Ep. 325 It Ends with Us by Colleen Hoover — The Stacks Book Club (Melissa Mogollon)

Written By Lauren Tyree
Ep. 325 It Ends with Us by Colleen Hoover — The Stacks Book Club (Melissa Mogollon)

For this edition of The Stacks Book Club, Melissa Mogollon returns to dissect the popular romantic novel It Ends with Us by Colleen Hoover. We unpack the book itself - its writing style and depiction of domestic violence - along with the public perception of its author. We also discuss the upcoming film adaptation starring Blake Lively, and so much more. There are lots of spoilers in this one.

Be sure to listen to the end of today’s episode to find out what our July book club pick will be.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon.

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TRANSCRIPT
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Traci Thomas 0:08

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Traci Thomas and it is June Book Club day. And we are discussing the much-talked-about, extremely controversial pick It Ends with Us by Colleen Hoover. I am joined again by debut author, Melissa Mogollon, whose book Oye came out earlier this year. Today, Melissa and I try to tackle all of the topics that come up when reading It Ends with Us. We discuss domestic violence representation, if this book is in fact a romance, why we think Colleen Hoover is as famous as she is, the film adaptation and a lot more. There are a ton of spoilers on this episode, so please do not listen unless you have read the book or love a spoiler. Make sure to listen through to the end of today's episode to find out what our July book club selection will be. Okay, now it's time for my spoiler-filled conversation with Melissa Mogollon about It Ends with Us by Colleen Hoover.

Okay, everybody, I have just logged on the Google Meet with author Melissa Mogollon who wrote Oye. It is The Stacks Book Club day. We are going to discuss It Ends with Us by Colleen Hoover. She and I have not spoken a single word about this book yet. We literally just logged on. I said I'm gonna start recording right now. So first, before we say anything else, Melissa, welcome back.

Melissa Mogollon 3:28

Thank you so much. Pleasure to be here.

Traci Thomas 3:30

So excited. Second thing I will say we are going to spoil this book. I know for some of you, you're literally only here to hear I spoil this book, you have no plans of reading it. I know for some of you, you are CoHo fans, and you are excited to hear what other people think you're gonna be disappointed. And I know for some of you, you generously read along with us, and I thank you for coming on this CoHo journey. But that being said, we always start here. Just generally. What did you think of this book, Melissa?

Melissa Mogollon 4:00

It made me really sad. For reasons we can unpack, but I will say it was a rollercoaster. I feel like I went through all those stages of grief. I like anger, denial, acceptance, clarity. And then at the end, I was just like, I'm sad for a lot of women. So that this that this touched a lot of people in that the story resonated with them.

Traci Thomas 4:25

Okay, we are gonna talk about why this book, Colleen Hoover in general. Here's my general thoughts. I shockingly did not hate this as much as I thought I was going to. I thought I was going to come into this book and be like, burn it all down. I burned a lot of it down for sure. Like there was fire okay. There was fire. But like, I didn't hate it. I didn't like it. I will not read another Colleen Hoover book likely in my life. But I was generally pleased, I think that, not pleased, I was generally okay, I survived the domestic violence piece of this book, we will spend a lot of time on, because not only do I have questions, thoughts, doubts and feelings, but also there is a lot of online chatter about it. That I think is maybe unfair, a little bit. So we're gonna get into that. We will talk about some of the storytelling elements. We will also hopefully talk about, like why Colleen Hoover is so big, how she is so big. How could this be possible? Obviously, you've never read any other of her books, right? No? No, me neither. So we're basing all of these opinions on her total career off of this one book. For people who have not read the book, let me give you a quick plot summary. Just the general premise. Lily Blossom Bloom. The names in this book, holy shit the names. Lily, Lily Blossom Bloom is a 23 year old gal, who lives in Boston. She's from Maine. Her father recently died. She gave the eulogy. Oh my God, it was so crazy. You've never heard anything so crazy. Her mother's still around. She lives in Boston. She works at a marketing firm but she loves flowers. So because her name is Lily Blossom Bloom; how could she not?. She meets a guy on a rooftop he is named. Ryle. Kincaid, Ryle Kincaid, they start flirting on this rooftop. He's hot. He's a neurosurgeon. He's a neurosurgeon, resident actually, which we should talk about. And they start playing this game called Naked Truths where they tell each other just like the truth about each other about what they're thinking. They start dating, obviously, because this is a romance, which we shall talk about, and we learn about Lily's backstory, which is that her dad is abusive to her mom, her next door neighbor is actually a child, an 18 year old boy who goes to high school who is squatting in the house next door because he's been kicked out by his parents, but they refer to him as homeless. The homeless guy, constant homeless guy energy, which cringe. His name is Atlas Corrigan, like the fucking names. That's, that's her first love. They fuck. But only the day she turns 16 Because the age of consent in Maine is 16. I looked it up. I was like, why are we so concerned about her 16th birthday, then rial becomes abusive, just like her dad. So that's where I'll leave you. That's the premise of the book.

Melissa Mogollon 8:04

You forgot something.

Traci Thomas 8:05

What did I forget?

Melissa Mogollon 8:06

Ellen DeGeneres.

Traci Thomas 8:08

Oh my god. Ellen DeGeneres is the main character of this book. But offstage, we never get to hear from Ellen directly. But Lily in high school, writes a journal. They're called the Ellen diaries because she writes them to Ellen DeGeneres. Because the Ellen Show, she loves Ellen Show, and wow, I hate this choice so much. I did love The View in high school and did watch it everyday. Yeah, so like, I get it. Like there's parts of this book that are so bad and embarrassing, but also like, No, I remember that from high school. So like, as much as I hated reading those passages. I was like, well, I could see a high school or being in love with Ellen or like upset. But you're right. I did forget that.

Melissa Mogollon 9:05

It was it was really hard to continue to not interrupt you every sentence that you were doing that stops us with my reaction. Incredible job.

Traci Thomas 9:13

You can always interrupt me. I mean, let's just let's just start with the thing that was the most difficult for me to get my head around which was the names.

Melissa Mogollon 9:22

Lily Bloom Lily Blossom Bloom, so much to say there.

Traci Thomas 9:26

Say something!

Melissa Mogollon 9:29

Um, what was your mom's name? Did we do we ever know- Jenny?

Traci Thomas 9:33

I think her mom's name was Jenny. Jenny. Yeah, we found out like on the first after the first page.

