Ep. 297 It’s a Policy of Neglect with Nathan Thrall

Written By Cherie Marquez

Journalist and author Nathan Thrall joins us to discuss his book A Day in the Life of Abed Salama: Anatomy of a Jerusalem Tragedy. Nathan explains why he wanted to tell this story in 2023, and how the events of October 7th changed how his book about life for a Palestinian family was received. Nathan also shares what folks can do to impact change in the Israel-Palestine conflict.

The Stacks Book Club selection for December is Romeo and Juliet by William Shakespeare. We will discuss the book on December 27th with Farah Karim-Cooper.

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08
Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I’m your host Traci Thomas and today we are joined by the author, journalist and essayist Nathan Thrall. His latest book is called A Day in the Life of Ahmed Salama: Anatomy of a Jerusalem Tragedy. It’s an intimate gripping and very human story about the Israel-Palestine struggle through the lens of a deadly bus accident in 2012, outside of Jerusalem. Nathan’s book was published this year on October third, just days before the Hamas attacks on Israel that have led to the most recent violence in Israel Palestine. We talk today about how Nathan’s book has been received in light of these events, how he came to write the story and how he an American born Jew living in Jerusalem navigates his own criticisms of Israel. Don’t forget our book club discussion for December is of William Shakespeare’s Romeo and Juliet, we will be talking about the book on December 27th with Farah Karim-Cooper. Everything we talked about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. Alright, now it is time for my conversation with Nathan Thrall.

All right, everyone, I am very excited. Today I get to speak to an author of a book that I read this year that I just really really loved. His name is Nathan Thrall and the book is called A Day in the Life of Abed Salama: Anatomy of a Jerusalem Tragedy. Nathan, welcome to the Stacks.

Nathan Thrall 2:19
Thank you for having me. I’m thrilled to be here.

Traci Thomas 2:21
I’m really excited to have you I have to be super upfront sometimes. If I don’t tell admit to being nervous about an interview, I can’t get out of my head. So I have to tell you, I’m really nervous to talk to you not because I am nervous to ask you questions about the book, but because we’re also going to talk about what’s going on in Jerusalem, or in Israel and Palestine. And it’s just like such a touchy topic, and I’m not an expert. And you are. And so I’m just a little bit nervous that I’m gonna fuck up and people are going to hate me. So I just want to throw that out there for you. So for a life raft for myself-

Nathan Thrall 2:50
Let’s just make sure that we’re both canceled in every possible venue by the end of this.

Traci Thomas 2:57
This episode’s coming out like a few weeks before the end of the year. So I’m really trying to go out on 2023 with a bang and not have to do the show. I’m trying to retire. Okay, let’s start with the book. We’re where we always start in about 30 seconds or so can you tell folks what the books about?

Nathan Thrall 3:12
Sure, so the book is about a tragic accident involving a school bus full of kindergarteners that occurred in the Jerusalem area where I live. And the bus was struck by a giant semi trailer, it flipped over and caught fire. And it was a very, very long time before the emergency services arrived. And I tell the story of the parents, children, teachers, rescuers, settlers who lived nearby the accident site emergency service personnel. I tell the whole story of Israel-Palestine through this one terrible event.

Traci Thomas 4:03
Yeah, I have a lot of questions. I guess we should just start with why this story. Why I know you wrote an article about it that had the same title, only like 1% of that articles in the book. That’s an all your press material. So I want to know why you wanted to tell this story or use this story to tell your bigger story. And then also why Abed and not one of the other parents or one of the teacher like how did you decide this was the version of the story to tell?

Nathan Thrall 4:34
Yeah, that’s a very good question. So you know, I live about two miles away from where I would set I’m a lives. I live in Jerusalem near the walls of the Old City. And just two miles away is an enclave it’s surrounded by walls on four sides, where the kindergarteners and their parents and teachers ers came from and half of this enclosed enclave where about 130,000 People live today. About half of it is within the municipality of Jerusalem, and half of it is outside of it. And what that means, in practical terms is that Israel considers half of this enclave to be within its sovereign territory and the other half of it to be annexed occupied territory. And this had really important consequences for all of the people involved on the day of the crash. Because if you lived in the one half of the Enclave, you had a blue Jerusalem ID, which allowed you to travel more freely. And if you lived in the other half, like Ovid Salama, does, you have a green West Bank ID, you couldn’t go to Jerusalem and search in the hospitals there for your child. And, for me, the location of the accident really allowed me to unpack this entire, very elaborate system of control that exists, I’m able to show the great inequality that exists just side by side in this in this place where people are living these separate and unequal lives, where there is a 26 foot tall, gray concrete wall, encircling these 130,000 people. And they’re just sitting there right below, you know, the manicured grounds of the most prestigious university in Israel, the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and you’re standing on that campus, and you look down and you see this walled ghetto. And these people are going through checkpoints every morning, to take their children to school to go to their jobs, they are receiving almost no municipal services from the municipality of Jerusalem, even though they’re paying taxes. And it’s so bad that even the emergency services refuse to go in without an army escort. And so I wanted to describe this insane reality that I live in, and that it’s really so very easy to ignore, you know, I live right next to it. But I rarely, if ever went into this enclave. Prior to this accident, I didn’t give it a moment’s thought, even though I drove, you know, feet away from this wall all the time. And after this tragedy happened, I really was struck by the emotional power of the story, that it was it symbolized that terrible neglect. And it’s a deliberate neglect. It’s a policy of neglect, that’s imposed on these people who live on the other side of this wall. And so through the accident, I saw that I could tell really, the whole story of the settlements, the takeover of the land of this community, how they were encircled by a wall, how they live in a permit system, what the consequences of having these permits are on the worst day of a parent’s life. And because, you know, there’s so much information on ISRAEL PALESTINE, it is a flood of information. And if you’re curious, and you want to start learning, it’s intimidating. You know, there’s 100 page report on the most narrow issue of land confiscation, there’s another 100 page report on the permit system and another 100 page report on, you know, the military court system. And I really wanted to present a book and a story to an ordinary person who has some curiosity about this place, doesn’t want to read 700 page, NGO reports about the place and wants to know what is it really mean to live here to be in the shoes of these people, both Jews and Palestinians in this insane system of control?

