Ep. 321 No Name in the Street by James Baldwin — The Stacks Book Club (Yahdon Israel)

Written By Megan Caballero
Ep. 321 No Name in the Street by James Baldwin — The Stacks Book Club (Yahdon Israel).jpg

It is The Stacks Book Club Day, and we're celebrating James Baldwin and his centennial year by reading his book, No Name in the Street. We're joined again by Senior Editor at Simon & Schuster- and founder of  Literaryswag- Yahdon Israel. We talk about the delicate balance between public and private, in life and in memoir. We also examine the usefulness of public beefs, and Baldwin’s lasting legacy.

Be sure to listen to the end of today’s episode to find out what our June book club pick will be.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Traci Thomas and it is The Stacks book club day. We are talking about James Baldwin's memoir, No Name in the Street in honor of Baldwin centennial year. I am joined today by writer, editor, Literaryswag founder, Stacks listeners favorite Yahdon Israel. Today Yahdon and I talk about this book No Name in the Street, which is Baldwin's fourth nonfiction title and gives us real insight into how his consciousness was shaped. We also discussed the difference between power and influence, and what a book like this means for the culture. Now, make sure to listen through to the end of today's episode to find out what our June book club pick will be. Quick reminder, everything we talked about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. All right now it is time for my conversation with Yahdon Israel about No Name in the Street by James Baldwin.

Alright everybody, we are back we are joined again for the Stacks book club day by senior editor at Simon & Schuster. Yahdon Israel. Yahdon, welcome back.

Yahdon Israel 2:14

How you doing?

Traci Thomas 2:14

Good to have you. We are doing James Baldwin and his his 100th birthday year this year, he would turn 100 this year. So lots of folks are talking about James Baldwin, we're here at the stacks for the book club are talking about no name in the streets beside, I want to say this is not the one we have done one James Baldwin book before on the show. Our second ever or third ever book club pick was Giovanni's Room. And then for six years, we have done no James Baldwin. And now we are back. People at home we are going to spoil this book. You can't spoil it. It's nonfiction. It's about his life. But also in case you haven't read it and you don't want to know anything. Go read it and then come back. But honestly, it came out in 1972 it's about his life. I don't know anyways, we always start here for book club. You don generally what did you think of this book? And also I will ask this, have you read the book before? And if so, how many times?

Yahdon Israel 3:12

I read this book, I think it was I was in college this was like undergrad. And I remember reading nobody knows my name first I was as a collection because I found like I used to go and Wikiquote a lot to look for closer papers and I found this quote that he said anybody who struggle with poverty knows how expensive it is to be poor. And I was like Oh Who the fuck is this spin like this. And so I found the essay that it was in and it was an essay and nobody nobody knows my name. And I read that one and then I was on a whole essay kick so I was just grabbing all of them and I first read this an undergrad No Name in the Street. And I came back to it because I actually picked it from my book club and 2016 and I really the reason why I picked this one because this was you know as Trump was running and every there was a lot of you know any in times of crisis you know, this country likes to look at his magical negros for insight and light ball when is to this country a lot of people a magical negros people who they quote, quote them out of context they you know, they Oh, I've read Fire Next Time again. And knowing that this is like one of those beside ones that don't get talked about as public not as publicly talked about, like this was one when you asked me about like which book you want to discuss what his book club I was like this one because I think that as many people say all the time like Bo wins assessment of of the world Now could I mean then could it could be you know, applied to now I think that this book is much more evident, like what acknowledges a lot more as the world that was happening in real time and the one that he was he realized he was in a lot of ways on it. clip for. And that was the world of what does it mean to be a famous person who doesn't to win? What happens when you have fame and you don't have power? Right? And I was like, Nah, in this, you know, political cultural moment when people are really confused and followings and verify checks and brand deals for power is like, this is definitely a book that I think is necessary for anybody who's specially a cultural worker or somebody, anybody who considers themselves to be a public figure who wants to do the right thing, but don't know how to do it, but also who's following people who think they're doing the right thing and you have a critique, but you don't know how to articulate it. Like this is a this is a book of this is a book of the times.

Traci Thomas 5:44

Yeah. Okay. So this is my first time reading it.

Yahdon Israel 5:48

I want to know what you thought. I'm curious. I want to hear, let's hear it. Let's hear.

Traci Thomas 5:55

I want to preface my thoughts like should I want to preface my thoughts? I'll tell you my thoughts. My first and overreaching thought is that James Baldwin is difficult to read, like his writing style is challenging. I struggled. I had to go back a lot and reread sections and sentences multiple times to even understand what he was saying, the way he writes sometimes, like he has a lot of like non sequiturs, or like he uses commas and dashes in a way that I'm like, Wait, who are we talking about?

Yahdon Israel 6:23

Yeah.

Traci Thomas 6:24

But I think for some people, that writing style is super resonant. For me, it is a challenge. I also think it's something that like, I have not read a lot of his work. And I think the more that I read his work, the more that that I will understand it, but it does feel like work like reading this felt like, difficult to me. Yeah. So that cloud, I mean, that is like overreaching of my experience, which was like, I don't know that I enjoyed reading this book, because I was struggling to read this book. That being said, the second essay, or like the second half was much more my speed I love. I loved him talking about figures that I felt very familiar with. I have a passion for Malcolm X, I always have I've read everything anybody writes about him. Yeah. And so this, the sections about Malcolm X, particularly were exciting, but also I'm from Oakland. So the stuff on the Black Panthers loved because that is a history that I grew up with. I don't ever not remember, I never remember a time where I didn't know who the Black Panthers were, you know, yeah, so I loved that stuff. And then I really liked again, in the second essay about his friend in prison about Tony Maynard, I was so interested in that story. So I really liked the second essay better. And I did switch to reading some of the second essay on audio. And I think that helped me because I was less caught up in the words on the page and was able to sort of take it in more fully. So I think all of that and the other thing that I loved what I did love about this book is like I do love that James Baldwin is willing and excited about taking apart really big things. Like he's talking about the powerful versus the powerless. Like that's a big, that's a big topic, you know, like, he's talking about globalized racism, like, come on. Now. He's talking about the interconnected struggle like he is seeing what is happening in America in the 60s and 70s. And he is extrapolating out. And that is thrilling to read. Because I think right now, especially in books, especially post 2020, so many books are all about racism, small individual, my experience was this or like, here's how to do racism XYZ. And he's like, yeah, yeah, I felt racism. Let's go to Algeria. Like yes, yes, yes. No, this is this was difficult for me in the American South. But like, when I was in France, or like, also, these people are also Israel. And I'm like, I love that he was doing the big shit. Always. And that's like, just that was really, like, enjoyable and exciting and provoking for me. So it's sort of a mixed bag on how I felt about this book. But I also think in talking to you, you're gonna convince me to like it even more.

