Unabridged: No One Wants to Talk About the Sex with Kiley Reid - Transcript
This episode features audio from a February live show at Vroman’s Bookstore with NYT bestselling novelist Kiley Reid (Such a Fun Age, Come and Get It). Kiley talks about her approach to character development and satire; she also reveals what she hopes her audiences take away from her work, and why she primarily cares about being entertaining.
TRANSCRIPT
Traci Thomas 0:00
Hello everybody, it is Traci Thomas here, host of The Stacks and I am back with you to do another episode of The Stacks Unabridged, which is our Patreon-exclusive monthly bonus episode. This month I am sharing with you a live recording of an event I just did with Kylie Reid, the author of the brand new New York Times bestseller Come and Get It, as well as her debut book Such a Fun Age. Kylie and I got together thanks to the folks at Vroman's Bookstore. We talked about Come and Get It and you're gonna get to hear that. I do have to let you know one thing. Because this was a live recording, the audience mics did not pick up the audience questions. So in the back half of our conversation, you're going to hear me come in on this mic and kind of paraphrase what the question was, so you can hear Kylie's brilliant answers. This is called the pains and wonders of technology. Alright, enough of me talking. Let's get into this conversation. I'm going to take you in to the All Saints Church in Pasadena, California, where I sat down with Kylie Reid. She kicked off the evening with a reading from the book, and I'm going to drop you in at the very end of that to dive into our conversation. So I hope you enjoy.
Kiley Reid 1:07
"...'Lift your shoulders,' like fucking duh, and I said something about it. And she was like, 'What? Why would you say that?' And I was like, 'Whoa, my bad, but I'm gay. So chill out.' But yeah, when I saw her name on the dorm list, I was like, Wow, I'm gonna go to jail this year. But then I asked Amy, who I was paired with, and I was like, Okay, fine, she seems normal. At this Millie experienced what she knew was a surplus of flattery, and what felt like an adolescent intrigue at learning that Colette was gay. In order to not draw attention to Colette's gayness, something she hadn't considered one way or the other. Millie picked up another sheet of cards. Stop there.
Traci Thomas 1:56
Okay, theater major. Kylie was a theater major. The book is fantastic. It is about Millie, who is an RA, second-year senior. It's a dorm drama. She's got a cast of characters on her floor, one of which is a gal named Kennedy, who is a transfer. There's something going on with Kennedy. That's what you need to know about Kennedy. It's not great. There's a journalist who comes to town, and she wants to write about weddings. And so she's interviewing the students. And that's sort of the overview of the book. Now we'll get to the fun stuff. This is a book all about status, and who is in control and who isn't. And I think when I was reading the book, I was thinking a lot about like, what is Kiley trying to tell me about these people? And what's important. And I think, you know, I've read a bunch of the reviews, it talks a lot about class, talks a lot about money, it talks a lot about race, it talks a lot about power. But to me, it's all about who's jockeying for which position, at which moment, and it's like, never the richest person is the most powerful, or it's never the most powerful person has the most, you know, friends or the Blackest person or you know, it's never that. So I'm wondering how you were thinking about who's on top and how that changes and how that rotates?
Kiley Reid 3:14
I think it just depends on on the scene. Honestly, this whole this whole book started when I read the book meet your nonfiction girlie. Maybe read too, I read this book called paying for the party of college maintains inequality written by two sociologists, Laura Hamilton and Elizabeth Armstrong, one of whom works at my school as well. It's a book, it's a five year interview study that these two sociologists did, where they went to a Midwestern University, and lived on a dorm and interviewed young women from freshman year to beyond and marked their financial pathways, what they call them, and track like, who college works for, and what like the party lifestyle, the like, you know, the the legacy lifestyle, the scholarship. And the book is really fascinating for a number of like reasons dealing with like equality in our world. But I was just obsessed with the world that this was in and these academic women like interviewing these young women, and I'm really inspired by real dialogue, want my dialogue to sound real, and the quotes from these real women were just really heartbreaking in certain moments. Like there would be young women saying, All the girls on my floor have a puffy coat, I want a puffy coat. And there's just something so tender about that. And I wanted to tap into that, or some of the young women would say, Hey, you guys haven't come and talk to me yet? Why is no one come and talk to me? And there was just this pole of like, you know, when you're 11, and you hear the word professor, and you're like, Ooh, well, you're like important. I wanted to see what that looked like in a campus settings. So I felt like a dorm is like a really hot house to show those power dynamics. And you're right. There's a very mean and popular young woman named Tyler there. And she is probably one of the few working class characters but she has such cultural cachet that that really carries her really far. And then there's someone like Payton who's the only black student who's on her floor aside from Millie and she has a lot out of money, but she's very awkward and not warm and kind of coddled by her parents. And the power is is divvied up in different ways with her as well. I just like taking a bunch of people and putting them in a room and be like, how can this get locked up? And see how that can happen within a dorm?
Traci Thomas 5:15
Yeah. And you did a bunch of interviews for this book. And as a nonfiction lover, I'm curious, did you ever just want to write a nonfiction book? Like, did you ever think this is so juicy as is like, Can I turn this into something else?
