Ep. 187 Waiting to Exhale by Terry McMillan -- The Stacks Book Club (Nichole Perkins)

Written By Megan Caballero

The last week of the month means it's time for The Stacks Book Club. This month we're joined again by author, poet, and podcast host, Nichole Perkins (Sometimes I Trip on How Happy We Could Be) to discuss Waiting to Exhale by Terry McMillan. On this episode we talk about the ways the book (and movie) have and haven't aged well, the depiction of friendship between Black women, and the lasting legacy of this modern classic.

There are minor spoilers in this episode.

Be sure to listen to the end of today's episode to find out what The Stacks Book Club pick for November will be.

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas. It is the last Wednesday of the month, which means it's The Stacks book club day. We're joined again by Nichole Perkins, the author of Sometimes I Trip on How Happy We Could Be to discuss the 1992 classic Waiting to Exhale by Terry McMillan. There are some minor spoilers in this episode. And be sure to listen to the end of today's episode to find out what our book club pick will be for November. Nichole, welcome back.

Nichole Perkins 1:30

Thanks for having me back. I'm really excited for this episode, because I cannot wait to talk about today's book.

Traci Thomas 1:36

I'm so excited. So today's book for those of you who decided to press play on something without even reading the title of the episode is Waiting to Exhale by Terry McMillan, the 1992 Classic. I think it's a classic at this point. Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. Okay. So there probably will be some spoilers if you haven't read the book. But if you don't care, go ahead. And listen, if you do care, hit pause, read the book. Come back. We'll be here waiting for you. Nichole, we always start the book club episodes, pretty much exactly the same, which is what did you think of the book?

Nichole Perkins 2:10

Okay, so I still really enjoyed the book, but, you know, reading it as an adult in 2021. I was just like, Ooh, that's a little cringy. But I was just like, wow, Terry McMillan knew what she was doing with this book. Like, it was just, it was a really meaty book. When I say media, I just mean like, all the women had solid stories with them. And even though they were going through something different, I mean, they were going through a lot of similar things. They all had, like, brought a different, like flavor to it. So I was just, I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed the book. I enjoyed it.

Traci Thomas 2:50

Yeah, I feel like I come down, sort of in a similar place, which is, but this was my first time ever reading the book or seeing the movie, which I know, like, I had seen the scene with Angela Bassett, 1000 times, you know, the gift is everywhere, you know, but I was sort of like, what is this book gonna be? And I think that it has aged well, in some ways, and then aged terribly and other ways. And I found that to be really interesting. But I think like you're saying the the meat of the book, like the women and their relationships and the way that Terry McMillan has like four really fleshed out characters. I think that that is really impressive. And for them to still feel super relevant. almost 30 years later, like that is really really impressive to me. I feel like one of the things that the book does that I was sort of like this is a lot is like it takes on every single issue that ever happened to black people in the history of America like since slavery, like aside from slavery, like it was like a homophobia, fat phobia, mental health promiscuity, single black women, like many check crack being a mystery. It's like, it was like anything that black people have thought about for more than five seconds. Like since 1965.

Nichole Perkins 4:13

Like in this book, it that's really true. Even like gentrification, or maybe like, I don't know, I don't know if it's called reverse gentrification, but like when black people move in mass someplace. Yeah, I remember reading this book when it first came out. I was 15 at the time and my mom. My mom had told me to read it, because it was being passed around at her job. And she, you know, she read it. I remember seeing her reading it in bed over, you know, several nights and then she was, you know, one night she was just like, Mickey, when I'm finished with this, I want you to read it. I think you would like it and I was like, okay, because she knew that I tend to I tend to read stuff that was like outside of my age range at the time. Yeah, so Um, anyway, so I read the book, and I remember just like, gobbling it and just being like, oh my god, this is so good. Also, because it was just like, this preview into what I thought adult, black womanhood was going to be like, you know, in a way that I wasn't getting from my relatives who weren't necessarily always going to be very open about the relationships that they were going through. And then when the movie came out close, I saw that and that was incredible was so funny. And again, I felt but I also felt like I was seeing they really brought the characters to life in a certain way. And I felt more connected to them once they were on screen, because it was just like, I see my accent cousins, you know, with this stuff. But I'm still one of those people who always is always gonna think the book is better than the movie. And so there were certain things where I felt like some of the characterizations of the women kind of had to be pushed to the side, you know, for a time or whatever, but reading it now rereading it now. It's just like, ooh, this fatphobia like she-

Traci Thomas 6:08

Oh, my gosh!

Nichole Perkins 6:10

It was so much. As you know, in the movie, Gloria is played by Loretta Divine's character, you know, obviously, we see her struggle with weight, and what it means to be this woman who likes to cook and take care of people and the things that people say about her. But we also see her joy, when the neighbor is just like, oh, well, I like to be a big woman, you know, and just being, you know, being like, getting in touch with your body. But I wish that Gloria had been able to reach that moment without a man having to like, give that to her. Right. But anyway, so yeah, it was a lot of fatphobia in there to the point where I'm just like, Miss MacMillan, what is going on?

Traci Thomas 6:58

Right? Because in the book, it's like, even more than in the movie. I mean, in the book, it's like every other line, like when they throw her the party, and they're like, let's have a pizza party, because we know she likes pizza. It's like Jesus Christ you guys, like this is your friend.

Nichole Perkins 7:13

And even the men in the book, you know, when Robin is first meeting up with Michael, and she just keeps talking about how chubby is and how I bet he likes to eat and all this kind of stuff and Savanah Whitney Houston's character in the movie, when she was like, goes to this party at the beginning of new years. And she says the women are looking at her real ugly, and she's just like, don't be mad at me, because I'm not fat and ugly. And it's like, okay, well, maybe they're not. Maybe they're just looking at you. Because they don't know you. You know, right, right. I don't know. Yeah, these different little different little moments, just like this is unnecessary.