Traci Thomas 9:15
It’s so what’s really interesting to me. And, you know, your book came out on October 3, which was a coincidence that you could not have predicted, though, I think, maybe you could argue that something similar to what happened on October 7 was bound to happen at some point, you know, this conflict is ongoing. But as I was reading the book, because I finished it on October 6, Oh, wow. And so I wake up on October 7, and I’m like, Holy shit, like, what’s going on? I was just reading about this, you know, but I want to know for you, because I know you don’t just write a book and turn it in and it publishes a week later. How were you thinking that this book would be received? Who were you thinking would receive this book and how Has that changed? Since four days after your book came out?

Nathan Thrall 10:05
Yeah, my world was turned upside down by the events of October 7. And since then, obviously, to a much lesser extent than so many other people have died in the last seven weeks. But, you know, I wrote the book, thinking that there was a real appetite for a more honest conversation about Israel, Palestine, in the US and in Europe, as well. And, you know, there had been a market shift in public opinion in the US, especially among young people, especially among progressive and liberal Jews. And I was really hopeful that this book could be something that all of those people could take and embrace and learn about the reality and, you know, start to see what every visitor to the West Bank actually sees with their own eyes when they go, which happens within minutes or an hour or two, you are just struck by, you know, what a moral catastrophe this place is, right. And I thought that by telling the story, I could really convey that in a visceral way. And after October set, and prior to October 7, so there was every indication that that was happening, you know, I had events lined up with all kinds of synagogues. And I had events, you know, across the political spectrum, from the kind of far left to the center, and not really right wingers. But still, it was a broad spectrum. And, and then, after October 7, it was just a moment of extreme polarization. And there were so many people who were embracing the bulk and organizing events around it, or doing study guides, or all kinds of different things related to the book that just told me, you know, now is not the time, we cannot have a nuanced conversation about occupation, we can’t have a conversation about root causes, you know, people are too angry. They’re, they’re too deeply in grief there. It’s just not possible. And, and, you know, there were other people who organized events who went ahead with them. And they told me, they were going ahead, despite fearing the potential consequences. And those events went really well. And there hadn’t been, you know, when we actually had the events, I had events canceled in five cities. You know, I had radio ads polled for the book that had been running since October 3. And then after October 7, they were pulled from national radio in the US, due to listener complaints. Just everyone was scared to death of some kind of scandal or of you know, upsetting anybody who said, you know, the word Palestinian is offensive to me, you know, please take down this ad. And in normal circumstances, no one would listen to those listener complaints. But after October 7, they did. But I have to say that when I did have these events, and the title character Abbott’s Allama, was with me, in the US, since the beginning of October, we were traveling together, we’re doing events together, we went to the UK together, we came back to the US together. And you know, he would in many of these events, he would tell the story of this day in his life, in his own words, and there would be, you know, hardly a dry eye in the house. And people were deeply grateful, including when it was with, you know, a an audience that was, you know, for example, speaking to a Jewish group that was worried about how the audience would receive it, they were nothing but grateful and, and received it very well. So the gatekeepers have been scared, but most people who have engaged with the book, you know, did so really, really well.

Traci Thomas 14:22
And I think like, I think we should say this because part of your biography, I think that’s really interesting. And one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you is because you are Jewish, you’re an American, you live in Jerusalem, you’ve written this book that I think, you know, depending on what kind of political leaning the speaker has, you could say is, you know, pro Palestinian or anti Israel, but you know, I don’t want to do that. I’ll let people read it and decide what they think. But also, you know, I’m also Jewish, and I, one of the things that’s been really difficult for me, and I’m kind of curious how this has been for you, is that I’m also a black American And a lot of the conversation around what’s happened and a lot of the ways that I’ve been spoken to is like, I’ve had friends reach out to me and say, like, you know, in that week, are you okay? And I’ve sort of been like, well, I’m upset, but I think I’m upset about something that you’re not upset about. Like, I’m I’m actually really upset about what’s happened in Palestine for for years and years and years. And like any terrorist attack, I think we can all agree is, you know, pretty horrible. Yeah. But, but, and then I’ve been told that by supporting Palestine that I am anti semitic. And then I’m like, But wait, I’m Jewish, like, and so I’m curious. And I’m hoping you can get at the nuance on this, because I’ve yet to hear someone talk about this. Can you talk a little bit about the divisions within the Jewish community about what’s going on? Because I remember in your book, you talk about the Mizrahim. And like how certain groups are very in Israel are very pro Palestine, and very anti the Israeli government, and they lived side by side together. And then I hear people tell me, well, the MS. Rahim are the ones who have the claim to the land, and they you know, and so I’m just really curious how this sort of breaks down if there is a breakdown among Jewish circles, and obviously not asking you to speak for every Jewish person, every Israeli, but like, I think that nuance is missing, because all the Jews of color that I know are extremely anti, what Netanyahu is doing, and what has been done in the name of Jews, the violence and all of that stuff. So I’m just really curious if you have kind of insight into that.

