Ep. 363 Gender and Genre Are the Same Word with Torrey Peters

Written By Megan Caballero

​This week, we’re joined by author Torrey Peters to discuss her new book, Stag Dance: A Novel & Stories, a collection that explores the complexities of desire, identity, and gender. Torrey shares how she freed herself to write after the success of her debut novel, Detransition, Baby, discusses her thoughts on the relationship between gender and genre, and what she finds most exciting about writing trans stories.

The Stacks Book Club pick for March is They Were Her Property by Stephanie E. Jones-Rogers. We will discuss the book on March 26th with Tembe Denton-Hurst returning as our guest.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Torrey Peters 0:00

I got a question yesterday from like, a British interviewer that was like, Are you stuck writing trans stories now forever? And I was like, it like, kind of shocked me. That question, not not only in terms of, like, well, is that so bad, but also like, Dude, I just gave you a lumberjack story. Like, obviously, trans stories can do anything, you know, we'll see what readers think of it. But people are like, seem to be down to, like, go with me on that. And that makes me feel like, if I want to do something else, a little like, you know, surprising, people might come with me and that, yeah, that's what you want. As writers, just like that, freedom to be like, let me try something out.

Traci Thomas 0:44

Welcome to the stats a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Traci Thomas, and today I'm thrilled to welcome to the podcast Torrey Peters. Tori's first book, the critically acclaimed novel de transition baby, was picked as a top 10 book of 2021 right here on the Stax podcast, her latest book, stag dance is a collection of three short stories and one novella that explores trans identity, power and transformation. Today, Tori and I talk about the relationship between genre and gender, how she freed herself to write again after the success of de transition baby, and what she is most interested in exploring as she tells trans stories. Don't forget our book club pick for March as they were her property white women as slave owners in the American South, by Stephanie e Jones, Rogers. We will be back to discuss that book on Wednesday, March 26 with Tenby Denton. Hearst. Be sure to read along and tune in. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love this podcast and you want a little bit more of it, a little inside access some fun bonus perks. Head to patreon.com/the. Stacks. To join the stacks, pack and slash, or go to Traci Thomas. Dot sub stack.com. To subscribe to my newsletter. Unstacked. You get a bunch of fun stuff, and you get to support the work of this show. All right, now it is time for my conversation with Torrey Peters. All

right, everybody. I'm so excited. She's here. It's Tori Peters, the author of stag dance, Tori, welcome to the stacks.

Torrey Peters 2:21

Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. I'm so happy to

Traci Thomas 2:25

have you. I read D transition, baby the year it came out. It made it on the stacks. Top 10 books of the year in 2021 and I have just been patiently waiting for whatever was next. It is stag dance. It is a joy to have you like I know my listeners are so excited. Everyone keeps bugging me, being like, are you gonna get Tory Peters? I'm like, I hope. But Tori, will you? We'll start where we always start, which is in about 30 seconds or so. Will you just tell folks what stag dance is about? Sure

Torrey Peters 2:54

it's a quartet of four stories, sort of like three novellas and one short novel, each in a different genre that each takes on a sort of a different aspect of trans life, or just kind of gendered life in general. So that's speculative fiction, teen romance, tall tale, Western. And finally, a horror. Yes,

Traci Thomas 3:19

I love the collection. I had so much fun thinking about both genre and gender and also how those things maybe are, like, super connected.

Torrey Peters 3:31

Yeah, I think, yeah. So some people would say it's the same, same word in French, or whatever. People I've been told, Oh, is that true genre? Genre is gender in French. Wow,

Traci Thomas 3:44

let's go back. We'll come back to gender and genre. But for now, I want to know about sort of the process with this book I read at the end, how you've been working or these stories have been with you for, some of them, 10 years. So I want to know first, what order you wrote them in Sure,

Torrey Peters 4:01

so I wrote them. The first two were part of a project that I was doing in Brooklyn. I moved to Brooklyn to be sort of part of a trans writing scene, and the scene was based around a press called topside press. But the problem with having a scene based around the press is that a press can really only do a couple books a year, especially when it's like, getting published out of, you know, my ex boyfriend's living room, which is literally what it was so and I was, and there was a lot of like, you know, hard feelings. It's like, why did they choose those three books when there's so many of us are writing? And so I had this idea that we should all be writing novellas, because the novella takes, you know, a couple months to write, rather than, ideally, a couple of months to write, rather than, you know, a novel which can take years, and when I and then I self published my novellas to sort of create this, this kind of exchange like you would do with zines with other trans women. So the first two that were part of that project were. Are infected friends and loved ones, which is a speculative fiction story in which, like, sort of two ex lovers create a contagion that prevents everybody's bodies from producing hormones, and so everybody has to, like, inject hormones the same way that trans people do. And it's kind of like what happens when everybody has to make the same choice that trans people make. So that was like the first one, and then the second one was called the massacre, which is about kind of the relationship between fetish and trans identity, and which seemed like a very loaded topic that I wanted to take on. And that's a story of like a sort of person who considers themselves like an online sissy who goes in real life to a convention in Vegas and kind of has to make a choice between a trans woman who is pushing kind of respectability politics and like, this is what it means to be a real woman, and the massacre, who's a fetishist who wears a like full body silicone Woman suit and like comes to Vegas to like party, but lives the rest of his life as as as a doctor. And it kind of was like, who counts as trans, what, what you know. And it's set up as a horror story where, where the decision is is sort of horrific. Either way, if you have to be as you know, be respectable all your life, or you have to live in the closet all your life. And

Traci Thomas 6:23

then when, when did you write stag dance and the college or the high school? So story that which is my favorite? Oh, good. That's one of my I love story too. I think that might be my favorite, too. It's Oh, you're not supposed to tell us. I mean, I'm like, I love

Torrey Peters 6:42

it. That one was, like, the easiest, right, which sounds like a, like a, like a slam on it, but actually was like, when something's really easy to write, it's usually like a joy. It's like, it's coming like an inspiration,

Traci Thomas 6:51

right? It just like comes out of you easily, and you just like, know where you're going, what you're doing.

Torrey Peters 6:56

And that one that happened for that. So basically the the idea was that I was always going to write these novellas in genres. And what happened is I started writing the third one, which was going to be like a soap opera melodrama, and it just turned into de transition, baby. And that just like totally derailed this project. So, you know. And the thing about a soap opera Melodrama is, like that was a terrible choice for a novella, because soap operas go on forever.

