Ep. 331 Imagination, Creativity, and Play with Jay Ellis

Written By Megan Caballero
Ep. 331 Imagination, Creativity, and Play with Jay Ellis.jpg

Jay Ellis, star of HBO's Insecure, joins The Stacks to discuss his new memoir, Did Everyone Have an Imaginary Friend (or Just Me)?: Adventures in Boyhood. We talk about how this book came to be, where Jay’s imaginary friend came from and the purpose he served in his life. We also consider productivity versus creativity, and the books that made Jay fall in love with reading.

The Stacks Book Club pick for August is Master Slave Husband Wife: An Epic Journey from Slavery to Freedom by Ilyon Woo. We will discuss the book on August 28th with Jay Ellis.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:09

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Traci Thomas, and today we welcome Jay Ellis to The Stacks. Yes, that Jay Ellis - Lawrence from Insecure. Jay has just released a hilarious memoir called Did Everyone Have an Imaginary Friend (or Just Me?): Adventures in Boyhood, The book is a delightful and very personal telling of the story of a colorful and magnetic imaginary best friend named Mikey from Jay's childhood. The book is an interesting story about growth, disappointment and constant reinvention. Today, Jay and I talk about how he became an actor, the psychology behind imaginary friends and the many books that made Jay who he is. Jay will be back on August 28th for this month's book club conversation around Master Slave Husband Wife by Ilyon Woo. It is a Pulitzer Prize winning work of nonfiction about an enslaved couple's daring escape to the North in 1848. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of The Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. All right, now it is time for my conversation with Jay Ellis.

All right, everybody, this is a real exciting one. Today, I am joined by actor and now author, hello, Jay Ellis. His brand new debut book is called, Did Everyone Have an Imaginary Friend (or Just Me?). Jay, welcome to The Stacks.

Jay Ellis 3:07

Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's crazy hearing 'author' anywhere near my name, to be quite honest with you, it's wild.

Traci Thomas 3:16

Yeah, I guess, let's start there. People know you as an actor. They know you from Insecure, I think is probably, like the number one thing, but they also might know you from Top Gun, you've been in a ton of things, but I feel like your marquee billing is Insecure. However, I read the book cover to cover. So cute. You were a reader your whole life!

Jay Ellis 3:37

Thank you. Yeah, I don't know that I started out like wanting to be a reader, necessarily. When I was a kid, my mom would make me do book reports every summer, like it was her way of like, keeping me in line and making sure that I was, you know, reading and learning but also not just like playing and being derelict all summer long. So she would send me- I would usually spend the summers with my grandparents. My parents were super young, and childcare was expensive. So they would send me to my grandparents. And they would always my mom would send me with this, this, I don't even it's not it's far more than a trilogy. It's like a collection, a very large collection, of books called Black Achievements in America. An anthology, but it's like, so one book was like WB Dubois, another book was like Lena Horne, another book is Booker T Washington. Another one is George Washington Carver, so like, the list just went on and on. And so every summer she would send me away. It started out with one book, because I was young enough that one book was a struggle to like, read and then get through a book report, and then she would send me with multiple books as I got a little bit older. But what I realized in all of that is like that, is when I fell in love with books like I found myself it fully worked. My mom was the GOAT. I found myself just falling in love with these stories and falling in love with like possibility and what could be, and, you know, on days when it was like 100 degrees and like 90% humidity, like I didn't want to be outside so I could be in a corner reading, and I was perfectly fine. And that's where my love for books started.

Traci Thomas 5:13

Did you think when you were younger that you would write a book like, Was that something you wanted to do, even if you didn't necessarily think that you would?

Jay Ellis 5:21

No, not at all. No, never. I don't think it ever crossed my mind, like books to me were like, I mean, I think at a certain age, books feel educational until you experience books in a different way, right? And experience reading and story in a different way. And then I think when I got to that point of my life, it was just escape. Like there was some still education. There were things that I was still learning. I still read a ton of, like, I read a lot of self help books, because I feel like I'm always trying to soak up stuff from people, but, like, but I read to kind of escape for a little bit and just take my 30 minutes or hour, or however long I can dedicate in a day, or, you know, whatever given time I have to, like, just be in a full, like, a totally different world.

Traci Thomas 6:05

So how did we get this book? What happened that was, like, you know, what, I am gonna write a book. I'm gonna write my, like, childhood memoir.

Jay Ellis 6:14

Yeah, I was in the we were in the pandemic. We were all in the pandemic together. And, you know, as an actor, we couldn't go to work. We couldn't figure out how to get on set yet, and the protocols weren't put in place. And so for the first time in my career, in a really long time, at that point in probably like 11 or 12 years, I found myself with free time. I'm so used to just going from one project to the next and then promoting it into the next. And it was the first time where I had an amount of time that I could dedicate to something to to that wasn't just work. And so I found myself- like, I burned bread like everybody. I downloaded Duolingo, like everybody. I listened to a bunch of podcasts and watched movies, I read books, I did all the things. And then I just found myself wanting more. And my parents live here in LA. They live in Inglewood, and I was down at my parents' house, and my mom is like the keeper of records in our family, like she has all the pictures from both sides of the family. She's got all the stories. And I was flipping through all these pictures of my childhood, and with each picture, a new memory would come back. And I would ask my mom, like, oh, when do we take this? Where do we live here? What happened here? And then she would tell me a story, and then I would remember another part of that same story. Then my dad would chime in, and then I found myself just reliving so many of these moments from my childhood that really in a lot of ways, they shaped who I am today. And inside a lot of those moments was my imaginary friend, Mikey, my childhood imaginary friend who I'm an only child. I moved around a bunch. I went to 12 schools in 13 years, from kindergarten through my senior year, and so I was constantly the new kid, and each time, getting ripped out of a situation and then dumped into another situation, I needed my own coping mechanism to help me make sense and process the world around me. And it was also a chaotic time. Like the 80s and the 90s were a very chaotic time, and the messaging that was being sent to young boys, to young women, to kids of color, like it was just so inundating and so non stop that my overactive corn syrup fueled mind created an imaginary friend.

