Unabridged: Poetry Therapy - Transcript
If you’ve ever felt like you didn’t “get it” when it comes to poetry, The Stacks is here for a little poetry therapy featuring five spectacular poets breaking down their favorite poems. We are joined by José Olivarez, Morgan Parker, Saeed Jones, Nate Marshall and Gabrielle Bates. Each has selected a poem to read with Traci; then they discuss what they notice, how it works, and why it excites them. This episode is for folks who love poetry, those who cower in fear, and everyone in between.
José Olivarez
“Sink Your Fingers into the Darkness of my Fur” by Ellen Bass
Morgan Parker
“won’t you celebrate with me” by Lucille Clifton
Saeed Jones
“What Do Women Want” by Kim Addonizio
Nate Marshall
Evolution of My Block by Jacob Saenz
Gabrielle Bates
I’ve Been Thinking about Love Again by Vievee Francis
Connect with Gabrielle: Instagram | Twitter | Website
TRANSCRIPT
Traci Thomas 0:00
Hi everybody, it's me Traci Thomas host of The Stacks and today is an extra special bonus episode of The Stacks Unabridged. It's a celebration we're calling Poetry Explained or maybe Poetry Therapy. I'm not quite sure. Here's how it'll work. I've invited five different poets onto the podcast. Each one of them picked a poem for us to read together and discuss they're going to help me break it down, explain what makes the poem good and exciting, and talk about all my poetry, anxiety and fears. I will be joined by Jose Olivarez, Morgan Parker, Nate Marshall, Gabrielle Bates and Saeed Jones. So hopefully today with the help of my five poet friends, we can learn something and get excited about reading poetry. Okay, that's enough for me if you're still listening, if you want to listen to this episode, and you want to follow along on each poem, I have given you links to each poem in the shownotes right there for you. That's enough for me. Let's dive in!
Alright, everybody to kick this thing off. I am joined by friend of the podcast one of my favorite people and poets, Jose Olivarez. You might remember him from coming on the podcast last year for his collection Promises of Gold, which was long listed for the National Book Award. He's also written other poetry collections, including Citizen Illegal and Por Siempre, which features amazing visuals from Antonio Salazar. The Paris Review has spoken of the abiding love and humor and Jose's work about the quote, painful laughter that comes with so much truth. All right, everybody, it is April. It is Poetry Month, we're trying something brand new. I'm really excited because... I'll tell you guys a little secret. I am a poet. I'm in a group chat with friends of the show, Jose Olivarez and Nate Marshall, it's called Three Poets. I'm obviously the third one. It's called that because I named it that they didn't. You didn't ask for this. But one day, I'm in the group chat. And I'm talking, we're talking about what poetry collection we're going to do. And I'm asking the guys like, Should I do this one, this one, you know, whatever. They're helping me. And then Jose is like, it would be really fun if I came on the show, and like taught you how to do poetry. And I was like, this is a great idea. What if we had a bunch of different poets bring on their favorite poem. And then we talked about it and they taught me how to read and love poetry. And so that's what we're going to do. And because it was Jose's idea, Jose's our first guest, so Jose, welcome. I'm so excited about this.
José Olivarez 2:32
I'm so excited about this. I'm so glad you enjoyed the idea. I think this one will be great.
Traci Thomas 2:37
Well, one of the things I'll just say this- last year, we did Ross Gay's Catalog of Unabashed Gratitude. And I it was like our third, I think, third poetry collection we've done on the show. And I struggled with it as I do with most poetry collections. And after I aired that episode, I got a text from another poet that was like, we get it, you're bad at poetry, just read the words. And I was like, okay, and not really actually like, kind of shook me out of my feeling like I needed to disclaim being bad at poetry. So for this year's episode, which folks haven't heard yet, which is The January Children, I actually just was like, Yeah, I didn't get some of it. But these are the things I did got. And these are the words and we read a lot of the poems out loud. And it was really great. And I think that I've been doing everyone a disservice by being like, I'm shit at poetry, because I don't think that matters. I feel like in letting that go, I've gotten slightly better. So I'm really excited to do this, because I don't feel as intimidated as I think I did maybe three years ago. So that's why I really liked this idea. I feel like I'm ready. I'm ready for it.
José Olivarez 3:39
Yeah, I mean, I think that's great. I also think part of what intrigued me about doing this with you is that I feel like there's a lot of people that share that sentiment, right have those same hesitations of like, I get, what the words are, like, I know what the definitions are. I kind of understand the sentences, but I don't really get the full picture, you know.
Traci Thomas 4:04
Okay, so what we're going to do this is this is your plan. You want me to read the poem, just straight through? Then we're going to talk about it. And then you're going to tell me what you think about it and why you chose it and why you love it. And we'll kind of just talk about it for a few minutes. Okay, so the poem you chose is called Sink Your Fingers into the Darkness of My Fur by Ellen Bass. Okay, everyone, I'm gonna read poetry to a poet. Let's go. Here we go. Up until this sore minute, you could turn the key pivot away. But mine is the only medicine now wherever you go or follow. The past is so far away, but it flickers, then cleaves the night, the bones of the past Splinter between our teeth. This is our life love. Why did I think it would be anything less than too much of everything? I know you remember that cheap motel on the coast? post where we drink red wine, the sea flashing its gold scales as sun soaked our skin. You said This must be what people mean when they say I could die now. Now we're so much closer to death than we were then who isn't crushed stubbed out beneath a clumsy heel? Who hasn't stood at the open window sleepless for the solace of the damp air. I had to get old to carry both buckets yoked on my shoulders. sweet and bitter waters I drink from? Let me know you, ox you. I want your scent in my hair. I want your jokes. Hang your kisses on all my branches, please sink your fingers into the darkness of my fur. The end. How did we do?
José Olivarez 5:49
Snaps. Wherever you're listening, get your snaps together.
Traci Thomas 5:52
Yeah, I'm a poet- the third poet. Okay. Let me tell you the big thing of this poem that I noticed and that every time I've read it, that was my fourth time reading it. So I read it three times to myself, before we did this, that was my fourth time reading it. And every single time when it gets to the part at the end, that's like I had to carry I had to get old to carry both buckets. That is the part to me where it feels like the whole whole poem shifts. I don't know if it's like the verse changes or something rhythmically changes. But the language seems to change. That is where I feel like I get lost. Like I get confused with the poem. Like to me that felt like a shift. And I don't know what it is what what she's done there. But that, to me is like the biggest thing. It feels like a poem about lovers getting old. I don't know. My sense, like growing old together and like reminiscing on their days.
José Olivarez 6:49
That's yeah, I mean, you're right. I mean, so on the page, essentially the link to the American Academy of poets. And you can see that it says the occasion is for Valentine's Day, right?
Traci Thomas 6:59
Oh, I didn't even read any of the stuff on the right. I didn't look at anything but the words of the poem.
José Olivarez 7:04
Perfect. Doesn't matter. But yeah, absolutely. You're right in intuiting, that this is a romantic poem of sorts that these are two old lovers. I mean, they you know, they reminisce back to that day. Is that what is it? The old motel? Yeah, cheap motel on the coast? I mean, you say that's the moment you get lost? Go back. Tell me about what's your kind of feeling? And if any of those lines before then kind of hooked you?
Traci Thomas 7:30
Okay. The light. My favorite part that I the part that I really liked is the you said This must be what people mean when they say I could die now, period. Now, end of line. I love that. I love ending a line on a now because now is such a big good, juicy word and having now and now. Because I also really like punctuation and line and things. I think that they're both really important. I know a lot of people just read to the punctuation, but I try to honor the line ending. And so I feel like having that short line that's I could die now. Period. Now, we're so much closer, another short line, that little chunk. I just really liked that part.
