Ep. 305 Going from Pet to Threat with Uché Blackstock

Written By Cherie Marquez
Ep. 305 Going from Pet to Threat with Uché Blackstock

Physician, educator and author Uché Blackstock shares her New York Times Bestselling book Legacy: A Black Physician Reckons with Racism in Medicine. The book is both a memoir and an indictment of disparities in our healthcare system. We hear what legacy means to Uché, and how racism shows up in medicine for Black doctors. We also talk about her most beloved books, and the Pet to Threat phenomenon.

The Stacks Book Club selection for February is Viral Justice by Ruha Benjamin. We will discuss the book on February 28th with Uché Blackstock.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08
Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I’m your host Traci Thomas. And today is Valentine’s Day, which makes it an extra special day to welcome bestselling romance novelist and former fashion editor Tia Williams to the show. I had the pleasure of talking with Tia on a Patreon exclusive bonus episode of The Stacks Unabridged back in 2022 and today Tia is here in the main feed to talk about her brand new romance novel A Love Song for Ricki Wilde. The book follows an enchanting love story that develops between a free spirited florist and a mysterious musician in Harlem. The book is giving love, it is giving Black history, it’s even giving a little mystery too. We talked today about the rules of romance, why Tia wanted to write about the Harlem Renaissance, how her love of pop culture is such a huge inspiration for her work and the challenges of writing a fated-mates story. Don’t forget, Dr. Uche Blackstock will join us on February 28th For our book club discussion of Viral Justice by Ruha Benjamin. Everything we talked about on each episode of The Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. Alright, now it is time for my conversation with Tia Williams.

All right, everybody. Today is Valentine’s Day, which means we had to talk about romance. And there’s only one person I want to talk about romance with, which is my favorite romance author Tia Williams to welcome to The Stacks.

Tia Williams 2:36
Hi, thank you for having me. I love that I’m here on Valentine’s Day. It feels appropriate.

Traci Thomas 2:41
I mean, you released a book in February. I feel like maybe you had a hunch that you might get some Valentine’s Day press. So the book is the new one. It’s called a love song for Ricky Wilde. It came out last week. It is. Well you know what, why don’t you tell people what it’s about and everybody listening? We’re not going to spoil the book. Okay, so don’t worry, we’ve got your back. We’re not going to spoil it there. This book is easy to spoil. So we’re going to try our very best to make sure that nothing is ruined for you to eat in 30 seconds or so. Will you tell folks about the book?

Tia Williams 3:14
Yes. Okay. So it is about a free spirited florist from the South who escaped her aristocratic family moves to Harlem and opens a flower shop, which is her long, you know, her lifelong dream. And in Harlem, she comes across a very mysterious musician, it turns out that their lives are inextricably and mysteriously linked in all of these crazy ways. And there’s voodoo and leap your magic. And there’s a touch of magical realism, which is new for me.

Traci Thomas 3:46
Yeah. Okay. I want to talk about that. So let’s just start with the February 2020. For a bit all, the book takes place in February 2024. In a leap year, which spoiler alert, everybody, this is a leap year for us as well. When you have the idea for this book, did you have to wait so that you could publish it in a leap year? Or did this come to you sort of organically and you were like, Oh, wow, a leap years coming? This is great, because the way publishing works is it’s not like you can have an idea and publish it the next day. So how are you thinking about the Leap Year magic of the book and then publishing?

Tia Williams 4:22
Well, it’s funny, so it was always going to be now it was always going to be 2024. That’s when it was planned. You know, that’s when the book was set. But my book was due like a year and a half ago, which means that out last summer, so it’s just because I couldn’t get my book finished in time that it ends up coming out at the right time. Otherwise, it was going to be you know, like a summer book that took place in February.

Traci Thomas 4:52
I saw. Yeah, I see. I thought you had done some like really serious like, magic on your own end. So this book isn’t just strictly romance. There’s some historical fiction. How were you researching it? How important to you was factual accuracy. We get a lot of like Harlem factoids, music factoids, what was your process for all of that?

