Ep. 348 I Will Always Be a Grief Enthusiast with Nora McInerny

Written By Megan Caballero

This week, we’re joined by Nora McInerny, author of Bad Vibes Only: (and Other Things I Bring to the Table) and host of Terrible, Thanks for Asking. In today’s episode, we discuss Nora’s approach to grief and why she rejects the label of “grief person.” She also shares the books about grief that have meant the most to her, as well as the genre that never fails to make her rage.

The Stacks Book Club pick for December is Tacky by Rax King. We will discuss the book on December 25th with Nora McInerny returning as our guest.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

To support The Stacks and find out more from this week’s sponsors, click here.

Connect with Nora: Instagram | Website | Substack
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The Stacks participates in affiliate programs. We receive a small commission when products are purchased through links on this website.

TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:09

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I am thrilled to welcome to the show. Nora McInerney. Nora is a best selling author and the host of the award winning podcast, terrible. Thanks for asking. Where she shares stories about grief, resilience and everything in between. She's the author of several books, including it's okay to laugh. Crying is cool too, and no happy endings and her latest bad vibes only today, Nora and I talk about what it's like to be a grief person, how she deals with others expectations, and what it's like to move on. In case you missed it, our book club pick for December is tacky love letters to the worst culture we have to offer by rax King. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, December 25 Yes, Christmas, with Nora McInerney. Everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. And if you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks. Pack. Also, it is the holiday season, and it's worth mentioning, you can now gift subscriptions to the stacks pack to other book lovers in your life. For just $5 a month, you or your recipient, will get to be part of the best bookish discord that has ever existed. You will get to listen to monthly bonus episodes. You will get to join monthly virtual book club meetups. You will get to vote for our literary award called the stackies. You will get to participate in the mega challenge. I am telling you it is just $5 a month, and you get so much good stuff. And you get to know that by joining the stacks pack, you make it possible for me to make this show every single week. Another perk, you get a shout out on the podcast. So shout out to our newest members, Paige, Jen shoot, Amber Larson and Rachel Patterson. Thank you all so so much. And for those of you listening at home who are like, I don't want all that stuff, but I do want to support the show. I've got something for you. You can get my newsletter directly to your inbox. All you have to do is go to Traci thomas.substack.com and click subscribe. One more thing you can do, and this one's totally free, is you can make sure you are subscribed to this podcast. You can share it with a friend. You can tell them about it in person. You could also rate the show and leave a review on Spotify and slash or Apple podcasts. All of those things also help. And again, are totally free. So thank you to everyone who helps make this show possible. And now it's time for my conversation with Nora McInerney. All

right, everybody. I'm so excited. I'm joined today by, I think, my newest best friend on the face of the earth, someone that I have so much in common with in the craziest, weirdest ways which we will talk about, a author, a podcaster, a person that you probably already know and love, the wonderful Nora McInerney, Nora, welcome to the stacks.

Nora McInerny 3:00

Oh. Thank you for having me. Thank you for saying my last name correctly. And I just want to say to all your former best friends, yes, you had your time. Yeah, you've had your time, and you go to this Goodbye forever.

Traci Thomas 3:11

I'll miss you sometimes, sort of likely not, yeah. Okay, Nora, tell the people a little bit about yourself. I know this is the worst part, but just in case, the worst part just look a little do a little bit yes,

Speaker 1 3:26

yes. I am the writer of funny books about sad things, and the creator of podcasts that kind of do the same. And my entire career as I know it right now, for the past decade, was the result of the most successful piece of writing that I will ever do, and it wasn't even my own project. It was a co write. My late husband. I never have said late husband. He's not fucking late. He's dead. My dead husband, my first husband, Aaron permort and I wrote his obituary together in 2014 when he was on hospice for brain cancer. The night he entered hospice, he really wanted to watch Game of Thrones. And I was like, will you help me with this? I was like, just in case, because, like, I don't want to do this on my own. And went viral, like, 2014 viral, Traci and it that's real viral too. Real viral. And you know what? It led people to my Tumblr that's very 2014, and you know what that led to a book deal? And that is the question that people always want to know about somebody else's career, which is like, how did you get there? The only route that works, fall in love, have them die, and then the whole time that they were dying, have a tumbler that is mostly password protected, because it's kind of like a journal for you and your family and then, and then just go from there, okay, then just be so depressed you can't go to work and sort of quit your job. But also, like, you know, they kind of wanted you to. Believe I don't know. So now I am. I'm the host of a podcast called terrible, thanks for asking, and a podcast called it's going to be okay. And I've written five books that are about life and grief and kind of everything in between. And I'm so sorry that my elevator pitch is like the Willy Wonka elevator.

Traci Thomas 5:22

No, it's great. It's great. I nailed it. I know you nailed it. You're from

Speaker 1 5:26

the Midwest, from Minneapolis, Minneapolis, Minnesota,

Traci Thomas 5:29

but now you're in Arizona.

Speaker 1 5:31

I'm in Phoenix, Arizona. I am an early early bird, early snow bird. So, and I moved here when I was 37 and it was the pandemic, and I went to a store Traci. I was wearing a mask, and the store laughing, but I'm already laughs You are right now. And I was like, oh, you know, I, you know, just moved here, and this girl goes, oh, did you retire? And I was like, I'm in a 32nd

Traci Thomas 5:59

myself. Do you need my ID? Do you want it? I

Speaker 1 6:01

was like, I yeah, I did. I was like, How old do you think I am? But when I was 22 anyone who was over, you know, 25 I was like, Are you dead?

Traci Thomas 6:12

Yeah, are you are you an elder? Do you need help? Are you okay? Are you lost? Yeah, um, okay, this is my big question for you. It's, I really have, like, one question for you, and I'm going to ask it in like seven different ways, but here's the first attempt. Yeah, do you get tired of being the grief person?