Melissa Mogollon 9:39

Something that Colleen Hoover. I don't know if it was intentional but like did so brilliantly as I felt almost like carpet-bombed by the first chapter, it was just like the names, the plot, it was just so much that I began to suspend, or I began to accept so much, but then it almost like got even more unreal and So I was like, Okay, my line for reality kept-

Traci Thomas 10:05

Yes, I accepted a lot more than I normally would. Okay. The mother was Jenny and the father was Andrew. And Rachel siblings were Alyssa or Elisa. I couldn't tell because her nickname was like Alyssa, but I wasn't sure it was Alyssa or Lisa. I don't know. Yeah. Anyways, I was calling her Alyssa. And then the brother is Emerson. The so the first chapter is fucking wild. I mean, the first sentence starts with a line about suicide. Right? Like, it's just like, I think the first note I took was, okay, I guess we're doing this. Yeah. Like I literally, I said, Um, excuse me suicide on page, page one, paragraph one. Wow. Okay, let's go. That was my first note, just like, here we are.

Melissa Mogollon 10:51

And before I even started this, I just did a slight brief skim on Wikipedia. And like, who Colleen Hoover was because I really was approaching this text with like, zero preconceived notions. I just knew she was like, extremely famous. And then I saw it on her computer. She says, this was the hardest book she ever had to write. And I was like, Whoa, why? Well, I thought it was just a romance. And so I was like, once we got to the domestic abuse, or that start stuff started, like really taking shape. I was my reading. I thought this was like a romance book. So that like the DV completely caught me off guard, but like, when we meet rial, like first and they're so taken by each other for some reason, which of course, I bought into it, but like, it doesn't make any sense. He's, like, beating a chair. He's like kicking it in.

Traci Thomas 11:36

Yeah. Ryle is a walking red flag. And so here's what I will give her credit for. I will give Colleen Hoover a lot of credit for making Ryle attractive to her audience for so long. Like I was rooting for them, even as I'm reading like some of the red flags, not when he starts hitting her, right. Like, as soon as he like, breaks the casserole dish and like, punches her in the face and knocks her down. Like, yeah, like, you know, I was with like, I think about 100 pages, and I texted my friends and I was like, I get it. I'm going I'm like, This is so bad. It's good. Like, I was like I'm here. Once the domestic violence comes in. I sort of felt like I had to make a choice about what was happening to me as like, I sort of was like, I can't go with this. Like, I can't enjoy this in the same way that I was enjoying. Like, I'm dating a neurosurgeon, and he wears scrubs and he has the best hands in Boston, right like I just couldn't. There's a lot of dancing there. I just couldn't, I couldn't enjoy it. And that same way, which, but but to the point like she makes Ryle seem attractive enough that I did want it to work out with them and like before he ever hits her or anything. I was rooting for him over Atlas. Like I was out on Atlas. I'm not into dirty people. I gotta be honest.

Melissa Mogollon 12:55

I was a big Atlas fan. I'm like I'm still rooting for Atlas. I loved him from the jump. I never really liked Ryle but I was really big team Atlas. But can we talk about Boston? Like why Boston? Did you envision everyone in this world with like really heavy Boston accents. Like that was another thing that was-

Traci Thomas 13:12

No, because no one was from Boston.

Melissa Mogollon 13:14

But their surrounding world, like what they hear at dinner with like, everywhere they go, they're in Boston, which is hysterical to me.

Traci Thomas 13:21

Right, I just thought Boston was a weird choice. Because it all it needed to be was she's from a small town. She moved to the nearest city. So it was interested that she picked Boston. I don't know if Colleen Hoover has a Boston thing. She's from Texas, Colleen Hoover. And I thought, like, couldn't have done this in Houston. Because Houston also has a big medical city like Boston is like known for its doctors. So I was like, Okay, that makes sense. But like, so is Houston like Houston County Medical Centers. I think Atlanta is like the baby birthing capital of the country. Like there are other places that have a lot of medical facilities.

Melissa Mogollon 13:57

And Boston is like, famously extremely expensive. And so yeah, like opening up a brick and mortar flower shop in your mid 20s.

Traci Thomas 14:07

Early 20s, she's 23.

Melissa Mogollon 14:10

And then Atlas like is able to, I guess he's he's not coming from generational poverty, but like he's definitely coming from like, like zero where his family abandoned him. And so he's able to like, open up his own restaurant restaurant, and then the best friend like her husband, also came from nothing and is a billionaire and is able to own it. It's just so much money.

Traci Thomas 14:31

It's like look, you're all rich, but they also all hate being rich. Like there's like all those lines where Marshall Marshalls the brother in law, or the Ulisses husband. Marshall is like do you sound like a rich girl? I'm like, You just told me you make $6 million a year like you don't get to hate rich people. Like you're rich. Your wife talks about we have people for that every other page. Like oh my gosh. I mean, that doesn't bother me if you own it. If it's like oh, They're like, we're rich. Like we worked hard we got here we're rich, but like, also, what not doesn't make sense to me about Alyssa is that she's never worked a day in her life. But also she's not rich. But she never worked a day in her life. So how could she have gotten to being an adult without ever having to work? And also, how is she the best most like disciplined, hard working employee ever and she's never had a job like she was just born to work.

Melissa Mogollon 15:28

That's probably the biggest pothole in the whole book.

Traci Thomas 15:30

Alyssa is no Alyssa is a huge red flag in this book for me. I hate Alyssa. Because not only does she have this like insane work ethic hates rich people, but it's filthy, filthy, rich, but has like money people for that. She also enables Ryle, constantly, she's the reason we find out what happens with the brother. She's the reason he like she supports him buying an apartment for his wife and him to live in without mentioning it to the wife. That is abusive behavior. Her best friend.

Melissa Mogollon 16:07

I think I threw the book at that scene when he's like here are the keys, I'm like no no no.

Traci Thomas 16:12

And she's the one who's like, come over. She's like, come over, I want to shop furniture with you. And then it's like, Come downstairs to this apartment. And then it's like, oh, surprise, my brother bought you an apartment that you didn't ask for? It's so manipulative.

Melissa Mogollon 16:28

Do women want that? Like, do women want that from men? I don't know.

Traci Thomas 16:32

I don't. I don't I would like to pick where I'm living. Thank you. I'd like to know. But also I mean, that that's like a red flag of him. Right? He's controlling her. He's she it's her apartment they're living in. He wants to be in control of the space. She has nowhere else to go now, right? Like it's like, typical domestic violence, whatever. But we have to go back to the first chapter. Yeah, sorry. So they have this game, this maker truths game. Which the moment I read that line, I started a tally of how many times Naked Truth comes up in the book after the first chapter. So I gave her all the references in the first chapter, but I just knew I was like, this is going to come up 22 times 22 times they reference mica truth. Are you ready for a Naked Truth? Like Raul we have to talk, naked truth time. Like I can't wait to see the movie. I can't wait to the movie they're gonna it's the whole script is just gonna be naked truth time.

Melissa Mogollon 17:38

Like they're gonna imagine them in court over custody their child and then be like now for naked truth time.