Tia Williams 5:20
So within this love story, you know, there’s a lot of elements. One of the elements is kind of this Harlem Renaissance backstory, this scandal that takes place during the Harlem Renaissance that affects our main characters today. So there’s I go back and forth. And I and I, as a longtime Harlem Renaissance and 1920s, Jazz Age, obsessive, I actually knew a lot of backs and the players and I knew who I wanted to be in it, you know, which real life Harlem Renaissance sort of icons, I wanted to be in it. I knew which places but what I didn’t know was Harlem itself. And if you don’t live in New York, that sounds crazy. I’m, I’m a Brooklyn girl, Harlem is so far away on the trip. In my early 20s, I dated a guy that lived in Harlem, and it was a long distance relationship. Like that’s how so I’m not that familiar with Harlem and Harlem heights aren’t that familiar with Brooklyn. So I got on the train with a notebook and walked around Harlem for several weekends as a tourist, you know, just learning the streets on understanding the vibe. And while I was walking around, I would notice, you know, you’re on some random street, and then you’ll see the tiniest most nondescript plaque on the side of a building, like, oh, yeah, Billie Holiday saying here when she was 14 in 1929. And that’s where she was discovered. And I was so inspired by the idea that you could be walking around the city. Old cities are like this, really. There’s, it’s almost like Pompeii, there’s a city on top of a city. There’s all this magic around us that we’re not we don’t have to be aware of if we’re not looking. And I wanted to bring that, you know, the past sort of moves with us kind of feeling in the book. And so yeah, and also the fun thing, when I was walking around Harlem, I had a map of Harlem, Renaissance, speakeasies and nightclubs. And so the addresses of all of these places and see what they were now and it’s like, Oh, my God, I’ve got this famous speakeasy now be a Walgreens, it’s just why, you know, so yeah.

Traci Thomas 7:30
That’s so crazy. I mean, that’s what’s really fun about the book is like the way that the Harlem Renaissance moments kind of come in in 2024. With the music stuff, there’s all these like little stories about songs that we love and know are those are real stories.

Tia Williams 7:47
No, okay, so here’s so without trying to spoil there. There’s someone in the book who has been involved with a lot of the making of famous pop music, you know, famous pop songs in history. And each song, you know, whether it’s Chaka Khan’s eight nobody or you know, a Chuck Berry song, I include these stories about how they were made. And that’s just, frankly, me being behind the music obsessive. That’s me on my 16th birthday asked him for this billboard Encyclopedia of all the number one hits, since billboards started recording them. So it was like 1953, or something rock around the clock. And on each each song got a two page spread. And this explanation, what was happening in pop culture that influenced the song, what the writer was thinking when they wrote it, how long the song charted, like all these trivia, and I when I tell you, I had I have that whole book memorized. And so up till 1992, I had all the number ones that have ever been recorded, memorized, and I just love knowing like the nuggets behind a song Who was the muse. So I made up a lot of that stuff. And I’m happy to hear that it sounded real. Because yeah, I really enjoy finding out stories behind songs.

Traci Thomas 9:16
It totally sounded real, because that’s the kind of stuff you like, find when you watch like a documentary. They’ll be like, oh, and then this like, random person did this. Or they were wearing these, like purple shoes. And you’re like, That’s so weird. And then you find out the backstory that they were made, you know, so it definitely felt real. I was trying to do research before this conversation and like trying to Google like, what’s the story behind Ain’t nobody and I was like, I cannot find it. Because how do you search for that situation? Like it’s like, impossible. Right? So it was fun for me to but I was like, I just gotta ask her. I’m sure it’s either real or it’s not. How have you found like, so part of this book also takes place during the Harlem Renaissance, and I’m wondering how you found trying your hand at sort of historical fiction Part of it did you find it hard to find your voice in another era? Because you write so like, I feel like you’re so current with your references and your slang and your pop culture? And I can tell that’s because you love pop culture. Clearly you’ve mentioned like so many things that you love already. But did you find it challenging to kind of tap into that authenticity of a previous time?

Tia Williams 10:22
That’s such an interesting question. And absolutely not, because I’m so well versed in the 20s. And it’s such a pop culture every time that I could have the exact same voice then, that I do now, you know, the movie stars that were at the speakeasies, the songs that were that people were listening to the cars, they were driving, I knew, you know, the designers they were wearing, it’s the same kind of talk that I talk, just, you know, with different references.

Traci Thomas 10:51
Yeah, totally. I just, I’m fascinated, because I think in the last like, few years, some of my favorite authors have written their first like, historical fiction. And I’m really fascinated by that choice. And, and what that like where that desire comes from, to kind of switch it up, or were you feeling like, I just want to try something different? Were you feeling like you’ve just had to write about the Harlem Renaissance? Or is there something like for authors about trying a new thing that feels like, I don’t know, like an obligation or like a right to like, I, I’ve made it, I’m gonna go back in time.

Tia Williams 11:26
For me, it just, I love thinking about who we would be if we were dropped into a different era. You know, my parents were teenagers in the 60s. And I used to be obsessed with the 60s, like, what would it have been like to, you know, listen to Motown and go to these, like basement parties. And, you know, I’ve always been interested in the idea that people have always been people, even in these, like black and white times that, you know, don’t really feel real to us, because we’re not in color, or we don’t have, you know, enough footage of you know, that time, um, luckily, in the 20s, we obviously had movies and photography, and but I wanted to see if I could have the same sort of vibrancy in a time that I have no relationship with. But it’s something that I’ve always done privately, like I’ve one of the first books I wrote, which has never seen the light of day was Reconstruction Era love story, that on purpose had absolutely nothing to do with Jim Crow, or the fact that everyone’s parents had been enslaved people. It was only a love story between two people who were of this time. And I honestly did the exact same thing. I you know, what were people listening to? What was like the hot song? What was the, you know, what were people wearing? How were the girls wearing their hair? Like, and it’s the same always?

