Ep. 304 Erasure by Percival Everett — The Stacks Book Club (Zach Stafford)

Written By Cherie Marquez
Ep. 304 Erasure by Percival Everett — The Stacks Book Club (Zach Stafford)

Vibe Check host Zach Stafford returns to discuss our January book club selection, the 2001 satirical novel Erasure by Percival Everett. Our conversation today delves into ownership of art and stories, what the joke of the novel is, the title of the book, and we even dabble (spoiler-free) into the movie based on the book, American Fiction.
There are spoilers for the book, Erasure, on today’s episode.

Be sure to listen to the end of today’s episode to find out what our February book club pick will be.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon

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TRANSCRIPT
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Traci Thomas 0:08
Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I’m your host Traci Thomas and today, the wonderful Zach Stafford from the Vibe Check podcast and famed journalist is back in The Stacks. We’re here to discuss our first Stacks book club pick up 2024, the bold and hilarious satirical novel Erasure by Percival Everett. The book was published in 2001 and tells the story of Polonius Monk Ellison, who is a black writer, who gets a little bit upset about the way that Black literature is being published. He goes on to write an unintentionally successful novel that parodies popular black fiction. The book is also the basis of a brand new film called American Fiction, which was written and directed by Cord Jefferson. Today, Zach and I talk about the book Erasure, We talk about what worked for us, what didn’t. We talk about the novel within the novel, and we also talk a little bit about the adaptation of the film American Fiction. Here’s what you need to know, there are spoilers of the book, Erasure, but there are no spoilers of the movie American Fiction so if you haven’t seen the movie, you can definitely listen today. Make sure you listen to the end of today’s episode to find out what our February book club pick will be. Everything we talked about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. All right now it is time for my conversation with Zach Stafford about Erasure by Percival Everett.

Alright, everybody, we are back. I am joined again by my favorite person on earth. It is Zach Stafford. Welcome back to The Stacks.

Zach Stafford 2:55
Oh my god, thank you. I’m so happy to be back with my favorite host on the earth.

Traci Thomas 3:01
Oh, my gosh, I love it. Don’t tell your co host that you like. And it’s book club. And we’re talking about Erasure by Percival Everett, his 2001 novel, I will give a quick sort of synopsis now, which is that the novel follows Thelonious Monk Ellison, who is a writer, a black writer who is writing some weird fucking shit, and nobody likes it. And he gets mad. And he’s like, I’m gonna write, quote, unquote, black novel called My Pafology. And the novel, of course, takes off. And it’s about that journey, as well as the journey with him and his family and his mother who has early the early stages of Alzheimer’s and the death of his sister and his father’s suicide and his brothers coming out and just juicy family drama. So that’s the book, Zach, we always start here. Generally, what did you think of Erasure?

Zach Stafford 4:02
Generally, I loved it more than I thought I would, you know, when you told me we were going to read this book, I thought, well, I should because you know, I love the film that it’s based off of, it’s all anyone’s talking about in terms of, like, you know, Oscar worthy things. So, you know, I tried it whenever there’s a big movie, I tried to read the book. So I felt like it was like homework for a minute. And then I started it and I read it in a day. I think it was like, I literally just like scrolled away and just dove in. And I think you know, it will get probably deeper into this. I love that I read two books and one that there is like the fictional book that he is Yeah, topology, which we’ll talk about, but I love that I love the world that we were kind of diving into and I just love it like what it asks of a lot of us that are black, working in institutions that we have complicated relationships with and what an asking us what we produce and who is it for and how does it help them like I think all of that was so cool. So yeah, all in all, I loved it loved It loved it so much. What did you think?

Traci Thomas 5:03
I also loved it I we did personal Everett’s novel The Trees on this podcast in 2022, I believe as our book as a book club pick. And so revisiting his work. And this is his early, an earlier novel. And he’s just so sharp, and so funny. And this novel felt like it could have been written last year. But it was written in 2001. And it’s just like, it’s so refreshing to read about things that feel current from the past, because it’s a reminder that like, none of this is new. And while it might be new for me, and I’m experiencing it new, it’s not actually a new conversation or a new argument. I also am a huge fan of any novel where the author slash Narrator slash character are disdainful. Like, this book just drips in disdain. And I just that like sarcastic like, You’re a fucking idiot. And the Percival Everett vibe is just so thrilling to me. And then what I also liked about this, and we will talk about the movie, but what I liked about the book that I thought was missing from the movie, is that the book is smarter than I am. Like, there were parts of the book where I was like, I don’t know that I understand this. And like, What is he trying to say with this, that I really like feeling challenged in that way. And for me, the movie didn’t have that. Like, I was like, I get it with the movie. And so we’ll talk more about it and we won’t spoil the movie, but we will spoil the book. So if you have not read the book and you want to read the book, pause now read it and come back, we will not spoil anything from the movie. So if you haven’t seen the movie yet, you can keep listening. Okay, now we’re gonna dive in. I want to start with the epigraph, which is a Mark Twain quote that says, I could never tell a lie that anybody would doubt, nor a truth that anybody would believe. And it’s such a good start for a book that’s all about truth and lies and fact and fiction. And also, I love it because he’s got a new book coming out this year personal ever it called James, which is a retelling of Huck Finn by Mark Twain told from the perspective of Jim, the enslaved person. Just like love that. Yeah, yeah, that’s incorrect. Oh, just hot tip. I’m told it’s like the best book of the year. I’m told it’s fucking amazing. So everyone, go get your copy of James.

Zach Stafford 7:29
That’s what happened to the- Wasn’t there a controversial statue of James that was just taken down? I’d have to look into it. But yeah, there was like there’s been what’s amazing of this is that there’s been a lot of conversation around like, the art world and how they treat that book and kind of how they did in the slave character. And it’s I love that we’re giving that person a real voice and story through personal whatever. Yeah, it’d be so cutting.

Traci Thomas 7:53
That’s so good. Yeah, I can’t wait. That’s all I wanted to say about the epigraph. I didn’t have more to say I just liked it. And I thought was funny. Um, so okay, what I do want to talk about is the balance in the book between the satire of my pathology and monk as an author, and then the sort of like, human tender side of his family and the personal stuff. You saw the movie first. So you kind of knew to expect that I had no clue that the book was going to be so tender, so filled with interiority, and I’m wondering, like, how you how that helped you? Or didn’t help you? Like, understand the idea of erasure?