Traci Thomas 17:44

Judge, when we were doing Naked Truth time. This is what she told me. But it is a genius storytelling convention for a first chapter of a book because you just get all that backstory out. She's like, my dad's abusive. This thing. I mean, he mentioned that he has a patient who just died who's like a kid whose brother shot him and then she's like, could you imagine being that brother and on page 18, I took a note I said, Ryle killed his brother. I said, Rails brother is dead and Ryle was there. I didn't know it was the exact same thing. But I literally was like 18, riled killed his brother, his brother, but she sets it up. I mean, the foreshadowing in this book.

Melissa Mogollon 18:27

I know, also, in this first chapter is when, which felt so out of her character once I knew more of Lily, but when she was trying to be provocative, and tells Raul like, I've only had one night when, when when I said in my life, this is like how the audiobook is boys. Yeah. Now, I've only had one nightstand in my life. It was the homeless person. I was like, why didn't you actually, first of all, he wasn't called. It was like, it was experienced. He was squatting like you said, Yeah, it sounds like this man was like an adult on the street or a child on the street like his mom had recently abandoned he was trying to finish school. It was just it felt so weird. There's so many shocks like as we're saying in this first chapter.

Traci Thomas 19:06

But was that a one night stand? You were friends with him and hung out and made out- you were in a relationship with a homeless person. Yeah, if we're gonna use code like okay, let's just talk about Atlas for a second. We'll come back to the to the DV so Atlas is the boy next door but he's homeless. was just so fun. Yeah, that was I think that was what pissed me off about the homeless stuff is that she was writing about it. Like it was like Ha Ha he was homeless. And like, it just doesn't make sense. With the story at all like that tone like Lily who's our narrator she it's you know, it's first person right first person Yeah, first person. She would never trivialize his experience, but the way that it's written it's like, yeah, I like it's even on the First first perception when she's talking about her dad's funeral. And she says the way she says, you know, whatever my dad was the mayor, husband of the highly adored Jenny Bloom, and then father of Lily Bloom that strange girl with the erratic red hair who once fell in love with a homeless guy and brought great shame upon her entire family. Like let's just like that's me.

Melissa Mogollon 20:21

Yeah, it was so weird and the way we characterize lily in this first chapter, I did find so confusing because I wasn't picturing her as this like person that Raul Kincaid would see on a rooftop and just be like, I haven't stopped thinking about you since because you I was so taken by her beauty like she characterize yourself as this like scrappy girl. And so I was really confused. Blink lively is playing her on the show.

Traci Thomas 20:44

Like, I had Blake Lively in my head. But have you seen the pictures of her? They have her looking ragamuffin.

Melissa Mogollon 20:55

I know. Actually. No, they didn't just drop the traiiler. I think they dropped in like, I don't know when but I saw the trailer recently. And she looked hotter. She looked better. It wasn't like, weird hair wig going on.

Traci Thomas 21:06

Yeah, because they had her dressed frumpy.

Melissa Mogollon 21:10

I'm like, this is actually how I pictured Lily Bloom in the book.

Traci Thomas 21:13

You pictured her frumpy?

Melissa Mogollon 21:14

I pictured her frumpy based on her own self perception how she's describing herself and whatever, so I was like, really like this like neurosurgeon hot in the city. Like he's like, hasn't seen a bunch of girls that he would find hotter by his definition, right?

Traci Thomas 21:31

Yeah, yeah. I pictured her hot because I knew Blake Lively was playing fair. I happen to love Serena from Gossip Girl with all my heart. Really hot. Yeah, she's so hot. I didn't see the pictures till after I finished reading and I was like, Oh, bummer for me. I was expecting hot. And I know people on Tik Tok feel that when people have tick tock we're like freaking out about it. But more just because I want my romance films and television to be just hot people looking hot. I don't want them to be like, I don't care.

Melissa Mogollon 22:02

Especially with this like if I'm in this genre and in this kind of world that's like my reality stars. I need them to look like straight off the streets of LA.

Traci Thomas 22:09

Yes, I want hot, hot. I want to be with you. All of you. I want to be with the men. I want to be with the women. I want to be with them. I want to be with Jenny blue. Bye guys. Like everybody so Jenny bloom better be hot. Now Jenny Bloom is played by a really well known theatre actress who's actually a fucking amazing actress. I'm excited about that.

Melissa Mogollon 22:26

She's hilarious. Is it Jenny?

Traci Thomas 22:30

That's Alyssa. Jenny Slates playing Alyssa. Oh, okay. Got it. Um, I was just talking about Atlas but I can't even remember.

Melissa Mogollon 22:38

You hate Atlas. I see it in your face. You hate him.

Traci Thomas 22:40

You know what I do. He's too I don't- It's too sweet. It's too sweet for me. I'm just not into it. I'm not into the knight in shining armor shit. And that's what he is. But also I just the whole like we watch Ellen together that whole thing was an awareness for play. And yeah, a big turn off for me also children like I'm not into 19 year old boys. You know what your 18 year old boy so like to me I'm just like, I'm not into this story when he shows up in the real world. I think the note I took took was atlases here. Let's fucking go so like I was juiced to see Atlas as an adult. But Atlas as a teenager all of the unlike then he told them the girls and I'm like I don't Boston better Boston like no, I'm also I envisioned him as being like an extremely pale white boy which is also a huge turnoff for me. Did you see the movie challengers? I haven't seen it but I know that pass Okay, yeah, so the one I actually like the extremely pale like high in that movie but the other one the dirty one who played Prince Charles in the Queen crown Okay, so I was sort of envisioning for for a while okay she is also described are for Atlas and he has also described in the movie as like being stinky and stinky is just a such a turn off for me and they were like, Oh, he smells which I get because he's living in a hole like I understand why but like, again, I just want hot people and stinky is not hot for me. So I was like oh Atlas I don't like you. Anyways, so his his stepdad is abusive. We find this out this is out of order but we find out his stepdad is abusive. His mom kicks them out because she's trying to preserve that relationship. He goes and squats at the house next door that's abandoned because he wants to finish school and we get this okay. Let's talk about this. Colleen Hoover talks about how she doesn't teach and her books and she's just here to entertain but there are so many moments where she editorialize is something like political in like the preachy just teach easiest ways? And one of that is the homeless diatribe that Lily when she like asks acts Atlas of his own rightness yeah she i mean i You can't people at home can say but I took I underlined so many things. She's like, Ellen. So this is all to Ellen. There were, there were three shelters that a 20 mile radius of our town, but two of them were for battered women. The other one was a homeless shelter. But they only had a few beds, and it was far away for him to walk if he wanted to go to school every day. Plus, you have to wait in a long line and try to get a bed. He said he tried at once. But he feels safer in that old house than he did at a shelter. Right, which is like Colleen Hoover's like I did research about shelters and people, they're not comfortable.

Melissa Mogollon 25:29

Yes. And I will push back and say, maybe we're being generous by giving the read that she was aiming to educate. I think she was defending it was like, if you reader are curious as to why this child is- You know, in this situation, this is why he's not in all these other scenarios that you're probably thinking.