Traci Thomas 7:57

Do you remember at the time, like, in the early mid 90s, like, was talking bad about fat people like that? Was that just like, normal? Because a lot of me reading the book was like, trying to reconcile what I feel and think now versus what I remember from the early 90s. And for me, I was like, Is this was this in everything? Like, was everyone talking about fat people in this way? Like, I do remember, Oprah was like, always on her weight loss journey, and it was like a thing. And I know, like, in pop culture, we definitely talked about weight in a way that we do not now, but like, Do you have any recollection of that?

Nichole Perkins 8:40

I think part of it is, it was a holdover from the 80s when all of these like exercise gurus and stuff like that, and you know, like looking back I think it was also kind of a way for people to be like, I'm not on Coke, I just exercise a lot you know, from the ad you know, stuff like that and but there was definitely a lot of like, what do you call it like exercise propaganda, you know, and like there is now Yeah, yeah, but now it's just worded more delicately, you know, there's just like, make a lifestyle change as opposed to go on a diet you know, that kind of stuff. So the language is different because they know that people know that like actual fat shaming is bad and it's like it's really affecting people but they still just, the message is still clear. That skinny people are beautiful, you know, whether you believe that or not, you know, but Right. But I definitely remember that was that was definitely a part of like the atmosphere at that time. And it was just, it was, you know, like buns of steel, exercise tapes and stuff like that and like the holdover of Richard Simmons is, you know, his exercise routines and like Jazzercise and Jane Fonda, and All that kind of stuff. So I think this is like, even though Black people, I guess you could say tend to appreciate curves more or whatever. It's still just like, if only if it's like the right kind of curves, right? Sure. So all that to say, Yes, I definitely remember having that as a part of, you know, the pop culture atmosphere at the time, but I just didn't, I clearly have forgotten how much you know, it was a part of it. And I think also, it's just, you know, Terry McMillan has always been a slim woman herself, which is not to say that the author always puts themselves into the text. But I'm wondering if there was just something maybe, that she just kept, I don't know, coming back to because it was, it's like an every woman's section. Every time we get, you know, rotate views. There's something about somebody being fat and unattractive, or somebody being like, worrying about somebody else being fat and unattractive. So it was it. It actually really bothered me, I was me to write about it.

Traci Thomas 11:07

It really bothered me too. I was because I've never read the book. I mean, you're saying you didn't remember but like, it really snuck up on me because I've never heard anyone talk about it. Like, I've never heard it come up, like, wading textile is so great. But like, there's a lot of weird fat stuff in there. Like, there's some gross stuff about weight or food or whatever, like so that was because usually, I feel like with classic books, I know going in sort of what the issues are, are like what the hot topics, not to bring up a 90s clothing store anything. But like, what the like, what the hot takes are around it. And so it was definitely like, Wait, why is no one talking about this?

Nichole Perkins 11:47

Yeah, I don't know what that is, I guess. It just kind of got pushed to the side and just became glorious story as opposed to the way that it was threaded throughout. So yeah, it's very disturbing, actually.

Traci Thomas 12:01

Yeah. One of the things you brought up was about Terry McMillan and like, not that the author is any of the characters or it's their point of view unnecessarily. But one of the things I found interesting, as far as the writing is that Savannah and Robin are sometimes, you know, in first person, I guess, where it's like, I did this, I did that while GLORIA And Bernadine are never. And I'm wondering if you had any thoughts about like, why an author might do that? Or like what that does for the book.

Nichole Perkins 12:30

You know, I was thinking about that, as you know, we read it because, you know, the movie, it became clear that it was savannas story, or like, you know, she was the main one. And I always thought that it was just because Whitney Houston, right, like, you know, she was the star, even though the other women were also very well respected at that time. But, you know, for Whitney, it was clearly her movie or whatever. But rereading it I was just like, I realized that too, and I started to think, are Robin and Savannah, Terry McMillan, you know, like, like it did she split herself up, and it was easier for her to talk about her experiences in dating. Because, you know, obviously, you know, later we'll get How Stella Got Her Groove Back. And we're talking about this woman who has been single, or you know, dealing with heartbreak and trying to date again. And so I mean, all of them go through that in the book. But I really do think that Savannah and Robin are kind of more, more of Terry maybe in the way that she have, you know, talked about her dating experiences and stuff like that. I also think she wanted as a writer, I think she wanted to make these characters more sympathetic, right? Like, these are these here, these two women who are unashamed about dating their dating lives who are you know, maybe they have more sex than people think is proper, or whatever, but they still have needs so I think that's also part of why she wants our she wrote them in first person more often so that we can be less judgmental of them. At least that's my hope.

Traci Thomas 14:17

Yeah, I was trying I've been thinking about that a lot because especially with Robin because sometimes she's in first person and sometimes she's not, which I found to be like, clearly there's a choice here. This isn't just like, oh, Savannah is gonna be in first person because it's easier for me to write her this way. But it's like with Robin, it was sort of back and forth. And I don't know, I definitely feel like it's Savannah story if like we start with Savannah, both in the book and in the movie. But it feels so weird because Savannah is the most outsider one, you know, like she's the new one She only knows Bernadine like so that was I don't know I don't know why she did it that way. And I don't know Oh, that it changes the book much if if it's Bernie Bernie, who's in first person, or Gloria or whatever, like, I feel like we get a lot of all of them. But it definitely is like, a choice.