Speaker 1 6:30

Yeah, because I don't think I am, and I never tried to be, but

Traci Thomas 6:35

you are to so many people. You're the person where it's like, when someone's husband dies, or someone this dies or something. It's like, Oh, do you know Nora McInerney, like, you should listen to our podcast so you don't think you're a grief person.

Speaker 1 6:47

I don't. I don't think I'm a grief person. Necessarily. I've called myself like a reluctant like, you know, grief advocate. But and yet, Traci, everything I do always has a sprinkle of sadness to it. I can't help it. Were you

Traci Thomas 7:02

always, but you were not always, because I've read your books and you talk about how when you were young, you were like, nothing bad ever happens.

Speaker 1 7:09

Yeah. And I was also just like, had this thread of like, Dread running through me, like and and anxiety and depression. Like, I was like, a depressed little kid, too interesting, and nothing had happened, and yet I would, you know, I couldn't go to a sleepover, because then my family would die.

Traci Thomas 7:28

This was, obviously, this is one of the things we have in common. I'm like, I gotta get

Speaker 1 7:32

home. My whole family is I die. They are relying on me. If I'm not in that bed, it's curtains for all of them. It's curtains for all of them. And I don't, I never get sick of being it's hard to explain. It's like, I, I, I never get sick. It's, it's always like, I'm always relieved if somebody can find some comfort in those times, in anything I've done right, right? And like, I think anyone would be. I don't ever want to be just one thing. I never intended to be just one thing. I don't perceive myself that way, like we were saying earlier. It's like, I don't even, I don't even really, like, perceive myself as a mom, right? You know, people are like, Oh, we have in common, yeah? You know, like, Mom culture. I'm like, oh, oh, I mean, yeah, I have kids, you know. But I just, I guess, yeah, it's sort of, it's sort of kind of like a strange thing to me. And yet, you know, even when I try to do something that is like, purely, like, footloose and fancy free, I just, I keep going. I can always find, like, the little like, the hard stuff, yeah.

Traci Thomas 8:47

Do you feel like, okay, let me tell you why I would hate Yeah,

you, yeah. I mean,

I'd love to be you for a lot of reasons. But the thing that I think about when I, like, project myself on Yeah, is that I feel like people expect a certain thing from you and, like, certain feelings and behaviors from you, because many of us have followed you for such a long time and have, like, been part of or feel like we're part of your story because we were there when you were, like, deep in the throes of grief, and then, Like, when you met your new husband, and like, you know, so it's like, I could, I would feel stuck sometimes, if I were you, because I would feel there's like an expectation. Yeah, I How does I feel? Yeah, I

Speaker 1 9:34

was not planning on talking about all this too, but I think it's actually a great day to talk about it, and I that is one reason I put the podcast on hiatus in March. And by that I just was like, I cannot keep up with this grind. And a part of it is, you know, I've a lot of people have burned out working on my show. We, I don't know how, like in. Side podcast you want to get inside, you know. Let's start, you know, but it's like, as you as you may or may not know, as a listener, a bunch of VC money, a bunch of fake investment money, poured into the podcasting space around, let's say 20, I don't know, 1920, whatever. Who cares? And a lot of that was through advertising like direct to consumer brands, right where they're just pumping money, and it's all awareness campaigns, all of a sudden people are getting million dollar deals, $2 million deals, 10 million deals, 100 million dollar deals, to try to recoup some of that, or try to fill all the available ad space. Show should always be on. These deals happen. There aren't enough pillows in the world that you can sell to recoup $100 million I was in public radio at the time making this show, and even if you were not making that kind of money, you were sort of pressured into becoming a show that was weekly. We ended up making a show that was, you know, an HBA, an HBO level show, right? Like highly produced. We do the interview, we listen to it for hours, we we pull tape, we write a script, we craft a story. It's it's sound designed, and we went from a seasonal model like really in depth to always on with no change in right, in staff, right and when in audiences. And this isn't everybody, either. It's like, I'm not this is such a small percentage of the population, but when you start to get reviews or emails that are like this just isn't sad anymore. Like, what happened? It's like, what do you think happened? Capitalism happened. And also, I am just a person, and when I open up my inbox, and it's people who are just trauma dumping on me in a way that I didn't, didn't always consent to this stuff comes at me in like, you know, DMS on a Tuesday, and it'll be a horrifying photo that somebody sends me. And, oh, I didn't know where to put this, but, you know, like, my, you know, baby was just killed by my ex husband, and here's the photo of her and the NICU true story, something that happened to me. And, you know, I'm like, sitting there on the couch with my kids, like, or when the expectation like you mentioned, is like, oh, it better be sad, or it better be more traumatic. It better be it better be it, better be and if you really listen to the first season of my show, the first episodes really aren't about like, death and grief. It's like, about all kinds of things, you know, like, it's about all kinds of, you know, difficult or challenging life experiences and as my life has can as I've continued to live my life, you know, I can't stay in that space forever. Yeah, you know, yeah, I can't stay in that space forever. So I kind of hit the pause button, hoping to have time to think about what I really, really want to do, which is scary, because that's how I make money. And, you know, and now there, there's less of it, but, yeah, I that's, that's kind of how we got to where we are now, where I'm kind of in that liminal space, yeah, between things,

Traci Thomas 13:19

right? I mean something that I really like respect about you, and the thing that we have like in common is that, I mean, not all of this part what I respect about you is I feel like you're good at boundaries in a lot of ways, like I feel like you're really clear about, you know, who you're supposed to be for other people. The thing that we have in common is that we don't put our kids on the internet. You used to, but you don't anymore. And I never did when you're setting these boundaries, when you're taking a step back from the work, when you're when you're changing the path, what's going on for you is it, is it hard? Does it feel right? Do you know it's the right thing to do? Because that's where I struggle. Sometimes. I'm like, I feel like I should do this, and then I'm like, What about the money? Like, what about the Yeah,

Speaker 1 13:58

yeah, I would say that's such a good compliment. And I'm so excited to go to therapy and tell my therapist that somebody said that about me, because she's going to be so proud of it. She was obviously a huge part of that. And, you know, probably last winter, I was crying in her office, and I was like, I don't think I can do this, you know, like, I don't think I can do this. And she said, You got here. I've been waiting for you.