Traci Thomas 8:22

Yes, so Mikey is- He's not the main character. You're the main character, but he is definitely the main side thing. He is your guy. And what I loved about the book, especially, like in that first essay, where you talk about, kind of set it up for us. You talk a little bit about some like, research that's gone into imaginary friends, and, like, the kind of people that have imaginary friends, and what kinds of imaginary friends kids come up with. And I thought it was so fascinating that it talks about how a lot of, like, little kids have really super, super imaginary friends. It'll be a superhero, or, like, a magical unicorn who can, like, you know, shoot rainbow Fruit Loops out of its butt. But your imaginary friend is, like the most regular kid, super regular. His name is Mikey, which like in the 80s and 90s, Michael Jordan, Michael Tyson, Michael Jackson. It's like the most regular name. He has no superpowers, none. He's not even particularly wise are helpful. So I'm like wondering, why do you think that you young Wendell slash, J wanted a Mikey and not Superman or whatever?

Jay Ellis 9:36

No, I think you know you're right. I did a bunch of research and and to your point, you find out that almost 68% of kids have an imaginary friend. And that could that broader definition is like if you put a personality into a pillow or to a doll or to a GI Joe, or if you're like me and you man, if you see someone in front of you who's an imaginary friend that's not there like that is also in that definition. And I think for me, I just wanted a big brother growing up. I think I really wanted someone, and I talk about this a little bit in the book too, like I wanted mentorship at a certain point in my life, and role models. And I think I just always wanted someone who was a little bit older than me that would put me under the wing and be like, I got you. Like, don't worry about it. This is what we're gonna do, good or bad, just somebody to feel like I was going through the experience of life with them, and maybe slightly under their tutelage, but like still like going through this with them, and so I didn't feel so alone. Or, I think the other piece was like, you know, superheroes only very recently looked like me, right? Like superheroes only really in the last 10 to 15 years, and still very few of them have looked like me. So I think also like dreaming of a superhero in any way. I don't know if it would have felt real to my experience. I think I wanted somebody who would walk through the streets of Sacramento or Stockton or Youngstown or Tulsa or Tampa, whatever city I was in, I wanted somebody who was like, as grounded as an imaginary friend could be. I wanted somebody who was in my real world with me, who could help me process it and make sense of it.

Traci Thomas 11:12

Okay, so as a kid you are in the book, you talk about how imaginary friends kind of fill this space between the self consciousness and this freedom, and, you know, I think like to elaborate more, like also the awkwardness in our bodies, and just like the feeling of uncertainty, and especially if you're an only child, like not having someone your age to bounce things off of. So I'm wondering now- Mikey's not around anymore?

Jay Ellis 11:39

Mikey's not around anymore.

Traci Thomas 11:40

Allegedly, but we can't prove it. We can't prove it. But what do you think fills that space for you now between that self consciousness and the freedom? Because I don't think that that necessarily goes away when you become an adult.

Jay Ellis 11:54

Yeah, it's interesting. I feel like this book was so much of that expiration for me. I feel like I didn't realize, you know, when I started to think about imaginary friends and the purpose that they feel in someone's life, that's really kind of how I set up the book, right? Like I Why did I have an imaginary friend? And my hope is that through all these stories, like the reader will understand why and where it comes from, and what the usefulness of an imaginary friend is, and really that usefulness that I find that the most basic morsel of that is really just like imagination, creativity and play. And I think as adults, right somewhere probably between like 10, eight years old and 12 years old, you start to lose innocence, and the world becomes very different. And we're told that, like imagination, creativity and play are not important. Don't matter. You don't have time for them. Keep it moving. You got to pay bills, you got to raise kids, you got to stay safe, you got to do all these things. And those are all very true. But I also think when we're kids, your imagination gives you what you need. It fills a space for you that you need, right? And in my case, it was processing the world around me. In someone else's case, it may be something completely different, but I think as we get to adults, we lose that. We lose what that is for us, right? I think that's why we find ourselves struggling or unhappy at times, even if you have things where you're like, I got my career, but something still just isn't right. I think it's because we're still missing imagination, creativity and play like we are still supposed to have those things in our life. They're healthy. They're healing. They help us with stress. They help you break mental blocks and whatever your work may, your work life may be, they help you connect with kids and children and other people in different ways. And I just think that when I think of that space that you're that you asked about, I think that's the thing that we're kind of missing now. We all have a persona, and we all wear a mask, whether we realize it or not, like we all do, and it may be there to protect you. It may be there to create something as an illusion that you want people to see of the person you are. It could serve many different purposes, but we all have it in some way. And I think the thing that we're forgetting often is like, how do we nurture ourselves? How do we heal ourselves? How do we create happiness and joy inside ourselves. I don't think it's having an imaginary friend as an adult, but I do think it's like a paint and sip or playing a piano, or maybe it is learning a language. Maybe it is, you know, going on a walk, maybe it's doing a podcast, reading a book, writing a book. There's so many different things. I think that that can be that outlet.

Traci Thomas 14:39

I think it's interesting, because you're a lot of the things you're mentioning are, like, creative things that, of course, require imagination. But I do think like imagination for imagination's sake, like, just to, like, think about what could be like, what if, what happens? I think that is especially like dead for adults, because I think some of adults know, like, I feel good when I create. I like to draw, I like to paint. I like, you know, like, I like to play the piano. But that's different. Creativity is different in a lot of ways than just, like, pure imagination. And as you're thinking that I'm sitting here being like, When are times that I imagine and not we don't I don't want to get into this, but I do think one of the things that why people like politics is because they get to imagine what happens if this? What happens if that in a way that we don't get to imagine in other parts of our lives, sort of like free we're allowed to, like, imagine what could happen if this happens with others, right? Like communal imagination. I don't know that just like, popped in my head. I'm trying to think of other places we imagine as adults.

Jay Ellis 15:46

No, but you're right. I think it's also like, just imagining a different circumstance than the one you live in, yeah, like even the most basic, even that, like what's possible to your point, or imagining what another city looks like, or another country feels like, or another like, there's another person's experience. I think that ability to let your mind wonder and have freedom is something that we lose, and we lose it for a very real reason, like, life is very serious. We all have responsibility. We have things we have to do, and we don't have the luxury of time necessarily. But I do think that whether it's 10 minutes a day or an hour a day, like I think whatever I read this thing that was talk that this quote that was saying, how boredom is like, boredom is the seed of innovation, yeah, or invention, or imagination. And the reason is because you, when you're bored, you're just like, I don't know, like, your, your brain is allowed to kind of wonder and do these things. And I think, to your point, like, it's so vital that it's not just purely a creative thing. It is just being able to, like, imagine a slightly different world than the one that you inhabit.