José Olivarez 8:13
I love it. I love it so much. And there's so many of those juicy linebreaks. To me, I mean, you could go back to long for right? The past is so far away. But it flickers linebreak then cleaves the night, this image of the past kind of coming back and then coming back forcefully again in the next line, the bones right in line five, like ending that line. I feel like line breaks are excellent in this poem.
Traci Thomas 8:42
But let me let me ask you this. Yes. So my thing with poetry is that a lot of times, I like a sentence or a line, right? Like the things we called out. But I think that I struggle with the bigger like thing that makes a poem good. And I know there's no answer for that. But with like nonfiction or with with fiction, I kind of can tell you like what makes a book Good. But I really struggle like why is this poem exciting or good or interesting to you? Why is this poem worthy of being the poem we discussed today?
José Olivarez 9:18
For me, there's an energy that a poem has and this poem starts right from the beginning. For me, my favorite part is the opening up until this sore mini, you could turn the key, pivot away, and then talk about like, the second line, third line feels like the most swagger fourth thing you could say. But mine is the only medicine now. Wherever you go or follow, like the kind of Verve you have to have to be like, there's nothing else in the world for you. Yeah, there's nothing else in the world for you. It's me. That's it. That's all you get. Now it's the only medicine to whatever ails you, right?
Traci Thomas 10:03
Those two lines meant nothing to me. I thought the film doesn't even start til... I think the beginning of poems are really hard for me because I think I'm like, what's happening? What's happening? But that's so funny because it was meant nothing to me. But now of course, I'm like, Oh!
José Olivarez 10:17
You see it though right? I mean, for me, that opening is just, that's where the energy picks up, and then to not lose that energy. Right. So to go right into, this is our life love. Why did I think it would be anything less than too much of everything? You know, it's just, it continues to kind of build and build. I love the line the questions, as you said, and it's specifically the second one who isn't crushed stubbed out beneath the clumsy heel. Like, to me what I love about that question is one, the word crushed, right? It's a romantic poem. And it brings up the feelings of having a crush on someone, and then being stomped out, being stubbed out under a heel, kind of like a cigarette, which is also kind of a sexy image, right? The heel itself. So it's that precise, like that clean that energetic, who hasn't stood at the open window, sleepless for the solace of the damp air and then we get to the line that you had questions of, I had to get old to carry both buckets yoke on my shoulders. sweet and bitter waters I drink from this is a line where like, I can't tell you exactly what it means. You know what I mean?
Traci Thomas 11:37
Like, yeah, okay, good. I'm glad because I can't either.
José Olivarez 11:40
I don't know what- for me, this is kind of the art of poetry, which is like, I can't tell you why Ellen went to this particular image of someone carrying two buckets of water, right. But the next that next part, sweet and bitter waters I drink from and then I'm like, Alright, I know what to do with sweet and bitter waters, right? Like, it's to say, like, it's not, it's not just a hotel, right? We're old enough to know that this is going to end that there may be now there's more bitter waters than sweet ones, because we're, you know, closer to the end than we are to the beginning. And then we get the bill towards the end, right? You said it was kind of the pivot the shift. Let me know you, ox you. I don't again, ox you. I didn't grow up near oxes. That doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot to me. But ox you, animal you immediately you know what I mean? Like, there's something like that intimate. And then the last three lines, I want your jokes. Hang your kisses on all my branches, please. You can end the poem right there. Hang your kisses on all my branches, please. First of all, I love the word please. In a poem. It feels so good. It's like when a singer sings it?
Traci Thomas 12:59
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because it's like, you can tack it on to anything. It could go at the beginning, it could go at the end, it could go in the middle. Like, it's just it's a really good word.
José Olivarez 13:09
It's a great word. It almost sounds like you're begging you know what I mean? In this context, please sink your fingers into the darkness of my firt. That image is just so strong. There's like the I mean, obviously, darkness of the fire. There's more of this kind of like animal knowing of one another. It's intimate. But it's not intimate in kind of the predictable ways that we might think about intimacy, right? It's not like in the same intimacy, and not that there's anything wrong with that. But this is like, we've established that the stakes are high. You know, there's no medicine for you other than me, we're going to die together. To me, it's just like, I get chills just thinking about it. Like it's just, it's it's a banger. It's so good.
Traci Thomas 13:56
Okay, wait, I have a theory about the part that I didn't think I understood before. Okay. Go with me. I had to get old to carry both buckets yoke on my shoulders. And I think that when you when an ox yoke an ox, I think that's what you do. Right? But I think what she's saying there is that she had she couldn't carry both the sweetness and the bitterness at once until she was old. She could only carry one or the other of the buckets, which is why she says I have to get old to carry both buckets. And like it was that as she got older, she realized that she could be crushed and stubbed out but also it could be great. And also she could you know so I think that's what she's saying. And then maybe ox you is like maybe it's like an invitation for her to show her lover. That same. Boldness like let me give you the ability to do both things.
José Olivarez 14:46
Yes, I love that. I think that's right on. Okay. Yeah, absolutely. Great.
Traci Thomas 14:51
We did it. We solved the poem. I'm a genious. Next poem!
José Olivarez 14:55
We did it.
Traci Thomas 14:59
I feel like that was fun. I like talking about poems with people. I think maybe reading poems by yourself is not fun. But I also don't do this work when I read a poem. Like if I'm reading a collection, I don't spend like, time I just read the poem. And then I'm like, did I feel things? Cool? Did I not? Okay, next poem? Like, are you giving poems, this amount of attention when you're reading them?
José Olivarez 15:23
So for me, that's the big thing is that, for me, poetry forces me to slow down. Because otherwise I miss it. You know, I mean, like you said about the opening, right? If I go too fast, I miss just how much energy is it now? Certain, there's writers that I trust, right. And so I'll, you know, Ellen Bass, for me is one of those poets. If she drops a new poem. It's like, I'm clearing everything. I just want my coffee. And I'm like, Alright, let's see what we have here. Right. Now, if I'm reading a poet that I don't know, you know, I'm not necessarily going that slow. Because we don't have that kind of trust, right? I'm trying to see like, all right, is there something that catches my attention? And then if it does, then I'll kind of come back and be like, Alright, let me make sure that I'm really, you know, to use the language of the poem sinking my fingers into this.
Traci Thomas 16:18
Okay, I think maybe I need to start sinking my fingers more.
José Olivarez 16:23
It's a slower process, I think. I think it's a slower process than reading fiction or nonfiction. Because the point isn't just to convey information. It's, it's almost the opposite of fiction where like fixing you want it to be pasty, at least for me, you want it to move, right? This one, it's like, you got to kind of pause yourself and really, like, stay with the poet a little bit longer.
Traci Thomas 16:45
I think, okay, I love this, I could do this for a lot longer my idea of like, 10 minutes, a poem I know is gonna be sorry, everybody, you're all gonna get like seven hours of poetry. Who else is writing poetry that you feel like is good, but also accessible to people who are like me, who are like wanting to read poetry and like excited about it, but also feel like, like ROS gay was too much for me, the poems are too long, I can't do that. I'm not ready. I also felt similarly about some of Courtney's poems. They were just so long that I couldn't hold everything that I had read. So for me, like, I want something that feels like not like baby's first poems, but not like Ross, gay, complex genius of the world. You know, like, I want someone who I'm like, Okay, you're challenging me. But like, I can fuck with this a little bit. Like, I like the challenge. So who else is like that to you?