Traci Thomas 14:22

Yeah.

Speaker 1 14:23

I was like, Damn okay. I was like, oh, okay, okay. And I think that there is a natural terror to that. For a long time, I have been burned out, you know, in 2022 when I went on the bad vibes only tour, it was a combination book and podcast tour, and you know, the planning of that was largely me and my team, and it was 21 cities in 24 days, 11 live shows, and then the rest were like book events. And that is because, like many people who have ADHD. And perfectionism. I just had post its on a calendar. And when I saw blank days, I was like, I could do more. I could fill it in. I could fill that look at there's two spaces like, what am I gonna do on those two days? I don't know, live your life. And you know, even before I went on that tour, I was having a full mental breakdown in a hotel room in Las Vegas, head under the pillow, screaming while my poor friend Caroline moss like, had her headphones on and was working on her black friday content was like, she's like, What stop, give it down. You know, like hoping I would get hit by a car, put into like, a light coma four to six weeks. Nothing happens to my face or my spine. Maybe some appendages are injured, no internal just put into a twilight sleep. I wake up. No one's mad at me because I got hit by that car. So you can't be mad that the tour was canceled, you know, like, just don't be mad at me like that kind of fear is still there, right if I change, you know. And right now, we're only making the podcast for paid subscribers, and you know, we're we're coming back in the new year. I don't have a date for it, but we're coming back in a different way, you know, and in a way that I think is more reflective of where and how I am right now and the kinds of work that I want to do. Because, you know, I got a text from one of my beloved aunts yesterday, and she said, hey, you know, one of my husband's friends emailed you, and this horrible thing happened to him, and I'm wondering if you saw the email. And I was like, I did not see the email and let him know, I appreciate him reaching out, but I am not a trauma receptacle at this point in time,

Traci Thomas 16:53

I feel like so many authors who write memoirs have talked to me about this, yeah, about this, like when they go on their book tour and like the things that they talk about in their memoir. Then people come to the signing and are like, by the way, my dad, yeah? And I'm like, that's yes, just really, yeah, okay, I want to pivot off you being sad. Yes, you're welcome. This is called a favor, yeah? And I want to talk about all of us being sad, general, because, okay, this is the thing that I'm I love grief. I'm a grief enthusiast. I like to read about it. I like to think about it. You know, my dad died when I was, like, 25 and so I feel like it really informed how I think about, you know, when other people have lost or whatever. But yeah, thing that I've been thinking a lot about recently, not just because the election was last week, but even before that is like collective grief, or like communal grief, and you talk about, I can't I think it's in bad vibes, only you talk about everything is good and bad, yeah, and I feel like that's a hard one sometimes when we're in These moments of collective grief, because it's hard to admit that there's like, good and bad. So I wonder how you think again as like a person that people look to in these moments where they feel bad about, like, the broader collective grief stuff.

Speaker 1 18:15

Yeah, I also, if I can just go back to the first thing too. It's like, I will always, because I never want to sound like and I hate my fuck, you know, I just fucking don't want this. But it's like, I, like you said, I will always be a grief enthusiast, right? Like, there will, that will always be a part of me. One thing that I know I said it in my TED talk before I even truly lived it is like, Wait, did I say? I don't remember, but it's like, that will always be a part of me, right? But something I've told my kids about, you know, all of their different life experiences too, is like, sometimes that will be the headline and sometimes it will be a bullet and sometimes it will be a footnote. It's not my headline anymore. Is what I want to say. That is not my headline. It's always going to be a part of me. It's always going to be a thread through my work, but it is not my primary identity anymore, being a grief person, being a grief person, you know, like I think that there is, there's more to for me to experience, and there's more for me to talk about, And I built, like this little box for myself that really reflected what I needed at the time. And now it feels like it's time to kind of open that up and, like, widen the aperture. Okay, so everything being good and bad, what was that question? Sorry, I don't

Traci Thomas 19:36

know you actually want to talk about what you just said, because I feel like the other thing about grief is that, like, in the sense that everything is good and bad, is that it is in everything, yeah, yeah, right. Like, it's like, this idea. It's like, oh, this person is grieving currently for for the next six weeks. But it's like, no, it's just sort of like, sprinkled on every

Speaker 1 19:59

day, every like. Grieving people have to okay, this is crazy, Traci, but like, Saturday morning, I woke up, I got a text, and it was like, Oh, this woman, I went to college with her husband died in the middle of the night, and they were about to go to a big college football game. It was like, a big family thing, right? Like, she wakes up, he's dead. He's got to go off to the Morgan. She's like, calls me. She's like, I mean, I still want to go to the game. Like, what else am I going to do today? I was like, Girl, go to the game. Go to the game. Who cares? I was like, you've never done this before. Your family's never done it before. He's never died before. Like, go to the game. Also, there might be another whoop you in a in a stadium of 30,000 people. You have no idea how many people's husbands dropped

Traci Thomas 20:38

dead last night. You know, right? Like, find your new best friend. What

Speaker 1 20:41

else are you gonna do? Though? You know what I mean? Like, even when your world has fallen apart, the rest of the world is still spinning, and you still have to go to Nordstrom and say, I'm looking for a dress. And the person says, Is it a special occasion? And you're like, I don't know. It's my husband's funeral, you know? And you just get to watch them, right? You know? It is like you said, it's a part of everything, so.