Yahdon Israel 9:19

And I appreciate like, I respect the fact that you are honest about what you found difficult about it. And like Baldwin is not a writer who like you definitely can read with the TV on metaphorically No, for sure. Like every time I every time I read Baldwin, like I'll show you I mean people can't see this but like, I read I read everything with a pin but I especially read bowling with a pin because to your point. He has a he has a lot of complicated things he does with writing. But we what we also got to put in context with people who might be reading a bow and or a lot of these old writers is that you know, TV, it was still a nice newer technology, right books. We're like, the one of the oldest or not one of the more established forms of, of entertainment of education of information transmission. So part of what you're also engaging with is the stylus. Yeah, him right. And like what he wants to do, as I understand it, is like the way he uses the M dash, right is like he's doing what I heard a poem one of my one of my duties as a poet, David Tomas Martinez explained that, like what poets try to do on a page is what artists do with their voices when they sing. Right. So the riffs and the runs, and, you know, the Kendrick Lamar, switch ups and adlibs, as like, writers try to bring that same level of theatrics and performance to the page, but you are limited on a page in a way that you're not limited when you're singing. Because you can layer you can do all these things, and you can hear it as a cohesive thing. Whereas in a book, you got to do a sentence at a time. So I understand everything you're saying. And I think that what you acknowledge enables people to enter the book, pause without like, feeling as though they're dumb because they don't get it right away. This is somebody you're supposed to like when I read Bo, and I sit with it. And I don't necessarily read through it. And one night like he his books, are they especially his essay collection like this is a less than a little bit under 200 pages, right? But I say this to say like for anybody who wants to, like understand this, like the basic synopsis of this book, as I understand, and you could tell me how you understood it. Yeah. Is basically his friend, which kicks this book off as his friend gets arrested for a crime that he apparently didn't commit. Like, I don't not quite. It's a murder. A murder of a sailor but but yeah, he's being held in a prison. In France, I believe.

Traci Thomas 11:47

in Germany. Don't worry.

Yahdon Israel 11:54

But I remember his sister calls Baldwin, and like I need we need you to help get my brother out of jail. And the entire book is really like a foil of people are respond are expecting him that because he's a PERT. He's a celebrity. He's famous that he has a kind of power that he doesn't have. And I think that what he shows, and I think one of the first thing he shows it was when I said earlier, like what is fame without power? It's what we call influence, right? Like people who don't have power have influence because they we need to influence those in power and who have power to do things. But what happens when you confuse influence for power is what happens throughout the book, when for example, homie reaches out to him who we grew up with about his suit. Yeah, right. And like, you know, after King is assassinated, you know, Baldwin says in the newspapers, oh, I can't bear to keep this suit anymore, because it has America's blood on it, which is really like some, some some real like, oh, no, like, at the very least privileged thing to say, like you given away a suit, because of a metaphor. And one of his neighborhood Buddies is like, listen, I could wear that suit. So he takes the suit up to his friend and takes the suit down to his friend in Queens. But because he can't catch a cab, because he's still black in Harlem, and it's still a six, late late 60s, early 70s. a limo comes to pick him up. Right? And so he pulls up to his friend's house in a limo, trying to not make it look like anything has changed. But it's like, Dude, you have a kind of level of access that the average person doesn't have. And that does mean something now for Baldwin is like, it doesn't mean what I know, it suggests, but at the same time, and this is why I really fucks with him, is because he has what I recognize very few contemporary writers have is self awareness and the ability to it's the ability to critically examine himself and go, Yeah, I was on some bullshit. Um, so like when he says on page 21, where he talks about the general reaction of famous people who hold difficult opinions is that they can't really mean it is considered generally to be merely an astute way of attracting public attention, a way of making oneself interesting. One marches on gunnery, for example, melee, in my own case, to sell one's books. Well, there is nothing than to be said. There went the friendly fried chicken dinner There went the loving past I watched a mother watching me wondering what happened to her beloved Jimmy, and giving me up the set her sour suspicions confirmed, and great weariness I pour myself yet another stiff drink by now definitely condemned and lit another cigarette. They watched me all the while for symptoms of cancer and with the precipice at my feet for that bloody suit was their suit after Rolla had been bought for them, and had been even bought by them. They created Martin, he had not created them. And so the distance between us and I had never thought of this before was that they did not know this and that and now I now did realize that I love them more than they love me. And I don't mean that I love them more than love me and like it's like that performative since it's basically he recognize, because I have a power they don't have i Even though I have fame, I know how much they make, they don't know how much I make. They don't know what my interior life looks like. And I had not done as bolt when lays out here he had not done the work to make the real connection that existed as a shorthand when you encounter a celebrity, right. And as a celebrity, he understood that while he lamented the position, he realized that his onus, to present himself as a full fledged human being was his responsibility altogether. And the challenge of that is like, when you think about this contemporary landscape, where you have influencers who talk about being real people, is only sometimes talked about when they make the faux pas in public and then get dragged on the internet. And now they want to be a real person. But prior to that, you know, they're very fine with presenting themselves as a brand. Because it looks cool. And it gets them invited to cool parties. And it gets them to take pictures with dope celebrities, and it gets them the brand deals and all these things and what he's realized, and it's like, you can't have this ship both ways, right? Like you can't, if you're going to be a real person, there is a real price for making certain kind of political, cultural, when you draw a line in the sand, you have to stand on whatever line you drew. And one of the difficult things about being a public figure is because you represent so many things that different people, you can conflate your personhood for your position. And like, that's one of the things he says. And I think that like, you know, that's what I found profound about it is that is highly existential what he's dealing with, because fame was also a relatively new concept in the 70s.