Nathan Thrall 16:28
Yeah. So I mean, you know, there are all these, these jokes about the divisive pneus of the Jewish community, you know, that if for any, every, you know, Two Jews, you have three synagogues. And so like the, you know, we could spend the whole time talking about all of the divisions among among Israeli Jews and also American Jews. But you mentioned the Mizrahim, the Jews who come from the East who come from North Africa, and countries in the Middle East. And those Jews collectively are known as Ms. Rahim as Easterners in Israel. And those Jews, for the most part are, you know, voting with the right in Israel, but they have a very complicated relationship with the state because the state was founded mostly by Jews from the former Russian Empire, Ashkenazi Jews from different parts of Europe, but largely from the former Russian Empire. In fact, in the first cabinet of Israel, the first government of Israel 12, out of the 13 ministers were born either in North America or the former Russian Empire. I think one of them was born in North America and the rest of the former Russian Empire. So this is a country of established by immigrants born in another place, and they have a real sense of ownership over the state. And when the Jews, Mizrahi Jews came largely during the 50s and the 60s, the largest group came from Morocco. They were really poorly treated. And they, the Mizrahi Jews have a real resentment toward the Ashkenazi founders of the state and the way that they were treated, you know, as essentially as Arab Jews, and treated as backwards and spoken of as though they were backwards. And there was even the orchestrated abduction of young babies from his rocky families, new immigrants, and the state did not tell them that what they had done with their children, they told them their children had died and they gave them for adoption to Ashkenazi families. And in the last several years, some records have come out from state archives and from journalists who have investigated who have shown the justifications that were given within the Ministry of Health and other parts of the government for this and they were saying explicitly, these kids are going to have a better life living with with Ashkenazi parents, it’s in their own interest. And so one of the characters in the book is the founder of the the settlement of Adam, which is just next to where the bus accident took place. And most of the West Bank settlements are founded and populated by Ashkenazi Jews. And the Adams settle lament was unique because it was founded by a guy, bebber Vanunu, who’s the character in the book who was born in Morocco, and experienced this terrible discrimination against him and his family. And he wanted to create a better life for His people. And he sought out, he sought to emulate the Ashkenazi project of building these settlements in the West Bank, and he created the settlement of Adam really to help his own people. And it’s, it’s a it’s a unique story. So anyway, that’s one of the divisions another you no division are the ultra orthodox Jews were known in Israel as the high redeem. And the ultra orthodox Jews, it’s another very complicated story, because on the one hand, when they’re polled, they express very racist attitudes toward Palestinians, toward Arabs in general, and the, you know, the most racism of any Jewish community. And at the same time, they are in large part, either non Zionist or anti Zionist, meaning that they’re opposed really to the existence of a Jewish state, they don’t think there should be a Jewish state, they think it was a sacrilege to have created a Jewish state, which should only be done by the will of God and not by the acts of man. And so they have this religious objection to the creation of Israel and a very complicated relationship with the state. And now today, a lot of the, you know, prior to October 7, there were these huge protests against the government. And they were against these judicial reforms that were being put through, and a big subtext of those protests was the feeling among kind of the secular middle and upper middle class in Israel, that the country was going toward theocracy, the, the heart Adeem, the Haredi population was growing. They were not serving in the army, the men for for working at very low rates in the workforce, the Haredi women were working, and the economy was going to implode if this continued, because all the projections show that the Ardene would be a huge portion of the Israeli population, and in a couple dozen years. So. So a big part of this protest movement against the government and against the judicial reform was really a kind of anti religious protest, which was also expressing a great deal of resentment toward the settlers, and the settlers or their own subgroup. And they’re really, you know, the ideologues behind the settler movement. There are all kinds of settlers that are middle class, you know, normal secular settlers who just want a cheaper house and are, you know, buying a bigger home having a larger home than they could have elsewhere. Because the government provides all these incentives for people to live in the settlements. And it’s really seamless, it doesn’t feel any different than living in a different suburb. But the ideologues behind the movement to the so called National Religious, they’re religious, but hyper nationalistic and very Zionist, and a lot of the resentment in the judicial reform protests, the anti judicial reform protests, what was against the the national, religious, as well as the harradine. So those are the the kind of those are several of this kind of major subgroups within Israel. And then the other are kind of the secular mainstream, which, you know, is mainly center right center left and its orientation. And their bottom line is, you know, Israel was created to be a safe haven for Jews, and it needs to have a Jewish majority no matter what. And so this whole settlement project and the occupation, you know, at some point it has to end or else we’re going to lose the Jewish majority, the whole reason that we created this place, and the whole Zionist dream is going to crumble. And the thing is that when they’ve been in power, they haven’t really done anything to advance toward that vision toward creating a Palestinian state. And in fact, the center left in Israel are the ones who created the settlements. They were the ones who were at the head of the settlement project for the first 10 years after After Israel conquered the West Bank and Gaza. So, broadly speaking, those are kind of the main divisions within within Israel.