Nichole Perkins 15:12

Yeah, I'm, I don't know, maybe she just wanted us to be more inside the journey of trying to find a man and what that looks like, for black women. That's the only thing that I can really think.

Traci Thomas 15:28

Yeah, I mean, I agree, I guess I guess also just like mixing it up and showing us like, outside and inside, I don't know. But I found that choice in the movie to be particularly boring. I was surprised by how boring the movie was, I have to admit, like, I really, I had to watch it in two parts, because I started falling. Like, to me, the best part of the movie is the fire scene, which obviously, I guess everyone feels that way, because it's the one you see all the time. But that happened very early in the book and the movie. And I was like, what now?

Nichole Perkins 16:04

It's definitely a slow burn. And I think I do think that by the time we get to them, like sitting together in glorious house and drinking and getting a little drunk and stuff like that, like we needed that moment of silliness to kind of liven things up. Forrest Whitaker directed Yeah, directed the movie. So I think he was just trying to like, take his time with each character with their stories as much as he could. Yeah, it's funny because you talk about these highly difficult moments now, right? And like this 21st century way of expressing how movies and TV shows have stayed with us because it's like, that's kind of how you know this. Something has become iconic now. Right? When you have like teens and young people referencing them or using them for their social media responses and stuff. So I'm thinking like for each woman, they have that so obviously for Bernadine, it is the fire her walking away from the car on fire. For Robin. It's not even really her it is Russell I think when he's like, shouting at her, you raggedy bitch and she like takes him out. Right? So it's him. Gloria has the scene where she's like, you know, she tells the neighbor can I always forget his name from the book.

Traci Thomas 17:26

Is it Marvin?

Nichole Perkins 17:29

I can't remember. Yeah. Um, but when she's just like, oh, you should come over. I'm just clicking a little. We just haven't downloaded. You know, she's like, she lists off everything that she's cooking and she walks away. And she has that incredible switch in her walk. So that's something that gets Jeff and actually now that I'm running through this, I actually don't think that Whitney Houston has a GIF-able moment-

Traci Thomas 17:53

Oh, you go GIF with a hard J like peanut butter I go gift. This is like the age-long debate.

Nichole Perkins 17:59

I know I say GIF, because the man who you know, invented it says it's supposed to be GIF so I'm just trying his way.

Traci Thomas 18:06

I don't know him. So sorry to that man.

Nichole Perkins 18:11

Everyone always gets on me for it, but it's fine.

Traci Thomas 18:14

No, I like it. I like a debate. So I'm happy to be here. I can't find his name.

Nichole Perkins 18:19

Yeah, but Gregory Hines. Yeah. But now that I started this thought, Whitney Houston's character Savannah doesn't really have a GIF but-

Traci Thomas 18:30

She has the song; she has Waiting to Exhale, right? I mean, talk about iconic soundtrack. Yes. Oh my god that Brandi, Mary J. Like as it was going, I was like, Well, I definitely owned the CDs soundtrack. Like I owned the real compact disc like a real 90s kid. And, and I feel like of all of the things from the movie besides the Bernadine seen what has held up the best is that soundtrack right like that soundtrack. Yeah, Babyface just really making things happen.

Nichole Perkins 19:05

Yes, I mean, it had all the heavy hitters of the late 80s and early 90s Shante Moore, Mary J. Blige, you know, she sings Bernadine theme were not gonna cry. And she's you know, she's like, I was just sick teary, like Yeah. Oh, no, but it was such a it was such a good a good soundtrack and I think it was, you know, just at that height of movie soundtracks as well. Like, it was soul food I had Yeah, I had the CD I had the CD for that, for Soul Food. Love Jones.

Traci Thomas 19:46

Love and Basketball.

Nichole Perkins 19:48

Love and Basketball. Oh my God, love.

Traci Thomas 19:50

Oh my god.

Nichole Perkins 19:51

I love that like the 90s were so good for movie soundtracks. I don't know what happened. I really don't know. I don't know. I want No one's read about that. But yes, so the book, um, around that time in the 90s. I do remember a lot of black people were moving to Arizona. Oh, really? Yeah. Because when you talked about earlier that this book had everything in it. I remember that. I remember like a lot of black people like, this is where you need to go. It's inexpensive. The weather's warm. You know, it's not a lot of BS. But also, I think somebody references it. Arizona did not want to make Martin Luther King a holiday.

Traci Thomas 20:31

Yes. Yes. It comes up like four times in the book.

Nichole Perkins 20:35

Yeah. And I think that was also a reason like, people were being petty a little bit. I'm gonna come to you, even though I don't know how that makes sense. But I think it was just like, a way of like, you don't want us there. So we're gonna come kind of maybe that's what it was? I don't know.

Traci Thomas 20:53

Yeah, I just looked up the history of that, because I remembered, I remembered like, knowing that Arizona had some issues with Martin Luther King Day. And I went and like looked it up. And for people who don't know this, so Martin Luther King Day was passed, I think, in 1983, by Ronald Reagan. And then it was like, 19, like, 919 86, that the governor of Arizona was like, Okay, we're going to do it. And then when he got voted out of office that next year with the January that it was supposed to be like, 1987, or whatever, the new governor was, like, No, fuck you. We're not doing this. And then a bunch of like artists and like celebrities, basically pulled out of Arizona, including the Super Bowl, the NFL was like, we're not going to have the super bowl here anymore. And then that was supposed to be in 1992, which is when and the book takes place in like 1990 or something. And so in 1992, they pulled out and they said, we'll come back once you approve the holiday, and then approve the holiday in 1993. And the Super Bowl was there in 1996. And, and I just found that to be like, I feel like maybe that had come up in recent history when all that stuff was going on with Sheriff, our Pio or whatever, recently in Arizona. But I didn't really know all the details. And when I looked it up, I was like, this is some crazy stuff. But I loved that that was in the book. I love that. Like there was real, you know, history and like real things happening. Like, you know, in the book, they talk about Whitney Houston, and like they talk about Donald Trump and Cliff Huxtable and like some people, Prince comes up. And some people definitely age better than others as far as like the references go. But I always love those like kind of meta moments, especially with Whitney Houston being brought up. I was like, this is incredible.