Traci Thomas 16:46

Right, and it meant and that's something different for a black queer man to be famous in the 1960s and 70s, than maybe it does now for an influencer now, where like, you're able to make your own platform and if the audience comes, right, you can, you can leverage that. Whereas like, back then, he was like, he was the chosen one, for all intents and purposes. And so like, there's some part of that too, that I that I feel like he's grappling with, which is like not only that he has this, like sort of responsibility, but also this power or not power influence. To your point, is that also, you know, why him Rao him? Like I think he would say, you know, like, I'm, I'm I'm good with the pen, but I think like a lot of people are good writers who don't end up becoming James Baldwin, who we don't celebrate 100 years later, like their birth you know, so like, Why him how him I think that's something that he's certainly grappling with in the book.

Yahdon Israel 17:45

Well, you talk about Malcolm I want to I want to honor your love for Malcolm I love Malcolm you know as well and I think that like I think why him I don't I think I think there's a lot of people who and I was one of them I count myself one of them who wanted to be the next Baldwin whatever that man right like, and we got to see a bit of that if you look at what happened with Tana he see Coates when we wrote me came out. And you know, Toni Morrison, you know, it was like, this dude is filling, you know, this man, this book is filling an intellectual voids and bow and left, people miss heard that. And then like, we got to see what the other the dark side, right of what the price of what it means to be in that kind of position. Because what we get the benefit of doing people removed from that context, is reading Baldwin out of historical context. So we get to just live with the words, not with the underground thing. And when bring it I want to bring you to page like 92 where he's talking about, oh, Baldwin, when he's talking about Malcolm, and he says this, like he has this brilliant insight about Malcolm.

Traci Thomas 18:54

About him becoming a saint later-

Yahdon Israel 18:57

Well, well, this 97 way, he says, What made Malcolm unfamiliar and dangerous was not his hatred for white people. But his love for blacks, his apprehension of the horror of the black condition, the reasons for it, and his determination, so to work on their hearts and minds that they would be unable to see their condition and change it for themselves. Right. And so like he even within his critiques, what I think is you not unique about bowling, because when you when we do that we like sort of create this, like, alter the bow at which I think that what Baldwin is doing is he's taking real risk, right? And this is the thing that like, Why him is like back then that generation, I think, understood the realities of like responsibility and duty. And it's like if he if you were, you know, just like if you were the smartest one in your family, there was a time when everyone didn't go to college. So if he was the smart one, you are going to college but you then were responsible for making sure that that college degree benefited everybody, everyone right where it is now we're much over culture, like when you said it's about the Me, me me thing, there's not this sense of a larger responsibility to people you don't even know. Right? Right. And so it's like the fact that he could have had that damn suit mailed to his friend, but I gotta go take this to my friend, right? Like, you know, when Hollywood reaches out about the Malcolm X, I'm gonna take it on, not necessarily because I might want to, I might not even know how to do it. But I understand the importance of preserving his man's legacy because of what he represents. And I'm not saying that, like, there are enough coachworks on the status, I think that the performativity of that labor robs the price of what that labor really means. And what we see is that you don't get a life unto yourself. And that's really what you're giving up like, you're like this fame, quote, unquote, comes at the expense of his of his own ability to, like you said to self determine what Baldwin wants to do only for Baldwin, he has to like, no, he, part of his understanding of his legacy is like, you know, I got to make sure I'm keeping the record at the expense of being, you know, followed by the FBI. And those things in this site, you know, now is some people find out, they get told by and they get shadow banned by Instagram for a weekend and they, they stop, they stop, they should. So like, the stakes are just really different.

Traci Thomas 21:28

Yeah. Okay. Part of be getting to become a public figure is that you have like a part of you is no longer private, you are public, you are a public person. Right. And I think like, I think also, what's, again, interesting about him and about his positionality in history, is that, and he talks about this, he talks about the revolutionary verse, the artist, like how sometimes they're at odds, but I think what's really interesting is that this books, and also you know, if you saw the documentary, I'm Not Your Negro, which, which covers a lot of the stuff that's in this book, he is a he is positioned alongside some of the most famous revolutionaries because he was in conversation and in contact with them. And so I think like that juxtaposition for, you know, I guess it's like a bit of dramatic irony for the reader of like, we know what happens to all of these people, right, they know, that mouse that Malcolm X is killed, we know that Medgar Evers is killed, we know them or Luther King was killed. If you Google, you know, what happens to Tony Maynard. And we know what happened to James Baldwin. And so I think like, that is also part of reading this is like late, the, you know, reading it after the fact, we have a context for all of this, and an understanding of like, what what what it means to survive what it means to be the one who gets to write the story, who gets to tell the story. I mean, you know, famously, the autobiography of Malcolm X was, you know, told to Alex Haley, but he was assassinated before the book comes out. So even like his own story that he was telling, you know, he doesn't get to be truly the final author of his story. And I think like James Baldwin has again that responsibility to others, because he is getting to write these books. And you know, he is alive when the books are coming out, he has not been assassinated, he but he carries that responsibility of these people that he knew and loved and respected. And also, he carries the responsibility of the people that he knows and loves and respects who were not assassinated. So I just think like, again, this like balance of public and private is just so, you know, like, to your point is just so powerful, and the way the responsibility plays into it is very palpable throughout the book.