Traci Thomas 25:12
Okay, this is sort of a piggyback maybe not, what do you make of the sort of strange bedfellows that this has made? Like I think of like a lot of celebrities in America who have become, like, ideologically aligned with really right wing conservative people in America? Or, or that there are, you know, like, I think maybe this happens a lot during conflict that different people end up, you know, a broken clock is right, twice a day or whatever, like that kind of thing. We’re seeing this. I guess, I’m not sure the exact way to say it. But I guess seeing what’s happening in Israel and Palestine. I’ve realized that people that I thought I agreed with uncertain things are so far from me on on this topic, or vice versa, people that I never would have thought I agree with, I’m like, Oh, that is exactly what I said to my mom. So I’m wondering, like, what you what you make of that, because I think it is sort of a challenge to American liberalism or progressive is progressivism that, that there’s all of a sudden these maybe cracks in the foundation that we’re seeing that have come up? I think like, you know, morally, as you mentioned, like, what’s happening in Israel is morally pretty awful. And a lot of people who I would say are generally like a moral compass for me are agreeing with what’s happening. And so I’m just wondering, like, kind of what you make of that dissonance, maybe not necessarily in Israel, but in America, and what you’re seeing and like the media portrayal, and all of that, that’s a big question.

Nathan Thrall 26:55
So, you know, if I could I just want to back up to the end of my last one, because I said, those are the divisions within Israel, broadly speaking, but I should have said, those are the divisions among Israeli Jews, broadly speaking. And in addition, you have Palestinians, of course, and Palestinians, you know, under Israeli rule, you have 7 million Jews, who are Israeli citizens, you have 7 million Palestinians. And the vast majority of those Palestinians don’t have basic civil rights. Those are the Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza. And in addition, you have these other categories as well, which are Palestinian citizens of Israel, who are over 20% of the population of Israel. And they are totally alienated from this whole intra Zionist debate about how do we preserve a Jewish majority, how do we fight the quote unquote, demographic threat of Arab population growth, and, and they really are struggling, the Palestinian citizens of Israel are struggling to just put on the agenda, the notion of equality, full equality and individual and collective rights. So just to give the full picture there now, so help me understand a little bit better the your question about, about the about the US. So what you’re seeing on one hand, is you’re seeing people who are I mean, they’re there. This is one of the few things where we have an actual acronym in the US for many years is Pep, right? Progressive accepts Palestine, it’s its own category, it’s the all of these people who are self identified liberals, but when it comes to Palestine, when it comes to Israel, then suddenly they are toeing an ideological line. That doesn’t sound very progressive, because it is saying, Well, of course, we need to have an ethno national state with a Jewish majority and special privileges for Jews and that’s justified in this way and that way. Yes. So that’s a that’s an old phenomenon and what it what really it’s October since October 7, it’s it’s highlighted. You know, how great that contradiction is on one hand, and also how big that group is, because, you know, before October 7, those people would kind of be either silent or they would say, you know, yes, it’s terrible and I you know, I, I don’t really have that much to say on Israel-Palestine anymore. Anyway, Israel’s drifted so far to the right I can’t justify it. But really, when it comes down to it, they are going to justify it when they’re forced to and that’s what October said, and has done it’s shown that the center left of the American Jewish community is not really willing to question some very fundamental tenants of their belief system. And and and, you know, again, I think that a lot of this has to do with mis education. I think that so many of these people and in Israel as well don’t know their basic history. And so there are all kinds of just basic facts that people are shocked by when they learn. So for example, one of the central talking points of the kind of progressive except Palestine, the PAP crowd in the US is, Israel has made nothing but generous offers to the Palestinians, they’ve rejected every one. And in 1948, Israel established, you know, declared independence and established a Jewish state, and the Arab states came in and attacked, and there was this giant refugee problem that was created through that war, but it’s really the fault of the Arabs, because, you know, depending on how progressive the vision is, either they’re such anti Semites, they couldn’t stand there being a Jewish state, or they’ll say, you know, that it’s the Arabs fault for, you know, initiating this war. And if you tell them, that actually, prior to Israel’s Declaration of Independence in May 1948, there was already a civil war raging between Jews and palace and Palestinians in Historic Palestine. And prior to the Declaration of Independence, already, some 250,000 or more refugees had been Palestinians had been displaced, expelled or forced to flee from their homes, at least a third of all of those who were forcibly displaced in the 1948 War. You know, it wasn’t the case that they were all displaced and expelled after the Arab States invaded. That’s just a kind of a basic historical facts that every historian knows, and many Israelis do not know, many American Jews do not know. Similarly, you know, they’re American Jews and Israelis are told of kind of very cursory history of Israel between the end of the Second Temple and the establishment of the State of Israel. And you sweep over all of that, and you just say, there’s been a continuous press Jewish presence in in, you know, the land of Israel since since the Second Temple. But what was the size of that right Jewish presence and how many Jews were there at the start of this conflict, which began with a political idea called Zionism, when the first Zionist settlers arrived in Palestine in 1882, the Jewish population was less than 5%. Again, that is just the most basic fact, you know, the more than 90% of the population is opposed, of course, to the idea of immigrants from the Russian Empire coming and establishing a state for Jews with special privileges for Jews not coming as immigrants to live in equality and a state for all its citizens, but coming to create their own state for themselves against the will of more than 90% of the population that casts a totally different light on this entire conflict. And so, again, I just really feel like so much of this boils down to mis education.