Zach Stafford 8:37
Oh, that’s such a good question. So I think I was really surprised that the interiority of monk in his love for his family and the family dynamics and how complicated and crushing they were depending on whose relationship you’re talking about. were true to the book itself, because I feared that the book was going to be this really like cutting satire that’s really brilliant and academic. And then the book is a boiled down version of that and they heighten the family drama to make it more accessible. But that’s not the case is it the both get like family drama and both and admit in some ways I like erasers usage of family and how like his sister’s threaded throughout, even after her death and ways that you know, the movie doesn’t. So I think for me, that’s what the book felt the most real was that I know so many academics that are creating at this high level thinking theoretically thinking about the abstract pneus of blackness and black literature, but are also dealing with like the very order ordinary and mundane tragedy of life as a person with family getting sick, family members not getting along. So I think, you know, it was it was really beautiful to see it tracked against, you know, the satire of my pathology, which was another family story of someone you know, the hope that characters like many baby mama has and really just wants to be loved by his family. This same way that was month but so, so yeah, for me, I really thought it was. It was great. It gave like relief in what I think so much about what it did and what this type of accessibility within the stories about race and structures does is you get to like hear him talk about like the state of the black writer and how no one cares. And then it’s next to like him being deeply cared about his mother and him deeply caring about her in the family. So it’s kind of these like, at times, contradictions like there’s so much love in his life that he doesn’t feel the love. But that’s how we all feel you know, it’s we’re all complicated messes.

Traci Thomas 10:38
For me, what I thought was really nice about having the satire alongside with like this more like I don’t know straight, like versus comedy is like, personal Everett is showing us what story we could have. All black authors didn’t have to make art about being black. Not that his family story isn’t about blackness because it is because any story about any black person or black character is about blackness and does deal with race. And like we could talk about, you know, dementia and Alzheimer’s being like more prevalent in black community and all those things. But I liked that instead of being like, Monk as a person too. And like going through things and whatever. He’s basically putting up these two worlds right next to each other and saying, like, all of like, this story deserves to be told just as much of the story about like fighting against racism and art and like this is, this is blackness as art and like blackness on display. And all of these things are just as black as having four baby mamas, or running from the police or whatever stereotypes. And I think that like, doing it this way, showing us like really showing us instead of telling us and giving equal weight to the stories, really stark like really exemplifies that point. He’s like very clearly saying to us, like, Listen, I want to tell a story of a middle class or middle upper class, black educated family that has nothing to do expressly about race. And like, that’s the book I want to write. And I’m being told I can’t and like I just I loved him doing that. I do wonder if in 2020 for that book, this book feels dated a little bit in that way. Because we have so many more stories, and not just middle class, but also like middle aged like monk is like 40 or a tray. And like, we just like don’t so many so much literature about black people is about like younger black people or told from like a much older character like looking back on the past. And like just having this like middle aged guy just like, do middle aged shit like deal with an ailing parent. I just I really, I really made the satire saying, guess what I’m trying to say?

Zach Stafford 13:01
Yeah, no, I think I think you’re so right. And you know, why I know you’re right is I can think of a few other ways that this book could have and most likely probably was being pushed to go, which is, you know, I was the publisher. And I heard, you know, the pitch was I’m gonna write a book, it’s about this writer who’s not very well known, who writes this, like, satire that breaks out becomes this phenomenon, and becomes like, famous overnight and is, you know, and then is thinking about his own state, the state of literature, I would think you’d focus more on like the fame and the like, he got rich, he’s not running around town, he has all this access. And he’s having this a crisis of, you know, of identity because of wealth. And success in the movie goes more into that the book isn’t as interested in that as much about the the kind of the reward for selling out. It’s really interesting, like the process of selling out and the process of dealing with these two truths at once. And how do you sit in a body at a point of contradiction in? Is it a contradiction? Or like him? Can you hold all these things at once? And I thought that was really smart. Because there’s like a way in which like, you know, the Hollywood version of this is the glamorous like, rich guy gets cars, fooling everybody in this movie, this book is interested in that.

Traci Thomas 14:14
Because like, the interesting question, I think, to personal ever, but also to me, and it’s probably why this book does work is because I’m not actually interested in what it’s like to get famous, right? I’m so much more interested in what it’s like to decide that you’re going to do this thing that feels icky to you, because it’s a joke or a bit and then what happens to you when you realize that your little joke is not being taken as a joke and like, what does that do to you as an artist? And like, I think he gets at it in the book. I think there’s a part where he sort of questions like, what how does or maybe I don’t know, I wrote it down. It might not have even been in the background. It just been something that came to me but like, how does monk feel about writing in an industry where my pathology is the greatest thing is like, spread, right? Like, and I think about that a lot too. It’s like, I mean, I work in adjacent to publishing not technically in publishing, but like I work in the book world. And there are so many times where a book that I think is like, bad, like not good, or like harmful or racist or homophobic or whatever is like allotted. And I am like, why am I here? Like, what is that? And so like that question, and I’m sure like your your journalists, like, you’ve worked in media for so long, I’m sure like, that has come up for you to where something happens. And you’re like, Why do I even want to be part of this?

Zach Stafford 15:37
Yeah, yeah, that’s something I feel I felt so deeply when I began my career, because you have these examples of people who sell out, you know, I remember I had a moment where I’ll say this, I won’t name names. But I remember I met with a person, a colleague at Fox News, and I was doing MSNBC at the time. And he said to me, oh, you should come to Fox, they let us get custom suits here. And they do all these amazing things. And I thought, well, you’re at Fox, like, yeah, you have a bigger audience, but you’re at Fox, and you’re selling out. So you know, you’re always told when you work in media, or the arts that you know, if worse, comes to worse, just like sell your ethics up the river and like go jump into the sea. So then when you start to fight for a career around the thing that you care most about, you do have this crisis of conscious of like, okay, so I’m fighting so hard to be in this place. But for who? And for what if, like, most people want this other thing? And what does it mean that I’m not this other thing? What does it mean that my story doesn’t look like, you know, the my pathology story, which is very much a story of someone living in Compton, that is like something you would have watched in the late 90s with, like the movie Friday, it was like very like that world, right? It’s like, how do you live in a black body that isn’t like that? And how do you create from a black body that isn’t that so I think it just was really, really it. I think it touches a nerve for a lot of people like us and and it’s why core Jefferson took it on because he you know, he grew up in a mixed race family, he went to he was college educated, he worked as a journalist successfully transitioned to a TV writing career that he’d never lived in this world that you know, people want to see a black director create from. So he’s trying to find his own way through using you know, eraser. So and it makes me think a lot about the fact that the book, My Pafology is satirizing is Push.