José Olivarez 17:39
The first name that comes to mind is Lucille Clifton. And she's not a contemporary poet, right? She's passed away. But her poems are kind of, they're from the future, like they're, a lot of them are a lot shorter. They're not super long. But they they're doing so much. I mean, one of the ways that I learned to end a poem is from reading Lucille, right? And she ends her poems, often with something that feels like a punch line. And that alone can kind of get you into the poem and be like, Oh, let me see how Lucille sets this up. You know, another one that I would try is at a cell escape mine, in particular, her first two books, I mean, probably the second book more than anything kingdom and Amalia. Now, she is a peer of Ross's right, they've been, I think they were in grad school together. And so you can see some of some hallmarks of each other in their work. And so if you thought that Ross gave was like a little bit to advance, and maybe you'll feel the same about ourselves, but ourselves as someone who I started reading when I was kind of figuring out my way, and was kind of a bridge poet for me from like, the early stuff I enjoyed, which was more spoken word stuff, performance stuff. So like figuring out how exactly to read poems on the page, right? She has an incredible poem called Low is for every berry that she wrote about this like card that a little girl gave her that's like, honestly, like, I'm gonna get the title of that poem. Emotional.
Traci Thomas 19:15
I feel like I feel like you're getting emotional!
José Olivarez 19:17
I can't help it. I think a lot about Fatuma Oscar.
Traci Thomas 19:23
Oh, yeah, I loved the purple one. If they come for us, it's called. I love that. That was one of the first poetry collections I read where I was like, am I into poetry? Yeah, like the whole thing. I was like, it was one of my best books of the year, I think in 2018 or 19. Whenever it came out, I loved it.
José Olivarez 19:41
Yeah. So I would say her. Oh, and then Eve Ewing. I think specifically Electric Arches. If you're like a beginner trying to get into poetry Electric Arches is a perfect book. Oh, one last one is um, Sharon Olds has a book What's the it's called? But it's named after a particular wine. Stag's Leap is the one particularly for anybody out there going through heartbreak. This is the medicine. This is the one. This is the one amazing.
Traci Thomas 20:17
We've gone way over. This one won't be the long one. I'll try to keep wrangled that I mean, who say, Well, everyone if you don't even know what I didn't even give him a real intro, I'll probably have done it in post so you will have heard it but his book of poems that I love so much promises of gold, it's out it's a year old, right? It's a year old. Get it. It's so good. And it's an English and Spanish. Thank you for those who are bilingual. I did love it. I understood some of your poems. The one about Cheetos really spoke to me.
José Olivarez 20:50
I appreciate that. Good, good. Excellent.
Traci Thomas 20:56
Right next up, Morgan Parker, who is a novelist, essayist, and poet who was born and raised in Southern California. Her poetry collections include Other People's Comfort Keeps Me Up at Night. There Are More Beautiful Things than Beyonce and Magical Negro, which was the winner of the 2019 National Book Critics Circle Award. The Guardian has called her poetry fierce, playful and political, writing that Parker's poems celebrate the everyday just as they face off ancestral hurt. And now Morgan has a brand new essay collection called You Get What You Pay For. Okay, everybody, I'm so excited talking today to Morgan Parker, poet and now essayist. Also, I did love the essay collection. I read it in like a day was amazing. But we're going to talk to you about poems you're going to do you picked Won't You Celebrate with Me by Lucille Clifton. So I'm gonna read it to you and then we'll get going. Okay? Won't you celebrate with me what I have shaped into a kind of life. I had no model born in Babylon, both non white and woman, what did I see to be accept myself, I made it up here on this bridge between Starshine and clay, my one hand holding tight my other hand, come celebrate with me that every day something has tried to kill me and has failed. Okay, here's what I think. I mean, I think this is kind of a straightforward poem. However, I think that I'm missing a lot, because I know that this is a really beloved poem. So I feel like there's a lot at work that I'm not seeing. It feels like sort of like one of those things where it's like a trick question. But I think like, the obvious read that I get is that this is a poem about being a Black woman who figures out her own path forward her own life, and says, I don't know, I didn't know. But I made it up as I went along. And like, Please clap. And I really like it. I love the question marks. I love the last line of or like the last few lines, everyday something he tried to kill me and failed, which is I think I knew that from a collection of essays that came out last year that I read had that title. And she did reference of course, it came from Lucille Clifton poem, but I am not super familiar with Lucille Clifton. So I'm really excited to talk to you about this today. So you tell me, first of all, how did I do that? I get it. Right. Is that sort of the gist?
Morgan Parker 23:15
You did fantastic. I mean, the best poems are the most simple like, are were, to me that are discussing the most simple things. I'm like, I made it up as a black woman, and I made it and give me my flowers. You know, that's really simple. And the poetry of it is how in so few words, she says so much so much. And the way that she plays with line breaks, and the way that she pays so much attention to each word, it is almost a prayer of sorts, because you're savoring every word, you're taking time with those words. And, for me, this poem really is a source of meditation. I do have a tattoo of this poem, not the whole poem, but it says Starshine and there's a lot and and then it says, Clay. And I just I think about that line, you know, that the line between Starshine and clay and, but that's poetry, right? Like, you can say, Heaven and Earth, or you can say, between Starshine and clay. And that's what's so exciting about this poem is the subtleties. And how simple it is, you know, I've read this poem recited it around a table of my aunties, and you know, they don't they didn't get their MFA in poetry.
Traci Thomas 24:36
Right, me neither.
Morgan Parker 24:40
Anyone can I mean, but they have lived hard lives and they made it you know, so there is something so universal, and so sweet about this point because of that. It really does feel like a moment of celebration and pointing out that the moment of celebration is necessary, even by You know, beginning this with that question of once you celebrate with me, there's something underneath that the the loneliness of making it up as you go along, you know, for me that it's key that it's why don't you celebrate with me? She's already celebrating herself. And it's a question of asking for that celebration.
Traci Thomas 25:23
Yeah, it's like an invitation, right? Like, I didn't say this before, but like, this poem does have a warmth to it, right like that. And I think maybe that is that with me, once you celebrate with me, is such an invitation and also such a warmth, do you invite your most beloved, to celebrate with you?
Morgan Parker 25:42
Yes. And I'm so glad you pointed out the question marks also, because I do love, you know, punctuation and thinking about what punctuation is used. When exclamation points are used question marks, it's really, it's really signifying something. And what's cool about these is that they're both operating in different ways. The first is this sort of, won't you come with me this invitation? And the second is this kind of rhetorical question to the self? What did I see to be except myself? So even in the use of that same, you know, interrogative, she's using it differently, and kind of the poem is shape shifting as we go along.
Traci Thomas 26:24
Okay, let me ask you this about the line endings, because you brought them up. And that is my obsession as a poetry reader, I think, punctuation in line endings. So I'm wondering because you said this, that she does interesting things with line endings. So what is what is interesting to you about what she's done here with the line endings.
Morgan Parker 26:42
So maybe my favorite thing about poetry is, is enjambent that when you break a line, but not on the full, like, you maybe would put a sentence into lines, yeah, we break it up. It's something that I really missed when I was writing prose. You can't do any other way. But what happens is that you get a cool double meaning often, where it means one thing on on its own line. And then when you read the lines together, it can mean something else. And this poem, I think, does that in such an incredible way. And I do think about it a lot, just as an example. One line that sticks out to me, right in the middle of this poem, is I made it up. That's the line. The next line is here on this bridge between so it's I made it up here, but it's also I made it up here on this bridge. You know, I love the way that the poem is able to do both of those things, just by having those few words on a line on their own. You get both meetings, you get I made it up and you get it. I made it up here, you know?