Traci Thomas 7:19

They go on forever. They're not self

Torrey Peters 7:21

contained little things. So, you know, the transition baby happened, and it kind of just like, totally changed my life, you know. And I had a couple years worth doing screenwriting, and at the end of it, I was like, I came back. I was like, Maybe I want to do this project again. And then I started the chaser, like in the run up to the publication of de transition baby. So I kind of had the bones of it, and then I was able to finish that one, you know, really pretty easily. But the problem is with the the last one, I had a totally different idea for it than the the Western the stag dance, which is the title story. And I just kept on. I felt like it was so hard to write with all the expectations a de transition baby put on me, like it was like, Oh, you write these, like, witty contemporary stories about, like, urban femininity and transness and like, I enjoy that, but I had just spent like four years talking about it And and every time I kind of got close to that, I felt like, just, just like, really, kind of crushed by by, yeah, by that idea. And I was, I was building a sauna in the woods, and I was just like, actually cutting down trees. And I was kind of like, you know what? Like, what if I just wrote something that, like nobody was expecting. And, like, maybe nobody was, like, thought they wanted, you know, and, and that that would actually free me to, like, kind of do whatever I want, because it because, you know, you know, everyone ended up being like, we don't want this. I'd be like, Well, yeah, of course, it's a bunch of loggers in the woods who nobody was asking for, you know, but, but for me. So I ended up writing this whole story in a kind of like logger idiom that ended up for me being, like, totally freeing. It was a little bit perverse to make that choice, but it was really freeing because, because, number one, I felt like I was writing without any expectations, and number two, all of the ways that people talk about gender and transness that, in some ways get a little over determined or calcified. I had to kind of reinvent them, to talk about them, like a, you know, turn of the century logger would talk about them. So can

Traci Thomas 9:33

you say more about what you mean by that, like the language that gets calcified talking about transness, like, more specifically, sure,

Torrey Peters 9:39

yeah. Like, you know, a word like gender dysphoria, you know, like that is something that, if you're going on the internet and talking about transness, people will say words like that. And that word, like, you know, comes from the medical world, is like, it's kind of a discoursing word, like, internet, yes, you know. And you. And the thing is, like, a lot of those words just feel dead to me. They're just like, like, you put them in a you put them in a fiction piece, and it's just like, there's like a clunk in the sentence, you know, right? And so, like, for instance, like the logger, when the logger says it's basically communicating something that's like, just dysphoria, he says, no mirror has ever befriended me. And right? And like, I don't, I don't really use words like, befriend me, like, as a verb, like, Please befriend me, you know. Like, that's not my word speaking, but like, I remember, like, you know, times in my life that I've looked in a mirror and been like, This mirror is being mean, you know, like, right, right, and like, that feeling, you know, I never would have really thought to say something like that if I wasn't constrained to, like, say it so differently than right. I'd said it most of my life, and so, so that last one is, is, for me, it's like a very happy departure, but certainly, like, it's like a new thing for me to write in this way. And I did a lot of research and kind of invented this idiom, and it took me, it took me about a year and a half to, like, even be able to write in the style,

Traci Thomas 11:17

wow. I mean, it definitely, it definitely feels like a departure, not only from de transition baby, but also like from the other stories in the book. Like it definitely feels like the title story, because it feels so different, like you start it and you're like, wait a second as a reader, which, you know, I think is really fun and exciting. Because I think sometimes in a story collection, because you have to start over so many times, it can feel like you're just restarting the same car over and over. But with this book, and especially with that third story stag dance, it's like, oh, I'm actually starting a totally different vehicle each time, like your voice changes your like lead character feels so different each time from one another. And so there's sort of like, a and I mean, this, in a good way, sort of like a novelty to each story that is inviting and also, like, kind of scary for the reader. Of like, what is this going to be? Like, where are we going? I

Torrey Peters 12:15

mean, I had definitely, I'm glad that that one is third, because it asks the most of the reader. I think that one and like, you know, it was definitely a choice. And I, you know, I do think that that there are going to be people who are like, wow. Like, there's just, like, four words in this first sentence that I, I've never heard before.

Traci Thomas 12:35

I didn't know any

Torrey Peters 12:38

of the words. And like, you know, to me, a lot of it, the fun of it is actually just like, I mean, I didn't I found this dictionary of, like, lager slang. I should explain to someone what the story's about, but I, like, was reading this logger slaying and a lot of it was, like, the words are just so chewy. They were so like, like, yeah, in your mouth. Like, the word for chewing tobacco is scanda Whovian dynamite, which I think is, like, strange way of saying Scandinavian. Like, nobody says scanda Whovian, right? No, and, like, and, and so just, you know, but it felt to me like what it's like to talk to somebody like, I like the oftentimes, experience of talking to people who have just, like, idioms that I don't know, you know, yeah, like, even some you just use a metaphor of cars. Like, sometimes I go to the car mechanic, and the car mechanic, like, opens up the car and he says, like, 10 words, I don't know, and you're just like, and I'm definitely like, I'm clearly, I'm very much at the car mechanic. I know it partially because I understand, and partially because I don't understand. And they're like, right? And like, I was interested at times of reproducing that experience. Like, of course, if a 19th century logger is talking to you, you don't know every word that he says and like that can be uncomfortable. I think, for a reader to be like, you know? Because I think the way we're, like, taught to read is like, Oh, if you don't know every word, like, look it up. Look it up. Or it's a reflection on you as a reader. And yeah, you know, for me, I'm just like, just kind of flow with it, you know? If it doesn't, if a word, if you don't know a word, like, you probably will be a fine like, yeah, the main points are, I think, pretty clear, and the rest of its texture, you know, yeah,

Traci Thomas 14:16

I think that's so interesting Tori, because now it's my turn to be pretentious. I love Shakespeare. I'm a huge Shakespeare fan. And people are always like, but I don't understand it. I don't get it. And I'm always like, I don't know, just read it out loud and like, just keep going. And then, if you really, really don't know, like, look at the notes. But I so rarely look at the notes when I read Shakespeare, because a lot of it is, I just say it out loud and like, let it kind of just, like, wash over me. And you can and like, the major plot points, you'll figure out, because Shakespeare loves to say them over and over, like, it's not like, he's gonna, like, secretly tell you something. He's gonna tell you, like, exactly who Juliet is to Romeo at least 17 times before act two. And I sort of feel like that's what happened with this, with this story, because at first I was like, I Oh, my God, I'm so confused. And then I was. Like, just, like, go with it. Like, you definitely don't know a single thing about, like, a lumberjack or a lager or even, like, what the difference is between those two kinds of people. So, like, just kind of carry on and, like, see how it goes. And I did switch to audio for a little bit, and the audio reader on stag dance, that's the only one I actually listened to parts of. But the audio reader for stag dance was so good, and so I think that helped too, of just being like, I don't know what this guy's saying to me, but I love it here. Keep talking. Yeah,