Traci Thomas 25:46

Right. But to me that's like such editorializing like why does the character write this, Like, it's like the longest journal entry. I mean, it goes on for pages and pages.

Melissa Mogollon 25:54

I mean, that's what the Ellen diary is for. It's like, she created this technique to fill in holes for the reader that like wouldn't come up organically in these scenes. And so it's really it wasn't, I mean, it's similar to what I did in my own book, it just, you give a space for like the character's thoughts to exist, but it gives you this already embedded space and put so much like build something. Yeah, things for the reader.

Traci Thomas 26:16

To like fill in holes. I mean, this whole section ends with with I thought homeless people were homeless because they were lazy, or drug addicts or just didn't want to work like other people. And then later in the paragraph just says they're homeless because there isn't enough help to go around. It's like Lily then becomes like, obsessed with people donating to charity. If you do not donate to charity, you can't know Lily.

Melissa Mogollon 26:42

Oh, my God, I forgot.

Traci Thomas 26:45

She's like, my dad was a bad person because he didn't donate to charity. I was like, No, your dad was a bad person cuz he was beating the shit and raping his wife, like baby girl he could have been donating to charity still would have been bad. Yeah, like, yeah, it's but like, this becomes she asks rial she asks Atlas. She asks Alyssa, yeah, I'm like, Well, what do you donate to Lily? Yeah, sign me up for your charity girl. You don't know nothing?

Melissa Mogollon 27:08

She has this very eminent it continues to the whole book, this like very childlike way of looking at the world. And I do think like, that is one appeal to a lot of readers like, I think, yeah, almost like they. They like when things are black and white, even though so much of this book is actually about nuance. And I think it the message hit with a lot of people because it was like, you know, people aren't just bad. Sometimes bad people will do good things, and good people do bad things. But I do think like, so much of what people liked about Lilly specifically, because I've seen a lot of people like love her story. And that was that. She almost like had this very strict moral compass that helped her guide through.

Traci Thomas 27:48

Yeah, the complexity with Lily really isn't there. There's complexity, I think, with her in the sense that like she's trying to figure things out. So you get her going back and forth. But she's pretty clean and clear and under control. Like she's pretty like, she's not fucking up. We're going to do the domestic violence thing. So before I ever read this book, I knew this book had to do with domestic violence, but I didn't know how or why. And what I had seen on the internet was people say like, this book is horrible. It romanticizes domestic violence, it glorifies it, whatever. I also had seen that she had written the book about her parents. So without knowing anything about the book, besides those things, that's how I sort of entered the book. And I'm curious if you felt like this book romanticized domestic violence.

Melissa Mogollon 28:52

I wouldn't think that's the word I would use. I think it's actually a pretty realistic take of some relationships, like interpret, like, I've heard the term for when it's your close partner.

Traci Thomas 29:04

Intimate partner violence.

Melissa Mogollon 29:05

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Where like, and I think she actually staged it really clearly where it was like the first time it happened, she told herself if it happened again, it wouldn't do it. Second time it happened. She was like, whoa, what am I going to do took a really long time, you know, we add the element of the child. And then ultimately, she comes to this epiphany of this is what I want to do. So I don't think she actually glamorize it or romanticized it. Megan, I can just answer that and we can talk later. Okay.

Traci Thomas 29:35

I actually agree with you. I was surprised by I think how well it's actually handled considering the genre, the book, like the writer, I don't know that like if this is literary fiction. I don't know that it's held to the same standard that wrote like romances, right? Like I think we all know that romance is a genre that people really should on. They expect it to like in a lot of key Since people read romance to escape, so they expect it to be easy to consume or like, fun to consume, like, it's a kind of, you know, we talked about Grey's Anatomy and a lot you and I, and like, part of what's great about Grey's Anatomy is that even when it's difficult stuff, it's easy to consume. Right? Like it's it goes down easily. And I think that is like why a lot of people like romance, that's what I like best. When I read romance, I'm like, I just want it to go down easy, even if it's like a grief, romance or whatever, I still want it to go down smooth. And so I think given whereas like with literary fiction, I think the expectation is that it's going to be difficult or challenging. You have to think a lot. And so I think given the constraints of like, this is romance. And there's an expectation from the reader. I actually thought she handled it really well. I thought she was going to end up with rial I thought she was going to forgive him. And so I was like, Holy fucking shit. I am not because I had heard she romanticizes it. So in my mind, yeah. And it's a romance. And that was the central love story. So I just thought, like, Okay, this is where we ended up. But I, I didn't hate the domestic violence representation. Yeah, I think we see this woman who loves this man who is a monster to her. And like, we see him be charming. We see him be handsome. Because he wear scrubs. We see him be like charming to the sister and to her to Lily's Mom, we see him have red flags, we see him fuckup we see him be manipulative, like, I think we get a very good picture of rial is not a good person for Lily to be with because he's not a good person, for anyone to be with because he has issues. Yeah, I think there are parts where she sort of for forgives him a little bit, too much. Like she, she's generous with his problems, like there's a part where Lily is like, he can't control himself. And I didn't love that, because actually, we've seen him control himself with everyone else in the book. He's not violent with anyone else. He is not like he doesn't lose his temper with anyone else. Right. And like, I think I think that's a great, also, like depiction of people who are in these kinds of relationships where they make these excuses for people. Yeah, but I don't particularly like that excuse. Because I think that that's something that a reader can read and be like, yeah, he can control himself. And don't think and not think critically about that. And to me, I'm just like, Well, no, he can he's a fucking neurosurgeon. Like, is he beating up his patients? Yeah. Is he beating up like, anytime he has a bad outcome? Yeah, beating up a chair. Fine. But like your girlfriend, maybe not.

Melissa Mogollon 32:38

Yeah, yeah. That's my, that's mostly my beef with the domestic abuses. There were so many moments as a reader before we even got to the DV part where I was like, this is not someone I'd want dating someone I love for reasons like we haven't even gotten there. And it was fine if Lilly hadn't seen it yet, because the whole point of the book is her arc and her growth. But I have wished at the end when she like arrive to the space of this is not the way I want to be treated. That maybe just like one paragraph one of like a few things that she said you wish you would have noticed in the beginning that she was actually charmed by but really, that was a red flag.

Traci Thomas 33:11

Yes, I agree. Because also, it's not like the book is short. It's almost 400 pages she and she has all these editorializing to homeless. Yeah, like she could have made space for Lily to sort of have this moment. We get to see Lily be a strong woman air quotes, but I would have liked to hear Lily say like, I'm a strong woman. Like I listened to Beyonce. I love it here!

Melissa Mogollon 33:37

Just keep swimming.

