being asked, in a contemporary sense, to reckon with his actions in a completely different time. And I think part of it is meeting sommelier and being like, you're the descendant of these people that I encountered who were enslaved. There's a moment where he describes encountering a slave ship and being asked to count the people in the hold and taking note of their condition, understanding what's gonna happen to them, feeling really uncomfortable, but he does nothing, and he just, he just does the job he's there to do. And he's like, yeah, he's like, it's really, you know, something. And he and then after he meets Somalia, they all go out for drinks, and he spends some time with her, and he's like, you know, how do you think she would see me if she knew I had experienced this? You know? Like, he, it's like, there are these moments where he's really grappling with, like, the long standing legacy of the actions that, even if they're not his alone, that he takes part in. I mean, I think this book really would have really benefited from, like, a multiple narrative perspective, like, I think it would have been really fun. But throughout the book, there are these historical flashbacks where you kind of find out what happened with Graham's expedition, which I didn't really find that interesting. I found my heart skipping past so more I thought they were short. They were short, and at first I read them, but that was like, they're not actually providing any clues about his experience. And it would have been great to have, like, you know, been like doing a ride along with Maggie as she's having her like, you know, lesbian adventures in contemporary London. Or like Arthur and his longing, or just like Grant, like, what's he thinking about? So I do think it's possible, but I don't think the book earns it like I don't think they earn that explanation. I think what's more compelling to me is her betrayal of him. So at the end of the book, you know, shit starts going sideways. There's a mole in the company that's been leaking information. They think it's one person who gets assassinated. They find out it's smellia, and they're just like, shit is hitting the fan, basically. And the expats escape, and they they go to this tunnel that they've been scouting out. And she's like, I have to tell you something, that there are these trackers embedded in you. We need to get them out. And Graham is just looking at her like, you idiot again, like we're already in the hiding place. So like, yeah, what is taking them out now gonna do? So he agrees, they take them out, but then she further betrays them, and she calls them for reinforcements, and she's like, they're all here, because she's still like, you know, they'll be

Traci Thomas 39:55

some moment for me where I'm just like, Girl,

J Wortham 39:57

yeah, well, she's totally getting. You, yeah, she's still dumb.

Traci Thomas 40:01

I'm like, we need a slightly smarter protagonist so that I can go along with you. She was so dumb that I was like, Girl, stop, stop. Well, here's

J Wortham 40:10

my counter to that, though, which I'll get to in one moment, which is, which is okay, but in the moment when she the double betrayal of that moment of both not telling Graham about the tracker and then also giving up their coordinates. I think that is really the moment where he's like, none of you can be trusted, not my lover, not the government, like I can't believe anything. He's also been working more with the government. He's privy to stuff that even she may not know about. Yeah, and we find out from Adela that the gram and her timeline is also like, a more ruthless gram, and Adela, at the end of the book is like, burn it all down. Here are the pass codes. None of this is working just like, you know, like, abort, abort, abort, and abort. Because she even comes back to be like, I want to make sure things I don't. I just don't want my friends to get killed. Like, we're supposed to think Adela is this, like, wise and version, but she's actually there in a very self serving mission. She's like, I just don't want anybody else to want anybody else to die. And it's like, what? And sommeli is like, um, Sub Saharan Africa is underwater. You know, it's like, right future, Adela is still only concerned with her immediate world. So it does kind of track for me that, like, Graham has these series of awakenings that lead him to kind of completely abandon ship. But I will say this, I also recently read the book of the unnamed midwife, which I don't know if you've read, but it's like, it's like, I've been reading all this dystopian this dystopian book. I mean, this is also a dystopian book, but I've been reading all these futuristic dystopian novels for research for something else, and it's been really interesting to think about how people categorize and document fictionalized narratives of how we would respond to catastrophe, and for the most part, in my experience of reading a book like Station 11 or I have known men who have never known men the book of the unnamed midwife, all of the protagonists and narratives of those books are just like incredibly self sustaining, incredibly smart, incredibly wise. They make all the right decisions, which is why they're still here to tell the tale. And they kind of look upon people who don't make good decisions, and they kind of record their stories. And it's just like, to be honest, if things really go down, like, it's gonna be really hard to get it right, like, I probably won't make it, and I feel pretty prepared, but I probably won't make it, yeah, and I probably won't make the right decision. So So I think I also kind of appreciated that it's hard to prioritize the collective over the individual, and it comes up again again, the book.