Traci Thomas 17:24
“A Novel by Sapphire.”

Zach Stafford 17:29
Which like, when we were younger, it was a phenomenon. I mean, it became Precious. But you remember when it came out? It was huge deal.

Traci Thomas 17:36
I don’t remember when it came out. I do remember I only remember Precious. And like that whole thing.

Zach Stafford 17:43
That’s yeah, I think I probably maybe it wasn’t because I was probably too young. When it came out. I think it was a big deal. I think what precious came out push was everywhere with the movie. And they made us read it in school. And I remember just being so confused by why is this the thing that all these white people are obsessed with reading about black people and and understanding me. And then the movie itself precious, which you know, gave a few people an Oscar and did a great job, you know, has had a lot of criticism. So it’s interesting to have, you know, arratia, directly critiquing a book that is maybe one of the more famous black novels to come out in the past few decades.

Traci Thomas 18:19
Yeah, so for people, so push came out in 1996. This book was written in 2001. But it’s set in I think, 1995. So it’s in a pre push world, that monk is living in, but personal ever it is reflecting back on this, this sort of like literary moment. One of the things that like I struggle with with this book, and the movie, and like a lot of art, by black artists who are critiquing white institutions, is this thing that like when middle class are well off, black folks get like racism done by the whites, they punch down on poor black people. And like, the joke becomes poor or working class black people, and like the performance of, of like a certain quote unquote, type of black person. And that’s the joke. And I think that personal ever is sort of doing something slightly different. But certainly in the movie, that’s the joke. And in a lot of other art, that’s the joke. And I just, it’s, it’s hard to grapple with, like I struggle with it because I understand that it’s like illustrative of a bigger problem, but also like, why don’t we just make fun of white people? Like, why don’t we just punch up like, why are you punching down and I? I don’t know that I have an answer. But like, when I saw the movie, it was so clear that the laughter was segregated as funny. Like it would be like, certain jokes, all the white dudes. Oh, and I was sitting next to my white husband who did Don’t laugh once because I think he was feeling. Yeah, he was like, I don’t want to get caught up in this. And then on the other side of me were two black women. And then there were two black people in front of me and four white people behind me. And it was literally like, the black people would laugh. And then the white people would laugh. And so I just, there’s something about like, what is the joke? Who is the joke, Vaughn? And why?

Zach Stafford 20:24
And you know, I love this so much. Because you know, what this makes me think about is, I saw the film for the first time at the savannah Film Festival for scat, so a very white and I was there with cord and the judges of this festival in the festivals, like famously pretty wide in people were getting their life in that theater. They were laughing and I felt so uncomfortable at times. But I’ve you know, I do so much work in entertainment and Broadway. theaters like the same way you so you sit in a Strange Loop and you’re like, why are you laughing at this? Like, do you even understand what’s happened?

Traci Thomas 20:56
A Strange Loop is definitely in the same conversation.

Zach Stafford 21:01
So yeah, so once I got past that I did have that thought of why is it this certain type of black person is always something that we as black people are making fun of when we have a lot of evidence that this type of black person is also incredibly, incredibly prolific. If you look at Tupac, Tupac is taught in colleges as like a literary mastermind, like his work is incredible. Jay Z is another person that was a drug dealer that rose up so we, we don’t have to, like, take in the ghetto as a people and like, make it the thing that we keep punching at. And instead, we should give it a life of its own or the breadth of its own. And the book in the book does that I think that’s what I think is interesting about like, the fight that follows you get so much space in the book, because it is still satire, but he’s, he is attempting to give this character more of a story. We’re in the movie, you don’t really understand that you don’t get a preview of the book.

Traci Thomas 21:52
Yeah, yeah. And I think like, also, just the idea that like, a, a Van Gogh, Jenkins, the main character of my pathology exists is like, such stereotypical bullshit that like, it doesn’t exist. But we’ve been told so many times that like, this is a black story. And this is what exists, that like, it makes it flattened all of us and it flattens, specifically like poor black people who are like, fully realized human beings, which shouldn’t have to be sad, but like, as this joke continues of, like the punching down on, on like poor black people, or disenfranchised black people, like it becomes something that has to be said, because it’s like, it continues to proliferate, you know, and like, obviously, this book was written a long time ago, but none of it is new. Like none of this like, this. Like, this particular performance of blackness is new. And I just, there’s something about it that like, even while I think personal Everett’s joke is a little more complicated. It is a joke that I question every time because it feels not great.

Zach Stafford 23:05
you know, in you know what you’re getting points to another thing that you brought up which is the or Boris effect of it all the snake eating itself, because the Joe only continues the cycle of you know, a work is made that flattens the black experience makes us a caricature than an intellect tears it down by making a work that makes fun of that thing. And then through that process, they create a new kind of like caricature, and it keeps kind of repeating itself over and over and, and I walked out of them the movie and then walked away from the book, being like, This is amazing. But does it do? Does it actually structurally change anything that’s actually move us forward? Because I feel like I’m still chasing my tail in a really entertaining way. And I think, you know, that’s why I think the book is important, because it’s like, okay, maybe we should stop having this conversation and tell someone maybe we should, like, create new conversations in 2024. But I still don’t know exactly what that looks like. And right.