Traci Thomas 33:38

Yeah. Oh my god. I actually just watched that this weekend with my kids. They really liked Finding Nemo.

Melissa Mogollon 33:42

It's a great movie.

Traci Thomas 33:44

I love Finding Nemo. But yeah, I don't think that the domestic violence representation was glorifying or romanticizing. I had some like little issues with it, like we just said, but the outrage around it. I found that to be very interesting, because I don't I love to be outraged. I maybe it maybe it was so big that it tampered my own outrage about it. But like, I just, she doesn't end up with him. She is able to set clear boundaries, she was able to get out of the way. And I think the other part that people have questions about, which is that why would she let Ryle be alone with their kid, however, in the author's own at the end, Colleen Hoover says this is sort of like my story. And I was raised around my dad, and he beat up my mom, but he was never violent with me or my sisters. And so I think, you know, she's telling one story, and it sounds like that's a story that she knew and felt like it was possible to be an abusive husband and not be an abusive dad in that way. So I wouldn't have as I was reading the book, I was like, why are you leaving? But why would you do that? Like, why are you alone? But I think like, I can't hate it. I don't I don't like it but I can't hate it and I I understand that some people are abusive to their spouses and not to their children, physically, at least. We don't know what happens in 20 years when, Emerson Dory Kincaid.

Melissa Mogollon 35:09

That's that's a violence, that name. I do. I do think the the big major thing for me is like, the attempted like sexual assault was like, yes, no, like, she does talk about how she can't be in the room with him. She's afraid of him like she and you know, he magically disappears to another country for a long time, because he has he wants to give her space. But I do feel like that level of like, intentional cruelty and yeah, islands. That was really different than we see him like blackout anger and accidentally push her around. Like, that was a premeditated act he was going to commit. And so I feel like that was an opportunity where like, things could have felt differently, but it didn't it felt like she got pushed again or-

Traci Thomas 35:55

Right. And like, I think even for me even more than that, it was the biting of her shoulder. That was where I was like, that's a fucking monster.

Melissa Mogollon 36:07

Yeah. That's, like, you don't want your kid around that, you know.

Traci Thomas 36:14

Yeah, I mean, again, I would not have left my kid with that person. I'm also very petty and mean. And I mean, I also let's be honest, I also would have had an abortion, I would have.

Melissa Mogollon 36:27

Oh, yes. That's another thing like actually seeing through the pregnancy felt so weird for me, based on the mental space she was in when she finds out.

Traci Thomas 36:34

Yes. And I think also like, to me that had to do with audience, right. Like, I think Colleen Hoover is aware, because this is like one of her middle books. I think her first book came out in 2012. She's not hugely famous, like she is now at this point. But she has an audience like she thinks her cohorts and the acknowledgement. So like, there are people reading this book. So she must know that abortion is not on the table, because there's also a part right before Ryle, and Lily got married and they're on the plane to Vegas. And they're going through their like list of things like we have to do this. We can have a kid blah, blah, blah. And one of the things is he says, I don't care if you vote Democrat, Republican or independent, I just care that you vote. And that felt very much like koho writing to audience and I felt that with the with the abortion, like it just never was on the table. There was never even a moment of like, do I want to have this person's kid? And I think that's got to be the audience.

Melissa Mogollon 37:35

Yeah. I also wonder if like, that was a decision around Boston to just like a city, beloved by potentially her readership. I don't know.

Traci Thomas 37:44

Yeah. Well, I mean, Boston. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have no idea. But yeah. Anyways, I would have aborted the baby, there would have been no question about having to be around that person.

Melissa Mogollon 37:56

Or like it, no one in the hospital offered. Like, you know, there were so many opportunities where options could have been presented. Yeah. Like they offered her a rape kit.

Traci Thomas 38:06

And they, yes, they did. And she turned it down. But so he didn't rape her. Is that what we're supposed to believe?

Melissa Mogollon 38:11

He didn't, he didn't.

Traci Thomas 38:13

How do we know it, though? That's my take too. But like it was unclear.

Melissa Mogollon 38:18

She says it to someone. She's like, No, no, he didn't like, he wanted.

Traci Thomas 38:23

Didn't she black out and like, wake up? She says it in that scene with the rape kit. But he also told her that she fell down the stairs multiple times before he admitted that he pushed her like, yeah, she was blocked out. I don't know. I'm gonna choose to believe that he didn't, but also I'm actually really gonna choose sleep that he did because I want to see the worst in everyone. Okay, Emerson has the name. So Alyssa has a baby and names it right leave with any extra aid because she wants to name it after a while. And after the after the second DV moment where he pushes her down the stairs. Alyssa gets involved because she is an enabler and fuck her. Even if people like her. I don't I don't care if Jenny slates playing her. She'll make her lovable but don't don't buy it. She's bad. She is like you need to tell her about Emerson which is their brother. And the story is that they were playing in the garage. There was a gun rifle shot the brother by accident, didn't know it was loaded. very tragic story. very tragic story. It comes out after this as a way for him to be like, I can't control my anger. Sometimes I just get so upset. I lash out. I'm in therapy. Okay, great. Not working, get a new therapist, um, but also now you need to feel bad for me and Lily does and she's like, I don't know. He's trying so she takes him back after that the second time because of the fact that and he says you know, she's says, You need to walk away if I tell you to walk away and he's like I will and then then something happens where he does walk away and then the next time he bites her, and then they name their baby Emerson, after the dead brother, Dory, after Finding Nemo, and then Kincaid they give the dad's last name. I don't know, if I knew that my the father of my child had a triggering past that was unpredictable if I would put that trauma on my unborn baby. Like that feels so loaded for baby Emerson Dory And Emmy Dory. Also they call her me or Emma. Just like Emmy Dory, what is wrong with you people? Are names just a joke to Colleen Hoover?

Melissa Mogollon 40:45

Yes. I didn't put two and two together until you just sent it that like the name can be incredibly triggering to Ryle that this is apparently the source of all his anger, which I don't believe not understand the connection to at all. So Wow.

Traci Thomas 41:00

It's just a lot to that little baby girl. She's already born into a lot. Sarah would have been lovely name. Name her Jenny after her mother.

Melissa Mogollon 41:10

She's like where did my name come from? And they're like, well, your father accidentally shot and killed his younger brother. It was really horrible. It kind of defined and, you know, broke his psyche. And he was unable to have any relationship afterward. And so we named-

Traci Thomas 41:24

Including with me because he used to throw me down the stairs and hit me and he hit me really hard and tried to rape me. But no, we love the name. It's a cute name, isn't it honey? You can we can call you Emma or me. So cute. Sorry. Sorry. Okay, I have to vent about a doctor thing which you will appreciate because you have seen Grey's Anatomy. Yeah, well, we meet rial. He is finishing up his residency in neurosurgery. Later in the book, approximately six to eight months later. He is solo surgery in a fucking separation of two conjoined twins at the brain. And he's like, I have the best hands in Boston. I like my guy. You became a doctor six weeks ago. Yeah, they're letting you just do this by yourself. No fucking chance. Okay, I am married to an actual doctor, a human doctor who has been practicing post residency since 2016. Okay, they didn't let that guy, husband, that guy. Do solo. Anything for like two years, almost like you don't do that. And it really made me mad because he could have just been a doctor. Why was your resident anyways? Why did we need that pop point? Also, you're not the best fucking doctor in Boston. My guy. You're 24 Or no, he's 29. Like you just got here. Why?