Traci Thomas 27:55
Yeah, yeah. So it's I've like love hearing you say this, because I'm such a rigid person, which is why I think I struggle with poetry because like, I'm so rigid. And you know, my therapist and I are talking a lot recently.
Morgan Parker 28:08
Oh, God poetry helps for this.
Traci Thomas 28:10
Yes, yes, because it makes you not be rigid, but I can't not read. Like I, if I'm going to read through the lines, I have to at least read at once just straight up to the line ending no interpretation. Because I knew I was gonna read this out loud. I sort of like played around with it. But it's it never occurred to me that I made it up here. I made it up here. I just write it up here on this bridge between?
Morgan Parker 28:36
Well, that's the thing it's like, and that's why poems are so like, endlessly giving, because you can go back to it and notice something like that, where you're just reading it from a different perspective. Yeah. And yeah, this poem, kind of, it does that for me a lot, I think, because the lines are really short. Yes. And so simple. The language isn't you're not wondering, I wonder what that word means, you know, you really can take a lot more time to think about, what does this mean on its own? What is it? What are these words make me think of on their own? And then what does it mean for them to be put together? And what are the choices that she's making? Another point that I noticed is that she breaks the line, come celebrate. And then she breaks the line with me that everyday toward the end? And I really love that, you know, like just making you pay attention to certain words. And it really places the emphasis where we need it.
Traci Thomas 29:34
Yeah. And I mean, I think they're like, that's also again, sort of an invitation to maybe slow down, right? Like that. She's like, Come celebrate with me, like, come on. It's okay, we're gonna do this together. This is such a great thing. I'm still alive. And so are you if you're gonna celebrate with me, like we're all still here. Right?
Morgan Parker 29:53
I mean, that's not a that's not a reflection to rush through. Right. Yeah. And I think that's something about this poem that it So it could so easily be like a hashtag word, you're like, Yeah, we made it, okay. But there's something about the meditative quality of the short lines and the pacing of the poem, make you really take that time to actually stop and celebrate and think about what it is to make it up. And to make it up here, and what it is to be, you know, even between this, you know, on this bridge between Starshine and clay, that's, that's a life that's, we are living in the bridge, you know? And what does that feel like? So we're, we're going along this whole journey, because we're forced to kind of pause at each line and take in each word.
Traci Thomas 30:42
For people who like this poem, and I'm sure she has, you know, obviously a wide breadth of poems, but things that are sort of similar to this kind of poem. What would you suggest to folks?
Morgan Parker 30:52
Well, you could point to her qualities in all everyone's problems. Yeah. And I think that, you know, we all study her and text about these phones and talk about these phones. You could point to Jose's poems and, and see Lucille Clifton, right. You could say Woodside and my blogs. You know, Elizabeth Alexander's sometimes with pacing. I also, man, it really is. I mean, Gwendolyn Brooks does a lot in a short poem, and I appreciate that about, about her work kind of in a similar stripped down way, though. Yeah, it's I mean, Jordan, her shorter poems, for sure. has a similar way of making you slow down with each individual word and, and consider their placement. Okay, man, throw a twist. I'm gonna throw, right.
Traci Thomas 31:44
Yes. Okay. I'm like looking at my bookshelf. No, no, you've done great. You've answered that question. But here's my wrench. I am a black woman, as are you. And I am interested in black women. However, I was raised on white male poets. And what I found really interesting in this project is only one poet brought a male poet to the forefront, who are male poets besides Roski, who I know and maybe like the people who have been on the show like Clint Smith, who me you know, like those guys who were male poets who are great right now, are there any that are super interesting and exciting to you? Because I feel like I'm sort of like men be gone, except for the guys. I've become like, friendly with through this show. But I'm like, I don't know other guys. So I'm just curious.
Morgan Parker 32:27
Yeah, I mean, the folks that you mentioned, Clint, Nate, Saeed Hanif. Charif Shanahan. Tommy Pico, Cortney Lamar Charleston, and we've done him on the show we've done. I mean, it's gonna be the homies.
Traci Thomas 32:47
I'll take it. I'm glad I know, the cool, guys. Okay, that's fine. That's all you had to say. I just wasn't seeing- Are there others? I mean, I know there are.
Morgan Parker 32:53
There certainly are. There certainly are, but they're, you know, I mean, in terms of conversation, that's, that's another thing is that we're kind of in a moment of a lot of us have been anthologized together, you know, I think about breakbeat poets and things like that where there are, you know, you kind of could leap off one into one another. So yeah, that it's, it's a little bit of a world. But, yeah, they really are out here. And they do, you know, they do exist, and I feel it. You know, I read journals and get the poem a days and I'm continually like, oh, okay, yeah, yeah. They're out here.
Traci Thomas 33:29
No, for sure. I feel like that question is sort of like what I imagined like a poetry editor in like 1970 would say about black women. They're like are there black women writing poems?! Like, I feel really like I flipped the script. But I think it's just like my interests. Like I don't I'm not really a huge poetry person. And I know the poets I know because I like the poems they write. So I'm like, who's doing that? But that was helpful for me. Well, everybody, go read Morgan's poetry collections. She's got four? Three collections, then a YA book, then prose. Morgan. This was amazing. Thank you so much.
Morgan Parker 33:30
Thank you so much. I appreciate everything you do.
Traci Thomas 33:31
All right, y'all. Here it is. Saeed Jones, author and host of one of my favorite podcasts Vibe Check. The poet whose collection Prelude to Bruise when a 2015 pen Joyce Oster will award for poetry. We talked beside back in 2022 about his collection Alive at the End of the World, which I just loved. The New Yorker said Saeed writes in the space between wreckage and resilience, I agree. That all followed up sites acclaimed memoir, which was called How we Fight for Our Lives. One of my faves. Saeed was born in Memphis, Tennessee and grew up in Louiseville, Texas. Alright everybody. We are here with Saeed Jones, one of my favorite people and favorite poets and just my gossip partner, Saeed. Welcome.
Saeed Jones 34:57
Hello, it's so good to be back. Traci. Hi.
Traci Thomas 34:59
Okay, we're gonna read a poem together. I'm going to read it to you. And then actually wait. Before I even read it. I want to tell people a quick story. I mentioned it, they they've heard a little bit about it previously, but I'm going to tell the story now. So last every year, you know, we do our poetry collection on the podcast every year. I'm like, I'm bad at poetry. And last year, we did Ross Gay, and we had met right before, I think you listen to that episode, right around the time the episode came out, and you text me, and you were like, Bitch, just read the poem!
Saeed Jones 35:33
I was in Boston, I was traveling for something. And I listened to the episodes like, let me let me text her, what is going on.
Traci Thomas 35:39
And I have to tell you, even though it was very aggressive and mean and not poet friendly. It actually has totally changed how we talked about poetry for the episode that will come out at the end of this month, because I really tried to not do the thing where I was like, I'm bad at poems, and I tried to just be like, this line is great, or like, let's read this section, or let's talk about it. So even though you bullied me into this position, I'm really grateful that you're welcome that you called me names and told me to get my shit together. So thank you.
Saeed Jones 36:09
And that's why I did it. Trust the process.