Torrey Peters 15:30

he has a good voice. They are just like a couple of them, they sent me the audio. So the cool thing that the Random House did for the audio is that they they got a different reader for each Yes, I saw that story and, like, that's a production, you know. So I was kind of, like, I was a bit honored that was like, wow, like, four different actors are interpreting each of the stories. And, like, yeah, gives it. And I was trying to do four different voices. And so like, you know, I haven't listened to the to the audiobook all the way through, but, like, it just hearing I'm like, Oh, this really, actually, like, augments, what I was trying to do. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 16:06

I want to ask you about something you touched on earlier that. I'm always curious about authors who have success with their debut, which is, like, the pressure that you were feeling going into whatever the second book was going to be and just going back to the page as a writer after D transition, transition, baby was, like, kind of everywhere, and you mentioned, like, you sort of wrote stag dance as a response to some of that, to free yourself up. Do you feel now more free as a writer? Do you feel like you're able to write again, or do you feel a lot of stress as this book is now coming into the world? No,

Torrey Peters 16:37

it really freed me. You know, I got a question yesterday from like, a British interviewer that was like, Are you stuck writing trans stories now forever? And I was like, it like, kind of shocked me. That question, not, I mean, not, not only in terms of, like, well, is that so bad? But also like, Dude, I just gave you a lumberjack story. Like, obviously trans stories can do anything. Like, well, that's

Traci Thomas 17:03

like the Toni Morrison, like, Are you only going to write about black people? Like, that's what did she say, that you have no idea how profoundly disrespectful, or whatever that is. Yeah,

Torrey Peters 17:14

I should have said that. I should have been, like, you've disrespected me, British man, but I did. I was, you know, I was, I mean, I just said I don't think I'm stuck. I'm honored to do it. But you know that that and that kind of thing was like, you know, it's like, oh, the stuff that I do actually, I get to do anything with it. And, you know, we'll see what readers think of it. But so far, like the publisher of the reviews, people are like, seem to be down to, like, go with me on that. And that makes me feel like, okay, well, I want to do, if I want to do something else, a little like, you know, surprising people. People might come with me, and then, yeah, that's what you want. As writers, just like that, freedom to be like, let me try something out and and, you know, fair people don't want to always go with you on it, but like, it felt better than sort of, like, making the same joke over and over and over to diminishing returns, which is what I think I was started doing after de transition, baby.

Traci Thomas 18:10

Yeah, I mean, I think that's, I think you're right, because I wasn't sure what to expect with this book. And I'm, like, fascinated by Tori Peters horror writer, right? Like, I, like, the masker was so, like, icky. It really, like, was sticky and gross and, like, I just, like, hated it. And I was like, how is she doing this to me? Right? Like, and so I think, I think generally, did you? Maybe you free yourself up, but I think you freed your audience up to, like, not know what to expect from you, right? Like, you've now given us five book, five stories in five different extremely different genres, really well. And so for me as a reader, I'm like, Whatever she does next, like, we absolutely have to read, even if it's a repeat of one of these five previous ones. Like, I want to see I want to see you do it again. Or, like, see you do it in a different way. And so I think you sort of told us to, like, back off a little bit in some ways.

Torrey Peters 19:09

Well, that's nice to the it's nice to you heard my subtext. I'm so thrilled, actually, that people are willing to come along. It's like, and then I do think that, like, it was, like, I needed to write something like this, and I'm proud, like, I wasn't just like a therapy thing to write about shoulder jacks for two kids.

Traci Thomas 19:30

No, it's good on its own. It's good on its own. But

Torrey Peters 19:34

it was, you know, like it kind of, also it gave me confidence, you know, like I want to, you know, I have like, ambitions for, like, I want to write a big novel next, you know. And it's sort of like, I now feel like, okay, I can do voices like I can do I'd never done anything like that before. So now I feel like, okay, I can do different voices, like and like I and like next. Time I take on a big novel. I have those with me now, and, yeah, it makes me excited to do more things. Is absolutely free. You know, I love

Traci Thomas 20:13

that I have it maybe a stupid question, but what's the difference to you between novel, novella and story.

Torrey Peters 20:21

Okay, so the thing about these pieces, which, which I almost like use like pieces on my own when I'm talking about it, is like, is that they're actually kind of none of those things. Like, I think that the the three ostensibly short stories in the piece that are novellas are all around 15,000 to 17,000 words. That is like an unpublishable length in most publishing industries, like, if you want to get a story in a magazine, it should be like, you know, 5000 words, it's like a good sized story. Like 8000 is like, You're a star of the literacy, and that you're taking up this much space in our magazine, right? 17,000 is like, what you want half our magazine for your story. Like, they don't, they don't give it to you. Meanwhile, 17,000 is way too short for a book. You know, people be like, Well, I'm not buying this pamphlet, you know, like, and so, so like, for me, it turns out, like I actually like letting the stories kind of be the length that they want to be. And so what you have in this thing are, like, are three things that I guess you might call like a novel like, in the actual word count, this length is like novelette, which is a word that nobody uses. So like, even, like, I wrote some novelettes, they'd be like, you are confused about how to end the word novel, you know, like, and so, like, stag dance is 42,000 so I want to say 1000. I mean 42,000 words. Yeah, I'm referring to so stag dance, according to random houses, like, like, word count, right? Counts as a novel, but it's like, only 2000 over. So like, if you die, you'd be like, That's so short. But like, for me, like the fun of actually having all these stories isn't like, I can create a substantial book out of a series of things that are the length that they want to be outside of, sort of like the apparatus of the publishing industry, and I can let the stories be the stories that they want, that they should be, which is how people used to write, before everything got kind of streamlined. I like that, that I got to kind of do this interesting lengths of pieces, because I do think they end up resonating with each other. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 22:37

yeah. I just was curious, because I was calling them stories and a novella, but then when I got it says novel and stories, and I was like, Well, I don't know the difference at this point. I'm like, I don't know. I don't think it matters. I think it's really the true answer, yeah.

