Ep. 301 What Makes a Recipe Good with Sohla El-Waylly

Written By Cherie Marquez
Ep. 301 What Makes a Recipe Good with Sohla El-Waylly

Chef, restaurateur and media personality Sohla El-Waylly joins to talk about her debut cookbook, Start Here: Instructions for Becoming a Better Cook: A Cookbook. We find out how Sohla balances difficulty, time, and ingredients while writing recipes for home chefs. She also shares how having a child has changed the way she thinks about food and feeding people, and shares tips for cooking related resolutions (including one that Traci is committed to).

The Stacks Book Club selection for January is Erasure by Percival Everett. We will discuss the book on January 31st with Zach Stafford.

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08
Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I’m your host Traci Thomas and today I am thrilled to welcome Sohla El-Waylly. Sohla is a chef, beloved food personality and restaurateur. Her first cookbook is called Start Here: instructions for becoming a better cook. And it is truly one of the best cookbooks I have ever read an ever cooked from. It’s a New York Times best seller aimed at home chefs of any skill level who are looking to improve their technique and learn the fundamentals of cooking. I have learned so much from this cookbook. Solange I talked today about how she created this fantastic book, food related New Year’s resolutions and racism in the world of cooking. As a reminder, our book club title this month is Erasure by Percival Everett, which I will be discussing on Wednesday, January 31st with our guest, Zach Stafford. Everything we talked about on every episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. Listen, it’s a new year, it’s a perfect time to join the stacks pack at patreon.com/the stacks. That is our community over on Patreon for people who like the show and want more bookish fun. When you join you earn perks like our virtual book club access to our Discord. Plus, you can join our amazing brand new mega reading challenge which is 52 book prompts that are super hard and challenging and fun and will encourage you to read more and read more diversely plus from now until the end of January you get access to the Stacks reading tracker, which is one of my favorite perks that we only offer for a limited time every single year. It’ll help you reach reading goals and even just get into a better practice of reading. And the most important part at least to me is that if you join the stacks pack you get to rest assured knowing that by joining you are making it possible for me to make the show every single week. It’s all of that for just $5 a month so head to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack. Alright. Now it is time for my conversation with Sohla.

Alright, everyone, I’m so excited if you have been following me on Instagram, if you have been paying attention to me at all in the last, I don’t know three months, you know that I read a cookbook in 2023 that I am obsessed with. It is by Sohla El-Waylly. It’s called Start Here. And of course, because I love it so much. I had to bring Sohla onto The Stacks. Sohla, welcome to the Stacks.

Sohla El-Waylly 2:52
Thanks for having me. And wow, there’s so many tabs.

Traci Thomas 2:55
There’s so many tabs.

Sohla El-Waylly 2:56
You actually read the book.

Traci Thomas 2:58
Oh, not only did I read the book, I read the book cover to cover, then I went back like I just read it like a book. Like I was like, let me just like read it. Then I went back and I was like okay, well, what were the recipes that were exciting to me. So then I went back through all the recipes, and I flagged every single one that I was like, let me cook. And then that first week, I cooked six of the recipes. And then a few days. I’ve cooked a few more since I think I’ve cooked like nine of the recipes. I’m planning on cooking something tomorrow from the book. I love it. I’m obsessed with you. So that’s why you’re here. This is just me fangirling over you and the book. But for people who have not read Start Here yet, can you just tell them in like 30 seconds or so about the book?

Sohla El-Waylly 3:43
Well, first of all, most people make one recipe maybe. So that-

Traci Thomas 3:49
People are not cool like me.

Sohla El-Waylly 3:54
And the cookbook, I think it’s for someone of any skill level who just wants to know more, because I kind of give you a little deep dives about technique and science. And so if you are a total beginner, there’s something in there for you. And if you if you’re a seasoned Cook, and you just really want to level it up, there’s something in there for you. So yeah, I don’t know, you describe the book for me, you probably read it.

Traci Thomas 4:17
I’ll describe it for you. This is a cookbook that I agree it’s for anyone. However, I will say as a pretty good cook. I will say if you’re brand new to cooking, you will have to do a lot of the recipes multiple times. Like it really is something that if you’re new, you’re gonna want to get your skills together on this book, which is why I love the eggs chapter. Because I’m like, Yes, eggs are cheap, you can fuck them up. And I think what I really liked about the book and what I appreciate is that you do a great job of explaining the why behind things, which I find really helpful because I don’t actually know why I do a lot of things in the kitchen just someone told me to do it. But the example that I’ve been using for people is you talk about heating up the pan and then adding the while later, and I know that some recipes, they tell you to do that some recipes they don’t. And you explain why which, of course, as soon as I say this, everyone listening is gonna be like, This is so obvious, but the reason you do it is because if you’re cooking something really high heat, you want the pan to get hot, but you don’t want to start cooking the oil because then the oil might burn. So you add the oil and right before you add the food, which of course makes so much sense, but I just never knew why. And so this book has had so many aha moments for me.

Sohla El-Waylly 5:29
That’s wild, I don’t even remember that.

Traci Thomas 5:32
It’s in the like, it’s in the hot heat chapter like with the steaks and the spatchcock chapter.

Sohla El-Waylly 5:37
Yeah, it’s been so long, I forgotten what’s in it.

Traci Thomas 5:42
Well, I haven’t I think about it every day. I’m like, What can I learn from this cookbook? Will you explain folks how its organized, like the 10 sections, and just a little bit about like the concept of the book?

Sohla El-Waylly 5:55
Well, each chapter is focused on one technique. And at the top of the chapter, it gives you like all the information you need to know about the technique before we head into the recipes. And the recipes are really there to help you learn the technique. I mean, of course, they they are just recipes, too, if you don’t want to get into like the nerdy stuff, you can just pick out something to make for dinner. But you can also work your way through the recipes, they would go in order from easy to hard. And then the idea is if you go through that whole chapter, if you work through all those recipes, you’re going to be a pro at that skill. And then you won’t need recipes anymore, and I will be out of a job.

Traci Thomas 6:32
I don’t believe that second part because I read salt fat acid he we did on this podcast for our book club. And I was like, I don’t need recipes anymore. I’ve learned everything. And now I just get like, attached to the recipe. Like even though I know how to make food and like I cook a lot. And I know what to do. I’m still like, oh, I only have three quarters of an onion, like this recipe is ruined, to go to the store to get a quarter of an onion. So I’m one of those people I just I like to be told what to do. I think it’s because I started cooking, baking and baking, you have to follow a recipe. And I learned as a child that you have to do that. And so I’m like a recipe is it’s not a suggestion. It is a like treasure map. And if you do go off the path, it’s over.