Yahdon Israel 23:47

I'm curious to know for yourself, like that area where he starts to talk about his beef. And, you know, with George Taylor, no widow cleaver. Oh, when? Right because that white Negro essay coming at Norman Mailer and Elvis Gleevec came at him. And then you know, he, you know, Eldridge Cleaver, who was the Minister of Information for the Black Panthers. He had like, some, you know, homophobic language for bow in vain and he was like, you know, an emboldened response. I'm curious about what you saw what you think about what was your being from Oakland. And he's thinking about boatman, as a figure, like, Bolin was born at that time. And cleaver was that younger generation, right. So there's that generational divide. I'm curious about how you understood and enjoyed it.

Traci Thomas 24:39

I think for me, like, I, I personally am a fan of beef. Like, I like-

Yahdon Israel 24:49

You like the messy.

Traci Thomas 24:51

I do, because I think it is useful. I think it moves conversations. I think it is like, I think it's powerful. I think it is Interesting. I think it is exciting. I think other people like it, I think it is extremely useful. I think that homophobia is not useful. I think that like, just because something is messy, or because people have beef, I don't necessarily think that it is good. But I do like I think what James Baldwin does in this book a few times, he talks about the people he respects like there's a whole paragraph of like all of his contemporaries where he's talking about the work that they were doing. And I think that that is also useful and exciting. And then he, you know, has a little few digs at Eldridge Cleaver, he has a few days at George Schuyler. And like, I like that because I wish that now, people were able to be where people were less worried about getting like, quote, unquote, canceled or whatever getting dragged and would say the things because I think sometimes we get currently we get into this place where everyone is the greatest of all time. And I'm like, I don't know, like, I would love to know what a smart person thinks about this on their birthday.

Yahdon Israel 25:59

I feel it, I feel it. I think it's also one of those things where, like, I get what you're saying about like, beef. You know, I teach that class quote, you know, that literary criticism class. And I agree with I agree with criticism being a necessary way to engage, right, like the thing, I think, is necessary is the conflict, right? Like the friction, how we write what I what I also what I recognize, and it's why even a very, like, I don't openly talk about books I don't like, because I know that I'm often not talking to a audience of people who understand how to have that conversation. Yes. And it's like, privately, I'll have those conversations, not because I'm afraid of smoke. It's because I'm not making the assessment. Because I'm looking for smoke. I'm making the assessment because I want a conversation. But guess you learn that people are not necessarily hearing what you're saying. They're responding to what they believe. You're saying. And when you are talking to somebody, and you've made a very specific assessment, and they're choosing to make your assessment mean something else, then it's like, oh, well, if you don't like this, then you must be that and it's like, I just I didn't like it. And it's like, but you said that, you know, like so you we get what happens is it gets further and further from the point ran, I would I tell you everything about like what you're saying? It resonates with me. I also know that like there's responsible ways to do criticism. I agree with that. And there's irresponsible ways. And it's wild. Like I definitely aligned with what you know, Tony Morrison said about like, I'm not going to write any disparaging reviews about any black authors, particularly black women. Because the way that the public will weaponize that is not what its function is. Right. And so it's like, it's like, almost like if you want to play fighting, right? Because that's what we do. If someone else sees that in public is like, Oh, my God, that man is beating that woman up, right? And then it's like, oh, it takes on a very different kind of thing. And yeah, it's again, it's not about duck and smoke. I think that a lot of people recognize that. The part of the labor is to grapple right and that's a better word. And when you don't have formidable grappling partners, you you're talking to yourself anyway. Right? Like I remember I'll share with you like I wrote in 2000, this is all on my Instagram pages. You can follow it. So I remember Dave Chappelle, the year that Trump got elected, he did his monologue. And I praised his monologue along the lines of like, Yo, like, he's, he is what he is my favorite comedian of all time, have a deep respect for his craft as a comedian. And even when I say that, right, I'm even feeling compelled to say I don't, you know, right, I find his transphobia to be problematic, which I do. But what my assess by saying that he's my favorite comedian doesn't mean that I endorse the politics of his jokes. It means that I recognize himself as a craftsperson. Anyway, I'm make this posts, celebrating what I saw to be his ability to tell the truth. And I got responses, received responses and my comments that was like, How could you do this? Like, I thought more of you like you're like he's transphobic and all these different things. And that was a blind spot when I made that assessment. After he did the third special I wrote a piece for The Atlantic, in which the Atlantic was like, Oh, I see now what I couldn't see what I did not see then. Right but had I not done the posts and actually grappled with the people in the comments and I rap like I was, I'm responding, I wouldn't have been able to come to this level of awareness. Right. And so what I'm what I get what you're saying, right is like, we like to share the outcome of the grappling. Right. But we don't necessarily like the grappling with people, when it like, you know, for a year, arguably, to a lot of people in Finland, some people, they might see me as a transpose simply because I wrote a post that was right, celebrating a kind of genius that I recognized at the expense of not talking to something that at that time, I did not have asked to see. And then when I shared the eyes, I had to see I remember some of the posts, you know, some of the people's responses was snide, it was like, oh, like, if, like, sort of hit me with like this, you just now getting this and there was an impulse to be like, damn, like, not that I was looking for celebration, because I wasn't, but it was also recognizing, like, That person doesn't know the labor that I did to get here. So it's for them, I should have been here. But what that also then says to me, in my mind is like those are also the kind of people who do not do as much growing as they think they're doing. Yeah, right. Because there's this assumption that we just come into the world just knowing how to just be on quote, unquote, whatever the fuck that means the right side of history at all times, like sometimes you are in the wrong place. Yeah. And it might take you five years to really understand the concept. Like I grew up in a homophobic neighborhood, and the homophobic social and cultural context, we're talking about bed Stein and 90s. Like, right, it was embedded. And so for me to just be like, Yeah, I just always knew that everyone had humanity. Like, No, I didn't know that. I remember coming to face and being like, oh, men are wearing heels. And what's this? And, and these are, these are actually like gay men are not trans. And that took a while for me to like, actually begin to interrogate Well, why am I so bald about how other people are navigating the world and their bodies, but to try to frame it like, even though I grew up in his hyper masculine, homophobic, misogynistic world, I somehow remained unscathed and unaffected by everything that was around me. I call bullshit on that. So I get what you're saying. And if it evolved deeply about, like, the importance of friction in our society?