Kiley Reid 5:29
I feel like whenever I have to write nonfiction, I end up in tears, like, truly but I did after one of the first interviews that I did when I was still at school, I knew I wanted to write about young people, and money. And so I started interviewing some of my students when they weren't my students anymore. I interviewed the Starbucks worker who I went to see because I wanted to Starbucks worker, and I just wanted to ask them about money. And the very first people that I interviewed, I did write for the foreword to The Great Gatsby when I went into the public domain about that session. So I think like 5000 words is as much as I can do on that. But I did take things straight from my interview sometimes and put them right into into the book. In the first chapter, there's a young woman who says, she got a practice paycheck. And that was something that I, I talked to a woman about, we were talking about, like, how do your parents give you money? Who gives you money like Cash App? Venmo? Like, what is it logistics? And she was like, Oh, my dad's a dentist. And I like a practice paycheck from him from his dentist office. I was like, but you don't work there. And she was like, No. And I was like, but it's real money. She said, Yeah. And I said, Okay, so you and your brothers get it. And it says your name and it's prom, the dentist's office. And she was like, Yeah, I was like, Girl, I'm so sorry. That is broad, right? Am I wrong? And she was like, it's totally fine. That went straight into the book straight. And so I feel like I take those moments, not nonfiction yet. I don't have that brain yet.
Traci Thomas 6:50
Okay. I'm waiting. Also, that moment in the book was the exact moment that I was like, Oh, I'm gonna like this book. Like the practice. I was like, Okay, I'm, I don't know what this is. But like, this is a place that I would like to be for the rest of my life. One of the characters Agatha in the book she does that she interviews these students in, she interviews them directly and in other ways. What did you learn about Agatha? In the process of you interviewing people?
Kiley Reid 7:17
I definitely learned that, like, people ask me all the time, how do you get people to talk to you about money? Easily, people just like talking about themselves. I think a lot of us are lonely and want to feel important. And when someone comes in and says, like, Hey, you're actually really interesting. And I want to know you what you think people are very excited to share. A lot of people I talk to you wanted me to know how much they knew it was inappropriate and ghost talk about money, but they still love doing it. And I thought that was interesting. I think I learned that a lot of the parts that were interesting to me were in between the questions, and like, the verbal asides, and the little like idiosyncrasies that we don't know, we have a little bit or, or even someone correcting themselves. I interviewed a young woman, she was white, and she was in a sorority, and I was asking her about recruitment process that she did. And then I was asking her about the two black fraternities and sororities like on campus, and I said, Okay, so in recruitment, did the black sororities like to participate in the same way? And she was like, oh, no, like the just the normal ones do. And she, like, caught herself. And I have to be cool in that moment.
Traci Thomas 8:23
And like, oh, I don't see color.
Kiley Reid 8:27
But she was like, No, I mean, that, that they're not normal that, and I want to honor her in that moment, and capture, like, how she corrects herself and put that into my fiction, like, that's just as important.
Traci Thomas 8:39
And how do you do that?
Kiley Reid 8:42
It takes so much time, I truly believe that the books that I want to read have a generous and democratic approach to their characters. And a lot of reviews are saying, Oh, this satire, that is not my intention here. I think it's like a lazy choice to be like, look at these dumb kids. I don't think the kids are dumb. This was just showing people inside of their rooms, thinking things that people think so it was a big balance of showing the way students talk. And also making it not grading for an audience and your podcast. So you've probably transcribed things. We talked terribly, and we say like, oh my God all the time.
Traci Thomas 9:19
So you should read my reviews. People don't like Like, they also don't like vocal fry.
Kiley Reid 9:25
Yeah. A lot of people don't like it. But a lot of people do it. And the fiction I want to read shows just real life on the page.
Traci Thomas 9:32
Okay, you sort of cued me up for this one, because I'm really curious to, I've listened to you talk about your books, I've read reviews, you know, tried to really get into your head a little bit. And one of the things I can't quite figure out is that you say the books not satire. And I've also heard you talk about like, you know, you won't tell people what happens to the characters in the future because that's not your business that's theirs, their business and so I'm curious how much you care if someone reads your book. Look and says that this is satire, how important is your intention to the readers understanding and let her how important is that to you that like we get it right.
Kiley Reid 10:10
I think I care what this book in particular I care. And as far as the people I'm interviewing, thinking that I'm not making fun of them that's like barrier. If someone's like, Oh, I loved it was a Saturday, I'm like, that's fine, go off. Like, that's what I wanted. But that's fine. The people that I interviewed, I wanted to respect them and their lives. I think a lot of people will hear a southern accent and be like, that's funny. And just like people talk certain ways, I don't think that that's funny. on its own. I don't believe that a novel should have like one core message or thesis. But I do believe something happens in the first chapter that hopefully sets people up. Millie, the main character says she overhears girls calling her ghetto. And she's like, I know exactly what they're talking about. I was getting something for her. And I said, Oh, this isn't the right one. And she was like, Oh, ha, you're saying, Oh, this ain't the right one. And she's like, that's not how I said it. And then she says, You know what people hear what they want to hear. And I think that that's a central point to this book. And I think a lot of people will see a southern accent and read it in a really magnified way. But the way that I hopefully am portraying these people is how they are in the real world. And that they know that I'm not like poking fun at those parts of them.
Traci Thomas 11:23
That makes sense. And when you you said in the past like that you don't be in your way into a novel you don't like set out to write like, I'm going to write a money book or like, I'm going to write a class book. How do you start out? Where does a book like this start? And then at what point do you start thinking about, like, what the theme is? Do you ever think about that? Do you just write it, let the characters do their thing and say that's up for y'all to figure out.