Sohla El-Waylly 7:26
No, that is true with baking. And I’m really glad you follow the recipe because you have no idea. And the comments I get on some baking recipes. If you are gonna like make a baking recipe and you’re gonna like change the flour for almond flour, cut the sugar in half raisins, you’re not allowed to leave a review, there should be like a like, before you write a review, they should make you go through a questionnaire and be like, how much did you take this recipe? You are not allowed to complain? I am not I am not responsible for the outcome of your pancakes that you didn’t put butter in.

Traci Thomas 8:01
My brother does not he does not bake. But he likes snickerdoodle. That’s like the one thing he really likes. And one year he and his wife, they went to make snickerdoodles and she was like, Oh, will you help me? And he did it and they came out really flat. And she’s like, what happened? We followed the recipe. Exactly. And he was like, oh, whoa, I don’t mean like I did a cup but like I didn’t flat- like he like didn’t know how to like flatten it out or it came out all messed up. They tasted fine. But they were pancake size- really, really flat, like wide. But speaking of baking in this book, we get 50/50 cooking and sweets.

Sohla El-Waylly 8:43
I keep forgetting about that. Like I’m burying the lede.

Traci Thomas 8:47
Well, I mean, I don’t know. It feels like revolutionary to me, because so many cookbooks don’t do that. It’s like you get, you know, 90% cooking, savory food. And then you get like a cake, a cupcake, a muffin and a cookie at the end of the book. And this book is really like we get some candy making we get homemade sprinkles, which that’s on my to do list.

Sohla El-Waylly 9:12
I think that those techniques, all the baking techniques are really important. Even if you don’t want to bake a lot, learning those core sweet and savory techniques will make you better at both. Like you may not ever make brittle or caramel for a dessert. But it is a fantastic technique to have in your back pocket for savory food. Stayfree cameras are like what? So I want people to focus on all of these techniques. They all deserve respect and you should you should be able to walk into a kitchen and do everything. I don’t like this like divide if I’m a dessert person. I’m a savory person, we can just let go of the binary.

Traci Thomas 9:53
That’s right free free your mind people you can do it all and I think like I mean correct me if I’m wrong, but my sense says that that sort of divide is much more common and like precious in kitchens like for restaurants. I think most people that I know who are at home cooks, we sort of do it all because we sort I mean, there are people who are like, I don’t really bake wood, even those people probably, like, make a chocolate chip cookie here in there.

Sohla El-Waylly 10:20
Yeah, in kitchens, it’s very strict. I started out on the safer side. And then when I started out, this is wild to me, because I did not start out that long ago, like 15 ish years. And back then I was often the only girl. Wow, it was, it’s like, whoa, the world has completely changed. Now. It’s like 5050 in most restaurants that I walk into, but I was often the only girl. So they would, if they didn’t like, I don’t know, if someone was short on pastry, or they just like didn’t know what to do with me. They’d be like, go over there and roll truffles because you’re a girl. So you should know how to do that. It was just assumed that because I was a girl, I should do pastry. And it really sets me off in the beginning, because I wanted to be like, you know, hey, I’m a girl, but I can use knives. But ultimately, it ended up being kind of a good thing, because I ended up being able to do everything. And I had a lot more opportunity. So I actually was a pastry chef, as well as a savory chef. And when I worked as a professional pastry chef and I developed my own menus. I incorporated a lot of my savory skills in there, like, half of the dessert has such doubles on them. Hmm, which annoys some people, but it’s cool.

Traci Thomas 11:31
It’s not cool to me. I’m like, I’m an aggressively anti vegetable person. I eat a vegetable, but I don’t love a vegetable. Like it’s just not in my heart. No, the carrot recipe the like charred carrot on the like yogurt or whatever. That’s gonna happen. For me. That was delicious.

Sohla El-Waylly 11:50
How do you feel about potatoes?

Traci Thomas 11:52
I love a potato. I don’t consider a potato a vegetable. I know that that’s a kind of a self serving take, but I really like potatoes. And so I don’t think of them as vegetables.

Sohla El-Waylly 12:03
It’s a good like, Gateway vegetable. And like, yeah, a lot of the things that you do to potatoes, like roast them and mash them. You can also do to other vegetables. So like, maybe try it with a potato first. And then when you’re feeling adventurous, I don’t know bust out a turnip, cauliflower.

Traci Thomas 12:19
Not a turnip. That was really a hard turn. For me. That’s like on the bottom of my list. I feel like for vegetables, potatoes are at the top. One of my favorite vegetables though is bok choy. And I did make your spatchcocked chicken with the potatoes. And I did the back of the bok choy to do the schmaltzy. Nice, delicious, delicious. I was so proud of myself. I literally kept going into my refrigerator opening the refrigerator and being like, look at my dry brining chicken like I just kind of like look at it. It’s getting so taut. Look at all that liquid coming out. It’s just taut and amazing. And then I like cooked it and I kept like showing my kids. I was like, Do you want to see her chicken? Look at mommy’s chicken. Chick. I was so random.

Sohla El-Waylly 13:02
Want to ask though? Was that recipe? Does that feel too difficult? Like lifting I was taken over? No? No, okay.

Traci Thomas 13:09
People think it’s hard. I mean, it’s a little it’s a little scary. Because it’s hot oil. You know?

Sohla El-Waylly 13:13
Yeah. Well, I knew about it recently, I made all these recipes like three years ago. So it’s like, really, my recipe writing has evolved. So I was looking at it recently. And I was like, I think I can make this easier. Because it is a lot. You gotta have to cast iron skillet, you got to flip hot oil, you need to have tongs. So I like Wonder if you feel like the payoff was there?

Traci Thomas 13:36
Oh my god. Yes. It was like, it was like the greatest recipe I felt so proud of myself. Okay, I have to tell you like it was just like, you know, I think one of the things about like, at home cheffing that has become really popular is that everything has to be easy and able to be done in 30 minutes. And while as a mom of two four year olds, who has her own, like job and company and like I’m busy, my husband works out of the house, like, you know, it’s not like we’re sitting around all day cooking, there is a lot to be said for making something that took time and effort and energy that I can be excited about. And so that’s one of the things I really appreciate about your book is that like, some of the recipes are really easy and quick. But some of them like do take time and you have to think about them and sort of plan. And it’s a little bit challenging in a way that I really appreciate because I am going to cook and I’m not just going to make like pasta with butter on it for my kids. Like I do want to feel like somebody caught for me. I did it, you know and so I really liked that about that recipe. It’s like I made this on a Wednesday. I know it’s a Monday chicken but I got started late so I made it on Wednesday. But like I really was like wow, I made this and it only took an hour day off but like, I was like wow, I really did this like great nice dinner. And so I’m actually really grateful that there was a little challenge and like a little you know, balancing all the timetables and everything. which you lay out really well in the book?