Traci Thomas 21:00

But my question before was just about, like, collective grief, or, like, broader grief. Do you think about that stuff a lot? Do you feel like, do? I don't know. I think I do think about it a lot recently. But I'm just curious about because you're because you're Yeah,

Speaker 1 21:13

yeah. I mean, I mean, I think I think about that all the time. I thought about that when the pandemic started too that there were people who were so so disoriented by, you know, the solitude, or by you know, the suddenness, or by the loss of all of these experiences and people and states of being. And it felt very, very familiar to me as a widow, it really did. I was like, Oh yeah, so that life has disappeared, and now we're here, and now there's no floor and there's no ceiling, and somehow there's, like, one wall dangling from nowhere. It just felt, it felt really familiar. And I a lot of widows said the same thing, like, oh yeah, we've we've somehow, like, been here before, and we are so it's not just that we're, like, a grief, intolerant grief, illiterate culture, like we are a struggle, illiterate struggle, intolerant culture, like we just, America loves a winner. Like, that's what we like. We just, we love a winner. And if you are having a hard time with anything, it is always boing. Flip back to you, right? It's your head. Think different thoughts, like you know, right thought, right action, all of this sort of cultish language that we use to take responsibility off of institutions and put it right back on an individual which is not where it belongs. And that's why I try really, really, really hard to save my anger for aim it a little bit higher than the person who is in front of me, because I have more in common with that person. Our struggles are intertwined in a way that they are not if you just, like, Look up, look up 10 or 20 floors, like, that's our common enemy, okay,

Traci Thomas 23:16

okay, we're gonna take a quick break and then we'll be back. Okay. Okay, this is the part of the show where we actually talk about books. Okay, you're you're off the grief hot seat. You are now. Oh, you've got your I've got my worksheet questions ready, but I do have one surprise thing for you before we do it. So every month we take a question from a listener. They're asking for a book recommendation. I'm going to read to you what they said. Okay, you're going to come up with at least one book. Okay, up to three, I'm gonna do three. Okay, as I'm prepared, but you're being surprised. So here we go. This one is Oh, and it's called, we call this ask the stacks. If people at home want to have their book recommendations read on the air, you can email ask the stacks at the stacks podcast.com, okay, this comes from Aaliyah. Leah said I loved your Oh, this was not actually my last podcast, but she said I loved your podcast with Andrew Leland about his book, The country of the blind. I am reading the book right now, and I love it. I have heard you mention the idea of memoir, plus as a genre where there is a strong narrative arc of a memoir with strategic exploration of historical or informational context to deepen the narrative. I feel like invisible child, which I also loved, is another book that does this, though it isn't a memoir. It does follow a person's story. What other books do you love in the memoir, plus genre? I can go first. Okay,

Nora McInerny 24:36

thank you.

Traci Thomas 24:37

So the first one that comes to mind, which is more in line with invisible child is the book his name was George Floyd by Robert Samuels and Toulouse olnuripa. It is about George Floyd. That's his name, and it's really great. I I love the book. I knew it was going to win the Pulitzer Prize when I read it, because it reminded me so much of invisible child. So. Where they give George Floyd, sort of the presidential treatment. So they tell you his life story, but they go back and find out, like his ancestors who were enslaved, and they find out about the family who owned him, and they give you all this context on his life. I just think it's a really well done sort of biography, plus, if you will, the next one I have is actually an essay collection, and it does relate to disability, similarly to country of the blind. It's called How to tell when we will die by Johanna hedva. It's a collection of essays all about disability, pain work or care work. Pain kind of like the icky stuff like shit and piss, and also some of the like, fun, creative thinking of wrestling as being like the most, one of the most safe spaces, like for bodies, and the way that, like mosh pits take care of each other and stuff. And it's just really interesting thinking around disability. And I'm just a real big fan of Johanna head of his work, because they're really bad ass. And then the last one is my own country, by Abraham Verghese, who probably people know as the covenant of water guy. He used to be a doctor. He might still be, and when he immigrated to America in the 80s, and he was a doctor, and he was doing his residency in rural Tennessee, and he's an infectious disease specialist. And if you're following the dots around the late 80s and early 90s, that's aids time. And so he was this brown person from India in rural Tennessee, treating people for this mysterious disease, which turns out to be HIV AIDS. And it's his story about being there and like, how he's treated and dealing with, you know, heterosexual couples who are coming down with a gay plague from New York, and like trying to negotiate all of these stereotypes. And it's just really, really beautifully written. So those are, those would be my three. Yeah, did you come up with one?

Speaker 1 26:53

Okay, so my suggestion is, have you read bright sided by Barbara Aaron Reich, okay, one of my favorite writers. She wrote nickel and dimed, which was that experimental memoir where she, like, basically tried to live a minimum wage in like the 90s in three different cities, and discovered, duh, it's impossible, right? And I remember reading that when I was probably in college, and realizing she had done one of the experiments in Minneapolis where I grew up, and just thinking like, oh, oh, oh, okay, okay. So this is bright sided, how positive thinking is undermining America. She has this way of writing that feels like you are reading a magazine and having a conversation. This is about toxic positivity, I think before that phrase was even coined, or at least popularized, and starts with the story of her cancer diagnosis, and what is wrapped up in more toxic positivity and positive thinking, then cancer, right? And that chapter is called smile or die. And I loved this book when I first read it, when it first came out. This is probably, like the second or third copy that I've had. It is, she's such a good researcher. She pulls from so many sources, interviews, life experience. It's just a fantastic book that sounds

Traci Thomas 28:25

amazing. Okay, Leah, if you read any of these books, you have to let us know what you think. And now onward, two books you love, Nora and one book you hate.