Torrey Peters 22:50

Like, the funny thing is that same, the American Book says a novel and stories, the British when, when the Americans sent over to the British novel and stories, they're like, Oh no, no, no, no, we're not gonna say that's awkward. So they just say stories. They said a quartet. Oh, okay, and I like that. That's nice. That's elegant. The Germans said, I don't know the German for it, but they said a figure in four, which was like, Oh, wait,

Traci Thomas 23:16

I like, that's very stag dance, yeah? Figure in four is, like, that's what you use in stag dance story, you know it's

Torrey Peters 23:23

like, it's kind of what the stories are, not only just like what you think, it's also apparently like, Where in the world you are, which is fun to do.

Traci Thomas 23:31

Okay, let's take a quick break and come back and talk some more. Okay, we're back. I want to talk now about gender and genre. Apparently, same word, different language, speaking of where you are in the world, okay, you got that question of, like, are you done writing about trans things yet? Which so fucking rude. Like, sorry to that man. You didn't say it. I said it. Don't worry, I'll get in trouble. But I do. I mean, I think what's really interesting about what you do in this book is like you make us think about both gender and genre as things that are not the way that we are told to think about them. I mean, I think subverting is maybe like the way that a normal person would say that last sentence. And I'm wondering, like, as you're writing these stories, how much of it is you saying, I want to subvert gender norms, I want to subvert genre norms, and how much of it is you saying this character is talking to me about this thing, like, What? What? Like, how are you how do you approach? Because I know some writers are like, I sit down. I don't know what's going to happen, and the character tells me everything. And some writers are like, I have a story in my head. I outline it. I want to say these points. I'm trying to get this across. So how are you thinking about kind of what you're doing?

Torrey Peters 24:52

I mean, I'm mostly, I'm looking for what feels to me like an emotional truth, you know? And then I'm moving from there. So, you know. There's, there is the way that you're supposed to, you know, I wasn't like, sort of like, Oh, look at me. I'm so transgressive. It was more like, right, right. It was more like, there's the way that, I think one is, you know, taught to talk about gender, and then there's the way that it feels emotionally. And those two things are not always the same, you know. So like, let's say even like just something as basic as like a transgender identity. And to me, transgender identity only matters insofar as like it creates a kind of political solidarity. But the idea that like you know that there's some common thing that's like, an intrinsic to right to like a trans experience that you must have in order to be trans is something that, like I it just doesn't feel real to me. And so the stories kind of all push against it. And I sometimes say about this collection that, like, you know, people think of trans as, like, breaking apart, sort of like a male female binary. But I'm much more interested in breaking apart a cis trans binary, where, you know, at what point does a cisgender person become transgender? Right? What? Who gets to decide who's transgender? You know, and that, in fact, you know, when I think about these stories, much of the of the emotional building blocks in them that you would that you'd use to say this character is trans. And, by the way, very only, I think, I think, like, three or four characters in the whole book actually, like, identify as trans. Everyone else is kind of like having weird gender feelings. But the building blocks that you'd say, like, oh, this character might be trans are actually the building blocks that, like, we're all kind of experiencing, I think things like, you know, desire, the difference between, you know, the way you want to be seen by the world and the way that the world sees you, and the frustration of that, like space definitely feelings of shame and what, how are you going to live up to expectations of who you should be? Feelings of regret, what you give up when you make a choice. These are the things that like, to me, make a trans experience, but it's ironic, because they're also the things that make an experience for everybody else you know, any

Traci Thomas 27:05

human being ever you know. Like,

Torrey Peters 27:07

you think about my my thing recently was, like, watching all the right wing guys like, wave chain saws on stage, you know, having just written about loggers, you know, yeah? And like, basically what they're trying to do is like, be like, Look at me. I'm like, a rugged guy, yeah? And you're like, oh no. Like, what you're do, what you want to be saying, and what you're saying is a big difference. And that, like, yeah, and that actually, like, the that trans people have language for what's going on with your performance right now, with your chainsaw, and the way that it's like kind of failing, and the feelings of, you know, the bad feelings that I'm sure happen when you wave a chainsaw and you don't and always, no one is impressed, you know, and that kind of, you know, the questions around, you know, the body that you might have, and what you wish the body would say about you versus, you know, I think about again, like, you know, how much people complain about how tall they are in their in their dating profile. Like, right? Am I seen the way that I want to be seen? And how come four inches makes such a big difference? You know, that's right, that's, that's a body question, same as a trans body question. And, and these, these, like, I don't think that there's anything particularly other about the trans experience, and that makes that, that that basically inflex the way I write because it feels true to me, not because I'm like, you know, I want to change the paradigm or something,

Traci Thomas 28:39

right? Is there any part like about I think about this a lot as like a black woman, I'm like, there are some things about like blackness that people are really interested in that are super boring to me. Do you feel like there are things about like transness, air quotes that are like, that you're asked about, or that you are people expect from you, that you're like, that is the least interesting part of this to me as a writer, as a trans woman, just in general.

Torrey Peters 29:04

I mean, I think, like, you know, you get asked a lot about, like, you know, surgeries and hormones and stuff like that. And like, you know, at some point that becomes very boring. Because, like, you know, I've been giving myself a shot every week for 10 years, and it's just like, right? It's just, it's like, you know, it's like, brushing your teeth or something. Yeah, it's like, how many conversations you want to have about how you brush your teeth? You're not, right, right, right? Not an action, not because you're like, oh, it's, yeah, I think there's a way to, like, it's so invasive of my space and but really, it's just sort of like, I don't care about brushing my, you know,

Traci Thomas 29:33

right? Like, it's just, like, such a non part of my

Torrey Peters 29:37

thing. But, you know, I think that the other thing is that, like, it's the, I think it's the framing that I get bored of, you know, where, like, the trans experience is this particular thing. You know, people be like, right? Oh, what kind of like gender augmenting surgeries did you have? And it's like, everybody's doing gender augmenting surgeries all the time. That's what cosmetic surgery is, why you're trans. Know, right? You know. And so, like, the frame, I get so tired of the framing where it's like, oh, what surgeries are you gonna have to be a woman? And it's like, you know, someone will ask me that, who's had, like, a nose job and and collagen, you know, right? Injections. And it's like, what interview do you have to be a woman? You know, right? We're both doing it, you know, right? And that, right? And like, that kind of, like, awareness, of, like, the thing you're asking me about as alien is the thing that you actually already know the answer to, and not only the intellectual answer to, you know, the emotional answer to it, you know, yeah, yeah, that's interesting, yeah, I'm feeling with, like, you know, it's like, I just want to say to people, like, I'm feeling what you're feeling, what you're feeling, you know, like, that's what's going on. It's

Traci Thomas 30:44

whatever you're doing. Why ever you're doing it is, why ever I'm doing it? Yeah, no, totally. That makes so much sense. Okay, I want to go back to genre. I am obsessed with genre. It's like, because I never thought about it at all before I started, really started working in books, and it comes up so much in like, the publishing world. It's how people sort of, you know, market themselves or position themselves, even though it's not always how the people who are writing or the creatives think about the work as they're doing it. It's sort of something that sometimes can come after the fact. And I think that's really interesting. I think it's like, you know, putting putting those rules on something, like trying to fit something into a specific slot. But I'm wondering, like, when you were writing these stories, and because you were working towards these genres, like you said, you kind of knew what you were doing, did you feel like it helped you, or made any made to anything more or less clear in thinking about genre as a writer. Yeah.