Traci Thomas 12:58
Yeah, that’s that part of your process is like, that’s what anchors you to your characters?

Tia Williams 13:02
It does, I have to know what they look like, I have to know what I have to understand, like the full 360 of how they move through the world. Yeah, I love that. For me, that comes from being a beauty editor, you know, working in magazines, like you have to place everything in, you know, what color cheek? Was she wearing? Like, what, you know, does that like those things really tell you so much about? You know, was it Zara? Or was it? You know, they’ll shame Gabbana? God forbid, you know, probably shouldn’t have said that. But, yeah, you know, it tells you a lot about how someone moves in the world.

Traci Thomas 13:38
When we talked last time for the bonus episode, we talked about seven days in June. And we talked about a lot about your past as a beauty editor. And one of the things that you said that sticks with me now, especially when I read magazines, is how it helps you be a better novelist and romance novelist specifically, because there are those sorts of rules and romance because you had to describe coral lipstick every season, and say it differently and like you had to find a way to make a bold cat I knew again, even though a bold cat eye is not new, that is standard makeup practices. And I thought about that a lot when reading this book. Because I think for me, like what you get so right, as a as the kind of reader that I am, is that I believe that your characters like each other, like I don’t believe that it’s situational, and they need to like each other because it’s a romance novel. I actually believe that these people are drawn to each other and they’re a good fit. And I think as I was reading this I was thinking a lot about how you explained that helps you kind of flush out your writing and I guess that’s not really a question but just sort of knowing that about you made this book even more enjoyable because I was like right she really is like fitting those pieces to together.

Tia Williams 15:01
And this was actually really hard because it’s a fated mates, romance. If we’re talking tropes, like that’s the, that’s the trope. And when you get a couple that’s, like, fated to be together, the fun is in convincing the reader that these people belong together making a case for them. But if the case is already made, you could slip into lazy writing, and not really try to build those connections and be like, Okay, this is why they like each other because you really don’t have to do that. Because we know that it’s magically faded, right? Yeah, I had to work extra hard the whole time to be like, okay, but am I resting on this fate thing? Like, I really have to show that they like each other and whether or not they were faded? Like that doesn’t even matter. If they met each other at you know, the bodega, it would be them.

Traci Thomas 16:00
Yeah, yeah. And I feel like you did really get to that. I just really liked them. So I was like, really rooting for them. I don’t know, there’s something about like, as a as a new to romance person and a sort of a reluctant romance reader. It’s really hard for me, because a lot of times, I’m just told I’m supposed to like these people because they like each other. But I actually really liked these people separate and you spend a lot of time in this book. Not in a romance. Yeah, that’s true. Worry about that at all, because I as a non romance person, so I’m not a non romance person. I’m just a new romance person. I get a lot of pushback from romance readers when I talk about certain books, and I call it a romance. And they’re like, that’s not a romance. And as I was reading this book, I was like, people are gonna be mad at her because we don’t get to the romance too late. When we get to it. It’s all romance all the way. But there’s like 90 pages or something where it’s really just focused on our lead, Ricky, is that something that you’re sort of playing with? Do you know that about like, your reader? Or is that just how this story needed to be told for you?

Tia Williams 17:14
No, I think it’s just the way it needed to be told for me. And yeah, romance readers are, are very particular. And the biggest thing is that, you know, is there a happy ending? Because that’s really the definition of a romance. If you’re, if you’re coupled doesn’t have an Hga happily ever after, then it isn’t a romance. And so Ricky and as we do, and I think that it’s important, like you were saying before, you know, to to build the case for the characters, to show that they like each other to show who they are, just show why they’re so right for each other. That takes a lot of character building and world building. And I wanted this book to feel epic, I wanted it to feel grand, I thought it was worth taking the time to feel it all out and understand the two worlds that they come from. Because in my head, it was always like a, like an epic saga. You know, and those don’t happen in 180 pages.

Traci Thomas 18:20
Yeah, so yeah, no, I just, I think, because I’ve been harassed by romance readers, even though I’m like, so like, I’m like, why waste your time on me? I don’t know anything. I’m like, it must be really hard for romance authors, because romance readers are serious. And I understand that a lot of it comes from the fact that people shit on romance so much. So they’re protective of their thing. And I respect that, because I am particular about the things that I’m very passionate about. But I’m also like, this is a tough crowd.