Kiley Reid 11:49
For me, I feel like every book is like a conglomerate of whatever I'm reading at that moment. So it was the paying for the party book, it was a book called knocking the hustle hard against the neoliberal turn in black politics by Lester Spence. And another book called mono culture by FS Michaels, those I was just like, these really impacting me, I'm gonna like write three characters to these books. But I think I tell my students this all the time, as soon as you get those themes in your head, just like, push them away. Try not to do that. And I have the benefit of having a really great team and an editor who said to me, write your book, don't worry about what people want to read, like, we will figure out how to package this book, I just think you have to write what you're obsessed with, you're gonna be with it for four years. And it just has to be other things you're obsessed with. And a lot of writers will be like, I'm doing this for my girls back at home. I'm like, that's cool. Some things I just think are funny. And I just like, put it in there. So some things I'm really interested in. It just depends on the page.
Traci Thomas 12:45
I love that when I was reading the book, I told you this before, and I've told friends who are here. One of the things that like really stick sticks out to me about this book is that there's some a lot of things happening with the characters, but I felt really strongly that Kylie was speaking directly to me like she was telling jokes, so that I could laugh at them, not like me, like the general reader, but like, I was like, I don't even know Kylie, but she knows this is funny to me. There's like a line in the book where one of the girls is like getting dressed and, and it's like, does she look okay, whatever. And the narrator like, explains the whole thing. And then at the end, it's like she did, in fact, look amazing. And I'm just like, that's funny. Like, that's just like so fun. I underlined it. I like text a friend about it. I was like, this is a funny moment. Because of course she did. She looks amazing. It's not a question, but I do have one about your characters. There's like 1000 characters in this book. But I also could tell you every single defining detail about each single person, and I want to know, because normally I can't normally I'm like, there's the three girls, but I'm like, No, there's Jenna Casey and Tyler. And Jen is the one with the twin thing. And then like Casey has the accent. And she's like, actually kind of smart and like I like really feel like I know these women. And it's weird because I don't even want to. But how did you keep them straight? How did you like develop them, create them make them fully realized humans? Because some of them are very much like supporting characters?
Kiley Reid 14:05
That's a great question. A lot of it. I mean, when you were like in it, these are just like the people that you know every day and it looks like that you'll spend three weeks in the room with Milly and Peyton during their mediation or whatever and making sure that you know them really well. I think that there's like surface things that you can do as a writer to make sure that your characters can stand out like I think it's great to have your main character meet a bunch of characters at the same time so your audience can and Agatha literally goes like the categorizing them. And she's like, okay, Jenna, tan Tal, Casey, Southern, blonde, Tyler mean hat. And just that little thing of like that the last one has mean on it, you're like, okay, this person is probably going to mean something different than the other two, as opposed to be like, in a dorm. There's so many people but you know a teeny bit about each of them. I try to approach the writing from the characters like we don't learn about Kennedy's past for a while because I wanted her were to remain like a weird roommate for as long as possible until we had to show her. But I also just like make tons of list of what everyone's wearing eating doing all the time.
Traci Thomas 15:10
Yeah. So things that don't ever make it in the book, you just have like lists of like, like dossiers?
Kiley Reid 15:15
Yes, I did not think that Payton's ginormous tub of Lubriderm was going to make it into the book, but it did.
Traci Thomas 15:22
Again, a joke specifically for me. Dear Traci, here's a joke. Um, you talked about like slow rolling Kennedy's character, because there's things that happen that we can't talk about read the book, but then DM me, we can talk about it. I want to know, like, how were you thinking about pacing, because when I read the book, I really felt like it was sort of like a play. There's these moments that happen these scenes that happen, but it's not all continuous. And then we get to sort of like the main action, and then that has like a totally different feel and is very continuous. And in the lead up. It's almost like interconnected, short stories.
Kiley Reid 15:59
With this one, I wanted a first chapter that connects most of the characters, if you can believe it, Kennedy was actually in the first chapter in the beginning, but then I had to cut her out for a lot of reasons. But I like the first chapter that kind of sets up the themes and teachers, your reader, like, what is this about? And for me, it was like, this is about eavesdropping. This is about talking, this is about money. And this is like saying, listen to everyone. And then from there, despite what a lot of people may think it's pretty traditional plot points. Kennedy is leaving her dishes out once again. And then maybe something happens to her when she does again. Millie wants friends, and then she wants to house and then she wants a lover, everything ramping up. I was pregnant during a lot of this. I don't know if I was working the way the contractions work as you're getting up there. But I like a pretty traditional plot and a low level of dread throughout. Yes, I do plot things out and just have them listed. And sometimes my to do list is do the roommate at mediation. And sometimes it's just like, figure out what the room looks like. I wanted this to be like, you know, something is coming the entire time. And then they have a nice little explosion at the end.
Traci Thomas 17:09
Yeah, you do know something's coming. And it's awful. It's really it's, it's a great reading experience. But also, it's an awful reading experience. You guys know exactly what I'm talking about. You're just like, can you just do it to me already just heard it's a stressful situation. And like as it keeps going, I'm just like this is it's only it's only getting worse. For me. Details. I've referred to you as one of our great maximalist writers, because in this book, you're going to get a detail. If you weren't sure about something, Kylie is going to tell you exactly specifically, what brand? What color, why.