Traci Thomas 42:35

That's why I was so taken. I read handmade The Handmaid's Tale for the first time last year, and I was so taken by that book, because I had seen the show at least the first season. I don't know, I always stop things after a little bit, so I saw some of the show. But what I was taken about in the book that I don't think gets talked about enough, is that Alfred the like main character, she is not a radical, she is not leading a resistance. She is taking butter for lotion like that's her resistance, right? She goes along with everything. And I find that to be a really compelling dystopian story. And I know people often compare Margaret Atwood and Octavia Butler and parable of the sower and The Handmaid's Tale, but what I find so interesting about both of them, and I think tracks in both of them is that this white woman in The Handmaid's Tale is very much going along to save herself, to hopefully make it out to tell the tale. And I think in Parable of the Sower, we have this young black girl who's like very idealistic, who is like this smart leader, and that that is refreshing for the reader, in a way that reading a white woman who just like goes along to get along is is very accurate in The Handmaid's Tale. And so I do appreciate sort of like, these different perspectives of like, how, how would you respond? Because everyone likes to think they would be a Lauren in the parable of the sower, but I think most of us would be an Alfred or a Adela or whatever, young, young, unnamed narrator. So I do I always appreciate when it's like a dystopian thing and the main character is actually just like, not a revolutionary, or, like, not the smartest person in the room, because I do think that that is often what happens, which sort of takes me back to this thing about, like, does learning about Auschwitz actually change Graham gore. And my thinking is like, okay, maybe, yes. But the other version, the more like realistic version, to me, is like, no, like, a lot of people were cool with what the Nazis did. Enough they were cool enough with it. A lot of Americans were. A lot of British people were, I think, you know, in retrospect, 80 years later, 90 years later, there's a different narrative. But what happened in the Holocaust happened because most people were like, Yeah, we're fine with it. So this idea that like Graham, who we know works for Empire, who we know follows along in the footsteps of the British government, would have this huge awakening. It would fund. Mentally change who he is and change the course of history. While that's a lovely idea, I also could see a version where he still works for the ministry, he still he still supports the government, like that's who he is through and through to his core. We see that's who he is in his original time. We see that's who he is in a Dallas timeline. And the idea that, like unnamed narrator, would change that, or that this one piece of information would change that so deeply is feels a little bit like a reach to me. Yeah, hearing you, but, but I understand it in the context of the book, but that is the thing I thought of of like, Oh, do we actually think, like we literally just had an Elon Musk doing a Bucha in 2024 on stage at the inaugurational address party, or whatever the fuck. So like this idea that now that everybody knows about the Nazis, they're gonna change who they are, just doesn't feel historical to me in any way, especially a straight ish, white guy who works for the government.

J Wortham 45:58

Yeah, and maybe that's maybe that's the hopeful part of the book, that time wise, that he could change. Because you're right. I mean, I think that there's more evidence to support your theory in the world that we're grounded in, that he might be completely disaffected, or he might be like, you know, he might come up with some excuse to justify it. But the notion that he is, he has the capacity for empathy and moral righteousness is maybe supposed to be hopeful. But if that's the case, then I do think the built the book kind of tilts into an interesting kind of white savior model that is not that helpful, like I would. I would much rather have Somalia, you know, I love her kind of partying speech when she's just like, there will be more and more and more of us. I mean, that's what I found to be hopeful in the book. It's like, yeah, that there is this kind of way in which people abandon the safety of the promises of government as security. And, you know, we are going through this moment as a it's a non partisan, I don't know, policy, or it's just like a non partisan awakening of how much we cannot trust our government, you know, and and that is just becoming so apparent. I mean, it's been for so many of us for so many years, but it's just becoming like a pretty universal thing, in a way that I find really interesting. And I think that's also true in the book, especially the British government, like, come on, yeah. But I