Tia Williams 18:47
It really is. Yeah, you’ve got to, they have to make sure that they have all their elements, you know, yeah. And you do want to protect the stuff that you love. And there’s also, you know, in the romance community right now, like there’s a lot of sort of controversy about books that aren’t romance being labeled as romance because there happens to be like, a love story, but it’s like a, you know, it’s the third most important thing or maybe there isn’t a happily ever after, or all of a sudden that romance books are being categorized as rom coms, but there’s no comedy. So you know, they’re very particular about you know, getting the, the genre beats

Traci Thomas 19:30
Correct. Yeah. I want to ask you about the rom com thing, but I want to ask it to you about your cover. Because a thing that I see in romance covers is the cartoon thing. It’s everywhere. Every romance book looks like a rom com or a why a book these days. I don’t know enough to know why. But I do know that when I see your cover that has to flesh humans, black people, their faces you all have black people on the cover of seven days in June, you have black people, and I’m saying people as opposed to drawings, photos, I guess is a better way to say it. What is the thinking behind that for you? It’s clearly different than what the trend is right now. Why is that important to you? Is it important to you? Or does your publisher just like it? Like, what’s the deal? Because it’s like, I just got an email from Goodreads. I was like, books coming out. I didn’t have five romances, and it was all drawings and then this cover, and I was like, that’s different.

Tia Williams 20:29
This is a tough one. I think it’s just, I prefer these. I don’t know people love the illustrated covers. It’s a it’s a signal, you know, you sort of know what you’re getting, though. A lot of them are pretty misleading. Like, you know, there’s some extremely high steam, you know, books and they look like they’re gonna be a Lifetime movie. And it’s like, whoa, that’s that’s not it’s a very pleasant surprise, but it’s not what you would assume. I don’t know. It’s just my taste goes more towards realistic my my daughter who’s 15 gives me shit about this all the time. She’s like, and she lives in Barnes and Noble. And she’s always just like, covering up the anime you they should be illustrated. You know? I don’t know, for me, it’s just a matter of this is what I gravitate towards.

Traci Thomas 21:23
Yeah. I mean, I really like it. It’s a book for adults. I like seeing adults. I think that the cartoons look young. And I think that it’s misleading, also like that, like young people. Not that I care that young people read about sex, because like, Hello, we’re young people. We were really like, when we were young, we’re reading about sex, too. But I do think it like sort of, like can I think sometimes it can make sex and romance and relationships seem like more juvenile than it is or like, in a similar way that people should on romance, it’s sort of like is self deprecating to me and a little a little bit like that? We can’t just be like, Look, this book is about sex. And there’s people who have sex and it’s not like cartoons?

Tia Williams 22:01
Yeah, I think it you know, it goes in waves like 80s and 90s. We have the clinch covers with the, you know, the course, and Fabio and all of that. And, you know, then Chiclet happens and everything is pastel, and it’s there’s got to be a shoe on the cover. It’s sex and city, you know, and then there was the just a photograph of a man with ABS. And now we’re back to the, you know, an hour we’re, we’re illustrated. Yeah, I mean, and there’s so much so many. Like, if you go on Book, Twitter and book talk, like, the debates about this are intense, you know, either you love these covers, and you are going to fight for them, or you want to burn them off. So it’s hard to tell like what, you know, what’s going to resonate with a reader and, and that’s why for me, I stick to what, what I know, I like and hope that people, you know, find it.

Traci Thomas 23:01
Yeah, I think it’s such an interesting debate, especially like, as a sort of outsider to the community. Like, I’m just so fascinated, because it signals certain things to me that it probably doesn’t signal or does signal to a, like a serious romance reader as a person. And I read a lot of nonfiction. So I’m always drawn to books with photos on the cover. That’s my personal taste like if you show me like a burning building, and then words over and I’m like, Oh, I’m gonna read that. Like, that’s just my, my taste, because I also like, you know, you know exactly what I’m talking about. I love her. Yeah. But the other part of this cover is that you have two black people, and you have two black people who are the center of your romance. And that’s also true for seven days in June. And I think sometimes like, I when I look at romances, I see, oh, it’s a black romance, but then it’s an interracial couple or something, or they only put the black cover character on the cover, but they don’t put the white character on the cover. And I think that’s like, I don’t know if that’s a thing, but it feels like a thing that I’ve noticed. I don’t I don’t know if you can shed light on that at all.

Tia Williams 24:06
Well, that’s another big debate that’s happening in the community as well like that. There’s so many interracial romances that are billed as black romances because the woman is black, or I think it all comes down to the readers really just wanting to understand what they’re getting. And I think probably if there’s, you know, a simple just a black woman on a cover, and it’s an interracial romance. It’s probably something that readers would like to know, when they pick up the book. But yeah, I love to celebrate Black love, you know, I grew up not seeing it on, you know, reflected in media very often at all, and certainly not in the genres I was reading. Like I was a massive glamour sick girl. So it was Jackie Collins and Judith Krantz and some Daniel Steele, but she wasn’t sad. See enough for me. But those were my Yeah, like give me a super glam heroine and a kick ass job with a lot of money and she has a salacious romance like I love that stuff. And I was like, How come there’s no lab people in these books? When I my answer out here living this life, you know what I mean? Like so I’ve always wanted to represent represent that. So yeah, I’ve only so far written books with two black people that may change. But yeah, that’s what I like to focus on.