Traci Thomas 32:20

Yeah, I think that's right, I think that what I am drawn to is the friction, but hearing what you're saying is also like, the idea of growth, versus actually doing the growing Yep. Right. Like, those are two very different things. And I think like, what, what the friction allows is, like, I don't know, if you're thinking of it, I'm from California. So like, if you think of it as like an earthquake, It like makes fresh land, it makes a new space. But like, that's a really difficult thing to go through as an earthquake, right? Like it is, that can be bad. But I do think that like, of course, there are going to be bad faith, people who engage with whatever or they take, they take whatever the argument is, and they use it against you in a bad way. Or, you know, they, in addition to having criticism for you, they also expose themselves to be homophobic and all of these things, right? Like that, there are a lot of ways that the friction can go. And it's not always just like, directly, like, we bump up against each other, we figure it out, we grow together. Like that's not it's not a linear situation. But for me, you know, as a person who talks into a microphone about a lot of topics that I didn't know anything about, I read one book about a thing, and then I talked about it, and it's recorded, and it lives forever, that I know how difficult it can be to grow in public and to grow, you know, in a way that is like, extremely, I get I feel extremely vulnerable sometimes when I have to have these conversations, right. And like, I know that I fucked up and I know that people talk about me in the DMS, like, behind my back, and I understand that. And also, I know that it's a, I do feel really privileged to be able to do that too. Right. And like, so I appreciate friction, because I know what it has done for me and I know that it has changed how I how I think about not only art, but just like the world and other humans. But I also feel like there's a responsible way to do it and being like a prick about it is not like the best way so not every bout of friction or beef is good. But generally I am team let's fucking go.

Yahdon Israel 34:30

And like we come back to it is really is like people don't want the smoke that they think they want. And so it's like, that's what I mean is when you recognize that, like, everybody ain't worth that labor is grappling and friction. It's like being in a relationship with somebody. There's a lot of trust that needs to be established, right for me to equal respect. Like I don't even you know, I have to know you. And I want to make sure like, you know, I'm honoring your Platt honor Bring your format by like making sure I bring it back to the book as much as possible. But I want to use this quote as a way to continue to deepen this conversation we're having about the grappling. When he talks about the beef he had with Eldridge. One of the things I appreciate about him, you know, he talks about Eldridge coming down. This is one page 172. And he says that I think that it is just as well to remember that the people are one mystery and that the person is another. Though I know what a very bitter and delicate and dangerous conundrum this is, it yet seems to me that a failure to respect the person so dangerously limits one's perception of the people that one risk betraying them in oneself, either by singing to the apathy of cynical disappointment, or rising to the rage of knowing better than the people do what the people want. Ultimately, the artists and the revolutionary function as a function and pay whatever dues they must pay behind it, because they are both possessed by a vision and they do not so much follow this vision as find themselves driven by it. Right, they don't follow the vision, but they, they they get pushed into. Otherwise, they can never endure much less embrace the lives they are compelled to lead. And I think we need each other and have much to learn from each other. And more than more than ever now. And so when you talk about that friction, you talk about that, that that beef, I recognize what you're talking about, it's that shield, you know, steel sharpens steel, right. It's that yeah, I was like, I know that you have something of value to give. So I'm going to give you the space to share it, even if it runs up against it makes me uncomfortable.

Traci Thomas 36:33

Right? So the question is like, is the person a worthy adversary, right? Baldwin is not going toe to toe with every fucking buddy. He's like, I'm gonna write a book about Richard Wright.

Yahdon Israel 36:43

Right. Because like, right is, is certain people who deserve that kind of they deserve the smoke and other people, even in rap battles, right? Like, you know, part of the respect is the fact that you even get your name mentioned. And what I would say when you think about this generation, and what and not just a generation is like, generation, like whatever number or letter we're on the millennia now, it's not that it's about like this, it will be more this social landscape where anybody can kind of tune in. Right? It's almost like if you're watching a boxing match, and then people just start jumping in the room. And it's like, all right, and Mike Tyson just knocking all these people out, but it's like, he don't get paid. He doesn't get a championship for knocking that personnel, he don't get paid for that he doesn't become a better fighter, but yet he can get sued for that. Right. He's like the Cam Newton, right, that he's more vulnerable, for defending his position than people are for attacking his position, they have nothing to lose. And so that's what I mean is like, the reason why I grapple with the people directly is because that's who I have the grappling with, right? I'm always very mindful and watchful of people who like use the public as a tool to create their discourse. Right? So it's like, you're gonna show up and you know, in this these students in the hood, these jump people, right, the one who can't fight so he got nine people with them. And so you run not because you're afraid of the one but because he's like, you just, you know, you're adept at math. It's like, I can't fucking fight nine people, I could find nine people, but no, and anybody who would internalize that they like the one is the coward when it's like, but y'all got nine people. So like, I would have to be delusional to think I'm cowardice for not confronting the one person when it's not just one person. And that's really what the dying that's what social media has created. And in a way that like, Bo generation, and particularly, you know, him in his book is grappling with, and we got to also be honest, right? Like, no, we don't gotta be honest, in a sense of like, honest, such a fucking what is the word loaded? I would say like, I'm gonna just like say this, that there's something very different between your adversaries being the FBI, and the larger media conglomerates and power brokers and powerful industries, and random people with 12 followers. And, uh, you know, no, no post, right? They're not the same thing. And the fact that we sometimes try to make and when I say we people in this generation we try to make that the same thing right where it's like no like being told you know, having a government agency follow every move you make and and spy on you is not the same as like a bunch of people telling you you canceled and right like haters Yeah, we need to like there's a difference here like people are people are becoming like, you know, prisoners of have, you know, their political prisoners locked up for trumped up charges and you're mad because like you lost your fucking brand. Do So I think that even the landscape of what grappling means and what gets what gets lost, like people were losing their actual freedom and their actual lives. And now and it's a there's a reality to people losing their livelihoods, but it's like, people lost their like, when he talks about mega and Malcolm and like, they're getting their heads blown off. Right? So, you know, Malcolm getting assassinated in front of his daughters and his wife, that cartoon, right? Megan's shot, you know, in the back of his head in his driveway is like, we not about to sit here and try to compare the stakes, because they're not the same. Right? And so your point and and that's why I wanted to bring this back is like, this is somebody who's just to me, the stakes were far more the implications and ramifications of his actions to speak out, or whatever that means to tell his truth was high. So it was like, I don't want to hear oh, well, I'm afraid of this. And I'm afraid of that. It's like then shut the fuck up, then. Yeah, but don't close. And then also don't say, Don't talk. You don't get to talk then. Yes, I totally. And it's sometimes and I'm learning the fucking value of just shutting the fuck up. Sometimes.