Torrey Peters 31:47

I mean, I think genre works really well because it gives you kind of shortcuts at times, like, you know, like, like, there's a script, right? And like, what's fun about a genre is the way that you deviate from the script, not so much the way that you follow it. And so, for instance, in like, in fact, your friends and loved ones, which was a post apocalyptic story, you know, everybody's already seen Mad Max, they've seen the road. They've seen all the sources.

Traci Thomas 32:15

I've not seen any of these things.

Torrey Peters 32:18

Not everybody, not anybody. Actually, I'm nobody. I've disappeared you time to myself on this podcast. Okay, so let's see what post apocalyptic

Traci Thomas 32:32

stories. I mean, yes, I've seen post apocalyptic things. Station 11. I saw a few episodes of what is that? The Last of Us Perfect. Okay, I love that's

Torrey Peters 32:41

what I meant. Yeah, everybody, everybody knows, though that's

Traci Thomas 32:45

Well, anybody who's anybody has seen the three things that I just named. Everybody else might have seen the other things. But also, nobody, nobody's

Torrey Peters 32:53

okay. So what will the in The Last of Us? For instance, like you people, have seen enough that, like, it's like there's hunters on the road, right? Like, I can just say that sentence. And if you're in the post apocalyptic genre, you have to do anymore, right? Where? Like, if I'm doing, like, realist fiction, I have to be like, here's these guys. And, like, the, you know, they've been looking for, for a cow to eat, right? Five days, you know, something, right, right, right, right. And if I, if everyone knows the genre rules, I say there's hunters on the road, and then I don't have to do anything more. I can just go on to the thing that I care about, which is, like, the relationship between my characters. And the only thing that matters is, sort of like, what the way I'm diverting from, from the typical post apocalyptic thing, anything else, I'm just sort of like, yeah, you know this, like, I have to spend time on it, and we can stick entirely to the interesting stuff, and it like moves the plot forward. So, so, so easily. So, you know, it's the same sort of in the chaser, where it's, it's a a teen romance, where it's a sort of, like a, a bro, like a, like a an athlete, a jock, or whatever, who gets put at boarding school with his roommate, Robbie, who's like, feminine and like, maybe is like a pre transition trans woman, although, like, the characters don't know kind of what they're feeling, which is important to me to like, not know how them know everything. And in that, like so much of what I was thinking about where we're like, these kind of homosocial boarding school novels, like brides have revisited a separate piece mixed with kind of like Twilight, you know, where it's like, there's one character who's got a lot of yearning for something that is forbidden And and like and like, that is, that's the formula, right? And so then it's like, like, what matters is not all of it. It's like, that provides me a framework with a bunch of shortcuts to then just make it mine. You know, I kind of love that stuff. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 34:55

I, I love the chaser. I can't I like. When you were writing, I guess that story in particular, but more broadly, all of the things that you've written, do you know, like, how much do you know about where you're going?

Torrey Peters 35:09

Both the chaser and stag dance had an idea of where I was going, and then I ended up going somewhere totally different. The Chaser, for instance, there's some stuff that there's a there's some moments of violence that come in the middle of the story and and they're kind of, like the sort of setting scene. And in my initial version, the story ended, like, right there where it was sort of like, you know, a little bit was, like the thing, it's a little bit with the masker does, where you sort of like, punch your audience in the stomach and then walk away, yeah. And I did that because it was, like a move that I knew how to do. And then actually, that story sat for like a year, and I was like, You know what? That actually doesn't feel like emotionally, right? Like that doesn't feel like that doesn't feel like what I want to do. It doesn't feel like what these characters want like. It feels like they need to at least give a try to saying what they really want from each other and that, like, that, like, and the point of the story is not sort of, oh, that whether or not they get together in the end, but like, whether or not they can just be honest with each other and like and stop, Stop telling each other kind of lies, and that that, to me, just felt so much more emotionally true, and so that there's a full third more of the story from where I initially ended it stag dance. I got really into, like, Okay, so let me just explain the plot of stag dance really quickly to your readers. So what this plot of stag dance is that there's a bunch of men in an illegal logging camp where it's on government land, and they go there in the winter when the ground is frozen, so they can drag the logs. And they cut as many logs as they can around the turn of the century, and drag them out before spring, when the Tim timber inspectors come and they're super lonely in the woods and like they're grumpy. And so they decide to have a dance where some of the men can attend the dance as a woman. And to do that, you cut out this like triangle of brown fabric and hang it over your crotch, which, by the way, is a historical thing that they did. And then they have a dance. And the part of the story is that there's one blogger who's named babe Bunyan, who's like, great name Bunyan, because of the, you know, because of the AX man of legend. He's like, he's like, Paul, never heard of him, yeah, and he's babe, because babe had an ox, and he's as ugly as an ox, and he decides he wants to go to the dance as a woman. And he gets, like, really jealous of, like, the younger, prettier loggers, who, for who, like other people, want to go to the dance as a woman. And, like, you know, it's it all kind of fall falls, it falls into chaos. You know, when, when he decides to, when the strongest, strongest AX one decides to, to go to the dance as a woman. But I got, like, really involved into, like, what is the economy of, of getting these logs out? And I was like, Oh, this is going to be so great. It's gonna be like a gangster epic, only with logs or something like that. And then about, like, halfway through, I was like, this is, I don't know if this is working. And I looked at it and I realized, I was like, oh, no, this is a high school dance movie in a western, right? It's like, it's like, Carrie. It's like, she's all that, she's all that 10 Things I Hate About You. It's like it all builds up to the big dance and and that there was something really funny to me about these loggers having, like, a high school dance, you know, kind of set up, which is just like another genre, right? Like seeing a high school dance in a western, like, the incongruity of that was, like, amused me. And so I kind of just like, jettison the whole ending. And was like, now it's a high school dance movie set in an illegal logging camp, and it it, for me, it totally worked that way. And it was, like, really fun to do it that way. You