Traci Thomas 25:36
I love that so much. I have to know how you name your characters. There are so many good names in this book. How do you come up with them? Were these characters always with these names when you started writing this book? Or do you have like placeholder names? Did you change things like we have Ezra Brees Walker, we have Ricky Wilde we have Miss della, who is the most perfect character ever. And then we have Rashida Ray Regina Rashida Ray, is that right? The right order? We have the sisters, you know, I’m just like, how are you coming up with these people? In your last book? Even mercy? We had, you know, like just really good named Audrey the daughter. So like, how do you do it?

Tia Williams 26:27
I take it so seriously. Oh, like when a person is born is really important to me, you know, in terms of a name so like with So Ricki’s sisters are my age. And so I’m thinking of, you know, names of girls that I knew growing up names of people that were in my third grade class. You know what I mean? That kind of people that are my contemporaries, because the names, honestly like the, okay, in this podcast, I’m sounding so insane. Because every five minutes, I’m like, as a obsessive of this thing. Oh, but as an obsessive of this other thing. I’m obsessed with too many things. But I follow all these like name experts on Tiktok. There are actually people that you can hire, to name your baby. Like you tell them what your vibe is. You tell them or like it’s like, if you have twins, you can say this is you know, this is what I want, like a modern contemporary name, or I want like an old fashioned sign anyway, so I follow them. And I’m really interested in that. But anyway, so like with her sisters, they’re my age. So I grew up with Rashida look Rashida Jones. That’s what I thought of. Yeah, Regina Hall and Regina King like these are, these are names that I knew array in eighth grade, and I thought it was just like the coolest name for a girl like Ray. And Ray Don Chong. I don’t know if you remember her. She was a fabulous 80s actress. And Ricky seemed more seems like a younger name. Ricky seemed like the youngest. And also she they thought he was going to be a boy, she was going to be a boy. And so she’s named after her dad. Richard.

Traci Thomas 28:02
So of that little, that little moment.

Tia Williams 28:05
Yeah. And then with, you know, Della, she’s 91. Six, I think. And, oh, I got super into researching what we’re, you know, what were the cool names almost 100 years ago. And, you know, my favorite thing was naming her husband, because I got really into old black man names. And I was just thinking of like, all the old like, you know, all my great uncles and stuff, you know, names like Percival or. Or like, Lucius. So I was always, you know, elder black man names. It’s just, it’s fun.

Traci Thomas 28:40
Yeah, I love it. I love it. It’s so it’s so fun to read, because I’m like, Oh, I know exactly who that person is. You have a character named Tuesday, and she’s a former child actor. And I was like, of course she is.

Tia Williams 28:51
And I named her Tuesday because my mom for reasons unknown. Can’t say Tuesday, whose day is Tuesday.

Traci Thomas 28:58
That’s amazing. I have a mother who says nothing correctly. My whole life. I thought that it was a hotel. Apparently, it’s a hotel. I did not find that out until I went to college. When I was saying, Oh, my mom, we had one of my mom’s hotel. And people were like, What are you saying? I’m from California? Like, we’re not like Southern, you know, like, sometimes, like certain regionalisms. Like you say things different. No hotel, motel.

Tia Williams 29:21
I was gonna ask you where she’s from. That’s funny.

Traci Thomas 29:23
She’s from Los Angeles. I gotta ask you that. What was the hardest part for you about writing this book? And then what came really easily?

Tia Williams 29:33
The hardest part? The hardest part, like I said before, was trying to make sure that I wasn’t resting on the fact that they’re faded. You know, that was hard. Because if that’s looming in the background, you know, it can just seemed like, Well, this was supposed to happen anyway. Like, you know, you’ve just shown up in a store and you’ve been told that these people are supposed to be together instead of being shown that they’re supposed to be together.

Traci Thomas 30:00
But how do you know if you’re resting? Like, is that something between you and your editor? Or is that something when you read it back? And you’re like, I haven’t made this point enough, like, how do you as the creator know that what you’ve done previously isn’t what it needs to be.

Tia Williams 30:15
I think that’s when having a great editor really helps. My editor Seema Manian was so good at this, you know, she would put in a note like, Okay, but what were they feeling in this moment? Like, why when he said that, that that triggers something in her Why did that make him fall more in love with her in this moment, and she really pulled the emotion out that made it feel really real. Yeah, great editor’s key. Everyone needs.

Traci Thomas 30:46
Yeah. And then your other quote came easily.