Sohla El-Waylly 15:03
No, that’s nice to hear, because it’s something that I constantly struggle with. Because it does feel like everybody wants everything to be like, one pot, one sheet tray, 30 minutes. And you are very, like, I just don’t like to cook like that I didn’t grow up eating like that, like, I grew up eating traditional food, which means there’s like eight things on the table every single day. Right? So it is like, it’s, I feel like I’m constantly going through this thing in my head. Like, is this too hard? Is this too easy? Is it even representative of my food perspective anymore?

Traci Thomas 15:35
Well, that’s, I guess that’s sort of my question, which is like, how do you? How do you know what makes a recipe good? Like, what are you looking to to know when your recipes are done? And do you ever pull something back? Because it’s too hard? Or you’re using too many dishes? Or, you know, like, people will be frustrated? Or do you ever feel like you take out an ingredient and you know, this isn’t gonna be as good, but like, people won’t hate me as much. If I take this, like, difficult step out. So how do you balance that?

Sohla El-Waylly 16:06
Well, it is, if you have unlimited resources, like all the time, all the equipment and all the ingredients, it’s very easy to make delicious foods. It really is like, like you give like, like kinda like we do this. Ham and I do this thing with like New York Times mystery menu. And we do have a one our budget, like time budget, but there’s no other budgets. So we’ll just be like, Hey, let’s get caviar and truffles and bone broth and all this stuff. So it’s like, pretty easy to make. That’s delicious. I think a good recipe is when you can take like, five ingredients. Like really give, I like to give myself some kind of restrictions. Like, I cannot use this piece of equipment for this recipe. I think it is kind of magical and really impressive when you can take a few things and a limited amount of time or resources and make something fun happen. But I do like to give myself like one thing. So if a recipe doesn’t use a lot of equipment, or ingredients, I’m going to let myself have time. So that’s kind of the deal with the lemony potatoes, I think that the fantastic recipe doesn’t have a lot going on. So you need it takes some time in the oven, you know. And then on the other hand, if it’s like fast, and doesn’t have a lot of equipment, maybe it’ll have some fun ingredients. So there’s like, the it’s like, I guess, striking this balance to make something work for the majority of folks. But I would love to make a cookbook, that’s just all hard recipe.

Traci Thomas 17:36
See, I would be into that. I think like, I mean, so the way that actually came to your work was a few years ago, I think 2021 One of my good friends, she used to work at the infatuation. And now she owns like a little shop called Big night in New York City. And she and I were like hanging out. And I was saying, you know, we’re doing Thanksgiving. What do you think? Whatever. And we’re talking and she’s like, Well, why don’t you spatchcock your turkey? And I was like, I I never even heard that word before. And she’s like, you cut out the thing you break thing. It’s flat like whatever. She I was like, Katherine, there’s no way I could do it. She’s like, listen, there’s this woman Her name is Sandra Whaley. She has a video on it. Just watch it and see and I watched your little video and I watched you maybe on like, the Today Show, maybe talking about it or something. Like 10 times, I ordered my turkey. I made the guys at the whole foods do the actual spatchcock because you’re scared to do it. But I cook the turkey, it was the best Turkey I’ve ever had in my life. And I was like whoever this woman is, she is my new hero. I just like it. And the reason I’m saying that is because it seemed really hard to me like I had failed roasting a full turkey so many times not failed, but like just not great, you know? And I was like, This is really hard. I’m going to try this new thing for Thanksgiving. Like, who knows, see if Katherine’s an idiot or not see if this solo woman’s an idiot or not. You both pulled through amazing for me. And it again was like that feeling of accomplishment in the kitchen. And like for me, I just think that’s really important. Because I’m not a chef. I’m not a cook. Like this is something that I like to do for fun. And so the recipes don’t have that element of like exciting fear and maybe you’re gonna fail. I don’t know it just feels like very lackluster. But that’s my intro to you. So I associate you with spatchcocking and so that’s why I wanted to start with the chicken in this book because I was like, worked with the turkey.

Sohla El-Waylly 19:36
You know, I love that because Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday and I would really like my goal is to use syrup. Martha Stewart as the Queen of Thanksgiving. I don’t know I love how to do this. But I’m putting it out there.

Traci Thomas 19:49
Okay, I’m a footsoldier on in this in this for you. I will lead anybody anywhere. I’m with you because I don’t love Thanksgiving but I love everything I’ve ever made that you’ve made. So if you’re leading the way on Thanksgiving, you could take me you could take me to the Thanksgiving Promised Land.

Sohla El-Waylly 20:06
I didn’t do anything for Thanksgiving this year because of the baby. But I’m so ready for next year. Like, Martha needs to watch out.

Traci Thomas 20:17
She needs to. She’s had her time. We like her fine, but she’s had her time. We’d I want to ask you about the baby. If that’s all right. How has having you have a three and a half month old child? How has that changed how you think about food? feeding people? Has it changed that for you? I know what, three, three months or maybe you know, should not hurt. They’re not eating like food food yet. But they will be. And I’m just wondering if like it’s shifted how you think about feeding people,

Sohla El-Waylly 20:48
it actually really has, I, I’ve been great at like, I can feed other people, I can have you over for dinner party, I can do something like that, like elaborate, but I’m really bad at actually feeding myself. And, you know, I get a lot of like, it’s like one of those things like when my husband is home alone, he will make himself food and eat properly and be a grown up. But when I’m home alone, I won’t eat anything, or I’ll just have popcorn, there’s like all this guilt for me around, you know, like I like, I think it’s a girl thing. It’s like we’re trained that we don’t deserve a good meal. And we don’t deserve to really feel full. And when I was pregnant, and now that I’m breastfeeding, I really have to nourish myself, because that’s what’s feeding the baby. And it’s made me really think differently about food. So like, I tell myself, like, it doesn’t matter if no one’s home, I have to I have to make sure like I eat breakfast, I have lunch, I need to make sure that I’m getting my nutrients in for this baby. And it really made me realize that I was eating so poorly, that it was scary. It’s really scary. Because people assume that when you have an eating disorder, you’re going to be really thin. But that’s often not the case. Right? So you don’t really know what’s happening in someone’s mind or body based on the way they look. Yeah. So I feel like I’m dealing with a lot of that now.