Traci Thomas 16:57

Yeah, I think I've heard something similar about boredom. And I do think it's I and I've talked, you know, obviously, I interview authors all the time, and they often. Some people will talk about how, like, when they have like, writer's block, they're like, Oh, I just sit in that. Because that's my that's my space to like, let the next thing come to me if I'm stuck. You know, some people talk about, like, writing through it, which I also understand, like, just continuing to create, continuing to imagine on the page, but also this idea of like, Oh, when I feel that feeling of like I can't do anything, I will just, like, lay on my floor and be like, well, can't do anything. And then eventually, like, something comes from that. And I do like the idea of, like, boredom as potentially, potentially generative, because I'm the kind of person that if I'm not doing something, I feel like a failure, which I know is like, this whole other thing too, but it lets me at least be like, Oh, time to be bored. Like, let me try, which is just so hard for some of us. And I know people are sitting there being like, that's still, you're still in a productive mindset. I'm like, I know I tricked myself. Okay, it's called a coping mechanism.

Jay Ellis 18:04

Writing for me was that because I was writing a book for the first time, so I had to figure out, oh, how when your mindset is efficiency and productivity, and then you go to write a book, like, that's just not how it works. You're like, how you write your where you find inspiration to write or tell story or imagine, like does not care about efficiency or productivity at all whatsoever. So like me trying to schedule myself, like I would schedule myself, I would block out a time every day that I would want to write. I knew I would want to write from like nine in the morning to like 11 in the morning, if I could as many days a week as possible. But what I found is that, like, just because I blocked it out does not mean that, like the story is coming like it means I've blocked I've created the space for myself, but I haven't necessarily tapped into the thing that is going to drive story.

Traci Thomas 18:57

Yeah, okay, I want to talk about that a little bit, because I love to read the acknowledgements of books. And I also know that in the book, you talk about mentorship a lot, and you thank three, aside from your editor, Nicole Counts. You thank three writers who I know and love, Safia, Fatimah and Donovan. And I'm curious what did, how did they help you? Why them? Like, what were your, what was your relationship with with those three writers during this process?

Jay Ellis 19:22

Yeah, it really started with Nicole. Nicole created a text thread that was called O.W. for One World, LA Coven. We were, we were, we were in her coven. That's a joke. She is not in a coven or running a coven. It was a full joke. But in it, she introduced, in that text chain, she introduced me to the three of them. And she was like, Hey, I'm going to be coming out to LA soon, and I would love to get the three of us, the four of us, excuse me, five of us, rather together, and the openness, the space they created, the communication like. They would reach out, like, I hadn't spoken to them for weeks after we had initially met, and they would just reach out and be like, Hey, I'm gonna be in Hollywood. I know you live in that area, like, if you want to meet for coffee and talk ideas, or like, I think the the community in which they created, I think, really helped me, you know, to go back to, like, my day job as an actor, like, I know my job, I'm you give me a piece of material, I look at it, I can assume what the writer wanted. Yeah, if I've spoken to a director, I can now assume I can, I can understand their vision, but I still have the scaffolding. And I need to go create a character. And I can go do that, because I've done that for so long, and I can go build that person out and create that, that that character, and then go perform it, and then get notes in a process that I'm very used to, from a director, from a writer, whatever it may be, this was a completely different experience where it's like, I can't I'm not relying on somebody else's writing. This is my writing, and sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not there, and sometimes I don't see the things that I don't want to talk about. I don't see the things that I'm like spending too much time talking about. I don't see those things in the same way that having these three, specifically Safia and Donovan in my life, like they really helped with that and created that space and just created it was very safe.

Traci Thomas 21:25

That's so cool well, and they're all so talented, so a big fan. The Stacks is a big fan of all three of them. And now you, I do want to ask you about acting. When did you, because it's not in the book, when did you become an actor like the book cuts off before we get any acting. Jay, so when did that? Because you're, I mean, when the book ends, you're going to the NBA.

Jay Ellis 21:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, back on the basketball team that I foolishly quit, but, but needed to for my journey. Needed to. I- it's interesting. At that same high school, at Booker T Washington High School in Tulsa, Oklahoma, we had an absolutely amazing basketball team. A bunch of guys went to go play division one basketball. A couple guys went to the NBA. They also had an amazing theater program, a speech program, Speech and Debate program, and then the band was very huge, regionally, very well known. And I remember seeing my first play at that school, and I was like, Oh, this is cool, like I could maybe do that. But in my mind, in my mind I was doing the Fresh Prince when I was like, Oh, I could do this. I was I was fully in fresh, fresh Prince mode. They were on stage doing Othello, and I was blown away. I was completely blown away that kids my age were up there doing this thing, and it was just similar enough to, like, again, watching the Fresh Prince, yeah, every week, and wildly different, but also, like, that was the only understanding of acting that I had at the time. And I was like, Oh, I can do that. I want to do that. And it wasn't until I got to college. I used my electives in college to take classes around the theater program. I played college basketball, so I couldn't commit to a production and commit to being fully involved, but I would use all my electives to stage manage, to work on props to I did some voice classes, some some movement classes, some sense memory classes. I used a lot of my electives for that, and that's when I just fully fell in love, and when I realized in college that I was never going to get off the bench, therefore I was never going to go play any professional basketball, let alone the NBA, that's when I had this like, Oh, this is what I want to be doing with my life.

Traci Thomas 23:37

What was the first production you were in?

Jay Ellis 23:40

Well, the very first production I was actually in was a tap rendition of Oklahoma! I played Will in Oklahoma actually.

Traci Thomas 23:49

I went to Kansas City on a Friday. I love this for y'all.

Jay Ellis 23:53

Which is crazy, because there was a high school that I went to. So that was when I was in fifth grade. Okay, that's when I was in fifth grade, which is this is crazy, because then now fast forward, when I was in high school, at a at a second high school, this private high school that I went to, where I was one of a few black kids. I asked the theater teacher there if I could try out. He did Oklahoma every single year.