Nichole Perkins 22:36

Right? Right. I remember seeing these different references, because sometimes people try not to put real historical figures in their books in order to like keep a timeless kind of thing so that you can pick it up at any point in history and, like go with everything. But I really appreciated that. Even though it was jam packed with a lot of stuff that you still have this is really this book is really a time capsule 1,000% of that time, for sure.

Traci Thomas 23:06

And I like that. I think it's better. I don't like time, quote unquote, timeless things because I feel like when you try to make it timeless, then it lacks the specificity. Like I knew exactly what I was dealing with, from the first reference. I mean, it happens early. I think it's like Dick Clark comes up and like, because it's New Year's Eve, and it's like, okay, great. I know where I am. I understand. And like, I also trust that what I'm being told is real, which I appreciate. I don't like, I don't I don't like it when it's like President Xi Ronald Reagan, like just say, Ronald Reagan, like, I hate you. We don't need this. We're adults here. Plus I gave it gives you stuff to look up to be like, Oh, who was that? Or like, what is that reference to which I also really appreciate?

Nichole Perkins 23:50

Yeah, I like when books make you kind of explore to find the context and make sure that you're understanding everything, the way it should be understood.

Traci Thomas 23:59

I yeah, I really, I really dig that. Yeah. I want to talk about some of the other things in this book that maybe aged well or didn't age. Well. I'm curious, aside from the fatphobia, which we both agree has aged very poorly. What were other things that you felt like either aged well, or didn't age?

Nichole Perkins 24:19

Well, in the book, one thing that I really liked that, you know, it's that it stayed it like very early, from savannas chapter and just kind of repeats itself throughout, but it's just like, don't settle like that. I think that's the overall message. And at one point, Savannah said something like, if I want something to happen, I have to make it happen. And that really resonated with me and the ways that these women had to take control of their lives. Like they were just trying to sit back and wait for men to arrive and you know, choose them right, but really, they had to make the choice. So choose themselves that sounds really cliche or whatever, but still, that that's what it was. So I think that overall message of like, don't settle, choose yourself has remained strong. And in reading this, I was just like, this is all the shit that I am dealing with as a 40 plus woman, you know, the women at this point I like 35 and 36. But it's like, this is all the stuff that I am still dealing with as a single woman dating. And like, this is just Will this ever change? Like, I don't know, Will this ever change. So I also appreciate it that that even though it kind of left me a little frustrated and feeling a little hopeless, that there's still like this. I don't want to say a record, but still like this kind of example, that what I'm going through is not new, it's not special. To me, it is something that a lot of women, especially if they were women who date men, especially if they're black women who date black man, or just date men period, it's just like, we have to like deal with a lot of this stuff. So I really appreciate it getting, even though like I said, it left me very frustrated and a little hopeless. But I just enjoyed this confirmation that I was not alone in these some of these really awkward experiences with dating.

Traci Thomas 26:26

Yeah, I think you're right. Like, I feel like through recent history, there's this idea that comes up a lot about women being independent and strong, and all of that. And I was thinking as I was reading this book, is that something that has come from Waiting to Exhale? Like, is that part of the legacy of this book, as opposed to this book being in a tradition of something like, you know, nowadays, we see so many things that like, I don't need him, I can go do this on my own, like all the savanna stuff. And I wonder, like, was Terry McMillan, one of the leaders of that, at least in modern culture? I don't know.

Nichole Perkins 27:06

But that's a really interesting question. Because Have you read any of her other books?

Traci Thomas 27:12

I haven't. No, it's my first.

Nichole Perkins 27:15

That's okay. Um, so like some of her other books, like Disappearing Act, which was is x or x Disappearing Act, which was also made into a movie with semi late then and Wesley Snipes? Oh, that was not a very, I guess you could say, a very feminist text. Okay. And it was not a very feminist movie, because you're spoiler alert, like, the, the situation between those characters whose names I can't remember right now, but this couple, it was a really toxic situation. And at the end, they are still there is this ambiguity, but it's clear that they are still like, together in a particular kind of way. Right. And then there was some other some other casual was another book that she did. Basically, it was kind of swallow yourself, you know, and to deal with, you know, a bad relationship, which, I don't know. So I'm wondering if maybe that is why waiting to excel took off in the way that it did, because it's a little different from some of her other work. So I don't know, necessarily that I will say that she created a blueprint or that people are following it. Because I think at that time, in the 90s, I think a lot of black women were just going through, you know, from what I can remember, like my, you know, my mom and like older relatives and stuff like that, and, and just watching a lot of TV and everything. I think a lot of people were just trying to figure out, oh, I don't want to be a wife and mom, you know, I don't want to be a stay at home mom. And you know, they were trying to like, regain control of their lives in a particular way. And so this book, and the movie just kind of came at the right time. And it you know, I don't want to say it created the revolution, but I think it gave permission for your internal revolution.