Traci Thomas 22:12
I’m, I’ll be interested to watch your journey as a food person and a parent. Because I feel like so much has changed for me about how I think about food and cooking. But also like, the pressure of food for I think specifically moms is really intense. And there’s so many people online who have so many opinions and share them, not like in the comments, but just like you know, this food person or this and like having your baby eat this and have it and like all of that stuff. So I’ll be really interested to watch and see how if at all, like you talk about it, or if at all it comes up for you. And like because kids are hard. Everyone’s like, oh, just give them a lot of food and they’ll eat everything. I’m like, okay, my kids are eating like curry powder, this and that. And now they’re like, if it’s not a quesadilla, it’s not happening, lady. You know?

Sohla El-Waylly 23:06
I’ve heard this, yeah. Something happens after two and they just want to fight you on everything.

Traci Thomas 23:10
Yeah, it’s called they get a personality and they get opinions. And the most important thing in the world to them isn’t food, even though that became the most important thing in the world to me with kids was like, feeding them like, that’s what I cared about more than anything else. And now I’ve gotten to the point where I’m just like, Okay, I like case videos, I eat a microwave case video almost every day for lunch. Speaking of not feeding ourselves well. And so I’m like, you know, case studies are fine.

Sohla El-Waylly 23:34
But I was really picky eater. Yeah, it worked out fine. No longer.

Traci Thomas 23:40
Well, I know your books full of not picky eater food. So I feel like you’ve definitely broadened your palate, I’m still working on it. I want to talk about the organization of this book, visually, there are some sections where you have like pictures, like these grids, where it shows you like each step, what it’s supposed to look like. And then there’s also like more traditional pages where you just have like a picture of the meal or the dish or whatever. What was the impetus behind doing like the grid pictures?

Sohla El-Waylly 24:07
Well, I knew initially, I wanted to make sure in each chapter that one key recipe was gonna have processed steps like that for you to help for help to help you visualize the technique better. But we actually shot everything in our home. And when we were like, in the process of shooting, we were like, Oh, we’re just, we’re cooking it right now. Let’s just like shoot all of that. In my mind. I was like, Yeah, okay, yeah, we’ll just stick a camera on it, shoot all of it, no big deal. And I didn’t realize how that was going to exponentially become more difficult down the line in the production of the book. So like, we actually ended up shooting. I don’t remember the exact number but it was well over 10,000 photos. Wow. And then that meant we had to go through 10,000 photos and make selects and then it ended up being a few 1000 in the book that then had to get placed in And the proper like, order, and edited and cropped and all this stuff. So like really, really got away from me. I think it, it really helps because I, I’m someone that I really struggle with, like, understanding what a recipe often says, like how brown how, how brown should this look? How much should this cook down. So like I wanted to make sure and capture those key moments with photos so that you can be like, oh, when she says char, she needs char? Like no, you’re on the right track. I often get like pictures from friends who are cooking and think they’ve messed up. And one of the main places where people think they’ve messed up is people often think that they’ve burned something. And I’m like, no, no, that is a perfect sear.

Traci Thomas 25:43
Yeah, I think the pictures helped so much. I can’t remember which recipe it was. Maybe it was the brown butter, banana bread, maybe I can’t remember. But there was some recipe where I was like cooking it. And I and I was reading the restaurant, I read it like four times. And I was like, I feel like I don’t understand what I’m supposed to do. And then I turned the page and I was like, Oh, thank you. Because like sometimes the the ways that things are described in the kitchen is sort of like describing music. It’s like it’s hard to do, because music is something you hear. And food is something you taste and you smell so like when you give like a written cue for something, it just doesn’t always translate for every forever for at least for me all the time. And so having the pictures like, Oh, this is another hint about like being on the right track. Also, it’s just beautiful. Like the book is so gorgeous. I like it’s just, it’s like such a document of like, the kitchen to me, which I just I really love. I just love I love the book. I’m like, I just love it.

Sohla El-Waylly 26:41
Um, well, that’s because of Laura Murray, until it was actually your designer, she was the photographer, photographer, and she’s an amazing photographer. So really, everything we put in front of her, we didn’t really do any food styling, and all of the stuff that we used was our own equipment. She’s just like, so amazing. A lot of people try to rip off her style, like now that you’ve seen the book, you’re gonna notice it, other people trying to do it. But she’s technically able to capture every single detail was so much precisions that it doesn’t really matter what else is happening. But we also had an amazing designer, Chris Cristiano, who I worked with at Bon Appetit. And he’s currently like the visual director for Netflix. So I feel very lucky that he said yes.

Traci Thomas 27:27
I mean, yeah, it’s just so beautiful. I think like two really good people them because they pulled it off. How do you have your recipes tested? Who tests them someone besides you? Do you test like how many times before you’re like, Okay, we got it?

Sohla El-Waylly 27:45
Well, I’ll work on the recipe until I feel like it’s good until it’s done. And then both my husband processed and everything, as well as an outside processor ally cycle. And for the cross testing process, what they do is they cook through the whole recipe. And they’ll take note of everything, like they’ll make sure that the quantities are correct that like that for potatoes do equal one and a half pounds, or whatever I wrote that it actually took eight to 10 minutes to see or something. They also make sure that it reads well that it makes sense that that they understand it. And then Pam also So Ham is my husband, and he’s a really good chef. So he’s like maybe too good to be a crafter, because everything is easy for him. So like, I’ll say that the recipe takes 45 minutes, and he’s done in 10 minutes. So he didn’t really cross test for that. But he was more helpful in helping me like, make sure that the flavors worked. And then Ali Slagle she works she does, she’s a freelancer who does a lot of recipes for New York Times and she has a cookbook called Ice Cream have dinner. It’s just suspected, but she’s she she more represents the home cook because she likes to do really simple efficient recipes. So she was the one who was telling me this is too many bowls. Oh, interesting. I don’t want to wash a rack. So it was really great having those two perspectives to make sure things were working and it was really fun having ally test as well because she doesn’t have as much baking experience. So this was like her first layer cake and her first time making pie and it all worked out so great. So that gives me hope that it will work out and other folks kitchen.