Traci Thomas 41:09

It's very powerful.

Yahdon Israel 41:10

It's a powerful thing to shut and he says it gives you just to bring it back to the book again. He has a brilliant quote and that's one thing this man got is he got boss quote, he got bars like the it's like, if you want to think like he is the fabulous of the literary world, when you think about fat widow, he like Rifat raps for Instagram, he knows that everything he says is going to be a caption. If like Baldwin could have foreseen an Instagram, he's like, Oh, this is going to be used on your Instagrams on your own.

Traci Thomas 41:40

You can be over every picture and every caption just over a plain black with a nice strong white courier.

Yahdon Israel 41:48

Put the quote next to my face, like put me in the back of a classroom. But he says-

Traci Thomas 41:53

With Barack Obama, put it with Joe Biden, I don't know, do your thing!

Yahdon Israel 41:57

Do whatever do whatever this this, these bars, Lin is language to anybody. But he says on page 169, we still talking about the Black Panthers. And like the government's decision to try to wipe them out. Right, he says the government cannot afford to trust a single black man in this country, nor can they penetrate any blacks disguise or apprehend how devious and tenacious black patients can be in any black man that can appear to trust is useless to them, for he will never be trusted by the blacks. It is true that our weapons do not appear to be very formidable, but then they never have then as now our greatest weapons is silence. Right? Like this whole notion of like what it means to sometimes like we do not always have to look like we're doing the work that we're actually doing. Right? And the current political moment. And the current cultural moment, is that if you are not saying you're doing the work, then it's like, but are you doing the work and what's dangerous in his moment is you have people who I know are doing the work now, showing you what they have in their hands so people can can Oh, like I got I showed told you I had a royal flush. And it's like, that's not the point of poker. Right? You don't win by letting people know what you have in your hand. You win by playing the game and like now I'm just watching really good people betray their own principles and integrity to convince a bunch of lames that the cool, right? And it's like, and I got caught, I got caught up in that shit to like, oh, like, I'm not saying this, or I didn't say anything about that. And maybe and it's like, bro, you know what you're doing? Right? Right. And so-

Traci Thomas 43:37

It's like, you have to be able to trust in the silence. Like to not try to perform the righteousness.

Yahdon Israel 43:44

Right. And that's ended, because so much of it is like, you know, you're going to catch this person at this moment. And you're going to think, whatever you're going to think, which is what you're gonna think anyway. But what happens when I legitimize that thinking by engaging with it in a way that's like, oh, well, actually, I'm doing this, this and this to a person who really probably don't, not only doesn't fucking care, but it really is more of a thing of like, what are you doing, but even more? So? Is that me engaging in doing that with you means I'm not doing something I need to be doing? Right. And so what I mean, you know, to the point of this conversation until what this book does, is that so much of James Baldwin's grappling in his book is really with himself. And he's not just throwing stones and hiding his hand. He's like, literally, you know, this quote that fucking Truman Capote talks about when he's like, God, when when you get a gift, God gives you a whip. And that whip every time you crack it at somebody else, it cracks back on you back on you. Every interviewer can't take that whiplash like like that. You can't take that. That recoil is what informs why people don't swing as hard because they are afraid of what comes back. So they end up having the whip and not really swinging and and when they do it don't really do no real damage, like you said, like he's doing that he's taking, he's tackling the big as an individual. And because he's a writer, he's doing it on the page. And he's also doing in other ways, but I'm just seeing now. And this is what I want to talk to you about in terms of the language is like, the man never betrayed the writing. Like, the writing is difficult. But the man, you can't say he's not a writer. No. Whereas with us, you know, some some of these people who like have public platforms. And then they have books. And the books don't quite align with like, they're not a writer.

Traci Thomas 45:48

Right, right. I think like, like, okay, and to this point, and I think this is what he talks about in the book we have in the Eldridge Cleaver section where he talks about the artist versus the revolutionary. Yeah. Not everyone is a writer, do you? You know, like,

Yahdon Israel 46:03

I appreciate, you know, say that louder for the back.

Traci Thomas 46:07

I say this all the time. Because I because people always like, what are you going to write your book and I'm like, I'm not a writer, right? I have to write things. But not only am I not a good writer, I do not enjoy writing. Writing is not my passion. I love to talk. I love a performance. I love to think about things, but writing, that's not how I express it.

Yahdon Israel 46:25

Yeah.