Kiley Reid 17:46
I think that there's two things one, I'm just like super nosy and want to know, like, exactly what define someone. But I remember being in graduate school in in workshop, and a lot of people like in terms of getting to know someone, people would say things like, Okay, but what, what, what is her dad do? What college did she go to, and those things didn't really describe who that person was. To me. This is a book that's majorly about consumption. And I wanted to play with what people's belongings say about them and who they are. I think that there's there's characters, you know, who your panic a little bit and have like a nervous breakdown and go to Target because they like, can't figure out how to do it themselves. And there's characters who just really want to be an adult and buy things that like have like adult like, symbolism to them. And I wanted to describe people by showing the items that like meant something to them. I also just think that like, I could look it up, you know, I mean, I watched so many dorm tour videos on YouTube and yours and there's 1000s of them, but I just felt like there's some weird capture of human behavior here and the items that we keep near us, and I wanted to have those items play a huge role here.
Traci Thomas 18:58
I'm just gonna read a little bit of some of the details. This is describing Kennedy the weird roommates side of the room. This is one paragraph I probably won't do the whole thing. Millie note was Kennedy side of the room not just because Tyler had warned her but because of too large pillows monogram with letters K. Kennedy Space was all overwhelming embankment have recently purchased items in neutral yet feminine shades of faux sheepskin rug, white wicker baskets, a stack of velvet hangers throw blankets wrapped with matching ties. There were four boxes of string lights, an unopened box wielding a mini chandelier. There were lawless piles of leggings, jeans and sweatshirts wide neck tops meant to function off the shoulder. In the middle of the room was a wooden kitchen cart filled with coffee paraphernalia a boxed Keurig a box of Nestle half and half a mini trashcan a placard said rise and grind. The mess of newness went past Kennedy's bed and spilled onto the dorm provided desk, a porcelain unicorn for hanging jewelry, a DVD box at a friend's cork board shower caddy and empty Picture Frame. There were also a ton of statement necklaces and canvas art to be hung. The one Millie could see had petals and flowers beneath miracles. It said, bloom where you are planted. It's details, right? It's like every detail and you know exactly who Kennedy is now and you know exactly what her room looks like, and you remember her from your dorm floor? What about things as personality?
Kiley Reid 20:24
I feel like even you just reading it, like, this is what I was going for. Like if you're moving in with someone, and you see all this stuff, and you're clocking all these things, you you clock her as personality a little bit. I think that I'm not gonna go too far into this. I do think that we are a little bit lacking in culture. Sometimes I think that whenever I see like, sports teams like going really hard and you're like, I have my like, I don't have like my Eagles jersey and my Eagles bed and my eagles. I feel like like, that's fun. Sports are great. I don't hate sports.
Traci Thomas 20:57
I was gonna say we might fight over this, but I do not have a 49ers bed; I'll be transparent.
Kiley Reid 21:02
I do think we're looking to like belong to something consistently. And we're constantly trying to like buy our way into community. And so Kennedy in particular, she is having a really hard time and just fills the void with stuff. You can probably tell from this book, that that's kind of like one of my greatest fears, like stuff like like terrifies me, like, you know, any like, okay, you know, when you like go to a museum, and there's like a life size thing of a whale and you kind of get nervous, you're like, let's really big. That's kind of what stuff does to me a little bit. You can just buy as much of it as you want. No one's gonna come in and tell you like, this isn't healthy, like you don't need this. Nothing. There's nothing really terrifying to me about that. Kennedy in particular, she she was reaching out to fill her void with things and thinks that she can buy her way into friendship. And within this dorm world, I wanted to treat it like a class society and the commodity was friends. And Kennedy keeps trying and spending more money and nothing's really coming back to her.
Traci Thomas 22:01
Yeah, OhmyGod is in the book. approximately 700 times. OhmyGod, all one word. I started underlining it every time it comes up. I underlined it a lot. Talk about it.
Kiley Reid 22:16
Oh my god. Okay, I can do.
Traci Thomas 22:18
It's also Ohmygoodness. Ohmygosh, ohmylord.
Kiley Reid 22:21
I mean, I love hearing people talk the way that they talk in real world. And when I was interviewing people, there were people that I interview that every question, every single question I asked, they would say, oh my goodness, oh, my goodness, it was like the throat clearing before they could get there. I really just want to honor the way that these people are talking. They're not like in a job interview. They're not in class, they are in their rooms being themselves. And I think that we have words that give us the freedom to say other words a little bit. So I think a lot of people don't like those situations, but but I really I really like having like people talk like the way they talk in real life.
Traci Thomas 23:02
Yeah. And Millie says a lot of Yeah, no, yeah, no, this.... Yeah, no, this. I love all the vocal tics. Because as a podcaster. I clock it a lot when I'm interviewing someone. I'm like, Oh, that's interesting that they do this or they, you know, some people say my name a lot. Oh, Tracy denona. Yes. Okay, yeah, the politicians do it the most. But there are like serious academics do it a lot, too. It's very interesting. I want to talk about the book as an object in the world. Your first book was such a fun age. It was a Reese Witherspoon book club pick. It was a New York Times bestseller. It was long listed for the Booker Prize. It was huge and exciting. And you're writing this book after during that whole moment? And I want to know, like, were you thinking about what you what was possible for this book differently? We're, I think that this book has a little more of an attitude to it than the other book. It's a little brash, or it's a little more like fuck you to the world, kind of. And so I'm curious, like, how the timing of the writing, but also just how you were thinking about it?