Traci Thomas 29:27
I’m intimidated by the layer cake. I gotta be honest, I’m not I haven’t quite gotten the courage. I thought I was going to do it this week, my kids birthdays this week as we’re recording and I just decided I can’t I can’t do it. I’m not ready. I would say the week of Chris I’ve done the banana bread twice. Okay, good. Okay, so you’ve got the creaming I know how to do it. I’m just I feel intimidated because your cakes are gorgeous. I’m so stressed about it. I’m gonna send you pick. I’m gonna be harassing you. I’m gonna be like, Look what look what happened. So I mentioned we’re recording this at the end of December. But this is airing in January. And one of the reasons I wanted to do this in January is because New Year new you, I’m going to start cooking, I’m going to cook more cooking resolutions, food, etc. What do you say to New Year New you cooks? What advice do you have for them? What is your what are your thinking about people who maybe made resolutions to cook more cook at home or eat out less? I don’t know. I’ve heard all of them. Eat more vegetables. Me. Every year my same resolution never works.

Sohla El-Waylly 30:43
I think the general thing for all resolutions is to be practical. You know what I mean? Like, I don’t think you’re gonna be able to be like, I’m never ordering out again. Or I’m gonna become like, a vegetarian overnight. I think it should be like simple, executable things. So you don’t disappoint yourself. Kind of like when you’re starting working out. You know, I always make mistake where I’m like, I’m gonna work out every day and like this time, I’m like, I’m gonna work out three times a week, and I’ve been able to maintain that. So I would say, maybe try and make a deal with yourself to like, cook on Sundays. Like if you never cook at all. Maybe like, try it. Try once a week. Or if you don’t really like vegetables, pick one vegetable that you’re gonna get to know. Maybe one a month. Maybe like this is the month of broccoli.

Traci Thomas 31:31
Okay, I like this idea for me.

Sohla El-Waylly 31:33
Yeah, broccoli is a great one to start. Broccoli is like very diverse. You can do so much. I like broccoli. Broccoli is one I’ll eat broccoli is a fantastic vegetable. And you can learn a lot of culinary techniques with it because it does well chard, it does well steam this as well. So I paid it’s a great soup. So I don’t know, keep it simple. Keep it chill. And like Equip yourself.

Traci Thomas 31:56
I’m feeling inspired by one vegetable a month to really like yeah, get in there with I gotta find the right one. So because like I tried to cook with leeks a few times. And I’ll tell you, I don’t like leaks. Leaks are gross. And it really upsets me that you can’t eat most of it. I don’t I don’t know, I made up a recipe, I saw a recipe online. And then they didn’t actually put the recipe but I couldn’t find it on their website. So I was like, I’m just gonna try. And it was not great. But also, it could have been great if I had the recipe, which is why I’m not going to name the chef or what it was because I don’t want them to feel bad about themselves. Because I did the thing. Like, I’m gonna take raisins and add it to this. Because I didn’t fucking know. I do like that advice. So like starting with something really manageable. I want to ask you, so you’re also people know you from a lot of your like online content, you make videos. You were formerly at Bon Apetit, famously, which I do want to ask you about. But before I get to that, what for you is the biggest difference from online video content and the book. And do you have? Did you have a preference?

Sohla El-Waylly 32:58
Well online video content is very fast. The best videos are the shortest ones. So you end up losing a lot of nuance and detail. And up like you can’t get you can’t get in there and really explain to someone, why are you craving this butter and sugar. So I liked that with the book you can like really get into the nitty gritty. And also with online content. Unfortunately, the thing that really sucks about it is everything’s got to be like trendy. And you got to put a million herbs on something and you need to think about how it looks more than often how it tastes. You really start with like the title and the look of something for online content. But with the book you already bought the book, I can give you real recipes that are going to actually be helpful in your kitchen, and not worry about what’s trendy. So that is like kind of the thing that I really don’t like about online stuff. But you have to do both these days, too. Like I have to give you trendy fun recipes with too many herbs online in order for you to buy the book with the recipes that you’ll actually be able to make. So the recipes in the book I think don’t look as like sexy, but they’re practical, because real food isn’t meant to be photographed.

Traci Thomas 34:07
Right. When you were writing the recipes for this book. Were you challenging yourself in any ways? Like were there recipes that you had to work on a long time before you were ready to put them in the book? Or are these a lot of like your staple recipes? Because it’s more about like technique? Well,

Sohla El-Waylly 34:22
I guess the challenge was really to have the recipes both teach a technique, try it to have it be like interesting and delicious and also have global representation. So that was that was hard balancing all those things. There was a lot of spreadsheets all over the apartment. I’d look at it every day and be like we’re missing. We’re missing a taco. Right? That was really what was hard. It was like putting together a puzzle.

Traci Thomas 34:52
Is there anything that’s not in the book that you wish you were able to find a place for?

Sohla El-Waylly 34:56
Yeah, there’s a lot. I can’t think of anything that looks They’re like obvious things that I miss. Like, why isn’t their burger? Oh yeah, like I wish I had that in there. I really wanted to put fried chicken in there. It’s something that we make a lot but I actually cut out the whole frying section because it’s not. It’s not an essential technique for the home cook but I as a Bangladeshi like culturally we’ve deep fry like a lot.

Traci Thomas 35:23
I’m scared of frying so can you do a frying cookbook? Because I feel like I would trust you to take me to the frying.

Sohla El-Waylly 35:29
Oh, a book on frying sounds so fun. I don’t think my publisher is going to be into that.

Traci Thomas 35:35
Well, tell them that I, a book person think that it’s missing on the market. Okay, who’s your publisher? Knopf? Let them know I need a frying book. Tell them I said.

Sohla El-Waylly 35:47
I love frying stuff. I could do it all day.

Traci Thomas 35:50
I’m scared. I’m scared of hot oil. I’m just like, I’m such a scaredy cat. I know that like real chefs. You all have burns all over you. And you know the people who do the ovens. They have just the scars on their wrist. I’m like, No, I don’t want to get hurt.

Sohla El-Waylly 36:04
You know what I think it is with with burns. And with cuts. You just gotta get a few and then get over it. And then you don’t feel them anymore. I like burned myself yesterday.

Traci Thomas 36:13
No, I’m too much of a baby.

Sohla El-Waylly 36:15
Wait, can I talk about something mom-related? So, since I’m breastfeeding, I have like huge boobs that I’m not used to.

Traci Thomas 36:23
Did you burn your boob?

Speaker 1 36:24
Yeah! Because I’m not used to them protruding so far.

Traci Thomas 36:30
Oh my god.

Sohla El-Waylly 36:32
We’re working on that.