Speaker 1 28:34

Oh, boy. Okay, I just want to start with a hate, but I don't want to. Okay, so first I'm going to start out by saying that I when I love a book, I love it so much, and the book that I am absolutely in love with this year is I cheerfully refuse by life, anger, life, anger. I will not rest until everybody has read his books. But specifically I cheerfully refuse, okay, it is in Odyssey and journey in a near future where billionaires have raped and plundered our world and now live on in space or on on on like the water. Specifically, his books tend to take place on Lake Superior in northern Minnesota, and the main character is pulled into this journey, the hero's journey he does not want to take. It feels so immediate and feels so current, and also feels like the past. At the same time, the world has lost all hope. And yet this man and the little girl on his that he finds on this, on his little boat, on an inland sea called Lake Superior, they persist. It is such a beautiful, beautiful book he has. He belongs. It's time. And it's timely. His use of language is so beautiful. I have bought that book so many times because I give it to people, and I say, give this back to me, and I forget who has it, and then I can't stand to not have the book in my home. That is how much I love that book, okay, okay, the second is the heart is a lonely Hunter by Carson McCullers, and I read it when I was so young. I was reading books that maybe were not like completely age appropriate for me, but as a sort of, like, weirdly depressive little child who, again, had not experienced anything particularly difficult, but, yeah, sort of like, was ready with that kind of like existential dread. I just loved her. She's, I want to say, like, Southern Gothic, but sometimes I'm dumb, and I don't know if that's like, quite the right way to like, describe it about books, actually, okay, good, good, good, good, same, same. I'd like, I'm like, Oh, I don't know was that a past participle couldn't tell you, couldn't tell you. Sorry. I

Traci Thomas 31:09

still don't know the three voices. I'm like, first. I'm like, first, it

Speaker 1 31:12

could be omniscient. Same, yeah. Also, who knows? I'm attempting to write fiction right now, and I'll google. Like, wait, what tense for book. What do I like? I'm like, I can't, is it now or is it? Did it already happen? I can't tell. I'll change my tenses all the time. But those are two books that I like have to have in my shelves at all times. A book I hate, just one. A book I hate, dude. I love a hate, hate men's self help, but I have a special hatred for Tim Ferriss in the four hour work week. Oh, the way that book wrapped its grubby little fingers around a generation of men celebrated scamming, essentially, right? Like, no one works a four hour work week. Okay, that's, that's not a thing. He essentially was like, just sell vitamins on the internet and drop ship them. Okay, wow. What? What a genius. What

Traci Thomas 32:12

an MLM,

Speaker 1 32:13

what an MLM. What in the MLM are you talking about? Right? And just sort of elevated him into this echelon of like thinkers when I've never read a more thoughtless book. Yeah, I just, I just think, anytime I see that somewhere, I think, what are you talking about? In that same vein, like you are a badass all, any book, hate, any book, actually, there's one more that I just like. It's like, I just, I hate. It's all. It all just feels like one giant grift, one giant grift. And all these people know each other, and they all promote each other, and they're all saying the same thing, which is, like, you can do it honestly. You probably can't. You probably can't. You probably can't. If this, this is a person writing a book who is in the right place at the right time, you probably you could make a podcast that is just as good as mine, if not better, without a giant machine behind you in the year 2024 you could not match the success I have had. You couldn't, and I couldn't either. I can't do it again. It's not happening again. I did it once, and that's it. And that's what people will never tell you about their success, is that they cannot replicate it. They can just sell the dream to you,

Traci Thomas 33:31

right? That's so good. Okay, you what kind of reader Are you? We didn't even talk about your book podcast that you had Yeah. You had one called Yeah, terrible reading, yes, yes. I

Speaker 1 33:43

because I love to talk about books, but I also just love to start things. Then I also just, you know, I like the 24 cities in 21 days, or 21 cities in 24 days. I'm just like, who's gonna do this? Like, when

Traci Thomas 33:54

am I gonna do that? Right? So I feel about my sub stack. I'm like, Yeah, I had this great idea. Now. I'm like, Who writes?

Speaker 1 34:00

Who's gonna do this? Me, I do this. Okay? I do this. I read. I won't say I read everything, but I am a eclectic reader. I don't pick, I don't read what books are about before I pick them up. I'm literally judging a book on a vibe, on a cover, on if, if I have heard, if I've seen, like, a if I've scrolled through and someone's like, here's what I liked about this book. I don't need to know the plot going in for a novel. I just go, I just go right in. I just go right in, and a little

Traci Thomas 34:32

bit like that. I mean, I sort of have to know because of my stupid job. But a lot of times someone will, like, pitch a book to me, and I'm like, if the first sentence sounds like something I could say, great, if it's a paragraph I just want to know like, Michelle is friends with Romi and they're going to the reunion. I'm like, great, done. Great. That's all. I mean, don't tell me more.

Speaker 1 34:51

Don't tell me more. I don't want to know more. So I do read. I read, I wouldn't say, like, a ton of non fiction. I don't love. Instructive, non fiction, yeah, I do like a blend of sort of, like history or this is a book that I paid like $30 for this book. There was an event at at for this, this book from Harvard press. Look how tiny this is. Oh, okay, private this book, privateers, how billionaires created a culture war and sold school vulture, same thing, school vouchers. There was an event with him at our local bookstore, and I couldn't make it, so I had to buy this book, like, online from Harvard press for $30 and so these are the kinds of like, non fiction books I like. Like, tell me a story, give tell me a story, while also giving me an education on a topic that I did not know I was about to be interested in.

Traci Thomas 35:44

Yes, I love, I mean, I love non fiction, so, but I do I love an academic book. Sometimes they can be really dry, but if they're well written, yes, I'm like, Yes. Teach me the ways of the world. How did we get here? Please answer yes. What's the last? Just like, really great book you've read.