Traci Thomas 24:02
I don’t know. For me. For me, the joke of the book is also on monk. Like, and I think for me in the movie, the joke of the movie is not on monk. And I think that that to me is like the slight difference between the two and I think that’s where I struggled with the movie is that the joke of the movie is like Ha ha ha well meaning whites and also hahaha performance of like this kind of blackness, but I do feel like because we get so much of monk and we’re with him so intensely in the book. I also my reading is that personal ever is critiquing monk as much as he’s critiquing the other pieces. And I think that’s what makes the book work and like that’s what holds it up. But it’s such a fine line and I could see a lot of people reading the book, and maybe not feeling that same way. And I’ve heard personal Everett talk and he at least In like certain interviews, you know, he, he’s from the south, he lives in California now, he’s written a lot about things that have to do with race, and also things that don’t necessarily. And he sort of at least the way he presents himself as like, as a person who’s not interested in that stuff. Or like, it’s not that he’s not interested. But it’s like, he doesn’t care what you say about it. He’s gonna say what he wants to say. But like, he believes black people, and white people are all awful, like that kind of energy, which I do think like comes through in this book, certainly. But it’s interesting because he puts that out into a world where he knows that people are going to discuss it and like pick it apart. So it’s sort of a sort of like a provocateur, if you will. But I guess like, my, this is sort of like a piggy back topic on all of this, which is like, the art of it all, like, who? Who does it belong to? Who does my pathology belong to? Like? Yeah, I wish I had like a more, ya know, eloquent way of saying it.

Zach Stafford 26:05
But no, I think like, what, what the book does, by you know, juxtaposing, you know, his very upper middle class upbringing, you know, just the child of doctors assists his brought his siblings become doctors, they have a house on the shore, you know, and then he, he’s never lived anywhere close to Compton, like, he doesn’t know the inner city. But he’s able to produce a work that is actually coming through, like a white understanding of blackness. I mean, in the book, what’s interesting is that he is not till the end, where he meets this half sister of his that he has no idea exists in, which is not in the movie. But he meets his half sister that he realizes like, oh, there are people in his family that have had maybe a life closer to, you know, his character in my pathology. So I think it brings us to the point of what you’re saying is, when we’re creating this art, who is it for at every level? And is it ever about blackness or black people? And I would say, I mean, it’s not in many ways. It’s I mean, even the fact that we’re talking about a book that’s not going to be up for an Oscar most likely, it’s even the Oscars aren’t really for black people. This is always about a white raise and a white interest in the stories, which I think is the existential crisis at the end of the book has been like, What the Why engage with them, why even talk about them, which feels very personal, Everett to be like, well, everyone’s horrible, like, but like, it’s like the this in this road leads nowhere. Actually, it just, it’s no good.

Traci Thomas 27:30
Well, that’s the ending. I mean, that’s the last line of the book he, like, I have a lot of questions about, we could talk about the ending. I don’t know what exactly happens. I don’t think anybody knows exactly what happened. But the last line of the book is hypothesis, non vengo, non fingo. Which means like iframe, no hypothesis, which I took to mean, you know, so we get to the end, Monk becomes a judge for the National Book Award. They, and then somehow, his book, my pathology, now known as fuck is up for the award. He doesn’t want it to when the other four judges do, it wins the award. And then they announce the winner. And they’re like, is he here? And like, because he’s an enigma or whatever. And then stag and then monk walks up towards the stage. She sort of like is maybe becoming stag, and then the guy’s like, what are you doing here, Monk? And he’s like, I don’t know, maybe having a stroke? I don’t know. And then he, and then it sort of goes to nothing. We got like a new little paragraph break with little X’s and it says hypothesis, non fingo iframe null hypothesis? And I did you have a take on that? Like, did you think that was Percival saying that to us? Did you think that was monk saying that to eyes? Do you think that was monk saying that to the room, it’s in the italics. So it’s sort of like,

Zach Stafford 28:56
I took it as Percival saying it I thought it was personal being like, taking us into our world as like the bridge out to be like, this exists today. And this piece you’re holding is a part of this. Like, it’s all connected in this conversation. So I think he’s saying like, I don’t really have the answer to all of this, or how to where it sits or what to do with it. That’s up for you to think about. But like, I’m done, and I kind of love that he just like ends it like I’m like, Okay, we’re done. We’re done with this conversation. Cool. Goodbye.

Traci Thomas 29:28
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it’s very, like, good luck you. Like, have fun trying to figure out whatever I’m talking about. And I liked it. And I also liked that like, we didn’t get to the literary awards until way later. Like, I liked that. That was like sort of this quick little thing. I personally touched a chord because I am currently reading for the LA Times Book Prize right now. Yeah, till the end of this month, or to the beginning of February and And I was like, yeah, it’s that.

Zach Stafford 30:04
Is it similar? Oh my gosh, that’s hilarious.

Traci Thomas 30:09
You know, it’s me and two other people in this case, and it’s not 2021. So it’s not that exactly. But like the amount of stuff you have to read, like how all the books have these, like shit blurbs, how every book needs a better editor, like how everyone’s sort of jockeying for this thing. And they all like we all have our own, like personalities. And like, we’re all like these own like caricatures of ourselves. All of that felt very real. I’m not reading 400 to 500 books for it, but I am reading 150 books, and that feels like a lot. That is. So I started doing this in June, I think, and I’m done in February.

Zach Stafford 30:49
Wow. So you’re doing like a few books a week? Oh, yeah.

Traci Thomas 30:54
That’s a lot. I finish everything, just like in the book. They don’t finish everything. Like you can, you know, read into it or whatever. But it definitely I was like, Thank you, Percival, for seeing me. But I also just like, I loved those scenes, because I loved how he wrote white people talking about black things like where he’s like, like the common blacks. And like, this is the black. This is the best thing in African American literature I’ve read in a long time. And it’s just like, we need these stories. And the black person in the room is like, we don’t need this story. And they’re like, No, we need these stories. Yeah. And it just feels like so well meaning white, which is-

Zach Stafford 31:36
kind of 1,000% but I think he also complicates it by, you know, the character Marilyn, his love interest. Who enjoys the books he hates.

Traci Thomas 31:47
So okay, wait a second. When you read them. Oh, you saw the movie first? Yeah. When I read the book, I thought Marilyn was a white is she not convinced? She’s not a white?

Zach Stafford 32:02
They don’t get rid of Scripture.