Traci Thomas 36:33
See, it’s hard being a mom- like shit like that. None of the books are like What to Expect When You’re Expecting- you’re gonna burn your boobs because you’re breastfeeding and you’re cooking. Yeah, that’s actually incredible. I’m sorry, though. I’m sorry that you hurt yourself. But yeah, that’s my fear about frying. It’s like seems too dangerous. Too hot. Like when I was reading your sugar candy chapter and it was like sugar is hot. I was like, Oh, I can’t cook. Any of these things might get burned.

Sohla El-Waylly 37:03
But sugar is much more dangerous than a deep fryer.

Traci Thomas 37:06
Yeah, well, that’s what I read. I didn’t know that. So now I know. I can make caramel that I do. But more like a caramel sauce. But I don’t I don’t know. I feel like high anxiety. Now I’ve wanted to do the popcorn.

Sohla El-Waylly 37:17
You can do it. You can do it. Just make sure the kids aren’t like, that’s really important. Get everything cute out of the apartment. You don’t want like a kid running in the way while you’re playing around with hot sugar. Just get a few burns, you’ll be okay. You’ll get over it.

Traci Thomas 37:36
I’ll report back but seems unlikely. Um, one of the things I love about the book and as if you can’t tell a bit of a perfectionist type a person is the get loose and the what went wrong section. So in for some of the recipes, you have these like little inserts are kind of like fun colors and it’ll be like get loose. And for example, there’s like shortbread, and then there’s like this crumble and then you make these little shortbread bars which I made which were delicious. I did the jam with the rainbow sprinkles for my mom’s birthday. What and I did strawberry jam, like Pop Tarts one. Strawberry jam. Traditional bottom sprinkle topping crumble with I did like the jam, powdered sugar topping did everything. Nice. Fucking delicious, though. My mom was like, these are too sweet. I’m like, that’s fine. I’ll eat them. She’s like not that into sweets. But my kids wanted to pick what we made. So they were like, We want to make the anyways long story. But after that section, you after the short break, you’re like what went wrong and it’s like, it was too crunchy. It was too crumbly, and then you explain it, like what could have gone wrong. And then you have like, and then later you have like get loose and it’s like add chocolate to the shortbread or orange zest or whatever. And then you have like an orange creamsicle this or a lemon maple this I’m making it up as I go. But where did those ideas come from? And both a get loose and the what went wrong?

Sohla El-Waylly 38:59
Well, that’s really how recipe development works. The fact is, there’s like, there’s like a handful of things out there. And recipe developers just, you know, reassemble the same idea over and over and over again. But I want you guys to be able to do that yourself. You know, get in there and experiment because when I was a kid, I was really really when I first started cooking I was I was a kid and I was really really scared and I needed to follow the recipe like how you mentioned earlier I had you know the three quarters of an onion than running out to get a quarter of an onion. I want people to like like oh that took me a while so let go. It’s gonna be okay. So that’s kind of why the get loose is there so you can loosen up in the kitchen and have more fun. And then also I like to what the hell happened section is nice because I’ve had all those mistakes happen. And also because I get because I’m online I get a lot of feedback from folks will be like what happened? This looks like this or that and Oftentimes you can figure it out. And if you can prove like, problem solve after you’ve made a recipe, instead of like giving up on the recipe, if you like, think about what happened, try and figure out what went wrong, and then go back and do it again, it’s gonna make you so much better as a cook, you’re gonna really be able to understand that recipe inside and out, and it will help you in the future, even when you’re not making that recipe because a lot of the things are a lot of the mistakes that happen are the same across a lot of recipes. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 40:31
I fucked up the Foccacia, it tasted fine. But I didn’t let it proof long enough. But you had in the, in the baking section, like the bread section about proofing. And I didn’t really I didn’t know that term. And like I didn’t know, like, this is what it looks like when it’s too long or not long enough, or whatever. And so that was really helpful for me. So I gotta do a second shot on my Picasa because it tasted fine. Because it’s like, you know, flour and water, like, it’s gonna taste like bread, and it had like oil on top. And it looks great on the outside, but it was too dense on the inside. So that I think means i Under proofed it and needed more time to get like airy and bubbly. But I wouldn’t have known that I would have just been like, oh, this Akasha recipe is weird. It’s like not that good. But because you sort of explained it, it really helped me and it also again, like challenged me to be like, Okay, I want to do this again. I want to get it right. Like I really want to get this right. So I appreciate I appreciate you like because I just don’t ever think like you’re saying I don’t really ever think about like what went wrong. And I think one of the things I can appreciate about the book is like, it is teaching me a lot. And it’s also teaching me how to think about cooking and like how to think about getting better at this skill set, as opposed to just thinking that it’s like the recipe or being like, Oh, I don’t like that recipe. So because I feel like that’s a lot of times what people do.

Sohla El-Waylly 41:49
That’s what everybody does. Yeah. Most of the Pikachu recipes are the same. Yes, like a slight tweak in hydration or the folding.

Traci Thomas 41:59
Some people fold different.

Sohla El-Waylly 42:00
But like all foccacias are the same, honestly.

Traci Thomas 42:04
After I fucked up the bread. I like sat there and I kept it was for my mom’s birthday. And I was like, see, something’s wrong with this. Like, I messed it up. You see, like, I didn’t let it proof long enough. It’s too dense. And she’s like, it tastes great. I’m like, I know it tastes great. But there’s, it’s wrong. It’s wrong. And then I’ve watched like eight Instagram videos of other people making Picasa being like, okay, that’s what I’m looking for. Like, I got to do it again. And normally, I never would have taken the time to do that. I’ve just would have been like, I don’t know how to make Picasa. It’s not that good at home. I’ll just go down the street to Mozart and get it you know, like I just man like, it’s something you buy. This is something you make. What do you feel like was the hardest part of writing this book? And what do you feel like came easily for you?

Sohla El-Waylly 42:44
I mean, the writing. I just didn’t like the writing. Yeah. I hate writing. It’s horrible. But like, what’s that quote? Like? I hate writing. But I love to have written.

Traci Thomas 42:56
Yeah. I’ve heard that. I hate writing. I hate to have written. I like to read, which is why I’m not a writer. But yes, I do know people say that.

Sohla El-Waylly 43:08
When I was looking back on I think I posted on like my stories because I was making ghee with my mom. And then a bunch of people were asking me what the difference between ghee and clarified butter. So I posted this like page from the book that explains it. And then I was reading it. And I was like, who wrote that? I wrote that on my brain. So writing is such a weird thing. Because I don’t know, I I have no memory of it happening. But I just know that it felt terrible. Every step of it felt terrible. It sucks. But it’s like, it’s a dumb job to complain about. Because I’m at home. You know, I’m in the comfort of my home with the computers really pretty easy and in a lot of aspects, but I am not someone who really likes to work alone. And writing is a very solitary thing. I also don’t like to really think too much like I don’t like to be in my head. It’s like a not a good place to be. I see. I see there’s so much darkness there, I’d rather be cooking. I found the cooking part easier.