Speaker 1 36:03

Okay, the last really, really great one, one where I was, I was talking out loud to myself as I read it, and like, being like, oh, like, by, I was by a pool, which is one of my favorite places to read, heat of summer here in Phoenix, Arizona, at a resort, which are the best time to go, as in the dead of summer, and I read slow dance by rainbow roll. Rawl,

Traci Thomas 36:27

I don't know this. I have very different book tastes. I'm loving this. I feel like I'm getting onto my list every

Speaker 1 36:32

every book she has written, like landline, Eleanor and Park. I think a lot of her books are somehow like cast into ya even though they're just really beautiful fiction. This is the it's a maybe, but it's like, I don't want to classify it as a romance, because it's not a trophy, got it cartoon character cover. I'm not slamming those. That's just not that that specifically is just not my vibe, you know, like, I don't, like, really need to, like, read people banging. I don't know just about it. I'm always like, okay,

Traci Thomas 37:07

lol, Sarah prude, I read that in her book. I really, so am I? Yeah, I'm like, but when I read romance, I only want the sex. Oh, I'm like, if I'm gonna read a romance, yeah, it's like, oh. And then they go in the bedroom and close the door. I'm like, No, bitch, How was her How was her heat feeling between her legs? Between her legs robbing.

Nora McInerny 37:28

She felt him grow hard against his G

Traci Thomas 37:30

so it's like, lol,

Speaker 1 37:34

it's okay. So this is the story of friends from high school, like that, really kind of intense friendship you can have with a person of either sex, by the way, where it's like it's so bordering on love, you cannot tell if it is or not. And then they're essentially their reunion. They go back to their high school reunion. It switches points of view, and it also switches time, but she sets it in a time before iPhones, which I really, really like. So they graduated in, like the 90s. The reunion is 2006 so it's there's so much longing. And it honestly made me long for the days of longing.

Traci Thomas 38:30

I love that because, yes, because, like, technology makes it so that it's a lot harder too. Yeah, long in the same way, like, you don't have to wait as much, no,

Speaker 1 38:39

you don't have to wait for an email, which was, you know, even that it was like, I remember waiting for letters, I remember waiting for emails. I remember, you know, like anticipation in a way that you just don't have in the same way now, because you really can have so much more access to a person and like, peek into their lives, even if you've lost touch. So it's just it was truly such a beautiful, beautiful read. Every time I finish one of her books, I'm like, She better be working on another one. Like, she better be at work right now. I've got no patience for Rainbow row, She better be I don't want to see her having fun. I don't want her engaging with friends and family. I want her at the computer tapping away, building me a new world. Now. Get

Traci Thomas 39:31

to work. Lady, get to work. What are you reading right now?

Speaker 1 39:35

Okay, I just finished a book last night called a better ending, which is non fiction, a memoir about this man whose sister died in night in the 1970s his younger sister, it was reported as a suicide. Her husband was a cop.

Traci Thomas 39:59

I. I know where this is going. Yeah, and

Speaker 1 40:01

he picks the story. He basically starts pursuing the story in the early 2000s and just published this book. Will publish, I think, in March. And I've got, I really, really did love this book. I It's, he's, he's very fair, he's very he's just like, he's obviously from a different generation. I think he's got to be, like, almost eight. Like, almost 80 years old now, and so it's kind of, it's almost like a family memoir too, but it's also just the story of really, really searching for the truth about a sibling when you know, again, he's like, digging into not only just like the past, but a past that is very easy to hide and to disappear because it's all on paper. Yeah, so, and now I just started all fours last night, which is, I'm the last person on Earth to read that one. I haven't read it. Okay, okay, okay, okay, yeah, honestly, I saw Miranda July live when my husband was dying, it was at, you know, at like the Walker Art Center in in Minneapolis, and she stood on stage for the first 10 minutes and just stared at the audience. And no, thank you. I was so angry. I was I was shaking with rage. I was shaking with rage. I was like, I'll give you something real. I left early, and I remember this man, like, grumbling, and I leaned over him, and I go, Well, my fucking husband's dying, and I hope he remembers that, because he was just being such an art snob about it, like, all right, you can't let her just leave. I was like, I'll fucking leave right now, dude, I'll leave. You think I'm gonna watch this doe eyed deer of a lady just stare at us. I paid 60 bucks for this or whatever. Who knows what I paid, but I was just like, You got to be joking. This is why people hate art. This is why. Okay, this is guess what. When 2016 happens, it's your fault. Everyone in this theater is at fault. Okay, I was I was not, I was not in my best space. So, so, but I really, she wrote this non fiction book. Nobody belongs here more than you. But I had loved, I had loved that book because I am odd in that same way. And then I was, it's like I just realized I've been holding a grudge against Miranda, July for getting on stage and staring at us. And then another part of the show is, like inviting people on stage, and like to pretend like they were in a marketplace. I don't know. I just was like, I

Traci Thomas 42:26

know, like art. I

Speaker 1 42:27

don't like this. I'm leaving, no so yes, that's I'm starting that. And then I am also, I'm really, I'm gonna give this book, I'm gonna give that book, like, 20 pages. And if I'm not into it, I'm out, because I have the new Elizabeth Strout book, and I would read anything by Elizabeth Strout. I want to live in her LL Bean catalog. World her. I really do. There's something about her. There is something about her.

Traci Thomas 42:58

I love this. Okay, do you have a favorite bookstore? I

Speaker 1 43:03

my favorite bookstore is whatever bookstore I'm in, but in the Twin Cities, it's sub Subtext A bookstore. It's this itty bitty bookstore in St Paul. I love them. I love the people there. It's cozy. It's not a place you they might have like one little couch or, like, a couple chairs or something. But it's really just like this little nook. It's like a little book nook. And if I'm on, if I'm in Minneapolis, it's majors, and Quinn, they have a great like, also selection, like rare old books. So my dad loved it there also. And in Phoenix, it's changing hands bookstore, but if I'm going to a new city, I will find a small bookstore, and I will, I will purchase books, because nothing fits in your suitcase more than several books.