Traci Thomas 36:13
So we're gonna read a poem that you picked called, What Do Women Want by Kim Addonizio. And it's from the collection tell me and I'm gonna read it, and then we're going to talk about it. Here we go.
Saeed Jones 36:22
I am so excited.
Traci Thomas 36:24
I want a red dress. I want it flimsy and cheap. I want it too tight. I want to wear it until someone tears it off me. I want it sleeveless and backless the stress so no one has to guess what's underneath. I want to walk down the street past 350s And the hardware store with all those keys glittering in the window. past Mr. And Mrs. Wong selling day old doughnuts and their cafe, past the Guerrera brothers slinging pigs from their truck and onto the dolly, hoisting the slick snouts over their shoulders. I want to walk like I'm the only woman on earth, and I can have my pick. I want that red dress bad. I want it to confirm your worst fears about me to show you how little I care about you, or anything except what I want. When I find it, I'll pull that garment from its hanger like I'm choosing a body to carry me into this world through the birth cries and the love cries to and I'll wear it like bones like skin. It'll be the god damned dress they bury me in.
Saeed Jones 37:46
Traci, that was a perfect reading.
Traci Thomas 37:48
Thank you. Okay, I got this poem.
Saeed Jones 37:55
You got this poem? Which is kind of the point. Imagine, imagine a woman writing a poem about what she wants. And then everyone's like, I don't get it.
Traci Thomas 38:06
Yeah, it's just I mean, What I like about this poem is how specific it is, and how detailed it is both in like the feeling of it, right like that, like sort of revenge II but also like revenge but not directed at unnecessarily anyone but that feeling of like, I'm a bad bitch. And I want people to know, but also just like Mr. And Mrs. Wong, like, the pig's snout. So I love that. And then the other thing I love, which I feel like is what I love about a lot of palms, is how it sounds coming out of the mouth. There's like sections that have so many S's, it's like slippery.
Saeed Jones 38:45
I wanted to point that out sleeveless and backless this dress, so no one has to guess. It's almost like you're slipping the dress on.
Traci Thomas 38:53
Yes. And it's like some poems I really liked because they're vowel centric. And they're like, long. And I talked about, like, I love the word now in a poem. But I also really liked the fun you can have when the consonants really get going. Like there's the line that ends on pick, have my pick? Oh, yes, very satisfying. So that's how those are my initial thoughts about this poem. I love that I would love to know what why you wanted to do this poem, and what you get from it or why you love it.
Saeed Jones 39:24
Yeah, I wanted to do this poem, one because, you know, when people ask, as you, you know, as you're doing kind of with this project, you know, what are poets or poetry collections I can read that will help me build my confidence in this space. Tell me this collection is an excellent example. It was a finalist for the National Book Award in 2000. So I came across it when I was a college student. So this is probably 2005 2006. A boyfriend actually got this for me as a gift was one of the best gifts. And so I say that in that I came across this poem when I was An early poetry student, okay. When I mean because I was an undergraduate student, this was, you know, those years were the first years in my life where I was living as an out gay man, which is to say, the first years of my life with no secrecy, no conversion, you know, no, needing to be, you know, subversive, I was getting to experience what it meant to desire in public, to want to be looked at, in a desirous way to want to look at other people to learn what that feels like. I mean, this is a little tangent, but I had a professor and this is, you know, we can talk about the problematic aspects of this later. But a male professor visited me where I was working in the English tutor Center at one point, and he stepped in and said, something he needed and then he stepped out and then he just did step, just head back in and I had long dreads at the time, just leaned his head back down, he said, your hair is so fucking sexy. Oh, and step out there. And I was like, up and I just turned right back to Kim. She's like, see, she gets it!
Traci Thomas 40:59
You're like lemme get that red, that red dreads dress.
Saeed Jones 41:03
You know, it just aligned with both as a student. And you're right. Like, I like how the poem feels. It feels sexy to read. It just does it does it. It's a pleasure to read. It's empowering to read. I love the language. She just says, I want that dress bad or something where I'm getting Lucille Clifton, Sylvia Plath, and Sexton even Angela Carter with like the bloody Bloody Chamber. But also I could turn to any of my girlfriends I could turn to any my aunties. And they would get this they get with this poem. And so I love that it felt like, technically it was working, you know, in the highfalutin ways that I was beginning to aspire to. But it's also this poem, you know, the snouts, the day old donut, it's very much of this world. So that's what brought me into it.
Traci Thomas 41:56
Can you talk about the technical stuff? Can you talk about, like how a poem works or why a poem works?
Saeed Jones 42:03
Yeah, sure. I mean, I think you know, one thing I did a little digging, and I want to say the quote, what do women want? It's from Freud. I had to look it up. And so he actually said, I mean, this is just like astoundingly, misogynist, because, of course, he said, The Great question that has never been answered, and which I have not yet been able to answer, despite my 30 years of research into the feminine soul is, what does a woman want. And in interview she did in 2022, for the Poetry Foundation, and combat Tunisia said this just came from an exercise. She was working with her students, and she was like, Yeah, I'll do it. I'll do it. I do this too. And she was just, like, just right, I want I want I want and see what comes of it. So you know, that's, that's kind of like, like, an interesting set. Like, you don't need to know all of that. But I still built in. I would say, technically, in terms of structure, I would say it's built like a dress in a way I divide and you can look, I know, I texted you my little notes. But I divide the poem into kind of basically three sections. Okay. At the top, you know, I want to dress all the way to so no one has to guess what's underneath. We're getting that tactile description of like, we can picture this dress. It's basically a red sheath. A very like very Courtney Love early 2000s. Dress, right? Yeah, see, this woman's definitely wearing boots with this drop.
Traci Thomas 43:29
Shadow, but same time maybe maybe.
Saeed Jones 43:32
Kim Addonizio has a grunginess to her. I love. So we get the dress, then she takes us and the dress out into her world. And I love that it's not just the world. It's and she said in this interview, right? This was her neighborhood. This is where she was living in San Francisco. And she was like, I love the Guerrero brothers food and, and those those damn doughnuts. And so we actually get, you know, the sense of grounding, right? Because women are people people are not abstract people belong to place. Right? And I think that's, and then she, she takes us out. And then I say we go from kind of out in the world. And then the last section of the poem, which is the longest, which I would say I think it begins with, I want to walk like I'm the only woman on earth. Right? That's existential, now we're moving to the realm of ideas to and then literally ends with death. So in a way, I love how this poem, it's very simple. You know, it's easy to read. You do not have to overthink it. Yeah. But if you kind of zero in it's built like a dress like you have like the more constructed part of the top of the shoulders, you put it on and don't you want to dress like this to just kind of flow towards the bottom.
Traci Thomas 44:43
Yeah, I love that. How do you I always ask poets this, how do you think about punctuation and line endings?
Saeed Jones 44:51
Ooh, um, it's, it's odd because I think as a student, I was much more rigorous. And now when just know it when I see it. It's a lot of playing around, I think with this poem, you know, the periods are are pretty significant like like the line you singled out because I want to walk like the I'm the only woman on earth and I can have my pic period. Yeah, you know, or another line that I said I love I want that red dress bad right here it like she's definitely using punctuation to kind of kind of stop. Yeah, stop the moment but otherwise with this poem, I think I do like it to flow and because the poem is, you know, like your worst fears about me and my love cries and the birth cries and because really what she's also doing and this is true throughout the book, which I want to talk about a little bit too, so much of why I love this collection tell me is she uses that like smoothness and you're like going with the flow. You're vibing and you don't realize like you're headed for a car crash. Like she drives you. Right? You know, because it's pretty startling. It'll be the goddamn dress. They bury me and there's a fatalism, you know, like, I think you're kind of moving through and then you're like, This is almost at the beginning, like the tone of a pop song. Yes. Right. Yeah, it's very easy, very accessible, you could hear this on a radio we probably have. But by the end, we're in a very different space. You know, it's almost like she's walked past the Guerrero brothers and kept walking in now we're in a dark, kind of scary district. And I think that's interesting.