Traci Thomas 24:16

Well, you have to, I think if you're in Tulsa, right, it's like mandatory. You have to, it's the only option.

Jay Ellis 24:22

It's like Rodgers and Hammerstein, they did it right the first time, so we just got to keep honoring it. But, but, but they he, I remember asking him, and he was like, I told him, I wanted to try out for Will. And he said, I don't think you're the Will type. And it broke my heart, but I also didn't understand what he was saying at the time. And also, I still loved basketball so much that, like, that's where my focus was. So it was like, this kind of, like, all right, whatever, I'm just gonna go back to basketball and and that's what I focused on. And I did not do another theater production until I moved to LA I did a little black box. Oh, my. Little one act over off of Santa Monica and those little black box theaters, yeah, over in Hollywood, between vine and whatever that is, yeah, and now I'm trying to think of what that is. I'm sure I have that Playbill around here somewhere.

Traci Thomas 25:11

Actually, do you have all your Playbill things like, all, do you have to keep all your stuff?

Jay Ellis 25:15

I keep all my scripts from every show, every movie. Oh my gosh, yeah. I still have some, like, plays, like, some stuff that we worked on when I was in college. I still have like, I remember like, Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, I remember, like, there's a bunch of things where I remember like, and it really was about like, especially at that time, it was about like, understanding the text, yeah. And then, how does that then influence the work that you do, right? Yeah, and, and I think that is one of the things when I think of plays, I actually don't really talk about plays that much when I just as as as an actor, and just in my career over the last however, many years, but like the understanding of text, I think I got more from plays. Like it was so crazy to read and be like, Oh, that's what this is. Oh, okay, that's who this person is supposed to represent. Like, it was just such an amazing it's an amazing time, an amazing experience. I hope to get to some theater again.

Traci Thomas 26:14

I was just gonna say, Do you want to do theater? What would you what would be your dream theater role? Do you have one, I know you do. You're an actor. I was an actor. I know you do.

Jay Ellis 26:25

I always wanted to do Top Dog/Underdog.

Traci Thomas 26:27

Oh my gosh. They just redid it. They just did it. But I don't think you could do it too much. It's so good. Would you be Booth?

Jay Ellis 26:37

You know, I'm Booth, okay.

Traci Thomas 26:42

I agree with you about plays. Obviously, I was a theater major. I still I credit what I do now, like my interest in reading, how I read, how I think about books, with all of the reading and work that I did in college and in high school, I had a great script analysis teacher in high school, she would like, sit us down and be like fences, let's go, you know, or, like all my sons, like, have at it. And I think I always encourage folks to read plays, even now, just for fun. Last two years ago, I read the entire century cycle in order, but just in order of how of the plays not in order of when he wrote them, yeah. But I go back, I read Shakespeare like, I just think there's something about reading a play that it's so digestible, it's a full story. But also there's, like, so many gems. If it's good, I won't read I don't necessarily read new plays. I like to read, like, classic, recent American theater, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, but I have to ask you this, how did you go from Wendell to J? What's the is that like Junior? Is that what the Jay is?

Jay Ellis 27:47

It's the junior. So my dad is Wendell, Ramon Ellis, senior, and everyone always called him Big Dub growing up. And then I was little Wendell, and there was a stretch where I was the youngest cousin on my mom's side of the family, and I was the only boy. So I had a bunch of girl cousins, probably like eight or nine girls.

Traci Thomas 28:10

And we get to meet some of them.

Jay Ellis 28:12

Yes, we get to meet some of them in the book. Shout out to all of them. And we were actually in Stockton at a family reunion at the park, and my voice was really high, like I had a really, really high voice, like an abnormally high voice, and my cousins were like, tease me for it. And I remember just having this meltdown where I was like, I'm not little. Stop calling me little. Like, I just had a full meltdown. I remember leaning against a tree, like, going and doing the thing where, like, you pout and you like, storm off, and then you just go sit somewhere, and then you put your legs up and you put your arms over your knees and your head down, yeah, and I did that. And literally, from that moment on, every once in a while someone would call me a little Wendell, because they had obviously called me that for eight or nine years. At that point, 10 years, maybe even, but they started calling me Wendell Jr, and then Wendell J, and then by the time I got to high school, Jay just stuck.

Traci Thomas 29:07

Got it. So you've been Jay since high school, yeah, yeah, okay, got it. Also, we you and I share a sporting story, which is that you quit playing T ball because the ball hit you in the face, yeah. And I quit playing soccer because they made me play goalie one day, and the ball hit me in the face, and I was like, No, it's like, never gonna happen. Are we doing this? Like, why? No, crazy, no. Like, I'm not standing in this little box for 30 minutes at a time, and then when I get action, it's just straight to the dome. Like, never again.

Jay Ellis 29:36

It's always you, you are the target too. Like, it's like, you're in a tiny you're the target.

Traci Thomas 29:41

Yeah. It's crazy. You're throwing and kicking things at my face, and I'm not interested. It's crazy. Yeah? So I was, I felt very, very seen by you, because most people don't admit to being like, I'm actually, I was a vain child. I knew then I was a dancer. As a kid, I was like, You know what? I need this. Okay, I need this more than I. Need soccer. Alright, before we get to your taste in books, we have to answer a question from somebody who wrote in so I'm gonna read you what they said, and then we're gonna come up with at least you're gonna come up with at least one book recommendation. I've got a few, so we can work together too. This comes from Anna, and they say, I'm a high school English teacher, and I mainly teach 11th grade, which in our state is American Lit. And we're looking to shake up the curriculum. The books we currently teach are important, but old and old is bold, with history repeating itself as much at such a rapid pace, we want updated texts that are engaging, accessible and more relevant to now, the texts we've read and discussed but want to update are Frederick Douglass's narrative, The Great Gatsby, the crucible and The Glass Castle, and then Anna says, parenthetically, this is comparatively newer, but I don't love that. It presents homelessness as a choice, and then the last thing they say is even better, if you can make it all non fiction. So we're trying to come up with some books for 11th graders about American Lit. Talk about history, but not necessarily older books. Do you want me to go first?

Jay Ellis 31:20

Yeah, go ahead.