Traci Thomas 47:28

definitely find that ending for Somalia to be probably the most hopeful part of the book. That is fine, too. I also, like, I had so many questions about, like, what was going on in the future, because there's, like, so many people, when they talk about Adela, they're like, Do you know who she is like? And I'm like, is she Hitler? Like? How bad is she? I wanted to know who she had become. I so desperately wanted to go forward in time, because I so desperately. I wanted to know. I wanted to know what 2400s was like. I wanted to know what Adela was like. How bad was Graham, like, I just wanted more. I think overall, like, I know we're at the end of the conversation. Overall, my biggest takeaway is, like, there were so many things I wanted more information on in this, yeah, and I got too much of all the things I really didn't care. Yeah, like, I really didn't care about little cat and I really didn't care about, like, once the twist in the book happened, I was like, Okay, I'm now interested. I wish this came 200 pages ago, because I am interested in time travel, and I am interested in these ideas of like, what happens and who do we become given where we are now ish. And that was really, that was really fresh, frustrating for me. Of like, take me to Somalia. Like, let's go with her. Like, what does she know? What did the Brigadier and Celeste or whatever tell her? Her

J Wortham 48:47

that was the part. That was the part two at the end, I totally agree. Like, I wish the second part of the book had just been exploded into, like, 200 more pages and, like, lose a lot of the like, the Roman stuff didn't bother me, but I would have read another 200 pages just to understand, like, what is actually happening, because it's so condensed. And then you realize, like, Oh, wow. Like, it's not just Adela or whoever else Gore decides to send back in time that's got the capacity to change the future, like other people are using these tools and this technology to change the future, which is so fun. And I'm like, Okay, now, this is the thriller. This is the tenet of it all, which is a movie that many people hate, but I really enjoy. So I should have said at the beginning, that's very revealing for me as well. But, you know, yeah, so like, what did they tell her? And also, can they be trusted? Can anything be trusted? That's the question. Like, how do you know what you know? The last thing I'll say is that I wanted to come up with, like, a reading and watching list for this book, because it is I love, that I recognize that it is very controversial. People don't like it. And so I wanted to be like, in case you don't want to read this book, or DNA, if you didn't finish it. Here other books, I think, books and works of art and films and shows and, you know, albums that I think explore these themes. But that Britt Marlin movie, the sound of my voice, it just. Also about someone who comes back from the future, telling of climate change and catastrophe, and they want to enact these big, radical moves. And you know, this woman that's working with her is all of a sudden, like, Well, can I trust her? Like, how do I know that she's really my future? And it's so interesting because, like, What's the proof? Yeah, what is the proof? So, you know, and it's also a very seductive idea to think about, that we can change the future, that things aren't predetermined. And maybe that's also what I find kind of hopeful. But I just, I really, really, I think the thing for me I keep coming back to is this, just like the heartbreaking question at the center of this book, which is like, what would you do if you found out you were aiding and abetting a government organization that was going to take down the world? And also, what if all of us are doing that right now? Yeah, like, we all use Facebook. We, you know, we all use meta. We all use Amazon. We're eating and abetting Elon. We use X. Like, how do we think about that, and it's like, Well, I'm just posting. I'm just doing this. When you're Googling, you know, an AI response is coming up, and that's depriving the world. It's enabling these Pyro ecologies. I mean, we are all complacent. Now. What are we doing about it? I

Traci Thomas 51:15

and I think J, if the book did more of that, I would have loved it like I love all these ideas. I love all these questions. I do want to ask you. I want to end on this note. So this book was on Barack Obama's famous reading lists. It was on his summer list in 2024 and I want you to sort of just do a thought experiment. What do you think Barack Obama liked about this book?