Traci Thomas 46:34
I think that's also what I respond to in this poem is I really liked when poem sort of have like that twist at the end or like, not necessary doesn't have to be a couplet, but like that, there's some sort of like, we're going, we're going, we're going and then it's like, document. You thought I was talking about a dress. I'm talking about my funeral.
Saeed Jones 46:53
Like, right, like so. So sonnets actually have this like it's part of the formal structure, the Voltaire. So it's supposed to have a turn. But yeah, I agree. I mean, you see this in any poem from me, very simply, we need to end in a different place than we start. Yeah. Unless, unless the point of the poem is for some reason to kind of take us back for some kind of cyclical reason, right? Yeah, I want us to be startled, I want us to end up somewhere we could not have foreseen.
Traci Thomas 47:21
That's interesting, before you go. Repeat for people who like, oh, they just heard who are other poets, or what are other poems that you can think of that sort of like have a similar vibe, or even just like a similar accessibility or something that that feels in conversation with Kim Addonizio.
Saeed Jones 47:40
Honestly, my my first thought is with this poem, in particular, as always, homage to my hips by Lucille Clifton, I was 10 minutes ago reading and you know, it's one of her famous poems you can get in her selected or collected words. And she's wonderful. She's, you know, a black titan of literature. And it's fun to read like a black woman praising her hips. And her last line is like, these hips have been known to spin a man like, Tom. I know you love. Yeah, I like it. And you know what I'm always trying to mention, it's like, who? Who would laugh? You know, who would? Who would? Who would kind of get a sense of kick out of this poem? So yeah, and then I think, yeah, I certainly think of Anne Sexton in general, because Anne Sexton was doing a lot of early, you know, kind of mid 20th century feminist work in terms of saying mothers are sexual beings as well. We think about death and darkness too, you know, and in a very similar space that I think Kim Addonizio is drawing from.
Traci Thomas 48:40
I love it. Okay, everybody, if you haven't yet, which Like honestly, if you're listening to right now, and you've never read any of Saeed's work, like I think we're in a fight. But Saeed has three books. He's got his first poetry collection prelude to bruise. He's got his second poetry collection alive at the end of the world. And he has his memoir, how we fight for our lives. I said the wrong word at first.
Saeed Jones 49:05
You were like, Why We Fight for our lives, like, what's the point, even?
Traci Thomas 49:12
And he'd had a big news earlier this year that there's another book coming, so I can't wait for that. You'll be back obviously, to discuss it. But um, thank you for doing this. Thank you so much.
Saeed Jones 49:24
I know I bully you and I will continue to believe because I know you can take it, but really, I'm proud of you. I mean, I just think poetry. It has so many gifts it can bestow upon Yeah. And so I just I want people to welcome those gifts into their lives. So thank you for like, you know, taking this time.
Traci Thomas 49:43
Nate Marshall is an award winning writer, editor, educator and emcee from the south side of Chicago. He is the author of the poetry collections in blood percussion and wild hundreds. He also co wrote the play no blue memories with Eve Ewing. Then I was recognized as one of the Best Books of 2020 by NPR and wild hundreds was given the Black Caucus of the American Library Association's award for poetry of the year. Alright everybody, friend of the pod Nate Marshall. Welcome back.
Nate Marshall 50:11
Hey, what's up?
Traci Thomas 50:12
So glad to have you. We're doing poetry again with you. You got a second second poetry chance. You picked Evolution of my Block by Jacob Saenz. And so I'm going to read it to you, and then we'll talk about it. Here we go, everybody. As a boy, I bicycled the block with a brown mop top falling into a tail bleached blond gold like under golden light like colors of noble knights banging on corners unconcerned with the colors I bore a shorty to small to war with to brown to be down for the block. White Knights became brown kings still showing black and gold on corners now crowned the block a branch branded with la corona graffitied on garage doors by the ponds. As a teen I could have been the crown walked in without the beat down custom ward with my cousin who claimed to sixth the set on the next block, decked in black and beige, but I prefer games to gangs, books to crooks wearing hats, cricket to the left or right fighting for a plot of block to spot and mark with blood of boys who knew no better way to grow up than throw up the crown and be down for whatever. How did I do a great salad so hard. Okay, here's my takeaway from this poem. The title is sort of a spoiler alert, I sort of knew where this was going from the title, which was helpful, I love I love being told where I'm going. So I knew this was gonna be about the evolution of his life, and his relationship sort of to where he grew up. And I feel like he did do that in this poem. What I like is the like, internal rhyme scheme thing going on, like mop top, and the golden light, like colors of noble knights and all of those little things. I also love. This is very you like very consonant II poems, if I remember correctly in this, which I also really liked that but I remember that from topple gangbanger being like, there's so much going on. Yeah. And, yeah, he grows up, and the block changes. And by the time he's like, older, you know, his cousins are repping different sets, like they're not even fucking with the original black and gold. Now, it's a black and beige moment. And he always sort of was maybe on the outside because he liked playing games and wearing and reading books, and was just not really that into it like the other kids. How did I do?
Nate Marshall 50:15
Yeah, you did pretty well. You did pretty well. So like, so there's another element to this poem. Just in terms of the narrative.
Traci Thomas 52:44
Yeah, do it. This is what I need.
Nate Marshall 52:46
Right. So Jacob is from a town called Cicero, Illinois. And Cicero is just west of Chicago. It's like a sort of immediate western suburb. And Cicero historically, was a sort of white ethnic community, very hostile to, to outside, try, specifically black folks, right? So famously, right, in the 60s, when Martin Luther King in the Freedom Movement comes to Chicago. And they're advocating for like housing integration, and they want to march in Cicero. And it's too dangerous. Like, they're like, Yeah, we can't guarantee your safety. Right. Another sort of famous story, I think, the first black family that moved into Cicero, like people just like, broke into the apartment and like, threw all their shit out the windows. And so he's from Cisco, right? And so there is this part of that the evolution that he is kind of talking about, is this thing that happens in like the 80s, and the 90s and Cicero, where it goes from being a very sort of historically like white, white ethnic, like, it's just rural has like a long history of like, mob ties. So like, Capone ran, like many speakeasies and all this kind of stuff from Cicero.
Traci Thomas 54:00
As you do.
Nate Marshall 54:02
So you see, so that is also there, right? So that's why we get this emphasis on color because yes, it's talking about the gangs and stuff, but it's also talking about like a shift in the kind of ethnic makeup of this community that he is a part of, and the he observes right? So like in the third stanza with the colors I bought a shorty to small to war with to brown to be down for the block. And so that's like the speaker being like this little brown kid in this block that is majority white and so like he kind of is I you know, like left out because of that, but also maybe his his like relative youth also insulates him somewhat from you know, from like being a target, right? In this way.
Traci Thomas 54:49
Same with like the white knights become brown kings.
Nate Marshall 54:52
Exactly. Right. So we go from white knights, which is a sort of historic, like white ethnic gang to Kim's Latin King He's right, still showing black and gold. So they still have these colors in common. Right. So, so that is also the right yes, you have the kind of coming of age of this individual character, but you also have a sort of broader coming of age of community at home, like writ large.