Tia Williams 30:49
The dialogue. always my favorite thing, I love the be witty banter, a dialogue. So those are those are my favorite parts.

Traci Thomas 31:00
I like that. Is there anything that’s not in the book that you wish was?

Tia Williams 31:05
So many Harlem Renaissance characters that I wanted to write more about, like, Gladys Bentley, who was this famous drag king, and she was one of actually might have been the first woman to first black woman to run her own club nightclub, you know, and she was such a huge fixture on the scene and so important to queer history. But, you know, there’s only so much time.

Traci Thomas 31:32
Yeah, yeah, I mean, and you have, and you also have the constraint of like, we have to stay, you know, with these people, like, we can’t get too in the weeds. Which I think is hard, like a hard part about romance, for sure. And you’re really busy. You’re everywhere. I feel like you are a really busy person. How do you make time to write?

Tia Williams 31:54
This is always a tough question. Because it’s not it’s, if you want to write you write, you know what I mean? Like, this is the question I have for people who work out, you really wake up at five, wanting to run or what? And it seems impossible to me, because that’s not something that I do. I mean, I wish I could, but I obviously don’t prioritize it. Because if I did, I would wake up at four and I would run you know what I mean? It’s just a matter of if this is important to you can do it. Like even if you have to stay up later than everyone else in your house, or get up before everyone else in your house in my in my life and stay up later. I write the best one. Everyone is asleep. How late? Well, I just turned in a book on Monday, and I turned it in at 5:30am. But it’s good. It feels like your sneak like you’re getting away with something like you’re stealing, like everyone’s sleeping. But you’re we’re I don’t know, somehow that really, really works for me. I know, some some early morning writers that feel the same way on that side of things. For me, it’s staying up later.

Traci Thomas 33:05
I hear that a lot from people on the show, either early morning or late at night. But then when do you sleep?

Tia Williams 33:11
Well, I have the privilege of finally having a kid in high school who can take herself to school, who is old enough to ride the train to school and get home by herself. And so I can sleep till noon, and it’s fine. You know, my husband on the days he has to go into the office, he shakes his head and you know, but I don’t have to get up for anyone anymore, which is amazing.

Traci Thomas 33:36
I wish that I was there I have four year old so I am in the extreme must be awake the moment you are awake phase but one day One day I too will set my children away from me and I will lay in bed like a queen. In addition to writing late at night, do you have other things that you’re particular about and your writing habits? Like how many hours a day do you write every day? Are you more of a free spirit to play music? Do you have snacks and beverages? Rituals, candles? Tell us about it.

Tia Williams 34:07
I have rituals. They are so tacky, but this is what it is. It’s Reese’s Pieces, and it’s real housewives have either New York, Beverly Hills, or Atlanta and this is why I have seen these seasons so many times that it’s just like verbal wallpaper. Almost. And it just feels like White Noise. Hearing these women Yap away and grow tables and yell at each other. I love it. I love it. They’re my friends. I’ve known them for 15 years. It’s fabulous. So instead of music, that housewives or sweet music to my ears, Reese’s Pieces, not the cups. I sit at the dining table, not my desk. And yeah, that’s about it. I don’t set an expectation for writing every day because I have chronic migraines and they’re, you know, that makes my schedule. If I make a schedule that makes it very hard to keep. So instead of that, I look at a week and I say, after I five chapters, whenever those five chapters come is up to you, ma’am, but they have to be done by Sunday. So that feels more feasible for me.

Traci Thomas 35:16
Yeah. I, I’ve always wondered this about romance authors, because you’ll be churning out books, a lot of them quickly. What is the timeline for a romance novel? Because I know, it’s gotta be different than these literary fiction where it takes some authors like eight years to write a book. I’m like, every year, there’s something so what is that timeline look like?

Tia Williams 35:38
It’s really, really hard. And, you know, it is an honor to have even readers that want your books every year. But we research just as much as literary fiction does. We could write literary fiction. Could they write us? No?

Traci Thomas 35:59
Yeah, it definitely feels like it’s a trade off that it’s like, there is a voracious, rabid, excited, enthusiastic audience for romance in a way that like, if you write a romance novel, and it is good, or even like, Okay, people will put eyes on it, they might not like it, they might not read your next thing, but there is that community. Whereas with literary fiction, I think, you know, that’s not there. Like, there’s no, you know, I happen to be in the book community. So I do know, there’s a small community, but it’s not like romance.

Tia Williams 36:36
Ah, it’s nice. And the thing is, they will read your next book, if they loved your last book, you know, it is really a dedicated community, it’s wonderful. You know, your, your goal is to be a, what do they call it? Not auto buy. Yeah, auto buy, you know, that you this person comes out with a book, and you don’t even know what it’s about, and you buy it. And, you know, every time you write, you hope that you’re convincing someone that you’re good enough to be that for them. Yeah, it’s I love our community.