J Wortham 51:45

Let me ask you a question, though. To start, do we think he really makes

Traci Thomas 51:49

lists? So I firmly believe that he reads the books on the lists, because I think it's such an unforced error to publicly post this like information that nobody actually asked you to do year after year if you're not reading them. Because, like, what if somebody comes up to and is like, so Adela and Ministry of time and you're like, what? Like, that would be such an embarrassing for no reason thing. So, oh, Biden doesn't

J Wortham 52:12

get embarrassed by that. He just smiles and laughs and moves on. Why

Traci Thomas 52:16

make the list if you're not gonna like, it's just like, no other presidents doing it. It's not like, Oh, this is a tradition of a book list from like George Washington. It's like, Obama was like, Hey, this is what I'm reading, and it picked up. So I do believe he reads them. I think he probably gets advice from other people. I think there's probably people like, you should read this, like, you don't have any romance on your list, like, add this in. But I think if he puts it on the list, he's at least read it and enjoyed it. I don't know. I'm just like, I was thinking, like, why would Obama like this book? And the one thing that I was thinking is like, he is hopeful that we will have re contextualized. We have the ability to re contextualize history, and, like, have generous readings of history, because he's done everything like that, it might like change his legacy, or like that, in 150 years of someone time traveled back to his time, like there might be a more generous reading of him, sure.

J Wortham 53:08

I mean, that's a very generous reading of maybe his like reading habits. I honestly, I feel like what he probably was drawn to, as well as the things you've mentioned, but I think he might have liked the dad jokes. There are a lot of dad jokes in the book, like when the main character introduces Graham to Spotify, and he's like, he's just like, mind blown, and then he hears one song, and then he's, she's like, should I play it again? And he's like, that would be disrespectful. And it's just like, so funny. And then there's another part, when he's like, talking about TV, and he's like, What are these horrendous dioramas of people doing wretched things? And she's like, No one's forcing you to watch East Enders, which is like a Traci show. And he's like, don't talk to me like that. You know, I just it's like, stupid. Like, I think I feel like that is the stuff Obama. I could see him laughing out loud at these little, like bantery jokes about an old guy who's, you know what I mean, again, it's like he probably grew up loving splash, or, you know, he probably watched frosty, or, like movies like that, about like a person who had to acclimate to modern times. He was like, lol. That's, that's what

Traci Thomas 54:19

I think I like it. I like it last, last, last, last, last one. What do you make of the title and the cover? Well, you know, there's

J Wortham 54:27

this whole controversy right now. I just googled and kind of read about it where there's like another, there's like a Spanish language book or show that's very similar. So I'm still, like, kind of parsing the way through that, because I do think people can have simultaneously really good ideas at the same you know what? I mean, that don't involve plagiarism. So I don't know exactly the details of it. It seems really unfortunate, but I thought that the the cover, I mean, it feels like it by the same person who did tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. It just gives the same sort of but. You know, it wouldn't have grabbed me, no, to be honest. Yeah, it doesn't feel indicative of the book. But I don't think book covers do that anymore, like they don't really tell you what the book's about anymore.

Traci Thomas 55:10

Yeah, I think that's true. Sometimes. I think for me, the title is quite grabby, the Ministry of time. I'm curious about that. I think that's a great title. I think the cover design is pretty lackluster to me. I mean, I think you can see the like, two or three different shadows of the same like. I think it's like, supposed to be giving us like, different parallel, whatever. But I don't think this cover does much to tell you what's in the book. And I think, you know, I think some covers really can and do. But I think some don't. I think that's just, like, designer stuff. It also

J Wortham 55:45

might work better in the UK, right? Because, like, if this book was called the Department of time, we might immediately be like, Oh, that's weird, you know? But like, minute, like, we don't call our branches of government, or, like, I don't know, we just don't call them Hawaii ministries. So it's, I think it's a little bit it was lost on me, I'll say. And then I got it. I was like, Okay, please. Traci, like, what was the book? What's the last book you read that you loved?