Traci Thomas 29:17

That's it. Yeah. That's sort of what I was getting at is like that she maybe not all of her books or even Terry McMillan herself, but like that this text became sort of the the blueprint for like, I can do my own thing if I want to, like I don't need I don't have to be with a man. Like there's other options for me. But the other like, historical context of this book, which I found interesting, is the book comes out in 1992 1995. The movie comes out. And then in 1996, Oprah starts her book club, and I feel like black women reading publicly becomes a thing and I don't No, I know black women have always read, you know, like that. I'm not suggesting that that's the case at all. But I do think that like, the Terry McMillan of it all, and the Oprah of it all, and of course, Toni Morrison is the first book club pick. And there's like, sort of this public moment, maybe to outsiders, like people who aren't black women, that Oh, black women read and tell stories and all of this stuff. And I just find that to be very interesting to I don't know what it is, but like, it feels like there's something there, you know?

Nichole Perkins 30:29

Yes, absolutely. Because I remember reading a statistic that said black women are the biggest group of readers.

Traci Thomas 30:38

Black college educated women. Yep.

Nichole Perkins 30:40

Yes. Yes, I saw that. So it was at this point, you know, there are always these waves when people realize, oh, black people like this thing. We should cash in on it, right. And so the 90s was a big black literature boom, even though like you said, like people have always been reading and writing. But there was like this wave, do you know black TV, Black movies, Black Books. So that's when we were getting stuff like Terry McMillan. This author, I think her name was Mary Monroe. She would write books like God don't like ugly and God still don't like ugly and things like that. So you had a lot of like, contemporary churchy fiction that wasn't necessarily like, inspirational, but just still, you know, was like, this is for people who go to black churches, right? That kind of stuff. And then, you know, that was like, also when like, Elan Harris, oh, gosh, air drum Dickey, Sister soldier. So though, you know, those were like, big those waves were definitely study. So Oprah, I guess, you know, seeing the success of the book to the movie. And she was just like, you know, she, her people, whatever. And her team were just like, let's do this. You know, we have to. That's another thing. I just think the country just follows black women, we are trendsetters. And they just follow us. So these are also black romance, was finally getting an because I know you don't read romance, but black romance was at that time starting to pop in a really specific way. So, yes, so everything you just said it was a very obvious, kind of like progression of people trying to cash in on what black people were buying and watching and reading and listening to.

Traci Thomas 32:38

So for sure, yeah, I mean, in that, I definitely feel like in the last five or 10 years, we're certainly seeing that, again, in black culture. Like I feel like the art that's coming out the you know, quote, unquote, mainstream things like, I mean, people are obsessed with us.

They should be they should, like, imagine-

Imagine American quote unquote, American culture without black people would be a real wreck. Okay, I want to talk about one of the things that I think aged horribly in this book. But I don't think it's Terry McMillan's fault. I think it was a sign of the times, which is the homophobia, AIDS stuff. Yeah, home man. And again, the book was written in 1992. It's about 1990. And I know and understand very well that at the time, people were terrified of AIDS, they didn't understand it, they knew the wrong thing. You know, like they were told the wrong thing. So like, I don't necessarily think that Terry McMillan is homophobic or whatever. I just think that at the time as a group, everyone was homophobic, very generalizing, you know, but like, the hairdresser assistant, who has a oh my god, and then the husband of the dad of Tareekh, who comes out as gay and was like, I used to be bi but now I'm gay. And like two weeks whole use of the F word, like, holy cow, I was sitting in my seat, like, can I just be finished with this part? Like, it was so hard to read?

Nichole Perkins 34:20

It was really, really bad to the point that I whenever we would see Gloria in the salon with the hairdressers, I would just kind of scam because I was so uncomfortable with the portrayal of the male hair, hairdressers, and Tareekh. You know, in the movie, he gets portrayed as kind of like, Oh, he's just a teenager being difficult, but he was really awful to his mom, you know that with the fat shaming and then just making her feel like crap about you know, when the data comes out, and you know, all that kind of stuff, but I agree with you 100% Also Um, like that whole thing of like, I'm biased, but I was by but now I'm gay. That is such an old stereotype that, you know, by erasure where people just like, No, you're you have to be one or the other. You can't, you know, you can't be by at all. This is just being biased like a stepping stone to what you really want or whatever it is just really awful. The other thing about this is like reading this now with the knowledge of Terry, and I, again, I know, I know, sometimes you're supposed to really, like separate the author from the book. But you reading this now with the knowledge of what happened with Tara McMillan's personal life with her husband, and that relationship, that was the basis of How Stella Got Her Groove Back. And then it turned out that her husband are now ex husband, that he was gay or right, you know, are queer, I can't I don't know how he identified but he, you know, eventually came out and there was a lot of nastiness, you know, around that. So I'm just like, again, just what's going on with Miss McMillan? Like, what? Like, I don't, you know, I don't want to call her homophobic. But definitely, stuff in here was not very flattering. And I, it's really hard for me to know if it's just the text, or if that's her putting some of her own thoughts into the text, you know what I mean? Because like, yeah, you have bad characters, that doesn't necessarily mean that you are a bad person, because you're writing these bad characters, right. And when I say bad, I mean, like moralistically, morally, and ethically bad. But it really made that was another thing that made me comfortable. Like, as I was skimming over some of the stuff because I cannot read how she's talking about these people like this is, you know, how she's writing these people. This is really ugly and unnecessary. Honestly, it was definitely, you know, leftover stuff from the AIDS scare of the 80s. And people were trying to make sense of AIDS and how to navigate the world with AIDS in the 90s. And what you know, what that means to be around people with AIDS? And how do you protect yourself and all that kind of stuff, but it was really uncomfortable.