Traci Thomas 34:05
Okay, I want to ask you. So as I mentioned, I’m a black American, I’m also Jewish, and something that has felt sort of deja vu II is that I remember summer 2020, when a lot of white Americans and white people around the world discovered racism, and they also discovered my podcast at that same time, and they decided they were going to listen to black women. And it was this whole thing. And when people would ask, you know why now, because America has had racism For centuries, people would say, Well, you know, COVID we had to pay attention to this George Floyd video, we had to sit and watch this nine plus minute video of this man being killed for us to really see it. And because we’re all at home, we can really think about what white people will have done and it’s been horrible. Flash forward to 2023. Just it’s not, it’s not the same, we don’t seem to still remember that we’re supposed to be listening to black people, we don’t seem to remember that all this is going on, you know, the numbers in the DEI offices, they’re not great. And I have had a bit of a deja vu around this because I feel that what I’ve seen in America is all of a sudden, everybody cares about Israel and Palestine, whether you want a free Palestine, or you believe that, you know, the Israelis are being persecuted, and there’s all this anti semitism and an either side or both sides or however you want to look at it. There’s this really enthusiastic concern about what’s going on. And I’m just curious to you, or I’m curious to ask you, do you feel like what we’re seeing is a genuine, long lasting change in what’s been going on in Israel? Or do we think that there’s some there’s a reason why this particular these particular events, and this year are the ones that people care about? Just like racism in America, you could have cared five years ago, but now this, this is this moment. So I’m just wondering what you think of October 7, being this moment. And if you think this will last in a year, we’ll still be talking about this, if this will have made a major shift in this relationship between Israel and Palestine and its impact on the world, etc.

Nathan Thrall 36:30
Yeah. So I would say a few things. One is there is no doubt that October 7, and the war in Gaza are a major, major historic event in the Israel-Palestine conflict, and it will have decades long repercussions, and probably will have major repercussions also in the US, and in terms of US public opinion. However, it is definitely the case that everything that there is to be upset about in Israel, Palestine existed prior to October sevens. And just as you as you point out with George Floyd, I mean, we have had decades of ethnic domination by Jews over Palestinians. And many of the people who are now awakening to that reality, they could have been focused on it prior to October sevens. And for me, you know, thinking about the US and what the effects of this war going to be. It’s really confusing picture, I really don’t know, what we’re seeing what’s temporary, what’s permanent. Because on the one hand, you know, my own personal experience has been seeing, you know, radio ads pulled up just because it’s a, you know, the most basic radio ad that’s has the word Palestinian in it, and having events canceled, and this is not, you know, a polemical book. This is a work of narrative nonfiction, it’s showing the lives of Jews and Palestinians, and people are afraid to have that event. So my personal experience has been seeing the elite and the gatekeepers really fearful. On the other hand, when I go to universities, and I talk to younger people, they all tell me, they’ve never felt that there’s been stronger support for Palestinian rights. And I think that there’s just an enormous generational gap. And, and how that’s gonna play out? I don’t know, but it really does seem that a lot of people are being educated now about Israel, Palestine are learning about Israel, Palestine, they’re learning about how important it is for them to know about it as Americans because American America has been funding it. Right. And, and so I think it will be really important. If this generational shift lasts, one of the issues is that there’s a huge discrepancy in Who cares how much people care about a given issue. So now there’s a war in Gaza, and you have lots of different coalition’s forming, calling for a ceasefire, opposed to Israeli policy, and that’s significant. But if you’re thinking about really a big change in US policy toward Israel, Palestine, something like conditioning aid to Israel or you know, forcing Israel to choose either You give equal rights or you enter the occupation, one or the other, we’re not going to keep supporting you for decades as you gobble up the land and don’t give equal rights and continue to have an occupation. So whether that kind of shifts can happen, really depends on how much these people who are engaged now can be relied upon to engage when there’s not a war in Gaza, because the truth of the matter is that, you know, it really only takes a very committed group who really disproportionately cares about an issue to have a huge influence. And if we’re in some future, a year from now, where ISRAEL PALESTINE is very far from the front page of the news, it’s going to come back to basically, you know, the Jewish American community in the United States having a really disproportionate voice on this issue, as well as to some degree, the Palestinian and Arab community, but a much smaller, much less influential voice. And everybody else, you know, you can point to where they stood now in October and November 2023. But it doesn’t really amount to much because they’re not going to vote on it, they’re not going to, you know, they’re not going to, you know, vote out this congressional primary candidate because of the awful stance they took on Palestine. Although it’s such a big issue today, it’s possible to imagine that that could happen. And we see all of these Arab Americans who are saying, I cannot vote for Biden, I cannot vote for Biden after how he is giving a green light to stopping fuel, electricity, water to two plus million innocent people. And they’re saying, I’m a Democrat, I loathe Trump, and I don’t care. I cannot. This man is giving a green light to the worst atrocities against my people.