Melissa Mogollon 42:55

Why were the ages chosen that we Why was only 23. Like, why was why they're in their 20s?

Traci Thomas 43:02

I don't know. And also, I mean, maybe she was in her 20s Because I sort of bought her being in her 20s Because I was like, Oh, she likes this older guy. This is like her first big relationship since Atlas. And she's like buying in to this whole thing. Like, oh, I have to get married. Like, I feel like it's right. I mean, not exactly. I don't fully buy it. But I'm like, okay, maybe she's so young. She's so excited. She swept off her feet. But what I honestly I should do the math. I don't even know if you can become a brain surgeon fully with in like, because I think you have to do a fellowship. Probably like, like, I don't think it's just like, and it was like, Oh, I'm at the end of my two years. I'm like your two year residency? No, you're not. I think that residency is like six years. It's long.

Melissa Mogollon 43:44

And it's like I want tell me about your hostel. Like I was like, Who are you? Who are you in the trenches with, like, tell us that? I want like some weird cheating scandals.

Traci Thomas 43:54

One of the coworkers. Yeah, I needed more. I wish we met his friends. Like that was a less as also the surprise pregnancy. It's a romance trope, I guess. And it's not for me. It's not one for me, unless abortion is on the table. And then I'm like, Okay, well, like, Okay, let's see how this goes.

Melissa Mogollon 44:16

Yeah, it was really disappointing. I was like, come on.

Traci Thomas 44:21

Yeah. And also when they were like, oh, we can't do this while you're in the state. She's like, What state, like bitch, you're pregnant. You don't know what state you can't have a CT in? Come on.

Melissa Mogollon 44:30

I will say that I was shocked. Like the baby to me did one good thing which was shocked me at like, where the title came from, like, when we eventually hear the line. I was like, oh, yeah, okay. I was thinking that.

Traci Thomas 44:44

Yeah. I agree. I took a note. I was like, okay, because who because, you know, when you see the book and the beginning, like it ends with us, and I'm like, Oh, who's us? Like, yes. Right. Like what ends? Yeah, yeah. And so I did like that since we're on the cover or the title. Let's talk about to cover this these smash had orchids on the shattered orchids. Yeah, can I just tell you if this was a huge missed opportunity to have shattered Lily lilies on the on the ground or her name is maelys? Yes, yes. Like why an orchid we don't ever I thought we were gonna get orchids at some point in the book. I actually when Yeah, I just was like what?

Melissa Mogollon 45:24

To me like I was being really generous. There's also orchids on my book on the cover, but I was like, Okay. I was like, what, why? Why the orchid and I was like, well, they are known for being actually extremely strong. Like they grow on trees in the rainforest. They're very strong, but they look really delicate because they're really hard to have as like houseplants like they're they're very fragile. But that was my very generous read. I have no idea. I do love the pink though. I do love the love the pink.

Traci Thomas 45:50

I like the font for it ends with us, but I just couldn't get over the fact. That girl's name is Lily. And it sort of looks like wood paneling. Yeah, yes. shiplap probably. Yeah, I really was upset that it wasn't lilies. I just felt like we're doing this really blossom bloom thing and then you're gonna give me a fucking orchid. We don't I don't think the word orchid is in the book. Yeah, so her flower shop. sounds horrible. Steampunk flowers. What in the caucasian hell is that?

Melissa Mogollon 46:26

And I want to talk to you after you've seen the trailer because have you seen pictures of what the flower shop looks like?

Traci Thomas 46:33

No, I have to look it up.

Melissa Mogollon 46:36

It looks like the Shire from like Lord of the Rings. It is It looks like almost what you'd see in Disneyland a Disneyland exhibit of what this would be. It is like the most extravagant large forest I've ever seen with like planetariums hanging and moss growing everywhere. It's like, I feel like they're really leaning into like her from be like-

Traci Thomas 46:55

Oh my god, I see it. Okay, if I'm being honest, it looks better than what I had envisioned.

Melissa Mogollon 47:02

Good. This is like the kind of fire stuff I want to see when in this kind of adaptation. Because it's like if I'm suspending reality to believe that a 23 year old like could open a brick and mortar in Boston. Like I wanted to do things traveling and like this.

Traci Thomas 47:13

Yes, I don't I don't hate the depiction of that. But it is absolutely insane. Doing the most. Okay. Did you believe that Colleen Hoover was riding a 23 year old or did you feel like a 40 year old woman was riding Lily.

Melissa Mogollon 47:31

I do feel like a 40 year old woman was writing Lily.

Traci Thomas 47:34

Yeah, one of the dead giveaways for me was when she was like, Ellen, have you heard of Harry Connick Jr. He would be a killer guest on the show. He's so funny. I love him.

Melissa Mogollon 47:46

I was at what time are we in? And like, why is this child talking like they've never been on the internet? Like it was just very strange. Like, it did not feel like a 20 year old.

Traci Thomas 47:54

It was 2008 that's when that was because number she's like you're talking to the future. Maybe a future President Barack Obama. Um, so that was 2008. There were just so many. Like, there's also a part where she when she's 23, which I also didn't believe where she's like, she's like, I didn't want to text Raul because I didn't know what text etiquette was. I'm like, It's 2016 girl. You know what text etiquette is at this point? Yeah, like everyone's texting everyone. There's no etiquette. It's a wild west out here.

Melissa Mogollon 48:25

Was anyone posting on social media at all in this book ever? I guess maybe I don't- Also the fact that no, and she wasn't like, well, people even go to a flower shop these days. Like no one's asked that no one asked them.

Traci Thomas 48:40

No, no one asked that. That's so true. It just Yeah. And I also feel like the difference between her voice at 15 and her voice at 23 was non existent. Like when she late journal entry, after everything, where she's like, she writes to Elon as an adult again, I was like, this is the exact same writing like same vocabulary, same everything. Okay. This is what we have to talk about. Before we go. I want to talk about just like calling Hoover as a literary icon. Figure. Do you feel like you have a sense of how she is who she is after having read this book? Why she's so famous? Why her?