Traci Thomas 56:07

I loved the book. The fiction or non fiction? Well, I'd love to hear both. Okay, well, I loved James, I loved martyr. I loved colored television, by dancy Sena. I loved come and get it by Kylie Reed. These are all books from last year, non fiction. Last year, I just loved the Challenger, the book about the Challenger disaster, by Adam Higginbotham, the guy who wrote the midnight in Chernobyl that became the Chernobyl. Okay, he wrote a book about Challenger disaster. That was my favorite book I read last year. It's so good. It's very Patrick rad and kefi in and stuff. Okay, so those are all books I've loved recently, new books. Okay,

J Wortham 56:41

okay, that's helpful. Just why do you want to know? Because I do think that books like dishes like amaro like, you know, bitters like they they're really specific to a palette. So I think maybe I've never really done a book club before, but I do think it's really helpful to sort of get a sense of, like, here are the books that work for me. Here's the book that don't work for me, to see if that person's pick is gonna work for you. That's, that's my last thing, yeah, because I don't, I don't really recommend books to people because I'm just like, I don't think I know what you're gonna like unless I know the person very well or have very specific sense of what they want to read. I'm like, I don't know, because my brain is different. My brain is real weird. No, I

Traci Thomas 57:24

think that's right. I think book recommending books is definitely, like, a skill, and, like, it's hard to do, and you have to, like, really be able to understand the person that you're talking to. Yeah. And I think what's been fun for me about the show and the book club here is that I often let the guest sort of pick because I want them to be excited and want to talk about it, and I'll read anything I don't. The only rule I always tell people is it just has to be something you're willing to talk about critically, and you won't be like, it can't be your friend's book, because then you're gonna be defending it, and you're gonna be like, oh, and I'm gonna say it like this, and then you're gonna be like, well, they were trying to do Yeah, and I, I've had that happen. That's a rule that I had to put in place after a few different times, and that's really it, because it's my job to read, so I'll read anything. And I also think it like helps me to refine my palette, to know what I do and don't like but, but I do think it's different when it's not your job to read a new book every month and talk about it. But yeah, this is definitely outside of my comfort zone of reading, like time traveling, that even though I do, like, I did love Station 11, and I do, I did love

J Wortham 58:29

perfect book station I'm sorry, her perfect book, and I've read it and before or after has post. So we have to also acknowledge that,

Traci Thomas 58:39

yes, yeah, I read it before COVID, and so I had so many romantic feelings about it that I think are different now, like all the Shakespeare stuff, and like how they held on to shakes, like, I love Shakespeare so much, just like this, and like, there was, I can't remember the exact detail, yes, like about the toilet, like how they got The toilets to flush or something that I was just like, This is so good. But that book took me two or three starts to get into longer.

J Wortham 59:09

I was like, No, so that's book I've I've probably read at least 10 times now. I'm rereading it right now. That's read. I like. It is a book I'm like. The structure is incredible, the pacing, once you get into it, the pacing is incredible, the way that, like, like, um, Clark's character, who's one of the character, you know, he's one of the characters who's, like, living at the airport, the way he kind of imagines the end of the world. I mean, it's so poetic, like Miranda's full journey, which you kind of can do without Miranda's perspective, but it's so interesting. Yeah, yeah, that's a perfect book, in my opinion. So, yeah,

Traci Thomas 59:43

I think that's right. I think like, because I'm new to sci fi, future dystopian stuff, I really like it when it's really good, but if it's just mid it's very hard for me.