Traci Thomas 44:10
The cooking part’s easy. So then how did you write how many hours a day? How often do you have music or not? Are you at home? Are there snacks are there beverages? Are there rituals? sort of set the scene?

Sohla El-Waylly 44:22
Well, so the first year I didn’t do anything but outlines

Traci Thomas 44:27
Wait, how many years did this take you? Three? Okay, so the first year you just outlined.

Sohla El-Waylly 44:32
Lots of outlines and a lot of spreadsheets and like a lot of things on the wall. And I would walk by it constantly and be like, just like stare at stuff and a lot of phone calls with my editor and I just did a lot of research like I would just like spend a week reading all about butter. Yeah, that part was fun, like the payout and reading part. Like that’s pretty cool. To have your job be like nerding out about pizza or whatever. Right. So I just did a ton of reading, and then made really detailed outlines. And then then I did the recipes in about three months. But I had like, detailed, like, I had written all the recipes beforehand, I wrote all the recipes during that year. But then I didn’t actually go cook them until, until the time pressures really started hitting me right. And then the recipe development happened pretty quickly. And then we had to go right into the photo shoot, got because I had all these other video shoots happening. So it kind of forced me to get my act together. So the photoshoot was three weeks. And then after that I had three months to finish all the writing before it had to go into post production and editing. So all of the writing happened in like three months where I didn’t sleep, I didn’t leave the house. I didn’t say I like I mostly like rote at night, for some reason. That’s like what works best for my brain. So just be writing all through the night. And then I would just like cry all day.

Traci Thomas 46:06
Were there snacks and beverages involved in the writing?

Sohla El-Waylly 46:09
Just whiskey. Just like a lot of whiskey and pot. And tears. And then when I submitted my manuscript, I was like, the most I’ve been burnt out before, but it was pretty, pretty bad. I was just like, I couldn’t like, move or talk or do anything. So I had a whole month where my husband had to, like, escort me into the backyard, and I would lie down and recharge. And then it was back to work. And then it was all the editing, design, post production. And then it’s like another full, like nine months for the printing process.

Traci Thomas 46:47
Right. You’ve talked about your husband, he’s a chef. So this is I guess the age old question. What’s it like having two cooks in the kitchen?

Sohla El-Waylly 46:55
Great. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I’ve seen people talk about like, how they fight in the kitchen, we don’t fight in the kitchen, we get along really well in the kitchen. And this video, evidence of it. Yeah. Other like YouTube series. So it’s very collaborative. And oftentimes, what we do is we we trade off, kind of like a relay race situation, because it’s nice to have all the space to yourself.

Traci Thomas 47:19
Yeah, I mentioned this a little bit earlier. But famously, in 2020, you talked about BA’s Test Kitchen and like racism and inequality. And people can go back and read about that and talk about that, if they’re if they’re interested in they’re not familiar, but what I’m wondering about is almost four years later, what are you seeing in American kitchens? Have you have you noticed a lasting change? Do you feel like things have returned to what they were in 2020? And before?

Sohla El-Waylly 47:45
Okay, I have a couple of thoughts on this. So I feel like a lot of outlets, like a lot of the big conglomerates are doing more diverse recipes and accepting pitches from different people who they might not have before. And I think that’s really cool. And that’s really great. And I love seeing, like now if if, if New York Times wants a recipe for like an Argentinian stew, they’ll actually get an Argentinian recipe developer, which wasn’t the case for a very long time. Right? So I think that’s awesome. But I go on, like Google Trends, to see what people are actually searching for what the audience is searching for what recipes get the biggest hits, and that hasn’t changed. Like in December, the top hits, it’s just like four different recipes for prime rib. So I think we’re all gonna get there, it’s gonna take a minute, it’s great that like, these new cultures and voices are getting more opportunities, but the audience still just wants primary. Right? So it will take a little bit of time.

Traci Thomas 48:53
Okay, so let me ask you this, because I think I think you talked about this with Sam Sanders years ago, who’s a pile in front of the show and who I adore. But I feel like one of the things and I talked about this a lot in books, like one of the things that has been frustrating for me as a black woman, and like, person in books, which is also a notoriously racist, white centric, people want the same bullshit space is that I am now able to be like an authority on black literature. But like, I’m not still not really, like allowed to be an authority on like, what white people are writing or like, so I’m wondering if you’re noticing that people of color are being given permission to, you know, maybe a Korean person is given permission to make an Argentinian stew, and like that there’s actually opportunity for cross national recipe. Because I think to me, that feels like the real sign of diversity is like that. We’re all given the opportunity to do these things and like I understand cultural appropriation is a huge, big issue. But I also think that if it’s done well, you know, there shouldn’t be limits on who can cook. What if it’s done from a place of like acknowledgement, and also, you know, accreditation and respect and not being like this. This Argentinians do is actually now called, like, festive stew, you know, or whatever. So I’m wondering what what you’re seeing if anything kind of in that world. So

Sohla El-Waylly 50:28
I, I was interviewed about this like, in when my husband and I had a restaurant that closed, it was like in 2016. And we felt really frustrated because people expected us to make food that food that that seemed like it was from our culture, people don’t really know where we’re from, you know, they they don’t know. So we were really frustrated about exactly what you’re saying, like, in restaurants, chefs, white chefs can make whatever they want, and they can be a respected authority on it. And I don’t see anything wrong with that. I just want everyone to be able to do that. Like, I worked for Pok Pok. A while back, which is an amazing Northern Thai restaurant that was over operated by a white guy. And it was it was incredible. And he was so respectful about the way he presented all that all those foods, I don’t think it was cultural appropriation at all. He even didn’t call himself a chef. He just said he considered himself a translator, you know, of these traditional dishes. But I do want to see everyone being able to do that. And I don’t, I’m trying, like really hard. That’s why there’s so much different food in my cookbook, but I don’t see the audience being accepting of that quite yet. And especially when you’re starting out, oftentimes, the best way you can get a byline is to just like, hey, I’m Bolivia. And here’s the Libyan dish. Unfortunately, that is still like the easiest way to get in. And I wish it wasn’t. And I don’t know if we’re making progress there. But I’m trying like, personally with what I’m doing. And I do get a lot of flack, sometimes people will yell at me and be like, Why is Obama actually making an indie indigenous like, guys? Right, right. It’s very frustrating.