Traci Thomas 37:13
I mean, it’s interesting, I guess, because you could probably speak to this because your last book was a Reese Witherspoon book club Peck. And I mean, I think everyone listening to the show knows that being picked for a celebrity book club is huge for an author and a book, and it gets it out to new audiences. But when you come from a romance community, and you come from a place where people have certain expectations, was it challenging, being brought out to a new audience at all, like having to deal with people like me, who picked the book up not really knowing a lot about romance and being like, what’s happening, like, you know, is that challenging for you kind of like stepping outside, I think, I would assume, ultimately, it’s great because more people are reading your book, and more people are welcomed into the fold. But also, you’re probably getting different feedback outside of maybe what you’re used to.

Tia Williams 38:00
It isn’t challenging, because like you said, the more eyes on you, the better. It’s so exciting to have people you know, who aren’t familiar with, you aren’t familiar with the genre, to have them kind of be recruited as a result of something you wrote. It’s really exciting. What kind of makes me go a little bit is the amount of people that are like, I don’t even like romance, but I look like it’s like not not the flex you think it is to do that, you know, and it makes me want watched myself. Now, when I talk about certain genres or like something I’m watching on TV, or, you know, I don’t I don’t really like true crime. But this I like, it’s why put it down. And also, here’s some news. If you like this, then you do like it.

Traci Thomas 38:58
I mean, I you heard me say that earlier in this conversation. I’ve been working on that too, because it’s not that I don’t like romance. I’m just new to romance. So I’m still figuring out what I like. But my gut is to say, Oh, I don’t like romance, but that’s not true. I do I like your books. Like, I think I think what it is is that I like books that sort of play with the genre a little bit more. And I think that’s true for almost every kind of book I like regardless of genre I don’t really like except for like straight true reported nonfiction. I do really like like old white guys just like telling me the story that happened. But aside from that, like I really liked you know, the quake game as a romance novel that I know is controversial because that played with like, what is a happy ending? Like, what is a love story? What is a central like, so for me, that was fun, but I do have to constantly course correct and stop saying I’m not a romance reader, because it’s not true.

Tia Williams 39:52
There’s a specific type of romance that you like or that you know, and that’s really what you’re saying.

Traci Thomas 39:58
It’s interesting it is that like or or just like, put it down sort of like, oh, I don’t like this thing.

Tia Williams 40:03
That’s the kind of, I don’t say red flags. It’s not that deep. But that’s always kind of what I think like, you don’t have to put it down to say that you liked this book.

Traci Thomas 40:11
It’s okay. Yeah, yeah. Let me ask you this. What’s the word you can never spell correctly on the first try?

Tia Williams 40:20
Um, success. And the only way I know it is from cheerleading. succ-E-S-S! I can’t tell if every time I write it, that’s what I’m going through in my head.

Traci Thomas 40:32
I love that. Um, did you always want to be a writer?

Tia Williams 40:37
Yes. Always. There was never any other option.

Traci Thomas 40:41
Did you always want to write romance?

Tia Williams 40:45
Yeah that wasn’t an option, either. You know, a Stephen King. Say this was Stephen King said that, you know, he has wrote this great book on writing, which is like, yeah. And he was like, a horror writer, comedy writer, a Western writer could, you know, drive past a car wreck and see it all through a completely different lens and write a completely different story about what they’re looking at. And my lens has always been love stories always. No matter what, and I’m always thinking about anyway, like, walking along the street, you know, walking down the street, I look at people and I’m like, oh, you know, second date. You know, I’m always thinking about the, you know, when I meet people older than me, that are in a relationship. I always want to know how they met. What’s keeping them together? You know, or I tried to decide on my own Oh, they’re together for the kids, girl, divorce him go find someone who loves you correctly. I mean, I’m always That’s always where my mind has gone.

Traci Thomas 41:49
That’s so interesting. I love that. I love that. It’s something that I’ve picked up on sometimes, as I mentioned, I’ve read a lot of nonfiction is sometimes I can feel nonfiction writers writing through a lens of genre, like essay collections. I love that.

Tia Williams 42:08
Yeah, they totally do all the time. You can see it you can pick it up when you’re reading nonfiction, like what their vibe is, what they’re inspired by, you know.

Traci Thomas 42:17
Well, let me ask you that to you. What are you reading? What are you inspired by?

Tia Williams 42:21
So as I was saying, I was just turned in a book on Monday. So I haven’t really been reading a lot because what I read when I write I start sounding like whoever I’m reading. But just in general, like the the well, that I’m dipping into now is like con artists, anything having to do with Grifters and scammers and con artists I am obsessed with I love the guest by Emma Klein. That came out last year. I’m watching Grizelda right now about what I’ve always been interested in anyway because of Cocaine Cowboys and all that. But I’m just like, like the balls on this woman, like who are these people that are just like, yeah, elect me, I can I can do all this. I can make all this happen. I can go to sleep and not be scared for my life or scared that I’m gonna be found out. You know?