Traci Thomas 55:15
Yeah. So okay, that's a question. I have a lot about poetry, which is like, I didn't do so I for every poem we're doing on this episode, I read it twice before I got on with the poet and then I read it once out loud with you. So I'm trying not to, like do too much research. But what what about poems like this, where it's like, it would be helpful to know this about this guy? Because that would change. Like, do you as a reader of poems? Do you do like research on each poem? Or like each person? How much do you like, obviously, you know this because that you're a Chicago guy, but like, I mean, there's no Cicero is not in here at all. And neither is Chicago or even like any and you know, anything like that. So I'm wondering, like, how much research type stuff you do before you read a poem?
Nate Marshall 55:59
I'm not necessarily a lot, right? I do think that there are, there's a thing I think it's like from like, the Bible, or like the Hebrew Bible or something. This thing called like a Shibboleth, right. Shibboleth is like a tell. Right? So Shibboleth is like, if you say something that I know something about, right. So this could be like a secret code through which, like a follower of a particular religion can signal to other followers were down, even if but other but it will escape the sight of other people. So in this, this poem contains a lot of shibboleths, right? Kings noble knights to six, these are all things that if you like, are from a Chicago and for probably from like a particular kind of Chicago, right? You're like, okay, absolutely. I know, I know, the sort of landscape of this poem. But obviously, right, if you don't have that, right, not necessarily going to be obvious to you. The way I like to think about poems is I think, I think a good poem works in layers. Sure. There are many ways in in many ways to enjoy the poem that aren't knowing every single specific detail that is germane to the poem, knowing the author's entire biography, etc. Right? Yeah. But with each layer, you do uncover new things reveal themselves, right. But like, one of the things I love about this poem is like, it just sounds so good, right? And I think yeah, especially like this poem was first published in 2010. Which is kind of a long time ago, which makes me feel horrible, frankly. It's like, Damn, you're 15 years ago. Yeah, we're not used. But um, one of the things about contemporary poetry in like the late 2000s into the early 2010s, is that there wasn't a lot of like, rhyme. There wasn't a lot of people writing and kind of, sort of sonically pleasing, aesthetically pleasing verse. There were some folks but but just not a ton, right? It was, it was very, yeah, that's just like a thing about contemporary poets. We've talked about the kind of verse Yeah. And so I just love that this poem sounds so cool, right? So even if you don't know anything, right, there is all this like, internal rhyme. And all this stuff that just like sits into your mouth and a really lovely way gold, like under golden lights, like colors of noble knights. I'm like, damn, this just sounds like a rhyme to me. Like, it's like, yeah, yeah, like he could be an MC. To me saying that and I first off was like, really attracted to that.
Traci Thomas 58:33
So okay, let me ask you this. Let me tell you this about me. So you and I talked about verse I always talked about verse and not just verse, but like line endings, punctuation, all of that with poems, and reading this poem, I did not do any of the things that I normally do, or as much of the things that I normally do, I didn't really honor the line endings, I didn't really honor the stanzas because it felt like with the way that the rhyme flowed, if you do that, you sort of fuck up the like, what you're talking about the internal rhyme scheme, and like the salt, like the sonic elements of this poem, so I'm wondering if you have a sense of as to why he would write a poem that sounds really good with a certain like, cadence and rhythm, but then write it in a way that doesn't really honor that.
Nate Marshall 59:18
Right? So then put it in these like three lines-
Traci Thomas 59:21
These three line chunks, but have it like because a line ending to me is like some some you have to make a choice there, but a stanza really feels like we're changing something. And there's so many and so I'm just wondering, like, why would you do that to me?
Nate Marshall 59:37
Yeah, that's a good question. Um, obviously, we can't fully know I mean, I guess we could, but a thing that a teacher told me like my my middle school English teacher, when I first started doing kind of like poetry slam or performance poetry stuff. She said this thing to me that I've always sort of remembered, which is like, if it rhymes, Iran, you don't have to make it run. I think when it was like a Good performance note versus like leaning into the kind of rain. But I also think like, Yeah, I think so like this poem sometimes has that like, in rhyme thing, right? Or sometimes, but not always. Right. Like, I think part of the function. Like if I look at the poem on the page, right, the stanzas they're the same length. They're all pretty these pretty small tight lines. And there's something like visually, yeah, about it ordered about it, right, which, almost for me, like, I don't again, I don't not knowing if this is the intention of the poem, but, or the poet, but like, that makes me think about a city block, right, specifically, like in Chicago. And this extends often out into the suburbs. Like I think this extends out into Cicero. Chicago is like a very gridded city in a way that is less true of other parts of the country. Just because it's like us infrastructure have it's not as old as rice coast, etc, etc, right? So it's, like, incredibly ordered, in a particular way. And so this poem feels to me like it mirrors that. When I'm when I'm like teaching, right, or when I'm trying to teach students how to like think through poems or talk through poems, often we'll start with like, what can we notice? without necessarily needing to, like, attach, meaning to write? I have beef with many things, and many people, Thomas Jefferson is one. Well, one of the other ones is the way I think, historically that poetry has been taught. Yeah, over the last several decades in sort of K 12 education, because I think we've kind of used poems as like non mathematical word problems. And it's made people really fearful of poetry in a way that's just like, unnecessary.
Traci Thomas 1:01:53
And people like this poem by Jacob sands evolution of my block. What else do you recommend what other poets are sort of doing similar things are writing in similar styles or have a similar vibe?
Nate Marshall 1:02:03
Hmm, sure. Um, a couple. I mean, I think Dwayne Betts, maybe because they kind of emerged around the same time, but always think of them as sort of in conversation. Eric L. Sanchez. They're oddly from like the same little kind of small town that became sort of very, very Mexican. I would say the two of them Jose Olivarez. Oh, what'sn his name, Joseph Rios.
Traci Thomas 1:02:31
Yeah. All right. Great. Well, everybody. You guys all know Nate because he was on the show. But maybe you're new to the stack. So you don't know that Nate was on the show. We did doppelganger doppelganger banger and Nate wrote a poem poetry collection called Finna and another one called Wild Hundreds and Nate is the best and thanks for viewing.
Nate Marshall 1:02:50
Thank you. Good to see you, Traci.
Traci Thomas 1:02:52
You too always. Gabrielle Bates is an author, poet podcaster and visual artists originally from Birmingham, Alabama, her 2023 poetry collection. Judas goat is a New York Times Book Review shortlist pic and an NPR Best Book of 2023. The southern Review of Books said of Gabrielle's work that while it is full of violence and suffering among both animals and humans, there is so much tenderness. All right, everybody, I've got another poet for you. I'm joined today by Gabrielle beats. She wrote the poetry collection Judas the Goat.
Gabrielle Bates 1:03:25
Thanks so much for having me. I am so excited.
Traci Thomas 1:03:29
Thank you for coming to poetry therapy.
Gabrielle Bates 1:03:32
I'm so proud of you for diving into the uncomfortable waters of poetry. I know it's not your favorite thing in the world, or the thing that you feel most comfortable about. But I love that you're pushing in that direction.