Traci Thomas 52:19
I feel like So a friend of mine, he’s a, he’s a chef. And he’s also like a designer. And one of the things he’s really interesting right now is this like, sort of, I live in LA. And the way the food scene in LA kind of is playing out is there’s this like, new sort of like, hyper fusion stuff going on, where it’s like, people are taking techniques and ingredients, and mixing and matching and sort of like, melting pot food, which I think like, people might be more familiar with, like, like David Chang as like, but like, he’s not doing nearly as much as what people in LA are doing now. And I’m wondering, like, what your what your thoughts are about that of like, sort of just taking ingredients and techniques and mixing it up and trying to create new sort of non location specific foods?

Sohla El-Waylly 53:10
Well, it has happened like, throughout history, anytime people move somewhere, they take their food with them, and it becomes part of like, where they are now. And it’s just happening now on this like, really intense level, because everything is like, we’re so global right now, like someone could be listening to this podcast across the world. And we’ve never had a time like that before. And I think it’s freaking some people out, you know, like, I think it is, I think it’s incredible that you can learn any technique and get any ingredient anywhere. But it is causing food to change at a rapid pace. And I think it is, some people are embracing it. I’m definitely on the side of like embracing it. We have this room, our pantry is so fun. It’s like what I’ve always dreamed of my whole life. But I think for other folks, it feels like they’re losing part of their heritage. And it’s kind of causing this increasing nationalism and interesting.

Traci Thomas 54:07
As far as ingredients go, like, how much were you thinking about what is available for people, and like how expensive ingredients are and and that part of all of this?

Sohla El-Waylly 54:20
I was thinking about it a lot. A lot. I wanted to make sure everything in the book you can make with whatever you can find at a local grocery store, anywhere in the country. And I really didn’t want to stick with affordable stuff. And the few times I asked you to buy something specific or expensive. I hope I explained why you know, like like saffron. It shows up a few times because it’s important to me to ties in there as well. So I but I didn’t want to make it too crazy, because I do think it’s kind of frustrating when someone gives you a book and there’s like one recipe with preserved lemons and then you don’t know what to do with it for the rest of us.

Traci Thomas 54:57
Right. I think you also have like the steak The steak one which I made you were like you want to like if you use this like, be careful do a good job because it’s expensive and I was like, thank you. I always ask everyone this what is a word? You cannot spell correctly on the first try? Thorough. Ooh, it’s an it’s an insane word. I despise that word. And then similarly, is there any food that you feel like you just cannot cook? Like you just cannot? You’ve tried it, you cannot get it. It’s just like, You’re fit like nemesis in the kitchen.

Sohla El-Waylly 55:34
Let me think. Hmm.

Traci Thomas 55:38
You’re thinking a lot, which makes me think that maybe you can cook everything?

Sohla El-Waylly 55:41
No, There have been times where I’ve made something sad. But then like, I’ll figure it out eventually. But I don’t know if there’s something that I’ve made.

Traci Thomas 55:51
Or like a technique, like a technique that you just cannot master or like, what’s like the thing that frustrates you most, I guess, in the kitchen?

Sohla El-Waylly 56:03
I guess, you know, grilling can be tough. Yeah, it takes a minute to get your heat, right. So if I haven’t grilled for a while that first time you light up the grill. After the winter. It’s always a little rough. Yeah. And then and then you got to get back into the groove.

Traci Thomas 56:19
You get back into it. I don’t grill that’s like the one thing I don’t do. I’ve never tried. I don’t know how to turn on my grill.

Sohla El-Waylly 56:27
We’re gonna get that down for you. Hopefully for the next book.

Traci Thomas 56:30
Okay, yeah, grilling next. I got Brizio Lopez’s book Asada. And so I made a bunch. It’s all about Mexican grilling. And I made a bunch of recipes from that a lot. A lot of them actually. And they’re all really delicious. But I actually made my husband do the grilling part because I was like, I don’t know how to grill so I did all the prep all the like, marinade, everything but I was like, Okay, here you go. Good luck. Don’t fuck it up. Okay. I’ll get there. So my last question for you are my last few questions for you is for people who love start here. What are some other Cookbooks You might recommend to them? Or other books about food or anything that are maybe in conversation with what you’ve done?

Sohla El-Waylly 57:10
Well, I mean, I think obvious one. Salt, Fat Acid Heat.

Traci Thomas 57:15
Yeah, for sure.

Sohla El-Waylly 57:16
You gotta get it. Everyone’s already got that book.

Traci Thomas 57:18
I know. Well, we did it on the podcast here. So if you were not listening in 2019 Now is your excuse to get it, read it and then come back and listen to our episode.

Sohla El-Waylly 57:27
I also love Harold McGee’s On Food and Cooking, which is more about science, and there aren’t any recipes in it. But if you want to learn more about food science and technique, that’s a good place to go.

Traci Thomas 57:39
That’s a good one. And then my last question is if you could have one person dead or alive read this book. Who would you want it to be?

Sohla El-Waylly 57:46
Oh, amazing. I never met my maternal grandfather. But yeah, that guy. I hear he likes books.

Traci Thomas 57:57
Okay! I love that. Well, Sohla, thank you so much for coming on. Everyone, you can get Start Here wherever you get your books. It is big, beautiful, delicious. I can vouch personally for like eight of the recipes, but by the time this airs, I probably will be able to vouch for a few more because I have my eyes on those carrots. I’m gonna do the cake eventually. I’m doing the everything cookies later this week for my kids’ birthday at school. They want sprinkles and chocolate chips and I might add some other things in there. I haven’t really decided but I’ll keep you guys posted. Sohla, thank you so much for being here.

Sohla El-Waylly 58:31
Thanks so much for having me. This was fun.

Traci Thomas 58:33
Thank you. And everyone else we will see you in the stacks.

Alright y’all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening and thank you again to Sohla Waylly for joining the show. Remember, the stacks book club pick for January is Erasure by Percival Everett which we will discuss on January 31st with Zach Stafford. If you love the show, and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack. Make sure you’re subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you’re listening through Apple podcasts, be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from the stacks, follow us on social media at the stacks pod on Instagram threads and tik tok and at the stackspod underscore on Twitter. You could also check out our website thestackspodcast.com This episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. Our graphic designers Robin McCreight. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Cherie Marquez https://www.cmediacollective.com/
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