Traci Thomas 37:19

One of the things that you actually just made me think that I sort of want to reframe what I said before, which is that, I don't know that everyone, or most people were homophobic, necessarily, but I think books like this, and a lot of like public portrayal, and you know, the words from the Reagan's and, you know, I think that that leads to distortion of history, maybe for someone like me, who was younger, in the 90s, early 90s. Were I think that everyone was like that, because that's what I see. But I just want to acknowledge that I know, there were plenty of people in the 80s and 90s, who were not homophobic, who understood how HIV and AIDS worked. And, you know, if not for those people doing the work that they were doing, and living the lives that they were living and being the people that they were, I think, you know, they get erased for these narratives of like, oh, we used to be homophobic just like people get erased, like, oh, we used to be racist, you know, like, I want to just acknowledge those people because what I said before is not fully accurate and I don't want to I just want to acknowledge those people. Yeah. I want to talk about another set of stereotypes that have not aged well, but felt like holy shit, how 90s is this? Of like black men ain't shit slash bitter black women. Like the thing about the book that's interesting to me. And like we both touched on from the beginning is the book sort of holds up great. And then also when you break it down sort of holds up horribly, like, like there's so many things to pick out to be like, that doesn't hold up that doesn't hold up that doesn't hold up, which I think is partially like pop culture. Like I don't know that pop culture holds up great over time, because it is so specific, like to that moment, necessarily give or take some things. But when I watched the movie, I watched it with my brother and his wife, and my brother was like, damning these some bitter black women. And I was like, right, like, the whole book and the whole movie was you boil it down is like sort of horrible.

Nichole Perkins 42:24

Like, yeah, yeah. So I was thinking about that, because I was like, Is this supposed to be a caricature? Like is it supposed to be? I don't think it's necessarily supposed to be satire, but like everyone was. So the depictions of men when they were bad. Were so outside. They were so dramatically bad. You know what I mean?

Traci Thomas 42:49

So even like, who's Robin's boyfriend who's like on crack or doing cocaine or whatever?

Nichole Perkins 42:56

Right? Then you know, every guy is cheating.

Traci Thomas 42:59

Russell is a baby daddy moment. We have Savannah's book guy who's a rich, fancy doctor who's cheating.

Nichole Perkins 43:07

Right, everyone that Savannah seems like was interested in was cheating. You know, even when she like, she goes through a list of the guys that she has been seeing of the last few years. They're just all terrible right now. And even when she's talking about like her sister's husband, he's awful. And the his sister wants to leave him constantly. I wonder if we're supposed to, like, see so much of the bitterness. And it's just like really hammered into our head so that we could finally be like, Oh, we should treat black women with care?

Traci Thomas 43:43

Yeah, yeah, I want to give it that kind of like generous reading for sure. You know, like I like want it to be that I don't want it to be the like caricature version. But it's hard to balance. I think maybe also because the book is like, recent but old, you still feel so relevant. So it doesn't feel like I don't know. It's harder for me to give it like a historical reading because it feels like it's in our lifetime.

Nichole Perkins 44:15

I because I remember when I don't necessarily remember when the book came out. But I remember when the color purple, the film came out. And a lot of black men were very upset at the portrayal of black men in that movie, because they were like, there's no positive portrayal of black men in this in this movie. And so that I don't remember it clearly because I was too young for for that. But I do remember like this lasting trail of discussions about positive images of black men immediate like where are they? How can we get them? What does it mean when black women are not putting out positive images and stuff like that and all this kind of stuff is so boring. You have this discussion and thinking about this, I'm also thinking about the stereotypes of like, black men, leaving black women for white women. Sure, of course. So when Verna Dean's husband leaves her for a white woman, and it is just over and over, they keep saying, John left her, and then there's a pause, and then it's for a white girl. And it was just like, that's even worse, like that is, you know, it's not a bad like him leaving is bad, but him leaving her for a white girl is even worse, and it doesn't even matter that she's younger, you know, which is, which would probably be the thing that some people will focus on. Oh, you know, he's leaving for a 24 year old. But because she's white, then that's like the super focus. And it's just like, I think it's this, I it reinforces this idea. Black women doing so much work, and then you know, getting so much work in the home, and then it getting like, shifted, the credit gets shifted, or like, the rewards get shifted to somebody else. And, you know, that was just a lot in the book. And I forgotten how much that like they'd hammered down on the race stuff. And it was not very nuanced at all.

Traci Thomas 46:20

No, no, not at all. But again, that's what's like, so interesting to me about this book, because if this book came out now, I would be like, this book is not good. You know, like, it's full of all of these things that are not good. But I liked the book. And I liked the way that it made me think about history and like the weight, like the cultural conversation and the shifts, and I don't know, I feel like maybe I'm being like an apologist or something. I don't know. But like, I enjoyed reading it and thinking as I was reading, like, Oh, damn, are like, Oh, that's interesting. And I think that the women hold up a lot around, the women don't hold up. But I think the women, the for women, they for the most part, you know, aside from some homophobia, fat phobia, like a horrible mess, they hold up as humans and and I think that that's probably the core of the book that when the book came out in 1992, all the way till now, is what folks connected with, right, like the four of them.

Nichole Perkins 47:32

Yeah, I would agree with that. I think that's a really good point. Because I think if like, someone who is 20 to 25, who has no frame of reference for the 90s, at all reads this now, they're just gonna be like, this book is awful. Yeah, you know, or even if you were alive during that time, and you're just now reading it, but you didn't have the experience of being like a black person in the 90s, or a black person in a major city in the 90s, you would just end your reading it now it would not go over well. So I do think that maybe my reading now, my impression of it has been softened by the fact that I remember that time. And so it's easier for me to like place myself in that time period and be like, Okay, I remember that the 90s were not the most progressive. I mean, we were trying but you know, obviously, it's not like it is now. But that's what I meant, like earlier, like the women or the still the heart, the meat of the text is still really good. And I think Terry McMillan did a really good job of giving us these very strong characters, even individually, like if you pulled them out of their friendship, you know, they're connecting a friendship. And they were just like, in the book was just a collection of stories. For each of them, I think that they would stand on their own very well. But the connective tissue is still really strong and bonding.