J Wortham 59:54

Well, I'm reading, I know we're over time, but I'll just say that I'm I'm reading a lot of dystopic. Novels right now, because I'm thinking a lot about survivalism, and I'm thinking a lot about how people prepare for the future and how we imagine the future. And I'm really interested in kind of, if we're obsessed with the Apocalypse, and like, in a way that prevents us from understanding that we're already in it, and that many people in current timelines are already experiencing apocalypse. Like, LA is experiencing apocalypse, right? I mean, I'm

Traci Thomas 1:00:24

here, I'm there, yeah, so I think that's right, you know what's funny, I am not a person who plans in this way. I've had so many people recently be like, Are we, are we moving countries? Like, what's the plan? I don't I don't have the plan. I don't know. I could never be a doomsday prepper. There's too many things you could possibly plan for. Like, I just, I don't have that impulse that peop some people have. I'm never like, Okay, if x happens, we do this. I'm just like, we'll cross that bridge when we get there, yeah,

J Wortham 1:01:01

but I don't probably a fine response, right? Like, you'll be ready.

Traci Thomas 1:01:04

Everyone else will have bought all the water and the toilet paper, and I will be drinking, like, days old, you know, milk, and I'll be wiping my butt with leaves. Like, I will not be ready for whatever apocalypse comes, because I just don't believe it's coming. I'm like, Yeah, well, I guess if it burns down, it burns down. And I don't know if that's like, cultural, my mother is Jewish, my father is a descendant of slaves. Like, I don't know if that's like, we've lived through sort of the worst, and we're still here, and so maybe, like, it's gonna be fine, and I've just been taught that. Or if it's like, a me thing, I don't know. But anytime people bring up, like, yeah, so do you have a like, my husband was like, oh, like, we should have a earthquake bag. I'm like, Okay, why don't you figure that out?

J Wortham 1:01:45

Yeah, but that's that's adaptive, and that's iterative. I mean, you you are preparing because, like, somebody in your household is, like, this experience we've gone through has made me realize we need the following things and like that. I think that's an appropriate way to respond, I think, and to each their own, like, I'm trying to figure out what kind of prepper I'm going to be. I'm going to be right now, but I think that kind of constantly preparing for an event that may or may not happen is also like a really stressful way to live. And I think it's also like a it's I don't know, so I don't You're right. There's no right way to do it, but, but I do think also your particular lineages also prepared you for adaptability. And like, well, we'll get there when we get there, because, you know, and so you there is some preparedness. It just might look different from someone else's. Yeah, there's like, an emotional and a spiritual preparedness, which is also really important. It's

Traci Thomas 1:02:35

important. It's important. I needed you to say that, as I'm living through the apocalypse and I have unpacked my go bag. I'm like the winds are picking up dreadful, dreadful time here. This was amazing. Thank you. Everybody listening. Make sure you listen to the end of today's episode to find out what our February book club pick will be, if you have not read Black futures yet, which is J's book with Kimberly Drews. It is an anthology. It is one of talk about a book I loved, one of the books that I heard so dear to my heart, I revisit sections and passages all the time. It is both beautifully written and also a gorgeous artifact. It's like a gorgeous thing that I love so much. I know that there's a paperback that is silver, but the hard cover that I have that is black with the silver black futures, it is one of my favorite looking things in my home. So if you have not read this book, people, I cannot stress enough that we can never be friends until you do. Okay, that's the bottom line. If you want to be friends, you've you have to read Black futures period the end, so you all can get that book wherever you get books. J, thank you so much for being here. This was a dream. I'll

J Wortham 1:03:49

come anytime. This was so fun. I love talking about books with you, because we have a fuller opposite taste, and it makes it really fun.

Traci Thomas 1:03:55

It's great. Except for we agree on Station 11, yeah, and everyone else, we will see you in the stacks.

All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you to J wordham for being our guest. And now it is time to announce our February 2025, book club pick. It is Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov. This book is one of the most famous and controversial novels of our time from one of the great writers of the 20th century. This 1955 novel tells the story of Humbert. Humbert and his obsession and victimization of a 12 year old girl, Dolores Hayes. We will be discussing this book on the podcast on Wednesday, February 26 Be sure to tune in next week to find out who our guest will be. If you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks to join the stacks back and you can check out my newsletter at tracithomas.substack.com. Make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, please, please, please leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media @thestackspod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and @thestackspod_ on Twitter, and you can check out our website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

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Ep. 355 Scrambling Queer History with Michael Waters