Traci Thomas 38:56

know what's so funny as I'm thinking about all of the stories, they're all sort of just high school stories, like the masker is definitely there's a high school version of this story that's like, Who are you gonna be with the cool kids? Are you gonna feel like, it's like, that same I don't know. I feel like there's definitely that like, mean, like, mean girls. I feel like, in fact, your friends and lovers has like, mean girl vibes. It could, you know, yeah,

Torrey Peters 39:20

I think there's, there's there's, I think the two things that it feels like are, you know, something I like in, especially in doing a short story, right, is to do, like, an enclosed world, right? Yeah, and yeah, high school stories are, like, a perfectly example, right? An enclosed world. Like, sometimes family stories are that way. Or even, like, you know, mysteries are oftentimes, like, stick 12 people in a locked room, and which one of them? Yeah, the murder, right? Like you can, you can, by having these, like, almost like nothing outside of the world, you can pressurize it so much. And so that's like, a, that's a trick that I, you know, that I definitely, I don't think I did in de transition, baby, but I do it in shorter form. Addiction, for sure. And I think the other thing is that I'm interested in cruelty. I mean, I would say that the cruelty that I'm interested in is more like sisterly cruelty that, like, you have to, like, love somebody and be intimate with somebody in order to be cruel to them. And you know that to me, feels a lot like my relationship with other trans women, not that like we're we're walking around, always cruel to each other, but there's a kind of recognition and kinship of a sisterly relationship that makes us vulnerable to each other and therefore vulnerable to betrayal and cruelty. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 40:35

like intra community relations, like that intimacy leads to the cruelty or can or, like, leaves you vulnerable to it. I think it's right, yeah,

Torrey Peters 40:45

and so I'm interested. I mean, I think other trans writers are like, you know, trans women being cruel to each other all the time. And I'm just like, yes, let's do it. But

Traci Thomas 40:53

that, again, speaking to your earlier point, that might be true in in like, your trans experience or whatever. But, like, that's also true in every community, right? Like, I was a drama kid, yeah, intimacy leading to cruelty. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, any, any community, any, like, really, you know, intense community that you're a part of lead can lead to that because there is the vulnerability and, like, sort of the connection that you have to forge to really be part of that community. Yeah? And then then there's the mean people, and

Torrey Peters 41:26

I think you're trying to destroy your life. Yeah, you're completely right. And thank you, which just

Traci Thomas 41:32

speaks to your earlier point of like it's all the same shit. It's just like, different, you know, yeah, different ones, different, yeah, different lenses, Zimmer, boxes, okay, speaking of names, we talked about babe Bunyan, how do you name your characters? Where do the names come from for you, and do they stick? Usually, sometimes

Torrey Peters 41:48

I do like, I feel that I don't have a great sense of like, naming conventions. Like in stag dance, for instance, the characters all did have different names. And then I started, like, looking at, like, the actual names of of logger names. And there was so much, like, historically, it would be like, you know, stories about loggers, and loggers would be like, three finger James came over, and it was like, it was like, Whoa. You guys really just called each other that like, you know. And I was like, Well, this is funny. Like, I would never name a character, that sort of thing, but apparently that's what loggers did. And so, like, I have to do it, yeah. Like, I had like, kind of like, reasonable names in the first draft of of stag dance. And then I was like, I guess I need ridiculous names or all these characters, I rename those characters. I'm really bad at naming narrators, like a lot of times when first person narrators are kind of like nameless, and I kind of enjoy doing first person narrative about gender stuff in short stories, because you don't have to use any pronouns. So it can all be kind of like indeterminant. I all the time. But that doesn't totally answer your question. I think, yeah, I think it's mostly it's story by story. And as I'm getting more into things like the sound of language, I am paying more attention to like, does a character's name flow? You know, when you say it, whereas I think, like, in in fact, your friends and loved ones, you know, I just chose names that were like common trans girl names at that time, like Lexi. I knew so many Lexis, and because I think it was like, at the time, there were, like, a lot of people whose names were originally Alex, and then they transitioned, and they started calling themselves Lexi like and like, and that particular like naming convention amongst trans people has totally fallen away. So in some ways, like those naming conventions are are like, a little bit like relics of the time that I was like thinking about these people, right?

Traci Thomas 43:58

And the time that the story set a little bit, yeah. Um, okay. How do you like to write, how many hours a day, how often music or no in your home, out in the world, snacks and beverages, rituals? So tell us about it. I've,

Torrey Peters 44:15

like, kind of completely changed the way I write in the last couple years. I used to be the kind of person who, I mean, part of the has to do with, like, how can you afford to write? You know, like, if you have a day job, you you maybe have to write in a particular way. And since you transition baby, I have had much more free time to write. And so I kind of, like, have been writing seasonally. And then the other big change, so I'll expand that. But the other big change, which, if you read de transition, baby, I wrote like, half of it back when I used to take Adderall. So like, Oh, I feel like the first half of it, how to, kind of like, because the way I was living, I would have, like, three days to myself, and then I'd have to, like, work. Work a bunch, and, like, a kind of emotionally draining work for a couple days, and I have a couple days myself. So when I have a couple days to myself, I would take Adderall so I could write for like, eight hours or something. And the the flow of those things, like I read them now, and it's like, it is a little like, they were initially, like, a little speedy to me and like, and then this happened. And then this happened, and this happened, you know, and when I and then I stopped midway through writing de transition, baby, and I started getting like, into like, meditation and being like, I'm gonna write in the morning. And like, like, all these writers I imagined, and the style of the writing changed, like, it got like, a lot, kind of like, in some ways, less intense, but also more playful. There was a lot more humor, and I had to edit that book to make the second half read. I mean, make the first half read like the second half. I actually liked the style the second half better, but it was totally inflected by like the way I was writing, and like my life at the time and since then. So, like, I would say that the intent, that icky intensity that you're talking about in, in, in the massacre, in a weird way, my way of writing was, like, let me get like, super, like, agitated, you know, like, you almost, like, picture, like some like, dark German pounding technologies, like, as you're writing this, like, yeah, like, icky, sticky, like, dark vibe, you know, which, which was, like, what I was in and, yeah, you know, I think now I, I spent half the year in Colombia. I'm, like, eating fruit as I write, you know, like making fresh, making fresh smoothies, like and the I think I reach for a joke much more than I reach for like a, like a, like a knife. And that is partially like, like, literally, how physically comfortable I am as I write versus previously.