Traci Thomas 43:58

That's exactly right. Well, I use them to push down all of my clothes that I didn't need to pass compression. I'm like, Oh, this is actually a useful tool. These books that I didn't need to buy

Speaker 1 44:08

compression. That's so smart, exactly, yeah. Well, I

Traci Thomas 44:12

am very smart, yeah. Obviously. What's the last book that made you cry?

Speaker 1 44:17

Oh, okay, it's, it is, ask not the true story of the Kennedys and the women they destroyed. Oh,

Traci Thomas 44:27

my God, I just added that book to my list yesterday. Oh,

Speaker 1 44:31

man, it is. It also I was, I was talking out loud to myself the whole time. I was like, oh boy, oh boy, oh boy, oh boy. So it filled me with rage. It I cried numerous times, but especially because I really did hold up. You know, Jackie Kennedy in my early widowhood, I was like, God is too bad Aaron didn't have. Jackie Kennedy there, right? Someone who could just hold it together, somebody who could, you know, look good, do the part keep, keep her sh, I T together. You know what? She didn't, she didn't guys, she didn't she, she really had a hard go of it. And so many women in that orbit did so justice for all of them. And oh, when you find out, when you find out what really happened.

Traci Thomas 45:26

Okay, I can't wait. Oh, my gosh. Okay, that like started today,

Speaker 1 45:36

when you find out how Mary Jo capec ni really died. You Ted Kennedy, it's not over. Yeah, it's not over, buddy. It's not over. Because, guess what? I am about to pull a Kim Kardashian, I'm going to law school it, or I'm going to be a lawyer. I'm going to declare myself a lawyer, and I will figure it out, and I will, I will find justice. And with oh, there's so many. It's a it's a rager that that book is a rager. Okay, I

Traci Thomas 46:06

might have to squeeze this in before the end of the you have to. I'm like, I'm in this phase right now where I'm, like, trying to squeeze in my last few reads of the year before I like, move on to 2025, yes, I always feel like I hear about a few books at the end of the year, when these lists start coming out, and I'm like, fuck, I gotta squeeze it in. Yeah, that one's happening. Okay. Are there any books that you're embarrassed about, like, loving? Oh,

Speaker 1 46:27

about loving? No, I literally you cannot shame me for liking a book or liking anything. Really, those days have kind of have passed for me. I like what I like, and I don't really need to to justify it. I I am embarrassed that I did listen to the secret on audiobook, and I was like, okay, yeah, this is making some good points. And really, you know, the secret was, you're you're depressed. Go see a therapist. That's the secret. That's the secret. You need an antidepressant. You need to break up with this boyfriend. You need to, it's, it's, it's not. You don't need to write things down in a journal. You literally are clinically depressed right now. That is what you are experiencing. Okay? It's, you didn't ask the universe for depression, you silly little creature. And I would listen to that book, walking to the subway station to go to a job that I hated made me depressed, and be like, Yeah, you know, I don't know what I'm asking the universe for, but I brought this on myself. I brought this on myself. That is one. But really, I just look back and I'm like, Oh, wait, you just didn't know. You just didn't know. Didn't know, you just didn't know. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 47:39

are there any books that you're embarrassed about never having read, some

Speaker 1 47:43

every when I see a list like the New York Times, like 100 books you have to read, and I find myself scrolling to check off one that I've read, and it's a long scroll. My mom, my mom, printed that list for me, and I was like, okay, okay, okay, okay. Four, four. I've got four of these. I've got four of these, yeah? Or there's books where I'm like, is this good, or did we all just kind of like, like, what's like, what's going on here? You know, like, there's, there's

Traci Thomas 48:16

a lot of those. Yeah, there's

Speaker 1 48:18

a lot of books like that where I'm like, what? That's how I felt for probably the first 400 pages of My Brilliant Friend,

Traci Thomas 48:26

I was like, read it. I

Nora McInerny 48:27

was like, What?

Traci Thomas 48:30

What, what? And did you come around to it? Did you at

Speaker 1 48:33

the end? I did what I really did, like about that book was it somehow captured that. And sometimes I think books in translation, too were like, wow, this is so genius. Oh my god. Oh my god. And it's like, I don't know. I think it's just just, it's just words describing a thing, but that's what taste is, too. It's just so interesting to me because there are books that I've loved that people find horrible, and they're books that other people have loved that I'm like, What are you talking about? But I did come I did come around to it, because there was something about the way that it captures like that, that that truly romantic love between young girls who, when you have a friend like that, when you are so young, it is a depth of love that no life partner is ever going to be able to top right, right, like they just know you see you get you and, like that sort of fascination too. Like when you're watching like another girl from afar, and you're like, do I am I in love with her? Or do I want to be her, I don't know, right? Like, that's, that's what that book did, just like, so beautifully. I feel like that's

Traci Thomas 49:46

sort of like our friendship love that no one could ever comprehend. And

Speaker 1 49:51

I, I hope, I hope people understand that,

Traci Thomas 49:55

yeah, if you don't go read My Brilliant Friend, because it was written about. Laura and I. It's the number one most important book ever written, according to The New York Times, was written on our friendship. So you're welcome. Elena Ferrante, whoever you are,

Speaker 1 50:09

whoever you are, and by the way, no one knows who that is. No

Traci Thomas 50:13

one knows who that is. And honestly, I never want to find out. I don't. It would be such a horrible, horrible moment in history, if some fucking journalist goes stick in their nose in Elena ferrantes business, and we have to find out that it's some fucking man in Chicago who could speak Italian or whatever the fuck writing about young

Speaker 1 50:36

girls, you're a journalist, shut up. Okay, there's

Traci Thomas 50:41

other work to be done.