Kiley Reid 24:05
Sure. The Great and Terrible thing about publishing is it takes so long, so I sold such a fun age between my first and second year of graduate school. And then I didn't want to waste that year, because I knew how precious it was. And so I started writing it again, it was maybe 10 months before such a fun age came out. And I just just get obsessed with whatever that you're in. And it's not that you don't like the things that you've written but you've just like so mentally, like moved on. And like as an artist, you've changed in so many ways that it just felt like okay, now I get to celebrate such a fun age. And then now I'm going to do do come and get it. It did feel like this weird thing of like, like, I got away with something. felt like such a fun age did really well and I was so happy about that. And now it was like okay, what's the book that they would never let me have done before? If I Like it felt like, you know, like, you snuck out, and your parents find out and they're like, we're going to talk about this and you're like, Okay, well, I'm already out though, so I'm just gonna, do I want to do it. That's kind of what this one felt like.
Traci Thomas 25:12
Yeah, and have you felt like the reception has been different for you?
Kiley Reid 25:17
Um, I feel like, there's such different books, that it's wonderful that some people are like, okay, when I pick up a book by this author, I'm going to get a lot of dialogue. A lot of young women, a lot of people talking about money. And that feels nice that people know that they can come to me for like, moments that are really accurate and make you feel uncomfortable and a little bit stressed like in the world world, I do think they're very different books. I think you're right. This book is a lot darker than the first and I think the set pieces and the plot does work differently. Hopefully, I'll do something different every single time. And so I hope to continue doing that.
Traci Thomas 25:54
Yeah. Okay. What about the title come and get it and I'm really most interested in the ampersand versus the word.
Kiley Reid 26:03
It was a lot of fights about the ampersand for sure. I originally for maybe two years wanted to name the book Sooey. I'm sure you guys know the Woo Pig Sooey and Arkansas and I thought that that was a great, violent, weird name that represented like everyone coming in. And every time I would say the name people couldn't get it. They would say, Shui Sooey, and my editor hated my everyone hated it. I was like, okay, so then my agent and I were texting one day, and she was like, Well, what is Sooey? It's like a pig call. It's like your pig come and get it. And there was just something electric there. I like to write about a specific place, but having people who weren't from that place coming there and like, their assessment of that place. Something I'm really interested in is like, geographic snobbery. Like Agatha thinks like, oh, fate, well, doesn't matter. Like this is fake. I can kind of do whatever I want.
Traci Thomas 26:57
You're talking to a room of Californians. We understand. Like, this is the geographic snobbery capital of the world.
Kiley Reid 27:04
So yeah, that was interesting. It was like everyone's coming to this, this new place and trying to get something very different from it. So the ampersand came at the end, I wanted a bold font on this cover, and I got it. And that's where that came from. Yeah. So it's just a font thing. It was honestly just a font.
Traci Thomas 27:18
So micro, but I do have another font question right at the start of each chapter, the font is different in the first few, like words, and then you look to it, find it, and then it goes to the main font was, did you have anything to do with that? Or was that just-
Kiley Reid 27:34
You know, I had so many comments about the cover that I shut up.
Traci Thomas 27:41
I wasn't sure I just noticed it, and I don't always notice font.
Kiley Reid 27:43
We went through maybe 100 covers, so I had to be cool for the rest of the book.
Traci Thomas 27:49
I'm obsessed with this cover.
Kiley Reid 27:50
Thank you. I like it too.
Traci Thomas 27:53
Okay, I'm curious about the other covers, but we don't have to do that. I recently had a conversation with an author and we talked about how like, oh, write a book, and then change the font and then then he'll be able to see like problems with the book whenever he's a poet. Like he's really into that. But so then I read your book right after talking to him. And I was like, these are different fonts. I wonder what she was doing?
Kiley Reid 28:12
Oh, if you ever want to, like, see all the mistakes you made, it's like just put it into a publishing situation. So the fonts and things do matter to me I wanted to cover that was in conversation with my old book, but different, I always want them to be a little bit different. I had a fight for this green. It was a special Penguin Random House printer situation. It was a lot of drama. But because there's no Razorback red on this.
There is none. I was a little scared.
Traci Thomas 28:37
Okay, you didn't want to get in like trouble.
Kiley Reid 28:40
I didn't. But they're very happy.
Traci Thomas 28:46
This is a me question. I always ask people this. How do you right? Where are you? How often do you have snacks and beverages? That part's important. Candles, rituals, I know that you had a kid during this book. So things change. So I'm just curious about your setup when you're doing this.
Kiley Reid 29:03
When, when it's possible. I like to write the same time every day. And like my dream scenario, it's like nine to two every day, I will take a lunch break. I think it's really important. I'm sure there's writers here to take your eyes up and not just be at the computer all the time. I think writing things is really helpful with this book. I wrote a lot on index cards, like paragraphs, so I can move them around and make sure everything was okay. At the same time. Listen, I love talking about process so much. But like it was during the pandemic. Things happen. And there were times like, we're like, my husband went to the dentist. So I would go and like sit in the car, like right in the waiting room or whatever. And just like do it. We're never you can just make it work. And of course having a baby too and everything. Sometimes it's like well, I just met her and it's 3am but I'm up and so let's just do this right now. And so I think you just make it work however you can.