Traci Thomas 42:04
Right. Okay. Let me ask you this. How is this event? How was October 7 and the fallout that we’ve seen in the war in Gaza, and in America’s relation to ship to it different if Trump is president?

Nathan Thrall 42:17
Is our friend how would it how would these events now play out if Trump had been pressed-

Traci Thomas 42:23
If Trump had been the president in October on October 7 2023? What do you see? Do you see a difference? If so, what?

Nathan Thrall 42:35
He’s so unpredictable. It’s it’s very, really hard to say? Because, you know, I remember that when he was first running for president, there were a lot of people, pro Palestinian folks in the US, who were shocked at the things that he was saying in the primary debates, which you could not say in American politics, right. And he was essentially saying, you know, the US needs to come in and impose a solution. And that’s something that, you know, American politicians don’t say. So I just want to caveat caveat, whatever I say about Trump with, you know, the fact that he’s really wildly unpredictable. But, you know, based on his behavior during his first term, it would probably be very similar to what Biden is doing. Now. You could imagine he might be even more, you know, gung ho in his support of Israel, but practically, I think it would be very, very similar.

Traci Thomas 43:39
Okay. I have to ask you this question. And I’m curious, I’m curious what you say. Who are you, Nathan thrall to tell this story. Do you worry that because you’re American, because you’re Jewish, that this isn’t your story to tell? Or that there’s like some sort of white savior, thing? Like, how does all of that resonate with you? Because before, I’ll just be frank, before I read the book, I was like, Who’s this guy? I’m like, bathe in thrall doesn’t sound like a Palestinian. And then, you know, I was like, he’s definitely not. And I didn’t know you were Jewish. At the time. I didn’t do any research. So I didn’t think I’m gonna have you on the show. To be honest. I was like, Well, I’m just gonna read the book and see how I like it. Yeah. And then since reading the book, and then the events of October 7, the knowing so many Palestinian journalists have been killed members of the press, like, I just, I don’t think I can have you on and not ask you about that part of the story. So I’m really curious what you think.

Nathan Thrall 44:36
Yeah, that’s a totally legitimate question. So, you know, my basic feeling is that, you know, this particular story this accident occurred in 2012. It wasn’t going to get told by somebody else. I don’t feel like I was elbowing anybody else aside, prevent renting someone else from telling this story. You know, in my own personal life, I have many friends who are Palestinian writers and journalists and and I know how much they struggle to have a voice and how much they struggle to be treated equally when they want to appear on a TV news program and how when they appear, they’re asked, Do you condemn x as the first question? And whenever and Israeli goes on? They’re not asked that same question. And, and so, you know, all I can say is, is that, you know, I was trying to do the best that I could, as a journalist, to tell this story in the most, the most honest and, and real way that I that I possibly could, I felt that the characters that are the subjects of the book, really trusted me. And I have felt an obligation to do justice, to their story. And to that trust. And the other thing is, like, this book is not about me, the book is there is no memoir, there’s no I in the book, there is no, even like my own analysis, or, you know, historical viewpoint, it’s all told through the eyes of the characters, that’s the big constraint that I put on myself was that really, this was supposed to be immersive, and really put you closely inside the thoughts and feelings of these people. And, and so I’m not coming at it, trying to, you know, it’s not I’m not making it about myself. And in fact, I really have an aversion. There’s a whole genre of writing in the US, among American Jews, which is this, this kind of what I call the, you lied to be at Camp Roma, there’s like, a whole, you know, dozens of articles that can fit under this heading. And what it is, is it’s young American Jews, who are slowly learning the facts about Israel, Palestine, and expressing Justified Anger toward their leaders toward their camp counselors, toward the leaders of the Jewish community, who sold them a bill of goods about Israel, Palestine, and all of these talking points that turned out to be pretty false. And the thing that I hate about that genre is that it’s again, it’s, it’s not wrong to have that feeling. And it’s not wrong to say it. But it’s almost as though there’s more anger expressed toward the people who’ve mis educated them, then toward the actual system, right, that was hidden from them that they should be outraged about. And, and so I’m totally sensitive to the concern that, you know, an American Jewish author could be, you know, the wrong person to tell a given story. And I just hope that my own, you know, writing speaks for itself and shows that I’m not I’m not coming at it in that way.

Traci Thomas 48:29
Okay, this is a hard shift. Everyone gets these questions. For me, it’s a really hard shift. How do you right, where are you? How often? Are there snacks and beverages? Are there rituals set the scene?