Melissa Mogollon 49:22

I think that like most of our readership does enjoy this book. I do think a lot of women in my family probably would have enjoyed this book if they read if they wanted to sit down and read I do think I mean, it's like the same argument and when we talk about commercial fishing fiction versus genre versus literary like I do think this there is a market for this and I do think the majority of readers are enjoying books like this. So I'm not shocked I'm not sure and a lot of the rage. I think for me, came from the language like not so much the domestic abuse, it was like I was like I cannot believe we are letting away was the voice characters like this or speak like this? But I do think like, I'm thinking of my friends who aren't necessarily readers per se, but I'm like, they would love the ship. They do love this shit, you know? Yeah. And so yeah, it's just it's not for me, but it's like the same way sometimes when you know, the elections. And so I'm like, Oh, well, you know, we are a large country and a lot of us want different things.

Traci Thomas 50:21

Yeah, I feel like I got a better sense of why people like this. I think first and foremost, and I don't, I actually don't mean this in a super shady way, though, it is gonna sound shady. And you guys know me, when I mean something in a shady way. I'd never preface it like this. So I really am trying to be generous here. I think the main one of the main reasons people like her work based off this book alone, is that it is written at a sixth grade level. So it is easy to read. Like, there's no you never have to look up a vocabulary word, you never have to stop and be like, What's she talking about? She never does, like 10 pages of description of the flower shop, it's purple. There's some steampunk elements, there's a clock, and like, That's it, it doesn't ever get bogged down, it moves extremely fast, even though I would have liked it to be about 100 pages shorter. And so I think like, when we think about books that end up becoming huge successes, like huge, huge, huge, I'm thinking like Twilight, or, like these books are written for young adults. And they're written at a young adult level, which I think is probably closer to eighth grade than it is to high school. I mean, you would know better than that. But like, I think that is the huge, I think the biggest piece about what she does is that the writing is extremely basic. So it is there's no barrier to entry. You don't have to be a good reader, you don't have to be a fast reader. You don't have to be a thoughtful reader, you don't even have to think about a simile or metaphor, if you don't want to like you can just open the book and go. I also think she is a white blonde lady. And that really fucking helps. Right? Like, what's not to like about this sweet white girl from Texas who writes about love. And then I think the other part of it is that the book is extremely emotionally manipulative. And I think like she is making people feel like it's deep, right? Like, this is so deep. We're talking about domestic violence. So you feel like you're getting something with your fluff. And I think for people who don't read a lot, that that's extremely attractive. I mean, again, not to bring it to Grey's Anatomy, but like we love Grey's Anatomy, because it's sort of deep and fluffy.

Melissa Mogollon 52:32

Yes. Yeah, exactly. It's a groundbreaking romance. I would say like for the genre. This is like fantastic. Incredible.

Traci Thomas 52:38

Yeah, I mean-

Melissa Mogollon 52:39

And the sex scenes, we haven't talked about the sex scenes.

Traci Thomas 52:41

Oh, yeah, I thought they would be sexier. I thought it would get I thought it would be good.

Melissa Mogollon 52:46

The sex scenes were not good. And in fact, I think I like skimmed some of them. I was like, alright, well,

Traci Thomas 52:51

There's not that many for a 400 page book. There's a lot of like making out early on. They don't have sex to page. I think 122 I think is where I took the note; I thought there would just be more like I think they only have sex like, a few times.

Melissa Mogollon 53:05

Yeah, they think about it a lot. They talk about it.

Traci Thomas 53:09

Think about it a lot. Yeah. And everyone's penis is an iron. It's a hot iron hard and hot. I feel like the I was like, that's an interesting metaphor. I'd never heard that one. But it's hot and hard and feel you can feel it through the scrubs. You can always feel it through the scrubs. I also think the other thing about obviously, like social media has really helped her but I also think like maybe, cuz it's sort of like a gateway kind of book. If you like this. It opens the doors for you to like other things. And so I think a lot of people tell folks to start here. And so I think that helps, too. Because like, even if you think like back to when you were a kid, you remember the books you loved when you first started reading because they are like, it's like a first experience for you.

Melissa Mogollon 53:49

Yeah, yeah. My students actually were like, I asked him, I was curious. I was like, have you guys read this? And they're like, Yeah, sounds like did you like it? And they're like, when I read it in seventh or eighth grade, I thought it was groundbreaking. I was like, oh my god, we're reading this eighth grade. And then they're like, but now that I read it, I don't think it's as groundbreaking but I was like, Oh my gosh, as a seventh grader, this would have been the best book I've ever read in my life.

Traci Thomas 54:10

Best book ever. I was talking to some friends about this book, because they asked me they were like, Well, do you get why? And I was like, I think because it's just like really easy to read. And they and I was like, sort of like Twilight. And they're like, well, Twilight was for ya. So you had YA and adult and I was like, Well, this is adult but also for ya. Like I think this is definitely a why a book, especially because of the editorializing. She does like the scene with the mom, where it's like, don't forget your limit like dead like that whole scene where it's like, I thought my mom would be mad at me as she understood like all of that felt so it feels so ya and like the way that it is in the way and places that is preachy. And also, she does give you everything you want in this book, right like she gives you the romance with the hot guy who then turns out to be a monster she gives you Atlas she gives you the scene where you see Atlas, she gives you the confrontation with the boys. She gives you the mom habit. Like she hits all of the marks of like I like because I was definitely like, when are we getting the scene with the mom? And I was like, maybe it's never gonna happen. Like she's not telling her mom and then we got it.

Melissa Mogollon 55:16

She somehow hid somehow hid her pregnancy from her mom until she was showing which-

Traci Thomas 55:21

And I'm like, also, your mom lives in Boston. It's not like you're like doing FaceTime with her and she can't see you. I'm like, anyways, but yeah, I feel like she she hit. Like it or not. She hit the marks in the right. Like she did what needed. She did what needed to be done. She did what her readers wanted. I think it's extremely easy to digest. Especially considering like the topic. Yeah. Because there's versions of this book that are probably like, make you sick, right? Like not romance.

Melissa Mogollon 55:51

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I never question. I mean, just there, there is immense value in like, respect and who she is, you know, so I never, when I picked it up, I was like, I know, I'm gonna find why, like, I'm going to understand you. And also I just know people we know people. I know, people. I'm like, I know the why this book is doing well. And so yeah, yeah, it was more so just eye opening for me to understand more why and yeah, see what she does well, and then other things be like, Oh, my God, I could never say that. And feel good about myself. But okay.

Traci Thomas 56:21

No, I mean, but I also like, something. I remember who it was, but some, I think maybe this Tia Williams, the romance writer, she said to me was like, I could write literary fiction, literary fiction, authors could never write romance. And I would love to see some of our faves. Like trying to write a book like this.

Melissa Mogollon 56:42

I admire like the shamelessness of that, like calling whoever had in mind. Like there's so many things that I find so cliche that like, I could never say with a straight face or feel okay, saying that, like she just goes for it. And it does well, like they're cliches for a reason. It feels good to people. It is up to people it does well it sells. But like I like girl power to her, but like, Uh, ya know, I my, my ego would keep me up at anything.