Traci Thomas 31:21

Okay. So I have a few. I do have one fiction book for you, Anna, but I'll get there. So my first pick is invisible child by Andrea Elliot. It won the Pulitzer in 2021 or 2022 and it's the story of a young girl named Dasani and her eight, seven siblings and her parents and the foster care system, as well as poverty in New York City and how her parents are going from job for to job. And I love this book. Many of you heard me talk about it. Andrea did the podcast, but one of the things I love about this book is I think that Andrea Elliott gives Dasani what I call the Presidential treatment. So she goes back into dasani's family she finds out which of her ancestors were enslaved in America. So she really takes you. She takes you through sharecropping. She takes you through American history, as well as taking you through this current moment in New York City or this recent moment she's with the family for about 10 or 12 years, I think. And so you're really getting this sort of like, what does it mean to be American? And I also like this for 11th graders, because Dasani does is like around that age, so she's in height. The book ends. I think she's in high school. So I like the idea of like younger people reading books about younger people that are still showing that like young people actually matter. And it's in a book for adults, but it's about a kid. The next one I would pick is how the word is passed by Clint Smith, which came out a few years ago as well. And he it's a reckoning with how we talk about and think about American slavery, and it's through space. So he goes to different physical locations in America. He goes to the New York Stock Exchange talk about the slave trading that was happening there. He goes to Angola prison, which used to be a plantation. He goes to a Civil War reenactment. So you're getting all this American history, but you're also getting it like modernized. And he's talking to people at the civil Civil War reenactment being like, So what's up with the daughters of the Confederacy? And they're like, heritage, you know. So it's like that whole thing. And then my fiction pick is the nickel boys by Colson Whitehead. So good again. It's about younger people. Even though, you know, it's not necessarily a YA book, I think it works for a younger audience. It talks about this moment in American history, sort of civil rights time. And it's about these two boys who are best friends in one of those reform schools, which was basically just like prison for black and brown kids. But it was school, and it is so good, and the ending knocks your socks off. So those are my picks.

Jay Ellis 33:54

It's so interesting. Well, when you first said this, I actually started when you first read Anna's thoughts, literally Colson Whitehead popped in my head. I thought of the underground, and then I also thought of White Boy Shuffle. So, like, those were, like two things that popped in my head. But this is a wild title, but I do think, and I know, I'm sure you've read this book just because we talked about this person, and you're, we're fan, we're both huge fans of this person, but Donovan X Ramsey has this amazing book called When Crack Was King. And I think it's really interesting because it really sets historically right. We're in the 1980s but we even do a little bit before that, and we really talk about, like, where crack was coming from, how it was made, how it got into the country. But what he does is this really amazing job of demystifying, kind of the ownership of this word crackhead, right? And what you really start to do, like, one of the things he does in this book is he takes, like, four or five different people's perspectives and people that he spent time with, and walks through their history and their journey with this drug, and you understand how it affected their neighborhoods, their family. Their personal lives and then where they and it brings them forward, if they are still alive, it brings them all way, all the way forward to today and and how they are now living past, past such a crazy, crazy time for me, the book was wildly I don't know. It just made me really rethink being a middle schooler and being in high school and call somebody a crackhead, yeah, as a joke, right? And like, why we were made and not how we ultimately, we were, mean, we were, I mean, I'm not sure of another way to say it, like it's such a derogatory term, but we had no care and compassion for those people and understanding how they got to where they were. And then, not only that, but like the ripple effect that it had around the people around them, in the community and their family and their cities and so forth and so on. So I am going to throw that one out there. I think I'm sure it's a tough title to get approved by a school, but yeah, I do think it's a really amazing study of of a crazy 2025, year period in American history.

Traci Thomas 35:59

And it's such a good recommendation, too, as you said, because he follows these four different people, it has a really strong narrative pull. So for younger people, they're gonna be able to connect with individual stories. Because I feel like in high school, sometimes you were being asked to read things where it was just like straight history, and it was hard to connect and be like, Why do I care about this thing that happened 40 years before I was born? And in this case, it's like, no, you get to know these different people, and you get to relate to them. So that's really good. Okay? Anna, Anna, if you get any of these books read, if you get them into your curriculum, you have to tell us, you have to email us. You have to let us know. And for folks who want a recommendation, read on air, email, ask the stacks at the stacks podcast.com, okay, Jay, two books you love, one book you hate.

Jay Ellis 36:46

Oh, man, two books. Okay, I'm gonna go love Okay, I'm gonna go Sag Harbor. I'm gonna bring it back to Colson.

Traci Thomas 36:53

Okay, you're a big Colson guy.

Jay Ellis 36:56

I'm a big Colson guy.

Traci Thomas 36:57

I've never read Sag Harbor. I know. I've only read Underground Railroad and Nickel Boys. I know, I know.

Jay Ellis 37:05

Um, it reminded me a little bit of my own high school experience. I think I've, I that was, like, one of the first times I read a character. I was like, Oh, I know this guy, okay, um, he's constantly thrown into new schools. He correct, tries to, like, recreate who he is, kind of gets lost in it anyway. So that's one. My other one is actually Black Buck by Mateo.

Traci Thomas 37:29

I'm reading the new one right now. Oh, This Great Hemisphere. Yeah, as we're recording, it's out today.

Jay Ellis 37:34

Yeah, yeah, congrats, Mateo. Yeah. Black Buck is another one absolutely love. That felt like the first time I had a corporate job before I started acting. And I was like, oh my god, this is what this world is, and I'm in it, and I'm also like a pariah in it at the same time. Okay, a book I hate. Can I say a book that just makes me fall asleep every time somebody talks about it? Moby Dick.

Traci Thomas 37:59

Oh yeah. Yeah. I never, yeah.

Jay Ellis 38:02

I just, I just fall asleep every time somebody brings it up.

Traci Thomas 38:06

So here's the thing about Moby Dick, that's one of the most common answers for book you hate. But this is what I will say when it doesn't come up for that question, the people who've like actually read it. So many people really love it that are surprising to me that sometimes I'm like, should I read it? Am I gonna read this book? Like I don't want to, right? I think maybe one day we'll do it on the podcast, and I'll force everyone else to read it with me, like for book club, just that I'm not alone. That's what we did with Anna. Karenina. I was like, I don't want to read this, but we're gonna do it. Yeah. What's your reading life like as an adult, how often do you read? Where do you read? How do you like to read? You have snacks and beverages sort of set the scene.