Nathan Thrall 48:43
Yeah. So I am quite rigid and ritualistic about writing. For me, research and writing are two totally distinct phases. And there’s research where I’m just meeting, interviewing, vacuuming up information, collecting court reports, etc. And then there is a long period that my wife teases me about as essentially glorified procrastination, but that that’s the period when I’m really just like sitting by myself. And thinking about structure. I’m thinking about what’s going in what’s going out what order how do I solve structural problems, because this book was the largest structural challenge I’ve ever faced. I mean, it was extremely difficult because the whole concept is a narrative, a chronological narrative of a single, you know, basically day long event, right? This tragic bus crash, and each at the same time, you can’t have people just cannot run readers cannot keep too many characters in their head at one time. So you can’t have somebody dart in at, you know, 9am, or, you know, chapter one. And then the same person darts in, you know, at 11am. several chapters later, you’ve forgotten who they are, you have to reintroduce them. It’s too complicated. So you had to choose what is the most relevant point at which a person enters the story. And you basically deal with that person, wholly in that moment, and you exclude their other interactions with the accident, and at the same time, so that’s one layer of complication. And then beyond that, is that each of these people have a deep history. They have a history of expulsion in 1948, and the story of Palestinian exile, or the story of, you know, the Mizrahi Jews who came, and the founding of the settlement. And that also, you know, you need to think about what makes sense to tell which story in what order and sometimes it’s actually their backstory is the more important aspect of a given character. So those were the two kinds of timelines that I was trying to juggle and balance. And that was this very long period of procrastination before, saying, Okay, I’m close enough to having a structure that I can start writing. And then the writing itself, I have to write first thing in the morning. And I’m a total prima donna about it. Like if if something happens, where my you know, schedule gets screwed up, and I have to do other things in the morning. And I’ve like, now it’s been, you know, for waking hours, even if I woke up at six, and it’s 10am. And like, my day is shot, it’s really, I cannot sit and write down, I need a clear head, I’m thinking about all the bullshit that I had to deal with. And my day is shot. So this is my excuse for being a total prima donna about getting out of bed. And so during writing time, I actually will set an alarm, I’ll go to bed earlier and earlier every night, and I’ll set alarms for you know, when it’s still dark out, you know, sometimes for something, sometimes five something in the morning, and, but I’ll get I do sleep, well, I do get a full eight hours of sleep. So I’ll just go to bed early. And and then I will go I have neighbors who live very close to me or gone half the year. And I’ve written both of my books basically in their empty apartment. And so I’ll go in the dark walk block away, enter their place, and do my very best not to check my email, or look at Twitter or anything else. And really just open up the material and start writing. And then once I start to get into a rhythm, then I can actually like start to plot out like okay, I’m doing basically 1000 words a day, I’m going to be done with a draft at point x. And then it’s it becomes really, I don’t know, like very mechanical almost in in terms of having a regimen and then I don’t even take days off. I just like I’m determined to finish the project at a given time and at least have the first draft and then editing is much looser, it’s that that can happen. doesn’t have to happen first thing in the morning. But But yeah, though, that was the process. So the actual writing I did in a very short and intensive time.

Traci Thomas 53:35
So I think I know the answer to this, but I’m assuming you don’t have any food or beverages while you’re doing this intense writing.

Nathan Thrall 53:42
Oh, no, I definitely have coffee I very dependent on caffeine. And so I will have Yeah, usually I will have like a quick breakfast. Often I’ll start the writing and then I’ll have a breakfast like in the middle of it. And the coffee happens right away as soon as I wake up. You know, two shots and espresso and I’m okay.

Traci Thomas 54:07
Okay, you can stay on the shot. I was getting really nervous. I was like we’re gonna have to kick them off. What about any words you can’t spell on the first try? Hmm. Or are you a good speller?

Nathan Thrall 54:19
I think I’m a good speller but there are some words there are some words that I often what is it that I often misspell? I can’t remember. But but but there are a couple of words that I that I always have to like triple check because there are two different spellings of them and I mixed them up-

Traci Thomas 54:44
Okay, that’s sort of acceptable. We really like terrible spellers around here like if you really want my listeners to like you and you gotta tell them that you can’t spell like walk or something great.

Nathan Thrall 54:53
I see. I’ll tell you what I do have issues with is is commerce. I am I’m sure I’m like, gosh, I can really I can really have a lot of vacillation about whether a comma is necessary. And in this book in particular, I really tried to tell myself like, forget about grammar, just, if the comma isn’t needed to read the sentence, well, don’t use it, I really wanted to have many fewer comments then grammar might call for.

Traci Thomas 55:28
I personally believe that grammar is a suggestion. And if you want to call out, you would get a comment. Sometimes I just put in a colon, I don’t even know what to call it does. But sometimes I’ll just use one. Crazy. So I know we talked about at the very, very beginning, you were saying that part of the reason you wanted to write this book in this way is because there’s so much information in there, you could read 100 pages on one tiny little one, you know, rule or law, or you could read these histories that are 700 pages, or whatever, I’m going to ask you to recommend to people some other books, or shows or podcasts or whatever, that are in conversation with what you’ve done here. And normally, I would let people like recommend anything, but I’m gonna put a small constraint on you and ask you to recommend things specifically about Israel-Palestine.