Traci Thomas 57:06

Yeah, totally. Okay. I'm trying to think Is there anything else we didn't talk about that we absolutely have to talk about? Is there anything that you feel like we missed? Like, it's actually the ending? Do we buy the ending? With? She has the oh, oh, wait, no, we have to go back slightly before that. The scene? This was the most unhinged scene of the whole book for me, oh, my God, this return when she has the baby. And they're in the hospital. And she's like, I know what I have to do. She's like, this is our baby's name. Emerson Dorie, I know what I have to do. Rachel, want to divorce. Rachel, look at our baby. What would you say to her if a man ever pushed her and hit her and I'm like this, you are 15 minutes postpartum. If you are doing this. You have named a baby had the dad hold it filed for divorce and also shamed the dad to the point where he is weeping over your fucking baby's body. And he is you can't protect that baby. You are out on the bed. And you're fucking poking the bear. Like what?

Melissa Mogollon 58:17

Exactly what I was like you are triggering you potentially triggering this man to the point he's gonna throw this baby at you.

Traci Thomas 58:24

And not to victim blame. But I'm just like, this is an extremely emotional moment for everyone, including the baby who has just gone from being in your lovely amniotic fluid filled womb to being in a room with you people. And I just was like, wow, we're doing all of this right now. Right here. Like she was like, Wait till I have the baby then I'll decide and she lit my back very literally. Immediately afterwards.

Melissa Mogollon 58:49

Yeah, that was wild. And that was for us. I feel like that moment was for readers like that was like yeah, that was like let's go out on a bang here.

Traci Thomas 58:58

Strong, strong woman strong Yeah. Okay and then the ending ending the epilogue where she runs she casually runs into Atlas on the street.

Melissa Mogollon 59:07

Yeah, and obviously you know, I love that because I wanted to see them together the whole time.

Traci Thomas 59:10

Because you know that you know the sequel. It Starts with Us is about Atlas and Lily.

Melissa Mogollon 59:15

Yes, I did hear that and I cannot believe that that that it starts with us is the title. But yeah, I was really happy I was waiting for it. I was like she has ended up with Atlas. So I was really pleased.

Traci Thomas 59:27

Okay, I mean, I don't care I hate Atlas but like I don't hate him I'm just like not into it. I'm like could you just meet like I don't know like an Aegis Elba type maybe and then we could just go do that like meaning from Lily needs more deck. Okay. She needs fresh relationships. I think okay, I have this is the last thing I want to say. You know how the whole book is framed around naked truth. Yeah, I am shocked and appalled that they never spoke about half of these things before like This whole book is solved if they, as they're dating one another. She's he's like so you mentioned you slept with the homeless guy, tell me that story.

Melissa Mogollon 1:00:08

This is like what I don't understand about so many of the relationships that like, people don't talk?

Traci Thomas 1:00:15

People don't talk about anything. Yeah, you never you never thought oh over dinner tonight I'm just gonna bring up your dead brother and see what that's about; that must have been really hard for you.

Melissa Mogollon 1:00:25

To the point where you have to have this bit of saying Naked Truth to like in like almost like create a separate part of your relationship to deliver this thing and then you leave it there and you go back to your life, don't talk about it.

Traci Thomas 1:00:36

Right. I buy that for I guess I guess the way that Colleen Hoover makes it work is that Lily is so young, and Ryle has never been in a relationship. But I just thought it was weird because like their whole relationship is built on like telling each other the truth. And I just I like he never once said to her Hey, what like how are you doing with the grief of your dad? You mentioned that he beat up your your boyfriend in high school. What was that? His name was Atlas. What a name. What was what a name? I like this whole book would be solved. I feel like that's one of the things with romances. It's always really hard for me. I'm like, You're adults. You guys never spoke about any of this. I would be too curious to be like you. Your brother is dead. What happened?

Melissa Mogollon 1:01:21

100% and like you also knew he was gonna eventually find her diary. We all knew he's gonna eventually find the thing eventually.

Traci Thomas 1:01:28

I didn't see that coming. I mean, I should have I just wasn't thinking about it. But yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I was scared.

Melissa Mogollon 1:01:34

I was scared and Ryle found it. I was like, oh, no, here we go.

Traci Thomas 1:01:38

Yeah, I mean, that whole scene. She does a good job writing that scene. It's pretty scary. You know, something's up and then he's like, Oh, he wants to have sex with me. I'm like, Lily girl, you're in danger. Get out. And when he makes her take the shirt off. That was fucked up.

Melissa Mogollon 1:01:50

I'll see is that when he bites her and

Traci Thomas 1:01:52

Yeah, after that I did. She coming she goes runs to the room. Her back is to that him and he comes up behind her and like, grabs her and then he bites her shoulder.

Melissa Mogollon 1:02:01

That's when I thought we were gonna do like a twilight twist or something like where? Like a vampire. Yeah, I was like, Oh, this is okay. Another element. I didn't know we had.

Traci Thomas 1:02:11

Yeah. All right, everybody. We did it. We did. We did it. Are we ready? For those of you who are still here? I'm sorry if you're mad at me, but honestly, wasn't this fun? This was a joy. Let's do it again. Around to our book club pick for next month. You'll have to find it out at the end of this episode, but I'll tell you this. It is not Colleen Hoover and you guys are gonna be excited. Okay, one for me one for you. You guys have to read Melissa's book. It's called Oye. It's out in the world. You can get it. I did audio and print. Both, I cosign. It's fun. If you want to read about a teenager young person who sounds like a teenager and also isn't fun opening a fucking flower shop even if there's an orchid on the cover. That's that's the book for you. Melissa, thanks for doing this with me. Thank you for being game for CoHo.

Melissa Mogollon 1:02:59

It was so much fun. Thank you.

Traci Thomas 1:03:01

Everybody else. We will see you in The Stacks.

All right, y'all. That does it for us today. Thank you so much to Melissa Mogollon for being down to discuss Colleen Hoover on the podcast with me. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Andrea Pura for helping to make this conversation possible. All right now it is time for our July book club announcement. We are taking on a modern classic Parable of the Sower by the legendary Octavia E. Butler. This book was written in 1993 and it is a post-apocalyptic novel that starts in July 2024. So you know we had to read it because I love to be timely around here. You have to listen to our episode on July 3rd to learn who our guests will be for this discussion of Parable of the Sower which will air on July 31st. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join The Stacks Pack and subscribe to my newsletter at TraciThomas.substack.com. Make sure you're subscribed to The Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave a rating and a review. For more from The Stacks follow us on social media at thestackspod on Instagram, Threads and TikTok and at thestackspod_ on Twitter and you can check out my website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Lauren Tyree
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