Traci Thomas 32:04
She’s black in the movie. Yeah. Cuz Erica. That she is black in the book. I would be I could be wrong because sometimes I miss little detail.

Zach Stafford 32:15
No, they don’t say there’s no qualifier. There’s nothing is said no qualifier. So like, the only the only thing that people qualify with, like partners is the brother who’s gay. So they talk about him, but they don’t talk about the racial identity of the kids. It just kind of assumed that it’s black.

Traci Thomas 32:32
I thought she was white the whole time. So when I went into the movie, and it’s Eric Alexander, and he first meets her the neighbor. I’m like, oh, maybe there’s another neighbor in this movie. Yeah. And then I’m like, oh, because she has a different name also in the, in the in the movie. And I’m like, Oh, this is Marilyn. Yeah. But I read Marilyn is white the entire time.

Zach Stafford 32:57
That is so funny. Because in the book, something else that’s not in the movie. And this ruins nothing for either, is that he has the colleague at the conference that he sleeps with sometimes. And I read her as white. But I didn’t read Marilyn. Like she was a white woman. That was that was his own thing that we could read into. But then I took Marilyn as black because I assumed that how they were talking about the place where they have house was deeply black. Like there’s a lot of black people that had lived there historically. So I thought that was like a nod to like she’s probably black and comes from like a family that has like deep black roots here. But gentrification also happens that place so you don’t really know actually,

Traci Thomas 33:35
I don’t I don’t know. I didn’t know I don’t know the place like where the beach house was, like I’m not familiar with. I’m a West Coast person. So I’m not really familiar with like those East Coast like enclaves or whatever. But in my head, she was white. I could be totally wrong. Maybe it is said somewhere, but like, so I read this to the scene where he’s like, you’re reading this book. And she’s like, Yeah, I loved it. And like, I love my pathology, and I love wheels lives in the ghettos or whatever. I’m like, this fucking white lady. Like, she’s just obsessed with black people. Like, tell her off. Like I was totally psyched. That scene where it’s like, in the movie with the bike person,

Zach Stafford 34:11
I’m like, yeah. And he does rattling. And yeah, and it radically changes the scene a lot, which I mean, maybe like a point of his it’s like, Well, does it matter who’s reading it? And does that change how you, you take it on or deal with it? And I guess it’s true, like when if it’s a white woman saying I’m okay with this book, then you’re like, Who are you to say this, versus a black woman saying, Oh, I enjoyed this book. I needed like a break from hard, hard reading. Right? Interesting.

Traci Thomas 34:38
But also like, even if Marilyn is black, there are also black people. You know, like, not all skin folk are getting, like there’s definitely a lot of people who have read my pathology and are like, this is brilliant.

Zach Stafford 34:51
Oh yeah. I mean, precious was made by Lee Daniels who was obsessed with the book. So you know, and Oprah and Oprah was up That’s part of it too. So it’s like, no, you’re right there are those people who are down if and even if it’s not your long run the best for the community.

Traci Thomas 35:09
Right, right. But yes, I definitely read Maryland is white. And in the movie, I was like, what’s happening? Like when I saw the names go across, and I was like Erika Alexander, I was like, I wonder who she plays?

Zach Stafford 35:19
Like what is Maxine doing?

Traci Thomas 35:22
I was like, what’s going on? That’s so much. I don’t know. I read her as why I? She’s waiting to me. Um, I want to talk a little bit about the writing itself. Because I love the way this man right. He is. His pacing is so fast, so sharp. He does in like one or two sentences. What takes other writers like a paragraph and a half? Like, he’ll situate you in time and space so quickly, because this book has a lot of flashback. Yeah. And he’ll just be like, could be like, what’s that? I’m 10 in my dad’s office, and you’re just like, great. Thank you. I didn’t need you to be like, I look at my youthful hands. 10 year old boy fresh out of class with my teacher, Mr. Narc. Like I’m just like, like, this is where we are or it’ll be like Maynard, instead of being like Maynard said there’s a part where he’s like, from Maynard like it’s like, hello from Maynard. Goodbye from like, it’s like just so I just love it. Because he he just dispenses with the bullshit constantly, even in the way he writes. I found that to be just a dream.

Zach Stafford 36:46
I agree. He’s very exacting as a writer like I never yes had to guess or think about a lot of things that he was trying to say where we’re going I always knew where I was headed in certain moments. So he was really he just made clear and I think that’s needed sometimes with when we’re talking about race and identity people get very convoluted and he’s very like no bullshit the whole time and I love Yeah, and I even did love like the plainness I mean, it was ridiculous and not accurate but my pathology how he is so good at writing so badly and that was like, up against the other parts. It’s like really like I’m like you can write the you write like this is art like what you’re making you’re able to change form really fast depending on who your character is.

Traci Thomas 37:30
So did you like having- because a lot of people in the statspack are in the discord talking about like how much my pathology there is in the book. It’s about 70 pages. It goes from page 62 to 132 in my copy Did you feel like it was too much did you like it? Like how were you how was your experience of My Pafology?

Zach Stafford 37:50
I began hating that it was so long when I realized it wasn’t just a chapter and that it was like yeah, a substantial part of the book was going to be this house like why is this happening but as I went got into it, and released myself to the story, it’s also takes place in LA which I’m really interested in things in LA because I’m like, how do you how do you write about place that I live in and where are you going and how are you taking a bus from Compton to West Hollywood? I didn’t know that was a thing but something happened but I liked it I thought was the right amount I could have read more honestly but maybe that’s why push exists it’s like you go read push did to some people were not happy about the length.