Traci Thomas 1:03:46
Oh, thank you. Well, I have to say getting to talk with like real fancy, amazing poets about one poem at a time has actually been sort of a dream. Okay, so I'm going to read the poem you picked. It's called I've Been Thinking about Love Again by Vievee Francis, and then we'll talk about it. So here we go. I've been thinking about love again, those who live to have it and those who live to give it. Of course, there are those for whom both are true, but never in the same measure. Those who have it to give are like Cardinals in the snow, so easy and beautifully lit. Some are rabbits hard to see, except for those who would prey upon them. All that softness and quaking and blood. Those who want it cannot be satisfied, eagle eyed and such talents. Any furred thing will do. So easy to rip out a heart when it is throbbing so hard. I wander out into the winter. I know what I am. Okay, that's the poem. Let me tell you what pops out to me, the colon after them where it says hard to see except for those who would prey upon them. Colon. It's the only colon in the poll. I'm, which I thought was interesting. I think generally, this is a poem about love, and about how we relate to one another. And some people are rabbits. And some people are eagles. That was sort of my big takeaway. But that colon, I don't know what it means. I don't know how it works. But it really popped out at me. And then the other thing is, she uses the word. So a lot of times, which is interesting, and I think maybe like, there, if I read it better, maybe like the SOS would pop out more, but like there's something about that. So those are all the sort of like general things I have. Now you tell me why you liked this poem? Why you pick this poem, what you think this poem means?
Gabrielle Bates 1:05:42
I love this so much. You read it gorgeously. And I'm obsessed with the fact that you've zeroed in on this colon because as a fan of your podcast, I know you don't consider yourself a super close reader. But that's like the closest reader thing you could possibly focus on. So you're changing as a reader.
Traci Thomas 1:06:01
I feel like I'm changing. I'm a close reader for poems.
Gabrielle Bates 1:06:05
Exactly. And I do think, you know, poetry invites us to be closer readers, even those of us who don't turn that way naturally. Okay, so why did I choose this incredible poem? First of all, vibey Francis is just an icon. And she's a poet who is hugely important to me and to my book, Judas goat, so it always feels good to shine a light on her work. I think as many fans as she has, she could always have more, she remains underrated. I was originally going to bring in another poem of hers. But then something about this title just swam up to me when I was trying to think of a poem I might want to bring in. And I don't know if it's because it's springtime. And so the phrase I've been thinking about love, again, just swam up into my consciousness. And I remembered this poem. It's not a poem I've ever taught before. It's not a poem I've ever been in conversation with anyone about so I thought it would be a true sight of inquiry for both of us to chat about it today. It's also a friendly sighs You know, it's not a sonnet but almost gestures towards a sonnet. It's 16 lines rather than 14. Something about that final couplet, I wander out in the winter, I know what I am, it gives me shivers every time. It's so powerful, and yet also so mysterious, right? I think, when you were talking about what struck you about the poem, I was hearing a bit of one of the main things I love about this poem, which is the central tension between clarity and mystery. The images we have here are so vivid and clear, right? Cardinals in the snow, bam, like she's given us all, we need to see that so clearly the bright red right in the white, but then there's almost this withholding of the information at the end, when the speaker comes in for the first time. I believe in the whole poem, we get that I since the beginning, since that first line is the title. Yes. Which runs into the poem. Exactly. And so the speaker knows what sort of animal she is, but we don't get to know and so there's this central tension and contrast between the power of that knowledge, the courage of going out into the winter, knowing who or what you are, but then the reader is left wondering, you know, like, is she a Cardinal? Is she a rabbit is she may be something more like the eagle eyed and talent creature, I tend to think she's aligned more with the prey animals, something about the verb wandering feels a little more rabid or Cardinal rather than, you know, like, don't you think an eagle would sort of be like, Well, yeah, into the winter or doing a different kind of,
Traci Thomas 1:09:00
she sort of is like, she's like, sort of judgy of the eagle. Like any furred thing will do that sort of feels like a little like eagles or shit. Do you know what I mean? Like, it doesn't feel like an eagle strong looking hunting. Right? It's like, anything we'll do they'll eat anything like yeah, a little flip about the Eagles. So easy. Yeah, I love that you're talking about like, sort of the mystery but also the clarity, clarity, because this poem does feel really clear. Like on the first read, I felt like I understand the title. I know where we're going, we're talking about love, and she sets it up. I know a rabbit I know a cardinal I know Neil even though I'm not a nature girly. So like, those are very obvious nature things for me. You know, sometimes we get into the plants and I'm like, I don't know what a like chamomile is versus a dandelion or whatever. But this is like, you know, yes. And I do love the mystery at the end. I know what I am. And I love that there's like He's like not I mean, not to be too much of an actor. But like when I saw that line, I'm like, there's so many ways you could read, I know what I could know, you could know what you are. Or you could know what you are like. It's like, there's so many it's like such an accurate thing to be like, Oh, no, but it really changes. To me what that last line says, which is really-.
Gabrielle Bates 1:10:25
It's expansive In its tonal possibilities, right, which I think connects back for me to earlier in the poem. Of course, there are those for whom both are true, but never in the same measure, there's that sort of slippery, the way that power dynamics are often changing. And it's not always the same, we're not always going to know what we are with the same tonal register, we might sound kind of sad about that knowledge, it might be very, you know, confident and striding out into the snow. And so I love that's what great poems do, they make room for that kind of multiplicity. And I think that's why we can return throughout our lives to a column like this. And it can mean something a little different to us every time. I love how you also pointed out the repetition of so in this poem, and in particular, the phrase so easy, repeat a couple times. So easy, so easy, in a way that almost invites me to think about the opposite, because this is a poem that's so interested in tension and contrast. So like, difficulty of love. I mean, we're talking about really kind of violent, scary things here. Right?
Traci Thomas 1:11:39
Well, she gives us so easy, so easy, and then so hard.
Gabrielle Bates 1:11:42
Yeah. And hard to see. Yeah.
Traci Thomas 1:11:46
Yeah, I mean, I do I love it's very like, this is the kind of poem I I actually really like, because it does feel Shakespearean in a lot of ways. Like the measure, even though it's not like, you know, iambic or whatever, like, it feels clear where the lines are going. Like, all of that feels very, it makes a lot of sense when you read it. Like, I don't feel stuck on a lot of punctuation except for my friend, the colon, what's the colon about? Why does that one get a colon?
Gabrielle Bates 1:12:15
Totally sure. I think, you know, this poem is structurally, the kind of poem that seems like it's trying to be kind to the reader, as you sort of mentioned, like, each kind of sentence stanza is given to us as this in stopped unit. It's like, the poet is wanting you to be able to digest each idea as its presented before you move on to the next one. And then the stanza in the middle is the biggest stanza. It's the one that has the most in JAM then across these lines. And so maybe it just felt like time for a little interruption with that colon.
Traci Thomas 1:12:58
People who love Vievee Francis, what other poems are as poetry poets, would you recommend that sort of maybe in conversation with how Vievee writes-
Gabrielle Bates 1:13:08
Yeah, I think Vievee Francis, as a poet who will activate your courage, through her own courage on the page, her willingness to interrogate kind of emotionally and relationally difficult terrain, and so that makes me think that poets or readers of poetry might enjoy the work of someone like Sharon olds, Ellen Barry bass, Aida Limone. I have to shout out this book by a debut collection by Sarah huzzle. I'll Lee it's called theophanies. I think there's some kindred nests there that might not be as expected, but I do think poets who love this poem will also love that book. It's also just an extraordinary collection.
Traci Thomas 1:14:00
Well, Gabrielle, this was so much fun. Thank you so much for doing this with me. It's such an honor and such a treat and I just Yay, thank you.
Gabrielle Bates 1:14:08
It's such a joy. Thank you so much for having me.
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