Traci Thomas 49:01

Yeah. And I think also, like, the other thing that we haven't talked about, that I think holds up really well, is the female friendship, right, like the bond between black women to be there for one another, through it all. And not to be related. Right. Like, I think we know that. I mean, I don't know, I know this in my personal experience in my family, with my black relatives, and all of that, is that like black families are very strong units and oftentimes are very connected with like cousins and this and that. And sometimes they're not actually blood related and all of that stuff. But the chosen family as well is like so important, I think for black women specifically, because of all these stereotypes that we get in the book, right? Like because of all these rate reasons and things that go wrong and all of that, like seeing their friendship, really. I mean, it's it's super moving like I think the support of black women for one another is one of the most beautiful, powerful do incredible things and just like Color Purple, like reading it, and seeing it. And I just I find that to be super, super moving.

Nichole Perkins 50:12

Yeah, and one of the things that I picked up on this time around was how the women pamper themselves and did the whole like self care thing before we were calling it self care. And like the beauty rituals of the women. You know, obviously hair was still a big thing here, it's always going to be a big thing for black women. And so even though there was like, again, just kind of like this narrow minded view of like women who wear weaves and stuff like that, and whatever, but there's still that what it means when you change your appearance and you are trying something new and you are giving yourself care in a particular way through your beauty regimen. So I really enjoy like picking up on that aspect through it. And then there was like one more thing that I was like, Bernadine daughter is named Oh, Nika. And I was like, I don't know if omega is a common name in Trinidad Tobago. Where Nicki Minaj is from but that is Nicki Minaj is real name. Her first name is Onika, spelled the exact same way. And I am wondering if she was named after -

Traci Thomas 51:23

Do we know what year she was born?

Nichole Perkins 51:25

I don't know.

Traci Thomas 51:26

Right now. Thank you. Okay, Nicki Minaj was born in 1982. So no, oh, no. Okay. That would have been really great, though.

Nichole Perkins 51:37

I know. Right? Good. I wonder may also now I'm wondering where that name comes from.

Traci Thomas 51:42

That was definitely like that moment in the 90s. To where it was like, Oh, we're giving children African names like, right? Do you remember that was like such a thing. Like, half of my friends had like, you know, names like the sun like John and then half of my friends had like African or like, indigenous names. And I thought that that was that's like such a reference in the movie for sure. Or in the book for sure.

Nichole Perkins 52:06

Just kind of like this reclamation of history and ethnicity.

Traci Thomas 52:11

Yeah. And the fucking husband John like hating all the black things and like that self loathing black, you know, OJ Simpson II vibe, right? Like, where it's like, I don't have any black things in my house. I'm gonna marry this white woman. Like, that's like such a character. Not that John is a murderer. I just, you know that he was just one of the most prominent 90s Anti black black people. I feel like OJ, for that.

Nichole Perkins 52:37

Yeah. So that was another thing that I was like, Oh, I forgotten about this. But that's something that still I don't know if it's necessarily prevalent, or really, if it ever was, but this idea that black people's upward mobility is predicated upon them their distance between their blackness. Yeah. So that was, you know, obviously a very strong commentary.

Traci Thomas 53:06

I feel like that's shifting that's shifting for sure. Like, I think there's that reclamation of like, I can be black as I want to be, and I can be successful, but I definitely think in the 90s that was a thing. For sure. Yeah. Oh, wait, one more thing that has aged well, and then we'll get off this. Robin's obsession with like, crystals and astrology and stuff like Robin. Hello, like, because back in the 90s, that was like super woowoo stuff. Now there's like, everyone, I mean, I live in LA. So that might be part of my understanding, but I feel like everyone knows their rising side, you know, like, everyone was like, into that. Like, when I got pregnant, my friend was like, Oh, well, what will? What will your children's sign be? It's very important. I was like, Well, I don't know. Find out.

Nichole Perkins 53:59

Yes, and this interesting, because that stuff was kind of used to characterize her as like an airhead or someone or like, yeah, they shouldn't take very seriously and like, you know, she is portrayed as, like, the silly techie person or whatever. And really, she's just, like, all of them just want it to be loved. They just want love and they want clarity in their life. And, you know, for Robin.

Traci Thomas 54:30

Robin would do so well, in 2021 I feel absolutely. I feel like Bernie probably wouldn't do great in 2021 but I feel like Robin would thrive right now.

Nichole Perkins 54:41

I think so too. Yeah, I think so too. And I think Gloria, Gloria will be good. Lori will be Yeah, she would be fine.

Traci Thomas 54:49

And Savannah would of course be thriving. I feel like yeah, Anna Savannah is gonna thrive wherever she is. Yeah. Okay. The last thing we always talk about, is cover and title I think you and I have the same cover with like the woman looking out the window. Yeah. But there's also the black title or the black cover with like the for dancing women. Yes. Yeah, that's the one my mom had when I was growing up. I couldn't find her copy. I think she got rid of it. But the cover of this with like the woman gazing out the window at the tree is like, truly isn't. It's just a nothing to me. Like I'm like, okay, like, yes, this does not look like the book at all, I think you need four people on the cover. And this is just like, I don't know.