Traci Thomas 46:25

But I think that that's interesting with this book, because he again, is at the height of his, you know, he is of his skill, he is coming into his fame. He is a person who people believe can have influence who who people believe has power, though he himself does not believe he has power and in the grand scheme of like, James Baldwin versus the FBI has no power. But I think like he's talking about what can a Malcolm X do? What kind of James Baldwin do, and those are different things, like people always say, like, the writer, like the pen is my sword and like, it's a little it's a little overplayed. But I think like, in this sense, yeah, the reason the revolutionary and the artists are at odds is because their tools are different. Their methods of engaging are different. But I think I would argue now, at least, like, you know, in this current social landscape, and in the last, I guess I'm old, as I say, 20 years, but I think I mean, 40 years, that, like the artists have taken over a lot of the cultural public imagination in a way that like, we don't have these same kinds of revolutionary figures that are known and household names, in the same way that artists are. And so I think that that's like something that I really took from this book that I found interesting was that like, you know, flash forward 50 years from when this book comes out, and, and, you know, Martin and Malcolm and Medgar are still, you know, Mark Martin, Malcolm X, Medgar, but like, there are so many writers who have at least not no one is Baldwin, but there are people who have tried who have had the opportunity. And I think that that's just like, thinking about how maybe art is, in some ways more controllable or palatable, then then individuals who, who become, you know, political, and cultural revolutionaries.

Yahdon Israel 48:29

Yeah, and part of and what and coming back to your point is one of the difficult things about even what you said, you know, it's part of the symptom of the as part of the symptom of the illness, right? It's like, well, even when you say something like we don't have that is like, the chat the real challenge is that we don't know what it is actually, because it's like, if they're doing the work that's they're doing the work.

Traci Thomas 48:53

That's what I mean by it's, like, easier to control that the artists have been lifted up because I think that there's there's mechanisms that can control that like, right, like, we think of the publishing industry, like who does get a deal who does get that attention and like that, that is part it's easier to control an artist than it is to control a revolutionary and if they are doing that work, like maybe we can kind of just like tamp them down or like we don't we don't lift them up in the same way we being sort of like the bad forces I think I'm saying we is you know, but But yeah, I think like we those people exist and they are doing the work but they're not being like celebrated and amplified in that same way.

Yahdon Israel 49:33

That's the point is like you don't do the work to be celebrated amplify.

Traci Thomas 49:38

That's not the why behind the revolutionaries work. But in the past, we have had figures like Martin Luther King, who was doing the work and was amplified.

Yahdon Israel 49:48

And got a bullet in his brain, right. And I had a heart that was like, twice his age. I'm saying this to say is like, that everything you're saying is to me is like what do What I assessed to be the issue is like you have people who call themselves writers, but they're not committed to actually writing. Right? You have people who call themselves activist, but they're not committed to activism, what they're committed to, is convincing other people that they're doing the thing, they're not committed to doing the things. So when you ask them about the things they do, they really can't even tell you very simply what they do, they can't describe it to you, they can't give you a methodology, they can't give you framework, they can't give you philosophy, they can't give you tangible things to lay out. And that's something very different. And this is the hard part from people who are doing the work who have no concern with getting invited to a Tom's dinner, or getting invited to the you know, getting a national, you know, NAACP Image Award, like none of these things matter to the people who are actually doing the work. And that's the hard part is because we've created these ways of acknowledging laborers, that isn't about the labor. Yes. And then people, this is what you know, we all fall victim to, there's times where I've like, as an editor, who knows the work they do to get the books out. And there's lists that I don't care about. But if I don't see a temple folk or a soil or any other book, you know, on the list, I fill away and then I have to, like, immediately break really a ship back end, bro, like you this is not, you did not do this for that. You did this for the reasons you did it for. And what I am blessed to have is that ability to self correct moments when I am out of step and what I mean by in addition to community. But one of the things that like I love about Baldwin, as a writer, but also with this book is like this is a big this book is about a failure. And what I mean by that his friend is still in jail by the time the book ends. Yeah, right. And for everything he tried to do all the connections he tried to pull to help his friend situation, it's like you learn is like, I'm barely able to keep my shit afloat. And that kind of honesty is not a cop out, right? Because it's not like he doesn't try legitimately, he actually documents the failure and renders it on the page as art. And I think that, because he knows at the end of the day, he's a writer, right? So it's like, if I get to the place where I am talking more about what I do, then doing what I talk about, I need to shut the fuck up and give him my word. And that's that's what I really like, I give this book to people a lot who say that they about the shit they say they're about. It's like, here's what it looks like. And part of what you said, you know, even if I take your reading of this book, to be a metaphor, is like, it's difficult. The shit don't resonate quite immediately, like the way you want it to. And then you kind of stumble through that second part. And then there's a moment where something kicks in, and then you're able, but if you had not Tracy committed to the labor of the heart, first half, you don't get to get that second act where it's like, Oh, I know this stuff. I recognize it. And that to me is the grant that's the beef that's the grappling like grapple with the page grapple with your shit.

Traci Thomas 53:28

Yeah. We before we just were like out of time, before we go, I do want to say one thing for listeners of this show and people who have been with me for a long time. You know, when you get to the end of the when you get to the end of the book, there's the little epilogue about Tony Maynard. And at the time of the book's publication, or what's the time that he finished writing like, I suppose Tony Maynard was at Attica. Yeah. And he was there during the Attica prison uprising, which is a topic that is one of my personal obsessions. We have done blood in the water on the show, we talked to Heather and Thompson, it is the book that made me start this podcast. So I did squeal and excitement for this tie in to the Stax history with the American history of my one of my most important and one of the most important historical events. I think, in American in modern American history. I like the I just I just loved it. And for people who don't know, Tony Maynard is eventually exonerated, his conviction is tossed out after the third trial, and then the prosecutor in 1974. So he ends up spending I think six years in prison for this crime he did not commit. But the fact that that happens two years after the publication of this book, right speaks to like, what the work is. Yeah. And then he and then he was willing to publish the book without knowing right? And no, like, that's the worst thing to do.

Yahdon Israel 54:48

That's the work right? It's like you don't fight because you think you're gonna win, you fight because you ain't about to get just man- You not about to get ragtagged.