Traci Thomas 29:54
Yeah, snacks and beverages?
Kiley Reid 29:58
Eh, Sometimes. I don't want to be un-fun, but like-
Traci Thomas 30:01
It's not fun you're doing.
Kiley Reid 30:05
I'll do a drink or two. But like, I gotta- I gotta keep it focused on the writing. Yeah.
Traci Thomas 30:11
What do you do for your lunch break?
Kiley Reid 30:12
What do I do for my lunch break?
Traci Thomas 30:13
Like, you do like the same kind of thing every day when you are writing nine to two and you take a lunch break? Or do you mix it up?
Kiley Reid 30:19
Same thing every day. I have a personality, I promise! I just usually like to keep it simple and eat the same thing every day. I like having a routine.
Traci Thomas 30:27
What's the thing?
Kiley Reid 30:28
Oh my god. I cannot tell you. It's humiliating. No, I couldn't.
Traci Thomas 30:32
I'm like trying to. I'm like, if it's humiliating is like an egg salad sandwich. That's humiliating to me. I would hate that. What else can be humiliating? You at the same salad every day?
Kiley Reid 30:41
Yes.
Traci Thomas 30:41
And it's really boring.
Kiley Reid 30:42
Yes!
Traci Thomas 30:43
Yeah. And you just do oil and vinegar.
Kiley Reid 30:45
No. A little dab sometimes of some dressing- this is humiliating. I just eat.
Traci Thomas 30:51
Okay, great. Yeah, everybody wants to know. This is a salad community.
Kiley Reid 30:57
Is anyone else like that? You just do a salad with some like bullshit protein and like, just call it a day.
Traci Thomas 31:03
That's not embarrassing. That's fine. Yeah, it's great.
Kiley Reid 31:05
Throw something on it.
Traci Thomas 31:06
Embrace your food, things. I have weird very weird food things that I'm very public about. So I'm really I'm very curious about I'm gonna get there. One more embarrassing question. What is a word you can never spell correctly on the first try?
Kiley Reid 31:18
There's so many!
Traci Thomas 31:19
Oh, good. Okay, you're a human. We can relate again.
Kiley Reid 31:22
Oh my god... necessary. Bureau. Speaker's bureau?Nightmare. I don't know if you asked me to spell it right now. I don't think I could do it. Um, embarrassed took me years.
Traci Thomas 31:34
I can't do it. Too many consonants.
Kiley Reid 31:36
Yes. What's one of yours?
Traci Thomas 31:40
Recommendation is one of my most common ones. And I say recommend too much. So it's very uncomfortable for me all the time. But I'm just so publicly a bad speller that now I just will even like send shit with the red line. I'm like, I'm not even gonna look it up. I don't care. I can't spell it. I'm not gonna fake it for you people.
Kiley Reid 31:56
I do find it funny that like when I can't spell some things people will be like, but you're a writer. And I'm like, it doesn't matter. They fix it for you and that's it.
Traci Thomas 32:04
I started asking this question. And I started getting answers back where I was like, okay, that's actually not great. Okay, I bet you've like won a Pulitzer. You know, but you know, it's almost time for you all to ask questions. But before I always ask this as sort of one of my last question, actually, I'm not gonna ask that. I'm gonna ask you this list. My last question. Were like the last ish stuff on your book tour. What's the thing that you haven't been asked about? Or the thing that you thought people would talk to you about about this book that just hasn't come up that you wish you got to?
Kiley Reid 32:37
No one wants to talk about the sex like at all? I thought it was crazy. I was like, so nervous about it. And so there's like, there's it happens for some people in this book. And I was so surprised. No one want to talk about that. I would say that Payton is probably my favorite character, and I love to talk about her more, in general is your favorite. I think that characters who aren't warm are really interesting. And Payton is the only other black resident on the floor aside from Millie, and I'm super interested in like, the invisible line drawn between the two Black people in a white space. Sometime like Millie sees her and she's like, Oh, I'm gonna like be your big sister. And Payton's like, stay away from me like they do with you. And it just kind of reminds me of thinking of those times in my own life. I go through pain. And I remembered when I was in graduate than undergrad, I was in a class. And there was another Black girl in there. I did not know her. And my friend was a TA. And she told me she wanted to talk to you. She talked to the teacher of that class. This guy was a jerk off. And she was complaining to her that no one participated. And she was like, oh, yeah, they do so and so talks. And Kylie asked questions. And he was like, who's Kylie? And she's like, Oh, she sits over there. And he was like, she went to a black girls, you know, I can't tell them apart. When I tell you that me and this girl looked nothing like like,
Traci Thomas 33:57
Nothing! We never look alike!
Kiley Reid 34:00
Never! We weren't friends. We weren't like enemies, but she was just like a person. And for the rest of college, I would see her and like, that's the moment I would think of. And so I wanted to like to pitch that that energy that goes between to black people in a really white space, and I hope that I nailed it here.
Traci Thomas 34:16
Yeah I think you did. I think you did. I think it's also interesting like how you talk about race in this book, because you don't necessarily talk about it. And for our book club, we just did a ratio by personal Everett and sort of like I'm thinking like maybe monk would be really proud of you because like you wrote a book about race without like talking about race or like a book that incorporates race without like, talking about it expressly?