Speaker 1 50:42

There's other go, rip the lid off, literally anything else. But if I find out that someone is trying to, you know, solve this mystery, I will disapprove, and you will have to live. I will find you. Yeah, I will find you. And I will say, I will say, Stop, don't I will delete your hard drive. Okay, yeah, so when I figure out how to do that,

Nora McInerny 51:03

oh, I

will. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 51:07

do you have any like, favorite books that you were assigned in school?

Nora McInerny 51:14

Oh,

Speaker 1 51:18

there are so many. I had really, really, really good English teachers. Oh, you did. I did. I just the best English teachers. And, I mean, in high school, maybe it was like ninth grade English, we read things fall apart by Chinua Achebe. And I just remember, like, and then somebody told me that was, like, controversial. And I was like, what? And, and we read, we read like, Invisible Man in in like, ninth grade English. And we read Catcher in the Rye, which, you know, I know some people really, really hate that book, and I'm like, oh, that book was like. I was like, Oh, but I still didn't like, I didn't pick up on, like, Oh, this is like, a depressed person. Yeah, and I don't even really, I don't remember even anything about the plot of that book, other than just feeling like, oh, like, this is how I feel inside sometimes, you know,

Traci Thomas 52:15

yeah, okay, if you could assign, like, if you were a high school teacher, English teacher, what's a book you would assign to your students?

Speaker 1 52:23

Oh god, I would assign that. I would assign them, like, more memoir. Because, and I wish, and I've read that like that was one of the, this was one of the ones that I just wrote question mark on. When you sent me these in advance, I was like, dreading this one, because I'm like, oh God, oh God, but I wish that I had read more memoir when I was younger, because I and more like small, ordinary memoir, because I didn't know that you could, just like, write a book about your life unless it was something like, truly, like remarkable and spectacular. And there are so many, like, my favorite memoirs are ones where it's just like, just like a regular person's life, you know, right?

Traci Thomas 53:11

Yeah, no, totally, yeah. I mean, yes. Okay, I have two more. One is, what are some of your favorite books about grief?

Speaker 1 53:21

Oh, okay. I love, I love Pema Chodron and there and, and I, when I was in grief, there's not a single grief book that I would have read there just wasn't, you know, I'm like, sorry, I'm already there. I don't need this right now. But after, like, you know, sort of like the abject, the the the acute part of grief. I found a lot of comfort in when, when things fall apart. By Pema Chodron, and it's not even necessarily about it's not about death, right? It is about change. And what I like about her writing is it doesn't feel sanctimonious, because she is just like a regular lady who became like a Buddhist monk, and the pettiness is on the page, like she talks about her husband leaving her and her just like throwing rocks at him, like just pelting him with rocks, you know? And I'm like, Yeah, that's that's how I want, that's how I want my wisdom. That's who I want my wisdom from, right? Is a person who, when confronted with the end of her marriage, would pick up a rock and hurl it at a man. That's who I want my wisdom from. And I really love the book grief strike by Jason Roeder, he wrote the onion headline, no way to prevent this. Says only country where this happens. He's so funny. And he wrote this, like, satirical grief book after his mom died. And I read it on a plane and I had church giggles, like, just like, like, trying not to. Which just makes it worse. Yes, it was so funny. It's so absurd and witty and clever, and I just loved it. And, okay, oh god. Also, there's this book. It's a memoir. This is memoir plus, oh my god, it's all coming full circle.

Traci Thomas 55:19

It's okay, Leah, this is for you. Listen up. It's called, Did

Speaker 1 55:21

I ever tell you? It's this, it's it's a memoir of this woman whose mom died when she was a kid, and who left her letters for her to read throughout her life. It's like it's a weeper, but it's really, it's just beautiful. It's so good. It's so good. Okay,

Traci Thomas 55:44

wow, okay, last one, if you could require the current, current President of the United States, Joseph Robinette Biden, to read one book, what would it be?

Nora McInerny 55:55

I I'm not confident that he could, he could do that right now.

Traci Thomas 56:06

I'm so sad that this question has to go back to Trump. When I started the podcast, it was Trump, and I used to go, oh, nine answers. And I was so happy on the night of the election turn to my husband, and I know like I don't want, I can't believe I have to ask this about Trump. And he goes, Well, you could just stop asking the question. I said, I will not let that man change my show. Don't,

Speaker 1 56:27

don't. Okay. I will Okay. Actually, I would have him read. Ask not because I want to. I want to hear because he knows some of these people.

Traci Thomas 56:36

He knows some of them, him and Teddy were him, and Teddy were a great friend. Yeah,

Speaker 1 56:40

I want him to read that book, and I want to watch him do it.

Traci Thomas 56:43

That's such a good answer. Okay, party people, we're done. We've been droning on. Unfortunately for you, Nora is back at the end of the month. Two bad guys, yeah, and we are gonna do book club. And what's hilarious about this is we actually haven't picked the book club pick while we're recording, so we're gonna do that after and you'll know it when you hear this episode, but we don't know it right now, so don't know it. We don't know it, but I will link to all of Nora's books and where you can find her and her shows and everything in the show notes, Nora my best friend. Thank you so much for doing this.

Speaker 1 57:20

Oh my god, I'm gonna text you right after this so we can talk some more shit too.

Traci Thomas 57:24

Literally, can't wait.

Everyone else, we will see you in the stacks. Bye. All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Nora McInerney for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Pete Forrester for making this episode possible. Don't forget the stacks book club pick for December is tacky love letters to the worst culture we have to offer by racks King. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, December 25 with Nora McInerney. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack and check out my substack at tracithomas.substack.com. make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media@thestackspod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and @thestackspod_ on Twitter, and you can check out our website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

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