Traci Thomas 46:58

I love this for you, that sounds good. I mean, really good

Torrey Peters 47:02

for people who like my dark stories, I'm sorry. I

Traci Thomas 47:05

mean, I like the dark stories, but also like, I think maybe you should prioritize you over my personal enjoyment. Why Columbia? How did you end up going there? I

Torrey Peters 47:16

started going there my partner had a sabbatical, and and we went there during pandemic, and to Santa Marta on the on the Caribbean coast. And, you know, like, I don't have a good reason for loving it. I just got there, and I was like, I was like, I feel like this place is on the same wavelength as me, you know, like, or I'm on the same wavelength as it is probably the less egotistical way of saying, yeah. And so then I was like, that's like, let's go back. And then we went back, you know, for another winter and and more and more, I've just kind of been going down. And it feels really good, in a lot of ways, also, to, like, a little bit, be able to write about Americans and the trans context for America, outside of kind of, like the day to day bullshit, of like the news and like, actually being here, actually, yeah, you know, like, it's like, I'll never, you know, I'm not like, Oh, I'm gonna, you know, live forever in Colombia, or, like, you know, write in Spanish, or something like, I'm gonna write stuff that I've written. But to have that sort of mental space has has been really good. And, in fact, it's been interesting because, as I've been done, I've been reading more Latin American writers, and Latin American writers all American writers often, historically, have been writing, you know, through moments of repression. And they would do the same thing, you know, they'd go, they'd go abroad for a couple years, and they'd write about, you know, not in sort of like one to one way, but they'd write stories that were about repression in their own in their home in their own countries, while away, and that kind of like perspective that that offered and and, you know, it feels, it feels good to me to be able to step back and be able to see like, you know, I sometimes say that fiction is like pattern recognition, you Know, that like like that actually, there's like, so much going on then so diffuse in the connections between things and fiction is about like creating a story that sort of emulates the patterns and movements that are too big otherwise to capture, and in some ways, like being able to step back, you can start to see the larger patterns that you can't See when you're like, has your nose pressed up to, yeah, the situation

Traci Thomas 49:44

like, it's like, not a magic eye, it's like a quilt or something, yeah, it's like, you have to actually have the distance. It's like, yeah, exactly. So interesting. I love this. I

Torrey Peters 49:53

love, I like your metaphor. So

Traci Thomas 49:54

just build like, just, I'm just building on what you're laying down. Okay, um. Yeah, you didn't fully answer the part of the question that we care about most here, which is, like, writing, snacks and beverages? Oh yeah, you mentioned fruit. But like, I'm gonna need some detail.

Torrey Peters 50:09

I'm gonna tell you that there's a fruit somebody needs to figure out how to, how to import better to the United States. Is sabote, I think, sometimes called mamey. It is, is? It is orange. It looks like a sweet potato, okay? It's taste and it's like, kind of has a, like, a starchy consistency. But it's a fruit. It grows on a tree. Okay, tastes like the best milkshake you've ever had, and it is entirely its own flavor. Like, in the same way that, like, you know, if you have, like, a Jolly Rancher and there's like a cherry and there's a Yeah, Apple, right? Like, it's like, those are flavors that are just, like their own thing. It's

Traci Thomas 50:54

just cherry flavor. It's not cherry, it's like flavor. So cherry, yeah, that

Torrey Peters 50:58

is, like, it can be, like, distilled to a flavor, right, right, right,

Traci Thomas 51:01

right. So, like, how, how blue raspberry is just like blue flavor, like, it's just like the way that the color blue tastes.

Torrey Peters 51:07

But you have to, like, you know, it's its own world of flavor, yeah? You would never, you can create products in that world of flavor. You can have the original fruit in that world of flavor, but it's its own, own thing, yeah? And you can't really say like, oh, a cherry is a bit like a raspberry. People will be like, no, no. So these are separate worlds. Support day is its own separate world, but it's like a world that I think we should all visit more. I'm

Traci Thomas 51:33

looking it up right now. Oh, oh, okay. I I feel like I have seen this fruit before when I was in Colombia, yeah, this feels familiar to my eyes. Um, okay, you have officially answered the snack question.

Torrey Peters 51:48

It's available in Florida. I've had, okay, I was like, I, at one time I was in South Florida, and there was, like, somebody selling, like, popsicles on the side of the road. And one of the support a flavor, yeah, which I didn't know supported because they, I think they, they called me and, and someone was like, that's about a and I was like, I need it now. Like, like, you know, pulled the car over immediately, kind of thing. Usually

Traci Thomas 52:13

when someone answers with a fruit or vegetable as a snack that they eat, I shame them for that. But because you brought a unique fruit and gave a detailed explanation, including the word milkshake, you have passed the snacks and beverages. Question, it

Torrey Peters 52:29

is, it is absolutely, is a dessert, like it is? It is a luxury. You look you luxuriate in a supposed okay, I'm not. This is No. This is No, like I had a bean for a snack or something?

Traci Thomas 52:43

No, that would be immediately cut off. What's a word you can never spell correctly on the first try?

Torrey Peters 52:50

Weird, I mess up the Yeah, and I use that word a lot too. So I don't understand why. I don't just learn it, but I somehow it looks the same to me. It just looks Yeah, like, and if there's not, like, the red line underneath it, you'd never know. I would never know, yeah, and I know the rules about it, and everything just looks right

Traci Thomas 53:13

the more you're saying. And I'm like, trying to picture in my head, and now I don't know. I think it goes e first, yeah,

Torrey Peters 53:19

isn't it? I before E, except after C?

Traci Thomas 53:22

Well, now I don't know, but then now, which is weird,

Torrey Peters 53:25

right? Like, that's the rule, but maybe

Traci Thomas 53:27

no weird, yeah, but weird is different. It's e first. Okay, so weird breaks the rule. That is the rule, yes. Well, that's how you should remember weird is weird. Weird. It's not like normal

Torrey Peters 53:38

or whatever, E, except after C, and weird

Traci Thomas 53:43

and and whatever I'm thinking is wrong, correctly currently. Okay, I just have a few more questions for you, for people who love stag dance, what are some other books that you might recommend that are in conversation with what you did?