Kiley Reid 34:40
Those are my favorite things. I know you were a theater, or secret theater girly too.
Traci Thomas 34:43
I'm not secret. Yes. I was also a theater major. I went to NYU. Thank you.
Kiley Reid 34:49
I don't know if you've read or seen The Flick by Annie Baker. But I'm like, This is how you talk about race. It's like on the ground real like problems that black people can have and white spaces like this and yeah, that's So I'm going for as well.
Traci Thomas 35:01
I love it. Okay, as promised, I'm back to guide you through the question and answer session. So the first question was a non question about how Kylie builds her characters, how she comes up with what Ryland Google searches or the names of a white, Keisha, and how that is created and crafted for the audience.
Kiley Reid 35:22
That's a great non question that's to be honest, I remember reading for me like learning the backstory is like part of like the enjoyment of the of these characters like I don't think if you are a writer in here, like people will tell you like you have to have like things moving all the time. Like some of my favorite moments is just learning why people are the way that they are. I don't know if you've ever read Freedom by Jonathan Franzen, which is like not one of my favorites. But there was this like backstory chapter.
Traci Thomas 35:48
I hate that book so much.
Kiley Reid 35:49
I like it. Listen, listen, finish it. I didn't even finish it, because it's not very good. But there's one chapter of backstory that is really good. And I was really inspired by like, what is that thing that comes in and you see some backstory and like, learn who the person is. And it's like, delightful and you feel like you're moving forward even though you're going back in time. And as far as Rylan there was so much more, and I got very edited appropriately. But it's also just a chance for me to be like, I think these things are funny. And this guy is charming. And that was that was Ryland.
Traci Thomas 36:19
Why was Ryland a Sacramento Kings fan?
Kiley Reid 36:24
Because I thought it would be funny.
Traci Thomas 36:25
I told you I had a bunch of questions. I just wanted to sneak it in.
Kiley Reid 36:29
Like Rylan is like this, this young, low income gay guy from Louisiana who's obsessed with the Sacramento Kings and steals food all the time. And I just like, wanted him to just be so who he was, and purely this like, guy whose tastes are really eclectic. But then when you learn about them, you're like,
Traci Thomas 36:48
Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, got it. Yeah. Anybody else have a question? Yep. Go ahead and talk about the sex and then we'll go to you. Sex first.
Kiley Reid 37:00
I was super interested in what these characters are, like bringing to like their sexual lives and like what parts that they think the other person wants to see of them. There's a character who starts having sex with someone else. And part of like, the biggest enjoyment for her is being in that person's bathroom afterwards and looking at their products and like learning about who they are as a person. And I just think that like, it was a strange, like, it's a strange relationship. And it's like, not cookie cutter. And it's like, two people doing something that like they would never follow through and actually date each other. And I think the reasons they wouldn't date each other are also fully associated with class as well. And sometimes I think in those situations, like people kind of turn up their class status and, and want to portray themselves as like, Oh, I'm just like a country girl, or ally. I'm like, the buttoned up professor and those moments, and sometimes they want to talk him down. And I like going between those two dynamics.
Traci Thomas 38:00
Your characters are really messy. How do you keep them messy? Like how do you not edit, like cleaning up too much?
Kiley Reid 38:07
I feel like they go back and forth so much. And I have a really wonderful editor with Millie in particular, actually, I had a girlfriend read the book and an earlier draft. And she was like, I'm a little bit nervous that Millie taking on perfect protagonist syndrome. And I did not want that either. And so I wanted to push her in the other way. I think it's super important for you to have characters making huge mistakes on one page and doing something right. On another page. I also feel like the way that this ball this was going was like a snowball effect a little bit and you're seeing characters get worse and worse. But this is four months in their lives. I think that's important to remember. This is just highlighting a certain section and season of their lives.
Traci Thomas 38:45
Yeah there's gonna be messy in five months. They're really they're 19 and 24 and whatever. Like, I'm messy and I'm old. So you back there? All-time favorite novels?
Kiley Reid 39:00
Okay, yeah, I hate saying this. But Giovanni's Room by James Baldwin, I still think is like one of the best not like it's so good. Like, it's good. I feel like everyone says it but it's like it's good for a reason. I guess it's like, no one does setting like him. I love the character of Hellas so much. It's a great book. When I was during pregnancy, insomnia, I reread The Secret History by Donna Tartt. And it is so it's funny, too. It's creepy. I thought that was like really, really knocked me out. I did my favorite like recent read was Paul Harding is this other Eden? He was my thesis advisor and I knew that he was a genius, but that book like, knocked me out if someone told me like, this is a story about like a family and like 1912 I'd be like, boring, but it's so good and electric and I cry like Paul hurtings writing is really incredible.
Traci Thomas 39:51
Yeah. Okay, question number four for Kylie was about what message does Kylie have for students of color and black college students who might be reading this book, What Does she hope to impart to them or that they might take away from this story?