Traci Thomas 54:57

Yeah, and he has a line in the book where Tony's like I didn't Do it on my soul. I didn't do it. He said, Well, on my soul, I'm gonna get you out. And when the book comes out on his soul, he has not done that. Right, you know, like, right again, like that it's a failure and that he's willing to publicly acknowledge that part of him. To us. Yeah, I mean, it's it is, I think anytime someone is willing to admit failure publicly, I find that to be brave enough, it should be but given the world that we live in, and especially as a black person, as a queer person in America, especially in the 60s and 70s, like to admit failure publicly in a document that people will be reading, if you're lucky for decades to come, which I think you know, it's the case here. Like, that's brave as fuck like, I'm like, I hope some of these episodes of the sack disappear, because I was wrong publicly.

Yahdon Israel 55:44

No. And but it's that that what happens when we don't show process? Yeah, and linking in, you know, like, I know, we'd run out of time. So the last thing I'll say, like linking bolt wins way of writing on the page to how I do my editorial work, is I'd spend a lot of time documenting in real time, the process of publishing. And one of the things we celebrate, right, like, you know, my claim to fame in his industry is my first book got nominated for a National Book Award. It didn't win. So we are celebrating a failure. I'm not saying that it's, I don't feel like I'm a failure. But what I'm saying is, is there is a high capacity for how we regard failure, and sometimes we don't think about it like that. Michael Jordan played 17 years, he wants six rings, he lost 11 years of his career, but we don't frame it that way. So failure is an indicative part of how we navigate but when you don't have an appetite for failure, then you you really don't get to benefit from the fruits of success. Right?

Traci Thomas 56:46

Well, it's one thing to fail privately. And it's one thing to fail publicly, right?

Yahdon Israel 56:52

I think for people who care about who think failed, failing means something other than it's all a part of the work when you work, and you don't care about how you look to anybody, right? Like you you focused on the work. So to your point, public or private, for the person doing the labor is like the labor is what's important. And that's right, the shift is like people care about, okay, how do I look? How do I present even when people present the L's it's like they present the L but the W is they only present it when the W is on the other side of it. Right? Right. Yes, yes. And what I've in this is why I'm saying the documentation is like I've been celebrating L in the grand scheme of publishing, because it's like, the book got nominated. But it's still a win for me. Because it's like I said it was going to do what it was going to do. But anybody who's objectively looking as like, but the book didn't win. And it's like, well, I didn't say the book was going to win. I said the book was going to get nominated. And I can I have learned to take joy in the else. Yeah. And that's really that, to your point of humility. It takes a lot of humility. It takes a lot of discipline, and a lot of faith to know that the elves really in the grand scheme of things are what set up the capacity for other people to radicalise themselves in a sense of taking more risk in areas where if they don't see a W immediately, they don't even try. Yeah, right. Yeah. It's like not good to come catch the mouse like.

Traci Thomas 58:26

No, totally. We always talk about the title and the cover. I don't think we have to talk about the cover because there's so many covers of this book, and I find it I don't even know which one is the original. I have the vintage one. And I got the same one as Yeah, but I don't really care for these covers. But the title Yeah, the title I Love and it's no name in the street and I love that the like little epigraph is his remembrance shall perish from the earth. And he shall have no name in the street. He shall be driven from light into darkness is chased out of the world. I mean, listen, job, job. Who know? I don't know, I just really liked the title. I think it is provocative when you see it. I like it. If it has a good ring to it on your mouth. No name in the street. I don't know. I just it's a good one for me.

Yahdon Israel 59:09

Yeah. On my end, what I love about it is that it's like, you know, shoot from the hood. You know, when somebody says you got no name in the street, it means you ain't got no motion. Like your name. Don't ring bells out here. Right? Yeah. So it's like you might who are you? Oh, my name is Donna. Who the hell is your dawn? Right? It's a way of saying like, whatever you whoever you are, and what that means. In the street. If you're not out in the streets, it means nothing. Right? Prove It, prove a you go. And that's how I that friction, friction. And it's like, you got to prove it to me. And I think that that is a great way to even think about how to allow yourself to engage with people who Oh, you don't know who that is. Who is that? Oh, that's so and so. Okay, so and so gotta prove to me who they are. Right like that name. Don't mean nothing to me until you show me that that name means something. And too often we look at names and we go oh, I can't do that, because that's so and so. And it's like, yes. What does that mean? I don't know. But it means something. And so we give these names a lot. And we don't even know the power we give up every day by not making people prove themselves to us and proving ourselves to ourselves as well. So like, yeah, this was fun. I like talking about books with you. You're a fun conversationalist.

Traci Thomas 1:00:22

This was fun. Thank you so much. So are you! This was such a joy. I feel like we got to do this definitely again.

Yahdon Israel 1:00:28

Nah, yeah, this was wild.

Traci Thomas 1:00:32

Everybody else, thank you so much for listening. Listen to the end of this episode to find out what our June book club pick will be. And thank you to Yahdon, and everyone else we will see you in the stacks.

Yahdon Israel 1:00:42

See you in the stacks!

Traci Thomas 1:00:51

Alright, y'all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening. And thank you again to Yahdon Israel for being my guest. And now it is time to announce the June Stacks book club selection. Don't kill me people. It is It Ends With Us, the 2016 romance novel by Colleen Hoover. This promises to be a hilarious, chaotic, and hateful book club conversation full of hot takes. We will discuss the book on June 26th. And you have to come back and listen on June 5th to find out who our guest will be. Also, if you want 10% off this book, go to repclub.com and use the code stacks10 to get 10% off It Ends With Us. If you love this show and you want inside access to it head to patreon.com/thestacks to join the stacks pack and check out my substack at Tracithomas.substack.com. Make sure you're subscribed to The Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can leave us a rating and a review. For more from The Stacks follow us on social media at the stacks pod on Instagram threads and tick tock and at the sacks pod underscore on Twitter. And you can check out our website thestackspodcast.com. This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

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