Jay Ellis 38:47

I'm a big night reader, so it's probably like the hour before I go to bed, I would say, I so there's not a lot of beverages, because I don't want to wake up in the middle of the night and have to make a bathroom run. But I do love a quiet space. I don't do well reading in bed, because I will the minute I'm horizontal I'm out has nothing to do with life or TV or just like, the minute I'm horizontal, my body's like, oh, it's time to rest. So I actually like to sit and luckily, living in Los Angeles, like, we can be outside pretty much year round. So I'd actually like to sit outside and read and like, just kind of, I think there's something for me free about like, hey, if I'm in my space, I think I will constantly think about things I need to be doing, laundry, groceries, dishes, whatever it is. I think I constantly think back to that, like, always needing to be do something. Need to be doing something. I get back into that space. So I like to actually go sit outside. I have this chair that sits like in my backyard, and I love to go like, just sit in this like, soft, padded, like lawn chair, and just read for like an hour. I try to read like, if I'm lucky, I probably read like, four nights a week, five nights a week, if I. Lucky kid, if I'm lucky, yeah, if I'm lucky, that's if I'm lucky. My kid doesn't necessarily want me-

Traci Thomas 40:06

Kids have no respect for parent reading time. Our kids are super close in age. They're very young, Is your is your kid into reading?

Jay Ellis 40:15

Well, we do a book every night, yeah, we do a book every night. She loves books, and then, usually when we leave the room, or like, I rub her back for a little bit, she always asked me to rub her back before she falls asleep. She never falls asleep. And she's like, Okay, daddy, you can go. And then she literally just sits up in bed and she flips through the pages and tells herself the story.

Traci Thomas 40:33

That's what my kids do, yeah.

Jay Ellis 40:35

I'm like, All right, you love it. I feel like I'm doing my job. Like, this is great. And then, you know, I try to go have my own reading time after that. But, yeah, she's-

Traci Thomas 40:44

What are you reading right now?

Jay Ellis 40:46

I just picked up this book, actually, that I'm probably like, two or three chapters in now, called Supercommunicators.

Traci Thomas 40:51

Okay, Is that Charles Duhigg's new one?

Jay Ellis 40:54

Yeah. I love communication. I just, I love the idea that, like, I even think about like, the what's the love language? One? Oh, my God, the four-

Traci Thomas 41:05

The five love languages!

Jay Ellis 41:11

So I think about things like, I think about things like that where I'm like, Oh, I love all of these different ways that people try to analyze how we communicate. And really, like, when you boil it down, there's really, like, some basic things, and then obviously, culturally it changes. And age wise, it changes. There's some, some, some, a range, obviously, of communication styles. But for whatever reason, I just really love books about the way people choose to use the words they use, and the more nuanced conversation, versus the on the nose conversation. To what I love about Super communicators, at least where I'm at right now, is Charles has this theory that there are basically four types of communication, and it's like, what type of so if you understand what those four types are, then you can understand the conversation that a person is trying to have with you. Okay, so like, do they want something or need something? Oh, I see. Do they just want to be heard and they don't want you to they don't, right? They just want to have someone to complain to. Are they looking for information, or is this like a crisis or a problem that needs to be fixed? And like, I think those are the four. If I mess it up, Charles, I'm sorry. Please Charles. Forgive me.

Traci Thomas 42:21

Let us know. Yeah, send us the cliff notes, Charles.

Jay Ellis 42:24

But yeah, so I love that.

Traci Thomas 42:25

Okay. Oh, that's so interesting. I read it. We did his Power of Habit on the podcast years ago. Yeah, and, and my funny story about that is that I was like, oh, like, I'm thinking about my habits so much. And in the book, he's like, if you think about your habits, like, it's harder to do them, because, like, you'll like things that you do naturally. And literally, the week I was reading in that reading that book, I backed out of my driveway and hit someone's car. Because I was like, I was like, oh, what's your habit that I have while I back out and I, like, checked too many times, so my rhythm was off. And I was like, fuck. I hate this guy. He ruined my life. Everybody was fine. I was going so slow, but like, someone was just, you know how la gets you back when someone's, like, flying down the street, yeah? Um, what's, uh, what are some books that you're looking forward to reading? They don't have to be new books, but just things you're like, excited to get to.

Jay Ellis 43:15

Yeah, you know what's interesting? I actually got this book I'm gonna look up because I don't want to pay as you go. Pay as you go. Oh yeah, that blue book, yeah. And I can't think of his name right now.

Traci Thomas 43:24

I'll link to everything in the show notes, so people will all put pay as you go, and we'll link to the author's name.

Jay Ellis 43:30

I absolutely love him. I got a chance to meet him and do a reading of the book, and it is a very thick book, so I have not had a chance to read it, because I'm also one of those people who like, I refuse to start something unless I actually feel like I have time. Yeah, if I think I'm gonna, if I don't think I'm gonna finish it, I won't do it. But I'm actually really excited to repay as you go. It's, it's, it's a it is nonfiction. It is about a man moving to this giant megatropolis of a city, and his experience of navigating and guiding that city as a person of color and not knowing anyone there, and, you know, learning the new social norms of like the place that he's in, at least, that's what I've kind of gotten from it okay and everything that I've heard. So I'm super excited to read that.

Traci Thomas 44:14

What's the last really good book someone recommended to you?

Jay Ellis 44:19

Ooh, ooh. Ooh. Actually, I'm gonna go because a friend of mine, a friend of mine sends me like, literally, like, I won't talk to her for months. She's one of my A good friend of mine's wife, and she will literally just send me book titles. And every single time she goes to the library, she gets all her books from the library.

Traci Thomas 44:42

Okay, we love this.

Jay Ellis 44:44

I absolutely love it. She lives in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Her name is Elizabeth Bojang, and she sent me this book. I have not read it yet, but I'm actually but again, this is you're gonna see, like, Oh, this is what he loves. It's called, You're Not Listening By Kate Murphy, okay. Um, What you're missing and why it matters. Another communication book. It's a she wrote. It is, this is a good self development style book, and becoming about becoming a better listener. Oh, okay, I but my friends send me such a random, so many random titles, because I do love to read kind of all over the place.