Traci Thomas 43:14
Yeah, I have two book recommendations for you based on this information. One is nonfiction. It’s the Patrick Radden Keefe book rogues. It’s an essay collection. And each essay is about a different. It’s like the subtitle is like con artists, scammers and bad people. It’s phenomenal. But the other one is a forthcoming book. It comes out in July. It’s a little bit of a wait, but it’s danzi Senna’s new book colored television. It’s not fully scammers, but it is definitely got that like people walking into the room with a kind of competence where you’re like Mitch, where Who are you like what is going on? And she writes that tension, I think is how people she writes thrillers-

But about not high stakes things. Like yeah, you know, like, it’s like there’s no murder. There’s no like credit card fraud. There’s no you know, stolen children. It’s like, I’m trying to get a book published, but the stakes are just like insanely high.

It’s so good.

Tia Williams 44:10
Oh, I love it. Okay, I’m gonna preorder.

Traci Thomas 44:13
Yeah, it’s so good. It’s so good. It’s not out for a while, but I’m obsessed with her. She’s like, really speaks to my heart. So. Okay, so you turned in a book? Can you tell us anything about it?

Tia Williams 44:21
So if anyone who’s listening has read seven days in June, they’re the main character has a 12 year old daughter who is very precocious. And so the book I just turned in as a YA novel about that character, Audrey, but she’s 16. It’s the summer after junior year in high school. And she realizes that she’s all the things you know, she’s checked off all the boxes president of the class. She’s the president of debate club. She’s this she’s that, but she doesn’t know how to have fun. So she hires this guy that goes to a rival high school to teach her how to have fun with the summer.

Traci Thomas 45:00
I was so excited. I love that character so much. I’m so excited. For people who love a love song for Ricky Wilde. What are some books you might recommend to them that are in conversation with what you did here?

Tia Williams 45:11
Definitely. Isabel Wilkerson’s The Warmth of Other Suns, which is about there’s several stories about people who lived through the Great Migration. And that’s where as his story came from Zora and Langston, or maybe it’s called Langston Zara. It’s like it’s a historical fiction based on their very, very volatile, fabulous, you know, relationships really good one. And there’s a movie called Dead Again, which really inspired this sort of back and forth structure with Kenneth Branagh and I can’t remember the woman, his wife, she won an Oscar anyway. It’s called debt again. And it’s these two people who meet in present day, but they realize that their relationship is like a repeat of something that has happened before in the 40s.

Traci Thomas 46:06
Emma Thompson, Emma Thompson, I’m like, Hello. Yeah. And they did Much Ado About Nothing together.

Tia Williams 46:12
There’s a lot together. Yeah, I can’t. I didn’t. Sorry, Emma. It’s okay. It’s okay.

Traci Thomas 46:18
Don’t worry. We all forget people. I can’t remember any. I just watched Oppenheimer and he’s in it. And I was like, Who is that? Man? I know that man. And then I had to google it. Okay, here is my last question for you. If you could have one person dead or alive read this book. Who would you want it to be?

Tia Williams 46:36
Oh, I love that question. feels extra fitting for this book. Adelaide Hall, the showgirl. She was one of the first black showgirls on Broadway. She was a huge Harlem Renaissance fixture. She’s actually in the book. So I would like for her and a character is named after her in the book. So I think it would be cool if she read it to see if he would think that I got the arrow right.

Traci Thomas 47:06
I love that. All right, everybody. Happy Valentine’s Day. A love song for Ricky Wilde is out in the world. Now you can get it wherever you get your books. If you have not read seven days in June man, I also recommend that you can also read a perfect fine but has a screen adaptation to there’s lots of Tia Williams if you read the book and you love it, you have plenty of reading to do. Tia, thank you so much for being here. This was so fun.

Tia Williams 47:31
I love talking to you anytime. Thank you for having me.

Traci Thomas 47:34
And everyone else, we will see you in the stacks

All right, y’all. That does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening. And thank you again to Tia Williams for joining the show. I’d also like to say a huge thank you to Cameron nessa and Andy Dodd for helping to make this conversation possible. Reminder, Dr. Uche Blackstock will be back on The Stacks on February 28th to discuss our book club pick Viral Justice: How we grow the world we want by Ruha Benjamin. If you love this show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks pack. Make sure you’re subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you’re listening to Apple Podcasts, be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from the stacks, follow us on social media at the stacks pod on Instagram threads and tik tok and at the stacks pod underscore on Twitter. And you can check out our website thestackspodcast.com This episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. Our graphic designer is Robin MacWrite. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Cherie Marquez https://www.cmediacollective.com/
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