Kiley Reid 40:05
See, I have so many minds about this, because the books that I want to read, stay with me and like, hold with me a bit, but don't tell me what to think. Because as soon as you tell me what you think I'm gonna think the other way, I've been a little bit with this one, I love it when my books can showcase a part of our world that we accept as normal. And just think like, that's how that is and make you think a little bit differently. With Millie in particular, she's an RA I was an RA for my senior year. And it's presented to us as like, this is like a great like leadership like opportunities situation, and you get free room and board and like a shitty room or whatever. But it's like Millie, when she's doing her ra things. She has to be on call all the time, like someone can come and say like I'm having I'm lonely. I'm having a fight, like at any moment. And she could be studying during those times. She could just be like hanging out and watching TV. I love books that make me zoom out a little bit and be like, is this like a great opportunity? Or is this kind of messed up that like, the level of equality makes some people work for the room and board and some and some not do it? So as soon as like you look at the systems that people are in, that's kind of what helps me make my characters messy. And like, Well, yeah, this is like, a weird situation where some people have to work to go to school, and, and some don't. And so then I can kind of let them do whatever they want. I would love for people to be able to look at like the world in general, like millions, like, I'm an adult. So now I buy a house like what if you didn't need to? What if it was just like, Oh, I got house A, B, or C from the government? And that was it. So those are things that I would love my books to like, open people's minds up to?
Traci Thomas 41:40
Yeah Okay, the next question was about writing, and how Kylie was able to focus on writing her second book, with so much noise in the world around her first book.
Kiley Reid 41:53
I mean, on like, a very basic level, staying away from the internet, like completely, like as, as much as like, entertainment is really important to me, in my novels, like everyone has different things, they're going to a novel for, like I want people to be really entertained. Ultimately, it's none of my business, what people think of my books, you know what I mean? Like, once it's done, I have to, like, shut it out. I don't read good reads or anything, if a review comes out, I do get excited to read it for better or for worse, but I try to really stay away from like, individual, like reader focus spaces, that and just like, when you are writing, everyone's like, Oh, so you already wrote one book, like how's it ready, the next one, it's like, still awful. That page is really humbling. And just because you've written one book that was received doesn't mean that there's another one that that's going to be easier. The great thing is I have a really great team. And when I signed on with my agent, she was like, I want to be here for the big ones. And for the flops, like you're gonna have such like range in your career. And so there was a freedom that such a fun age gave me because it didn't Well, it was like, okay, I can afford to like take some risk here a little bit. But also, I have a lot of students who do this thing, where the sample that like got them into grad school, they're trying to recreate that magic all the time. So I'm really lucky to see someone like trying to do it over and over again. And I'm not gonna say any names, but there are writers who also tried to do the same thing over and over again, and it sells but like, I have to sleep with myself at night, and I love to sleep. So it's like, I have to do something new for me as a writer. And it sounds really cheesy. But I think that like being curious and trying to do new things is going to keep my mind fresh. And so there's like a physical mental pressure for me to just try and do something new and keep all of that stuff out. Whatever you're interested in. It's just like getting obsessed with those things and, and making time for it.
Traci Thomas 43:48
Yeah. The next question was speaking of your students, how are you liking teaching?
Kiley Reid 43:54
I love teaching. I love teaching a lot. I'm really lucky that I get to teach graduate students and undergrads as well. And I have to admit, the undergrads are really fun, because usually they're like STEM students who need an art credit and they're like, this. I kind of like that place because they start off being like, I don't know anything. And by the end, they're like, No, surely Jackson sucks. I'm like, okay, so teaching is great. I've been doing it for like five years now. And I feel like it's difficult with bureaucracy of schools, but but I like being in the classroom at so far.
Traci Thomas 44:30
So good. Yeah. Are you really gonna ask a question? Okay, that's my husband. He never talks about these things. So I'm gonna let him go ahead. Sorry, I don't know him. Hi, sir. Please. Yes, yes. You in the mask? Yeah, go ahead. I know it really is Mr. Stacks asking the last question and he asked how has having kids changed your writing life? And extremely me question and a question that I think me and Mr. Stacks are always very interested in because you know, the Mini-stacks.
Kiley Reid 44:59
I want to say it's made me better. I feel like-
Traci Thomas 45:05
Spell it out a little more, Kylie.
Kiley Reid 45:10
I do feel like children at their best make you a more curious and selfless person. And so I want to believe that that's seeking and I love being a mom. And so, like, I was like, my friend got a cat and she was like, I feel like I'm 30% happier, like now that I have a cat. And I do feel like having a kid I'm like a good like, 80% happier like as a person. And so that's that's a huge plus, I think, but I think it also makes me like a lot less precious about certain things. Like sometimes, if my office is a mess, and I really want to clean it up. I'm like, you get two songs to clean and that's it. Because you get the end at this time and go and go be with your baby a little bit. So I think it's made me like probably physically Messier but better with my brain probably.
Traci Thomas 45:57
Yeah, I think so. Okay, I lied. There was one more question this person wanted to know. Did Kylie interview people in the south when she was doing her interviews for the book?
Kiley Reid 46:08
I did. I interviewed people at Arkansas Nashville. At first I knew I wanted to write about the South in general. I wasn't like brave enough to be like, Let's do Arkansas first. But then I knew I wanted to do it. So any place that people lived Joplin, Missouri, Chicago, I interviewed I interviewed a baton twirler from Atlanta down there. About 30 to 40 people and everyone was just really gracious.
Traci Thomas 46:31
Yeah. Okay, I'm cutting it off. You guys are amazing. Kylie's gonna sign. I just want to say thank you for everyone for coming out on a weeknight to Pasadena.
Kiley Reid 46:39
Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
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