Torrey Peters 53:57

So I think you know what I'm what I was trying to do was a kind of, like, Americana thing. And I think that, like, you know, the references, there are these books that are that are a little, a little baggy, like, a little hanging out. And, you know, the sort of classic one is Moby Dick, you know, like, it's a book that's, like, it's written in a weird vernacular. And like, you just kind of have to, like, get into the idea of hanging out in that book. You know, I think that this is not a true grit, which most people don't read that book so

Traci Thomas 54:32

good. I read it last year for the first time. Loved it. Yeah, loved it.

Torrey Peters 54:40

That's another one that's just like, it's like, the pleasure that book is just like, hanging out with this character, who's and all of these characters are little like, they're they're not dumb, but they're like, have like, they're like, simple. They're simple. They have, like, there's like, a comic, yeah, there's a comic. Ass. Back to what are actually very, very dark stories. Like, true is a dark story.

Traci Thomas 55:04

It's a sad, like grief book that's like, cute and charming, like funny and charming, like I always say, like it was so lovely time. It was great

Torrey Peters 55:15

when she fell into the cave. That's no spoiler there. That happens, yeah, at any point,

Traci Thomas 55:23

yeah. Also, this book is like, so old, and there's been like, 17 movies. So if we don't know what True Grit is, yeah,

Torrey Peters 55:29

yeah, there you go. Like, so the tone, you know, of that, yeah, that, you know, there was, like, I actually

Traci Thomas 55:33

thought of True Grit as I was reading the bag dance story.

Torrey Peters 55:38

I love that. That makes me feel good. I mean, the other things that I think inspired me was Brief History of Seven Killings by Marlon James, where the story is nothing like that. But I, I really liked story. He was like, it's not exactly like Jamaican dialect. It's, it's something where he's like, it's, it's flavored by that. But I'm actually going to make it totally my own, and I'm going to, like, remix all of it and that, like, permission that I saw that like, because I initially started writing only, like, real longer words like that were, and I tried to, like, make everything like, you know, get caught on any anachronisms and stuff like that. And then I was like, why am I doing this, like Marlon James just did whatever he wanted. And it was like, great to read, like, we're not reading a history book here. We're reading fiction, like, let's just do whatever. It's fun. So I did that. And then, you know, and then I started thinking about that, and actually that, like, all of my favorite books are the do kind of voice are not they're not like, prestige, they're not super accurate. I mean, I thought about, like, blood meridian. And I was like, nobody on the on the border of Texas and Mexico is speaking in, like King James English, like the cadence of that, you know, but he just did it. And it kind of like worked. And so, like, learning to follow, like, what feels like, felt like it worked for me, you know, and knowing that, like that, those those books all have, like, a very specific reader, you know, yeah, and like, yeah. And just kind of to be like, this is going to be for for a reader who wants to come along on this journey. And though all those books were freeing for me, I would say, and therefore in conversation with them. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 57:22

I love that. Okay, just two more quick questions. One is, what's the next genre you want to write in? I

Torrey Peters 57:28

want to start writing a little bit more about like money and like the connections between like transness and politics out there. I mean, there's a weird way in which like transness right now is at the center of this political moment. Like, it's weird, you didn't choose it, right? Probably would rather not be here. But like, it's like, it's like, it is like, you know, this kind of right wing system has chosen transness to center and to make it this point. And it's like, and at some point, it's like, how's this working? You know that like that, like people who love crypto also love, you know, are obsessed with transness. And there's all these connections between these cultural forces around, you know, who has money, who has power? How these things flow? That I'm like, I feel the web, but I can't figure out the story that will hold that. And that is like, the thing I'm searching for is like, when that's what I mean political economy is like, Why? Why? Why transness now, right, right? And, and, and can we? Can we make it legible in fiction and story?

Traci Thomas 58:38

Oh, my God. Okay, well, I can't wait to read that. That sounds very, very me. Last question, if you could have one person dead or alive read this book? Who would you want it to be?

Torrey Peters 58:50

I would say Emily Dickinson, Oh, okay.

Traci Thomas 58:53

I don't think anyone's ever said her before. That surprised me

Torrey Peters 58:56

that I said that looking out the window, and I gonna say it? I think I'm gonna say it. Yeah, you said it, you know. I just think that she's also very, like, playful with language and, like, does that kind of, like Americana thing? And I, you know, I think she had like, a kind of, like, I could be totally wrong with my kind of vaguely remember that she had like a kind of Bush thing going and like, there's, like, she's never married, and there's stuff with gender going on, and it was kind of of her era, like that I was writing into. And so I actually think, I mean, probably she would just be, like, I don't know what this is, and I don't care to or something, and move on. But, um,

Traci Thomas 59:36

yeah, well, her reaction is

Torrey Peters 59:38

not important. Yeah, whatever. I don't care what you think I'm like. Jenkinson, yeah,

Traci Thomas 59:42

I just sent you the art. Yeah? Just blurb this, please. Yeah,

Torrey Peters 59:48

you have a job to do. So, yeah, that's who I that's what I

Traci Thomas 59:53

was gonna do. I love it. Okay, everybody, go out in the world. Get your copy of stag dance. You can get it right? You get books you already talked about the audiobook. The narrator, at least for the stag dance story, fantastic, but there's three other narrators. So for my audiobook, people, I I'm gonna vouch for this one. I read a lot of it off the page. Vouch for it off the page. It's so good. It's such an interesting dive into genre and gender. Thank you so much for being here, Tory,

Torrey Peters 1:00:20

thank you for having this is really, really delightful. Oh, yay,

Traci Thomas 1:00:24

everyone else, we will see you in the stacks.

All right, y'all that does it for us this week. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Torrey Peters for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Aaron Richards for helping to make this conversation possible. Remember our book club pick this month is they were her property by Stephanie e Jones Rogers, which we will discuss on Wednesday, March 26 with Tempe Denton. Hearst, if you love this show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks andjoin the stacks pack and check out my substack at tracithomas.substack.com. Make sure you're subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, please, please, please leave us a rating and a review for more from the stacks. Follow us on social media @thestackspod on Instagram, threads and Tiktok, and @thestackspod_ on Twitter, and you can check out our website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight, and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Megan Caballero
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Ep. 364 They Were Her Property by Stephanie E. Jones-Rogers — The Stacks Book Club (Tembe Denton-Hurst)
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Ep. 362 Colonialism Is Not an Abstraction with Omar El Akkad