Traci Thomas 38:31
I think people don’t don’t some people don’t like it. Like they think that maybe like the joke goes on too long. I sort of liked watching him Have fun with it and like push it and like because he knows at like six you’re done or sex I believe is how it’s spelled. Like, he knows you’re done. And he’s like, no, no. I just thought I was having a good time here. And like, I loved I loved that like the kids names were like the medicine. That was so funny. I think personal Everett is one of the best namers of characters in his books like Van Gogh Jenkins is so brilliant. So funny. Stagg R Li is so brilliant Bolognaise monk Ellison is so brilliant, and like I just loved watching him riff and like do his shit. I also agree with you. I think there are parts of my pathology where I’m like, wow, he’s actually he’s not just trying to write bad he’s trying to make a point that that bad still like there’s like some craft to what he’s doing. Like he has really taken the time to write a quote unquote bad novel personal that is not not monk, but like the actual book within the book is like it’s not just thrown. It’s not how I would do it. I would be like, Yo yo, yo, like, it’s not it is that but it’s better than that like It’s really professional shit. And I really liked that. And like, it’s just there’s like range to it. And there’s like a good little plot like,

Zach Stafford 40:10
it also sort of like, the syntax is kind of flushed out and that like, this is the language and it’s nothing like I’ve read before, like how he says, like us and six, like, I’ve never seen it written that way. And like you typically see, I think Black slang written. You know, a lot of it, you know, it’s like post slavery vibe, where it’s like, they’re very, like write posts, were or post Emancipation Proclamation way of talking. Like the color purple is the best example of that. Or then you have, like, you know, Friday or the other versions that are like poured the inner city kids, right, but how he’s writing I was like, I’ve never seen people write words like this, but I know exactly what you’re getting at. And it created its own sense of place. For me that felt very, like his and it didn’t feel like he was because I think a lazy writer or writer, they didn’t care as much would have just bullshit at that part. And like, no one’s really gonna read this. They’re gonna skip it. But he did think like, he was really thoughtful about what he was creating and how it ended even like the ending was pretty, like why.

Traci Thomas 41:11
And like, there’s parts of that book that are mirrored throughout the full of erasure. Like, I don’t know if you caught this, but there’s three different scenes where someone is like getting makeup, hair and makeup done before they go on television. Yeah. And I like loved that because it’s like, it happens with Van Gogh Jenkin. It happens in that interlude with the game show that ends with the audience said nothing. They were dead. Oh, yeah. Yes. Like that, which I fucking loved. And then it happens before monk goes on the Oprah show.

Zach Stafford 41:43
It’s Kenya- It’s- he’s Stagg R Lee, is behind it.

Traci Thomas 41:48
So like, I love like, those little things. I was very curious about the hard are on the N word. Yeah. Because that to me, had to have been a choice because the G, the GGA version exists as well. And I wasn’t, I was really curious about that. Because that felt like I think maybe that was him showing his hand as monk.

Zach Stafford 42:10
Oh yeah. Yeah, it felt very, like I was the first thing I caught reading, I was like, Oh, how you’re spelling, the N word usually tells you who sang it. And how this is being written is a very certain type of person in a certain place and a certain meaning, and it’s not in group speech, or the ways in which we use it. So he’s making a point here of being like, well, this is who this audience is for it’s for this is for white people. This is what how white people use it. So I’m going to write it in this like code, which is his thesis is that the whole thing is written in a black line, which for white people to understand that for black people, right? So I think it was it was as far as you can tell you, man teach that USC, right. He’s brilliant, 30 books. He knows what he’s doing.

Traci Thomas 42:52
He’s knows what he’s doing. He knows what he’s doing. Okay, so one of the things we always do is we talked about the title on the cover, but I want to give the the title a little more time than we normally do. Because I wasn’t sure why the book was called a ratio until I got to the scene about the erased artwork. And then I was like, This is the greatest title usage ever. Because there’s a 0% chance that I would tell anyone about this book and like, what do you think this book should be called? And they would be like, Are you sure? Yeah. But so in, in the it’s on page 228. There’s the scene between two artists, because there’s these interludes that I don’t know that that’s what I was like, I don’t know that I understand what’s going on here. But there’s these interludes, I think, 227, sorry. And this one is between like two artists, and one of them is de Kooning. And the other one is Rauschenberg. And he’s like, draw me this picture. And he does. And then I, he’s like, I don’t care what it is. And he’s like, Well, I intend to erase it. And so he gets the picture. He races it. And he’s like, Well, where is it? And he’s like, here it is. It’s this array. This is the piece of paper I gave you with the drawing you did, but I erased it. And then he’s like, will you put your name on it? He’s like, Well, that’s because this is my artwork. Now I erase the art is the eraser of your artwork. And I’ve already sold it for 10 grand. And he said, you sold my picture. He said, No, I erased your picture. I sold my erasing. And to me, that of course becomes like this. This is like the moral center of the book. It’s like, who does the art belong to? Once the art is put into the world? Is it the artists work and what happens to it when other people attach themselves to the thing? And I feel like, again, for me arratia The book is getting out something different than American fiction, the movie and that became extremely clear to me in thinking About the title and thinking about this idea of like, it’s not just about getting famous for this fate and performance of blackness, it’s about being an artist who’s fighting what the audience wants versus what I want to make versus what is good. Right? He talks, he has another scene where he talks about good art. All art is art, whether it’s good or bad, but not all other things are considered what they are, if they’re bad, and I just that to me, is so profound like thinking about these things like because then the question becomes who to stag are li belong to? Who does my pathology slash fuck belong to? And if it is, Monk, if it is monks work, but then it becomes this whole other thing? Who’s responsible for it?

Zach Stafford 45:53
And it’s in what’s amazing about I love how you’re talking about this, because I hadn’t really caught on to that until you were talking to somebody that is crazy. Because I got to that scene. I’m like, What is he talking about? I’m like, Oh, this is kind of why the book is called this, but okay, whatever. I didn’t give it much thought. But thinking about, you know, the practice of taking away from art in that being the, the power of it is like the capturing of it, the owning of it, no matter what the substance of it is so much about being black in America, across art, and just lived experiences. And I think it’s also why the book and movie are very different. And that court, Jefferson decided that I want to adapt this book, and I want to make it into a thing called American fiction. And I have that as a black filmmaker, I want to make this thing as kind of like pointing at the flattening of my experience as a black man, where I don’t know if Percival had the same ambitions of writing the book, he was more interested in, like, what why can’t I just write the thing I want to write and do the thing I want to do? And that’d be seen as important where court was like, No, I want to make the black film about the black thing about black people not being able to have agency like, I think it’s interesting. So I think like, you know, the movie isn’t about a race. Sure. It’s about fiction. It’s about creation of things and how you’re you prosper for them. And the book is so much about what is lost when we don’t see things for what they are. Let people be who they are, and take them on. Take them from right.