Nichole Perkins 55:32

I completely agree with you again on that side. Because I was like, This just looks like basic women's fiction. I mean, I guess that's what this book is categorized as is women's fiction, right. But it just looks so generic. And I was looking for the copy of the book with the black cover and the art on it. So I was looking at used place new stores online, but it was a little expensive, more than I want it to pay at the time. Because that, like you that's the one that my mom had the hardback with the with the cover. And I remember that it that also launched this particular prominence of black art, like kind of abstract black art at the time, and everybody was going out getting that I remember that. If not that artists but then other art like it being used for in magazines and all these other places. And it was like a sign of, of being bougie if you have that art in your in your house and everything if you gotta print like it, but yeah, I don't I think it needs the four women represented on the cover. That's important, because it's like, I don't know who this is supposed to be. Yeah, on the cover this one. And there's even another cover that I saw that was even more generic and bland.

Traci Thomas 56:55

Yes, I saw that one too. I can't remember. But I saw the third cover. I was like, wait, what? Yeah, so I don't know, who's in charge of the covers, but they need to get it together.

Nichole Perkins 57:05

Yeah. And then this cover has- And I understand this, because this is you. This is usually what happens when you get to a certain level and publishing but your name is much bigger than the title. And I just feel like the title should be bigger. Or at least the same size.

Traci Thomas 57:22

I agree. Yeah, I wonder if it's also because they wanted it to be all on one line. Because then do you do Waiting to Exhale? Or do you like Waiting to Exhale? Or do you do wait it like, Are You Waiting to Exhale, like, I don't know, the title itself. I feel like it come it comes up early in the book, it comes up on like page 17 And our copy. And it's Savannah, talking about like, wanting to finally like be able to relax a little bit in life and feel like comfortable where she is. And then she exhales when she's like with a weird guy who sells the fire trucks when they're dancing or whatever. Yeah. Oh my god, he was a real psycho. I really didn't like him. I was so glad he was gone. But I don't know. I like the title. I don't. I don't know that I needed an explanation in the text. Like I don't it didn't move me much when I got to that part or like it happened a few other times. I think Bernie exhales maybe they all exhale at some point.

Nichole Perkins 58:16

Yeah, I think that was a little overkill. I understand why it had to happen. But I do agree that it could have. I don't know, maybe there was a softer way to do it.

Traci Thomas 58:29

Yeah. Okay, anything else you want to say about this book Nichole?

Nichole Perkins 58:33

No, I don't think so. I, um, there was another line, like maybe on the first page. The Savannah says, there's a big difference between being thirsty and being dehydrated. And again, I think that that just goes, this speaks to the larger thing of don't settle and like, you know, you can have a need, but you don't. Maybe it's not as pressing as you think it is. Yeah. And kind of looking out for yourself and taking care of yourself in a in a particular way that I thought that was funny. There are a lot of oh, that's the humor of this book. Yes. So there's sometimes a, you know, again, it's kind of wrapped in that fat phobia and homophobia. But when it's away from those two things, the humor in that book is really sharp, I think and it's, it's not like, you know, a knee slapping kind of funny, but it's definitely just like a little thing that makes you chuckle to yourself. So I think that kind of that stays, you know, that has aged fairly well, again, if it's not connected to those two major issues.

Traci Thomas 59:41

Right. It sort of works. Yeah, there's definitely a good humor and like, also, the book just feels really black, which I like, like it doesn't feel like she's writing it for white audiences at all. And that's cool, because I feel like so many authors, at least now are concerned about like being mainstream. Even for like their editors or their agents or whatever are telling them like this won't sell, you need to change it. And like this book didn't really feel like that, like it felt like she was like, I'm writing this book for black woman and like this is it. Thanks.

Nichole Perkins 1:00:11

Yeah, yeah, that's one of the things. I think we stepped away from the term Own Voices. Now, my understanding, but that's one of the things that I kind of that bothered me is that it seemed like a lot of these books were explaining stuff to their white audiences, or they were like, you know, there was just a lot of like, this is my culture. This is a cultural thing that we do, right? Here's why, you know, and I'm just like, just just say it, you don't have to explain it. Because like what we talked about earlier, we can go look up something, you know, we have the means to look that up. But yes, this book was just definitely for black women with if you get it, you get it, and you just keep it moving.

Traci Thomas 1:00:53

Yeah. 1,000%. Okay, everybody. I think that we'll wrap up our conversation today with Nichole, before we get out of here. Just want to remind you to check out Nichole's book. It is a memoir in essays. It's not what you call it a memoir in essays. That's what I call it. Yeah, that's what I've been calling it. So, good job on you. You wrote something I can classify. It's called Sometimes I Trip on How Happy We Could Be. It's named after a Prince song, not a Beyonce song. You can find Nichole on the internet. She's on Twitter. She's on Instagram. She's got a great website. It's all linked in the show notes. But do check out Nichole's book. Nichole, thank you so much for being here.

Nichole Perkins 1:01:30

Thank you, thank you for giving me a reason to go back to this. You know, as problematic as it is, and it was still really refreshing and nice to reread it.

Traci Thomas 1:01:39

I agree. I'm glad I finally read it. So thank you, and everybody else, we will see you in the stacks.

All right, that does it. Thank you all for listening. And thank you to Nichole for being my guest. This week, I am thrilled to announce that in November, we will continue our journey through Toni Morrison's novels with Song of Solomon. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, November 24. And you can tune in next Wednesday to find out who our guest will be for that conversation. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join The Stacks Pack. Make sure you're subscribed to The Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave a rating and a review. For more from The Stacks follow us on social media at thestackspod on Instagram, Threads and TikTok and at thestackspod_ on Twitter and you can check out my website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

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