Traci Thomas 45:23

Okay, so aside from Elizabeth, who else do you take book recommendations from? Who do you trust? Do you trust? Any outlets like, are there people you don't know that you trust because, like, they recommend?

Jay Ellis 45:33

Oh, man, it was Black Man Reading, for sure, he's amazing.

Traci Thomas 45:40

Did you do his- were you on his panel?

Jay Ellis 45:43

I just met him last weekend, and I didn't recognize that. It was him. And then when he said, and then when he said, Black Man Reading, I was like, Oh, my God, I love you!

Traci Thomas 45:59

We love! He's got great taste, yeah, um, are there any kind of genres that you won't read? You've mentioned that you like communication, sort of self development books. You clearly like some sort of a little literary and some nonfiction, anything you're not into?

Jay Ellis 46:19

Um, I guess romance maybe would probably be the one that I find myself like, not leaning into um, which maybe there's something there. Who knows?

Traci Thomas 46:31

Maybe you just need the right romance. I used to be like, Oh, I don't read romance. And then since I started doing this, I have built community with so many readers, and many of them are, like, extreme romance people, and they will, I will go to them and be like, I want this kind of romance, but this kind of, like, I don't want them to get pregnant, I want I don't want them to have a big fight. I want them to be did it. And then someone will send me, like, the exact romance. And it works for me, granted, it's still romance, so it's gonna be really different than Donovan's book. You know, sometimes I have to, like, get my brain around. Like, okay, this isn't like, a book about a cult or something, but I have been convinced by the romance people in my life that there is a romance novel for everyone, but sometimes it takes a little sifting.

Jay Ellis 47:12

I will say I'm like, a I am like a sucker for love, like, I'm a total hopeless romantic. So there probably is something in there. I think it's the like, I think, when I think of the steaminess that could potentially be inside of a romance novel, I think that's the thing where I'm always like, I don't need to read that.

Traci Thomas 47:30

Okay, so you need- they call this a closed door romance, where they don't actually write the sex scenes.

Jay Ellis 47:36

Interesting. Okay, yeah.

Traci Thomas 47:37

So I've learned a lot. I'm telling you, I'm actually, like, really interested in the romance community, even though I'm sort of, like, on the outside looking in, being like, what are you guys doing over there? Do you have a favorite bookstore?

Jay Ellis 47:51

Oh, man, I would say Powell's Books in Portland, Oregon, just because, like, I spent so much time there in college, for sure, like, I think of literally just roaming the halls. But also, like, I would go there to study, I would go there, like, disappear and, like, just get off campus. It's also in this, like, kind of unique part of Portland called the Pearl so, like, there's restaurants and coffee shops, and people are kind of just always out, and it's great people watching. And it's a giant store. So, like, it's one of those stories that, like, it's so big, like every room is painted a different color, and that's how you know what room you're supposed to go to to find the thing that you want to find. Like, it's giant, um, so I would say pals. I mean, that's what jumps in my head immediately, just for like, the nostalgia of it, for sure.

Traci Thomas 48:39

I didn't ask you this, what's the book that you like to recommend to people?

Jay Ellis 48:43

Oh, man, you're gonna be like, of course it is! The Alchemist.

Traci Thomas 48:47

Oh, man, of course it is. Jay, you were doing so good.

Jay Ellis 48:52

I hate that book. I can't help myself!

Traci Thomas 48:55

What is it about it for you that you love?

Jay Ellis 48:58

When have you ever thought that, like, have you ever realized that, like, the thing that you're currently doing is amazing?

Traci Thomas 49:07

I mean, sure, like, this interview has been really fun, so far.

Jay Ellis 49:11

But are you focused on a goal? I think I was such a goal oriented person for and I still am. I'm like, very like, I gotta get to A. A is what we working on. And then after a we can move to B. Like, this is my one year, my three year, my five year. Like, I was that I am still that person, but I've eased up, but I was that person for definitely through my 20s and through my early 30s. And I think this book was the first time where I was like, Oh my God, when I look back at all the stuff that I had commit I had done to that point in my life, I was like, Oh, the journey has been absolutely amazing. Why am I so focused on? Yes, I still want to move to that thing. I'm also, I'm also a person who has a really hard time celebrating, sell. Rating, like, I think I'm not. I'm always like, yeah, no, I did that thing. It's great now, and I gotta move on to the next thing. And I think that's the goal, the goal, the goal person in me. And so I think that was another time too. Like this book really just kind of opened my eyes for me. Just kind of opened my eyes to like, you can be happy with the moments that you're in while you're still walking towards where you want to go. And I just never- For me, it was just a wool that was just kind of pulled over my eyes.

Traci Thomas 50:25

Did you read it in your 20s?

Jay Ellis 50:27

I read it the first time I got it. I was 28 years old. My mom gave me a copy of it. Shout out to Paul shout-out to Paula. And then I've probably read it again, like my early 30s. Maybe I've probably read it again, and then I don't know when the last time I read it was. I've definitely read it since I was 3233 but I it's definitely a book that I almost always tell people, because I also find that I'm always talking. I'm always in space with a lot of people younger than me who are asking me, like, what should I be doing? How should I get there? What should it what's the thing? And I and I think I always try to remember to say that like every single thing that you're doing is building towards the thing that you ultimately want, so you have to be present and live in those moments and mind the most out of those moments, so you therefore can use whatever those moments are meant to give you in the future.

Traci Thomas 51:18

I have brothers, and they all love the book, and they've told me to read it, and I read it, and was like, oh my goodness, you people cannot be trusted. Oh my goodness. But I listen, one of the things that I feel strongly about is, if you love it, I love it for you. I'm never reading it again. I read it, but I just what I do hate is when people are like, Oh, that book. Like, I hate that. It is not for me, I but I do know so many people who, and one of my brothers is very similar to you, very goal oriented, very you know. And I am too, and so, like, I understand why a book like that is appealing to you guys, but I think also they hyped it up way too much, the alchemist, it's gonna change your life. And I was like, Cool, I can't wait for my life to be changed. And you know what? It didn't I mean, it changed my life in the sense book that I hate did?