Traci Thomas 47:19
Yeah, I just I ended up really liking the title, because of the way he sort of justifies it throughout the book in a way that I wasn’t expecting, for sure. I have to ask you this because you’re a black gay man. What did you think of Bill and like the depiction of the brother? What is it? It’s bill in the book and cliff in the movie?

Zach Stafford 47:42
Yeah I think that’s right. I think that’s right. It’s so Okay, so Sam Sanders and I, I don’t care if he’s mad at me for saying this. He really likes Sterling K brown in the movie, and I enjoyed him, too. I think he’s so attractive. He’s so funny. I don’t think the character is very additive in many ways. Like, I don’t find it to be like in terms of a query in the book or in the movie in Barbeau. In both like, I don’t think it was like some like revolution for queer representation. I was excited. He was there. But I thought it was pretty like flat and, you know, expected that was the most expected part of the book because like, of course, the cause is a black gay guy. The family’s not gonna be accepting of him. Okay, but I don’t think he’s the only one that can be critical of the mom. Sure. But that’s just I don’t know, it wasn’t that surprising. But it added the movie, it adds a lot of fun relief, and like hilarious moments in the book. I just feel myself very sad for him because he’s obviously going through a hard time. And he dyes his hair blonde, so I kept imagining Sterling K Brown. But um, yeah, I think so I was really interested in him, but I found myself more drawn to the sister, that is the illegitimate child, because it’s the sister, that sister because of her being mixed, and you know, I feel like that becomes this really interesting, kind of existential crisis for monk who is Black doesn’t identify as mixed or biracial or anything, but he has to confront this, like secret life his dad had created and how, in some people’s eyes and some people would say this, she had a blacker experience than he did. And what does that mean about race and like the lived experience and what really makes race in America I thought that was all very fascinating parts and how she lives with white supremacists to like of course she-

Traci Thomas 49:30
Yeah, well, I think I think that is really interesting. And like this, so this is my this is another criticism of the movie. And I think this is probably a it’s a really big conversation and we see it a lot in Hollywood, but in the book, monk is specifically written as dark skin black, yes, it is specifically said that he is dark skinned, he is descended from slaves. A much is made of this in the beginning. I mean, as far as per Seville Everett makes much of anything but it’s like a whole paragraph about how this man looks black. And that is part of the performance of sag R Lee as we go through, like when he meets with the movie producer. And the producers like I didn’t, I didn’t believe it was real. And I have this instinct that’s like, well, that’s fucking racist, like, and then I’m like, wait, but it’s fucking racist for you to believe it’s real, too, right? Like, I’m like going back and forth. But like, part of the joke of the movie, or of the book is that he’s able to pull off this thing because he is dark black. And there’s so much colorism and so much racism about what that means and how he appears. And in the movie, it’s fucking Jeffrey Wright, who is very light skinned. And I, that to me, was the hardest part two reconcile of the movie. Because Sterling K Brown was right, the fuck? They’re right there. And I know, Jefferson has talked about has talked about how it’s when he was reading the book, he pictured Jeffrey right from the beginning. And I’m like, Okay, well, so you just wanted to have Jeffrey right? Because that is not the description of the thing. But it really changes the movie. And it is colorist and it is anti black to make that choice. When it’s clearly written that it’s a dark skinned it just, just changes it.

Zach Stafford 51:34
So Traci, I leading up to this, but I haven’t said this yet. I think it’s what my partner this I told someone else. So this has like I would have would have only said yes to talking about her ratio with Tracy out of everybody, because of this exact thing. Because I feel like and I say this as a friend of cords and as someone that has worked with lots of black creators and thinks about blackness of representation. But who does that as you know, a more light skinned mixed person is like, what do we rip away from this content by not letting it be dark skinned black people. And that experience of being a dark skinned black man, like my father is vastly different than what I experienced in the world. And if I was pulling the stunt, you know, there’s a reason why in the book, like maybe a light skinned person does get a book deal or can even have these conversations. And like the fact that a person was dark skinned is the radical act of like, well, they fought so hard to get here. Why can’t they be here? Why did they have to keep performing a certain type blackness where, you know, in court, you know, looks like our brother, and like cord, right? Like, of course, he saw Jeffrey right when he read it because he was projecting himself into it. But it’s like the tax write is about someone that is much darker and a very specific experience. And I do think the movie would have been very different. It makes more sense for like, the code switching that happens between monk and Stagger Lee. Like someone’s like, oh, yeah, this dark skinned black man sitting at this hotel. Yeah, I’m sure he’s a thug. I’m sure he’s all these things were like, yeah, the Jeffrey Wright’s of the world with his ex efforts. People aren’t really looking at me being like, Yes, you are staggeringly. Like that’s just not a thing.

Traci Thomas 53:13
Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And like, I mean, not to hit the nail on the head too hard. But that is an erasure is a literal experience. Like it is it again, it fundamentally changes the joke of the book, when the movie does that. And also, especially in a visual medium, where you’re looking at the person for 90 minutes or whatever, for two hours. Whereas when you read the book, it is slight like you can sort of imagine whatever you want, and it’s not as in your face, but when you’re watching it on a screen. And you see this because also in the literary tradition, including personal Everett, who is light skinned black, light skinned black writers do have an easier time getting book deals, they are able to talk about race in a way that dark skinned black authors are not given those opportunities. Historically, I mean, like WEB DuBois, like we’re talking about some of the great like literary figures of our time look a certain way and that means something when James Baldwin then gets an opportunity to write and what he says and how he’s perceived right and so like that change, while it makes sense in a Hollywood way, because like Jeffrey Wright is one of our great living actors and I would watch him do anything and I love him and I understand wanting to cast him in your movie. It really changes. What we’re looking at and what we’re talking about and it is colorist and it is anti black. And like I wish I wished that he would have just cast Sterling K Brown who I think could have done it one to reach for another actor to do it. He’s right there on screen.

Zach Stafford 55:00
Yeah, they could have. Yeah, they could have switch them out very easily because there is this like, watching the movie. I’m like, Okay, here goes like all the lights can people get to be the heroes or the villas they get to be centered in the story. But you know, and I didn’t think about skintone until I read the books, I saw the movie first, Jeffrey, right. And then they start reading the book. And I’m like, this is not just me, right? This is someone that looks like my father. My cousin’s not me. Like, this is not my style. And I think, you know, that would be my one big change. And I mean, it guests then is it even would court have even done the movie if he couldn’t have some of that look like him. Because this is very, like, interesting, connected to his own experiences, I think, too. And he projects a lot of that to the script, and the changes he makes and the things he decides to focus on. And even the ending, I would say, is an ending that, you know, I don’t know, if certainly Kate Browns character would have, I don’t know, I actually don’t know, I would have ended the move into the same way. If it was a dark skinned person versus Geoffrey wise. I think it just, it changes everything similar to, you know, down to the girlfriend, her identity, it’s I think we’re just keep making this point over and over. It’s like, who is in the room who’s touching the work does matter all the time.

Traci Thomas 56:12
And that is the center of the book really is like who’s in the room who’s touching the work. The only other thing I want to touch on that we didn’t touch on is the sister Lisa, who is killed at the beginning of the book, who is a reproductive health doctor, and OB and she’s killed, murdered by an anti abortionist at her clinic. And that as I was reading the book, because again, I saw the book before I saw the movie. I was like, This is so fucking spot on. It’s uncomfortable. And I hate it here that this is like so right on, because I do remember when, like in the 90s when that was happening, but I also remember that being like, those are fucking wackadoodle people like That’s fucking crazy. And now I’m like, Yeah, sure someone would shoot up an abortion clinic. Like, that feels right. And I just, it’s different in the movie, I’m gonna have to talk about that. But that moment to me, I was like, this is to spot on, like, holy shit.

Zach Stafford 57:07
I yeah, I was kind of annoyed reading the book that that wasn’t punched up more in the movie. Like it’s kind of there. But it’s not. I don’t you don’t go inside the clinic like, yeah, the book and get to know the people and like the crisis with the clinic at the end while the doctors want to like, fold out because they don’t want to get shot. I thought it was just so interesting. And so contemporary. And I mean, we keep talking about this, but the book is so good. Because it’s like a James Baldwin, a book where, you know, you read James Baldwin now and you’re like, did he write this in 2005? You know, like, No, that was doesn’t hasn’t changed much. So like this is kind of a contemporary book that really captured a moment that we are still emerging from and continued to grapple with. So I love that character I wish and Tracee Ellis Ross plays Lisa so well that it makes me mad that she wasn’t used more like we need to get her doing more dramas, like Tracy needs to do things outside of comedy.

Traci Thomas 58:04
She’s so good. Anything else we have to talk about before we go? Anything you’re dying?

Zach Stafford 58:09
Oh, those are all the big points. I think I Is there anything else I want to talk about? No, I love this You made me like it more like the book more. I love the book. But this conversation made me enjoy the book more and have more criticism of the movie which I did like a lot. But I think what’s really exciting about all of the book the movie The conversations, is that similar to the book itself, this is all a big or Boris if like snake eating itself and we’re all like kind of Yeah, dance doing this dance, but I kind of like it. It’s it’s fun. It feels like the right amount of stakes. And it’s not going to like change Hollywood if this one best picture. But I think we can all have like a fun year of talking about race and it’s not gonna win.

Traci Thomas 58:53
Best Picture. Oppenheimer is gonna win. That is Oscar fodder. I haven’t seen it.

Zach Stafford 59:00
It’s just clearly I was there. I walked out of there. When for I can’t went and saw the weekend at open and I was like, yep, this just one. It just is what it is. This is what the officers look for. So I’d like to everyone else but like this.

Traci Thomas 59:13
Sorry, this man. It’s Oppenheimer. I obviously see, I was mid on the movie. I thought the movie was fine. But I did read the book first. And then I immediately saw the movie. So it was like so fresh in my mind. And I also think like, part of it is like, I think for Jefferson is a great exciting new voice. But personal effort is a living legend. And I just don’t think core Jefferson is quite ready yet to contend with, like a master of storytelling, but you have to cut your teeth somewhere. It’s just like, it was a it’s a big read. It’s like it would be like if I’m like, I’m going to adapt a Toni Morrison novel for my first film. It’s just like, I don’t know that.

Zach Stafford 59:47
Yeah, and I can believe first of all said yes, to this day, shocked, like, I’m like, Whoa, I believe you. Okay, cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. But you know, I think it’s worth seeing but it’s not.

Traci Thomas 59:56
Yeah, yes, definitely worth seeing, especially if you’re this far into this episode and you’ve listened of you listen to us talk about it and you’ve read the book like you should definitely see the movie. But you know, I’m also such an asshole. I hate everything. But Zach, thank you so much for being here and talking about this with us and everyone go listen to Zach on Vibe Check my personal favorite podcast besides my actual personal podcast. It’s my must listen to I listen to you guys on Wednesday. I don’t listen to my own. But thank you so much.

Zach Stafford 1:00:26
Thank you. This was so great. It was so good to be back. And I’m so glad you got me to start the year off reading a book that was really astounding.

Traci Thomas 1:00:33
So everyone else we will see you in the stacks.

All right, y’all. That does it for us today. Thank you so much to Zach Stafford for coming back into The Stacks. I’d also like to say a huge thank you to Shantel Holder for helping to make this conversation possible. And now it is time for our February book club pick announcement. The book is Viral Justice: How we grow the world we want. It is part memoir. It is part manifesto and it is written by the absolutely brilliant Ruha Benjamin. The book is all about taking the small daily actions that lead to big structural change. You’ll have to listen on February 7th to find out who our guest will be on February 28th. For our discussion of Viral Justice. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack. Make sure you’re subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you’re listening through Apple podcasts, be sure to leave a rating and a review. For more from the stacks. Follow us on social media. We’re at the stacks pod on Instagram threads and tik tok and at thestackspod underscore on Twitter. And of course check out our website the stacks podcast.com This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. Our graphic designer is Robin MacWrite. The Stacks is created and produced by me Traci Thomas.

Cherie Marquez https://www.cmediacollective.com/
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