Jay Ellis 52:13

You don't want to read it, you don't like it. But here's my last thing, here's my last pitch. You've already read it, so it doesn't matter. But my last pitch on it is, I think we are often like so taught to have these goals and to strive for greatness and to strive for all these things, right? And we see them now, like in your face nonstop with socials and stuff, that I think we forget that, like, we don't really know how to enjoy the moment when you get it, or the happy or have happiness around it, like, there are moments in my life where I've achieved really amazing things and, like, I completely disregarded them and just moved on to the next as if they never happened. Yeah, and there are moments of happiness and, like, celebration and that I should have fully soaked in and lived in, yeah and didn't. And I think it's like, for me, it was also one of those things of, those things of like, being such a goal oriented person. It was also like, how can you just make sure that as you hit each of those milestones, you're present in those milestones and enjoying those milestones, so you're not, you're not doing a goal, just to do a goal, and then there is no fullness or happiness once you reach it, like you're doing it, and hopefully you've taken everything along the way. Okay, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna evangelize it anymore.

Traci Thomas 53:23

It's done. It's great, people, if you're looking for a book to help you take in the moment, read The Alchemist. But don't tell me about it. Tell Jay. Find Jay on social media. Let him know what you thought. Okay, do you have a favorite book from childhood?

Jay Ellis 53:38

Ooh, yeah, yeah, I would say my probably, like, favorite, favorite book is Needi to the rescue. Deborah Newton Chocolate. It was the first time where, like, I saw kids who looked like me on a book cover, and I was like, I want to read this like everybody kind of looked like me. They spoke like me, moved like me. I also liked Earl Stein growing up a lot. I love to be scared. I love horror. So like, Yeah, okay. And then I have many black Americans of achievement books that I could give you based on the reading my mom made me do.

Traci Thomas 54:16

Okay, got it. Got it. Since you're an actor and you're a person who options things, right? Yeah, so don't give us any secrets. You don't have to give us any secrets. What is a thing? What is a book you would love to see turned into a thing. But also, if you can't say, that's okay too.

Jay Ellis 54:35

I mean, I would say, like, I mean, for myself, I would say option this book called Spite House by a guy named Johnny Compton, black author out of San Antonio, Texas, and it is a Southern Gothic Horror. And the really the book is all about generational trauma, and how do we break that? But it's this amazing story of this father and his two daughters that are on the run. In, and he will take whatever job he can just to get a little cash in his pocket to get to their ultimate destination. And he ends up taking a job as a caretaker for a house. And this house has a past, and it has a history, and anyone who comes into this house usually does not leave. And the book ultimately ends with like, some sacrifice and like, ultimately, this father has to make a decision, and he does, and his family gets out. But you know, we have this very last moment where we're not sure if it's actually the father or if it's Yeah, or if it's scary, yeah, it's a good one. It's a really, really good one.

Traci Thomas 55:36

That's good. Yeah. Do you have any movies or TV shows where you think they are better than the book?

Jay Ellis 55:46

I don't know. I feel like, I don't I don't think that's possible.

Traci Thomas 55:49

It is possible. Well, I think BlackkKlansmen, the movie is always the example I give because I thought the book was not very good, but the movie's pretty entertaining. I think what happens is that people think about like, oh, I want to turn my favorite book into a movie, right? And when the book is really good, it's not possible, right? But when the book is just okay.

Jay Ellis 56:11

Eh, because you can go up!

Traci Thomas 56:12

You can do things with it, you can make changes. You can, like, lean in. So I feel like there's a lot of things that have been adapted that we don't even think of as adapted, because it's like, the book was fine, or whatever, right, right? That's my theory. So I always tell my all my little Hollywood friends, I'm like, don't adapt this really good book. Adopt this, like, sort of down the middle, yeah, you'll have more freedom, I promise. Okay, last question for you, if you could have the current president of the United States read one book. What would you want it to be?

Jay Ellis 56:43

I don't know. This is a good one.

Traci Thomas 56:48

I stole it from the New York Times.

Jay Ellis 56:50

This is a good one. I mean, I feel like we need Joe to read something historical. But I kind of also feel like maybe he needs some James Baldwin in his life.

Maybe he needs, I don't know. He might need to run back The Audacity of Hope.

Traci Thomas 57:09

Check in with his friend.

Jay Ellis 57:10

Yeah, he might need to run that one back and just be like, Hey, man, I need some help. Yeah, that's such a good one. I don't know. I don't know. I want to that's, that's one of those ones I want to think on for sure.

Traci Thomas 57:25

Okay, well, you don't have a lot of time.

Jay Ellis 57:28

I know. Maybe, maybe Notes of a Native Son.

Traci Thomas 57:38

Notes on a native son. I like that. That's a good answer. We'll take that. Everybody at home. Best news ever, Jay is gonna be back on August 28th we are discussing Pulitzer Prize winner, Master Slave Husband Wife, by Ilyon Woo. We're gonna discuss the book in detail for book club. I'm really excited. I've been wanting to read this book since last year. I didn't get around to it last year, so I haven't even read it as the time we're recording, but I will have read it by the time we record part two. Everybody else, go get your copy. Read with us, and obviously, hello, you can get Jay's book. Did everyone have an imaginary friend, or just me, wherever you get your books. At the time of us recording, have not heard the audiobook yet. I begged for a copy. It's not done until next week, they told me. So I read it off the page, and I loved it, but I have a feeling that I will go back and listen to some of the chapters on audio, because I know you read it, and I can't wait.

Jay Ellis 58:40

I do read it. I do read it. And my mom and dad.

Traci Thomas 58:42

Oh, my God, not the whole family.

Jay Ellis 58:46

Come on. I got him in there.

Traci Thomas 58:48

I love it. Well, everybody you can get Jay's book wherever you get your books, audio or physical, read Master Slave Husband Wife with us, and thank you so much for doing this with us. Jay.

Jay Ellis 58:59

No, thank you. This was awesome.

Traci Thomas 59:01

And everyone else, we will see you in the stacks.

All right, y'all that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Jay Ellis for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Carla Bruce Eddings for helping to make this conversation possible. Don't forget, Jay will be back on August 28th for our book club discussion of Master Slave Husband Wife by Ilyon Woo. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join The Stacks Pack and subscribe to my newsletter at TraciThomas.substack.com. Make sure you're subscribed to The Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave a rating and a review. For more from The Stacks follow us on social media at thestackspod on Instagram, Threads and TikTok and at thestackspod_ on Twitter and you can check out my website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Megan Caballero
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