Nathan Thrall 56:12
Okay. So one thing that I would recommend is a documentary film called the law in these parts. And this is a movie about the occupation. And it’s done in the most basic way with it has a bunch of archival footage, but what it really features is it features the judges of the military court system of the Israeli military court system, who are explaining basically the whole system and the policies that they put in place, and they are grappling in this movie live on screen with their own guilt, complicity, lack of guilt, in clearly a system that is so unjust, and many of them are rationalizing it and justifying it in the film. And I think it is the best documentary ever done on the occupation. It’s superb the law in these parts and overall diplomatic history of Israel Palestine, that is superb is by the slime. And it’s called the iron wall. And if you want to read one book that kind of tells you the whole history of Israel, Palestine, it’s a superb book by a historian at Oxford. Another book that is like the kind of definitive Palestinian overall history is is by Rashid Halladay. And it’s called the 100 100 years war on Palestine. And another book that I would recommend or set of books that I would recommend are by Rajesh shahada, who has just written a number of really beautiful, intimate, often memoir, free books about life in Ramallah, and the story of his family came from Jaffa. And those are very good, the short stories of Sam can a fanny, who was a leading Palestinian writer, novelist, and also critic and was a spokesperson at one point for the PFLP. He was assassinated by Israel and is a marvelous writer and I highly, highly recommend his works.

Traci Thomas 58:56
Amazing, I actually read, we could have been friends. My father and I, the same week that I read your book, again, coincidentally, right before October 7th. But that was my first that was my first of his work. And I know he’s written a lot of other stuff. But anyways, okay, two questions. One is what do you hope people will keep in mind as they read your book.

Nathan Thrall 59:23
I mean, the real thing that I want them to understand is that this world that it describes is here today, and that we are paying for it we as Americans are paying for it. And I don’t think anybody who reads this book wants to have any part of the system and and and we are fully, fully responsible. Not as responsible as the State of Israel, but we are very complicit in this system. We are funding the system. We are backing the system up we’re it shoeing vetoes at the UN Security Council to keep this system propped up. And I want people to think about the fact that this is a story not just about a faraway place, but it’s a story that is part of us. It is an American story, also, because of our own role in creating this system.

Traci Thomas 1:00:22
What are we supposed to do not pay taxes, like, just call our representatives, it feels very frustrating, because I, of course, don’t want anything to do with this. But I’m also like, I’m not at the UN, nobody asked me to vote, like, what am I supposed to do, Nathan?

Nathan Thrall 1:00:36
Yeah. I mean, one thing is, we, you, we really need to make our voices heard to our elected representatives, because they do not hear from people who are the all those people who are now calling for a ceasefire, they don’t hear from them, they hear from one side, all of the organizing happens on one side. And there is such a disproportionate, you know, level of power for the pro Israel side in the US versus the other side. And it’s not just with, with who the congressperson hears from, how many complaints the office gets, how much lobbying they receive, it’s in all kinds of other domains. You know, when I’ve written op eds, for the New York Times on Israel, Palestine, those editors have told me, you know, this is gonna be a giant headache, because anytime we publish on Israel, Palestine, from someone like you, we are gonna get inundated with fake complaints that are demanding corrections, they’re really just trying to give us a headache. And so they’re framing their ideological objection as a factual one, because they know that’s the game they have to play to get a correction. Every time they failed, they haven’t gotten a correction, but out of me, but still, they flood these editors with these demands. And the editors then spend two weeks addressing all of this historical minutiae that they don’t know about. And then they’re emailing me to ask me, How do you respond to this and whatever? And like, I’d just rather not publish on this issue. But if they publish the pro Israel op ed, there is no parallel thing. So it’s a it’s there’s a deterrence that that takes place. There’s a big cost to you in publishing views like mine, and there’s no cost and publishing or little cost comparatively, in publishing the pro Israel view. And so that exists across the kind of cultural space. And I My hope is that what we’re seeing today with all of these young people who are saying things you never heard Americans say about Israel-Palestine before is going to change that. And so I think that whatever domain you’re in, if you’re in academia, if you’re in the media, if you’re you know, in politics, even in your own workplace, you know, all of those places I feel like are places where it needs to be said and said loudly, and for it to be normal to express support for the freedom of the Palestinian people and the opposition to the US role in keeping them oppressed.

Traci Thomas 1:03:29
Okay, last one, if you could have one person dead or alive, read A Day in the Life of Abed Salama, who would you want it to be?

Nathan Thrall 1:03:36
Hmm. The first person that comes to mind is Barack Obama, actually, because I know that he’s filled with regret about the past about what he could have done differently. I think he said that quite recently. And, and I’d like I feel like this is the kind of book that would really speak to him.

Traci Thomas 1:04:10
Well, he has not released his end of your list at the time of recording. So maybe he’s read it. Fingers crossed, fingers crossed. Nathan, this was just such a good conversation. Thank you so much for your generosity with your time and also just answering all of my questions because normally I really stick to the book but I was like we got an expert it’s very newsy we’ll do it. People you can get the book. Now wherever you get your books. It is I think it’s on my gift guide. I think it’s a great gift for that uncle or aunt or maybe your cousin that you’re like, I’m tired of seeing their weird Instagram post or like they’ve been on Facebook saying stuff. I don’t agree. Wrap this up for the holidays. Slide it under the menorah slide and under the tree. Give it on Kwanzaa. I don’t know. Happy New Year, Uncle John, read this book. Nathan, thank you so much for being here.

Nathan Thrall 1:05:00
Thank you so much for having me. It’s really a pleasure.

Traci Thomas 1:05:02
And everyone else we will see you in the stacks.

Alright. That does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening and thank you again to Nathan Thrall for joining the show. I’d also like to thank Emily Lavelle for helping to make this conversation possible. Remember, the next book club pick for December is Romeo and Juliet by William Shakespeare which we will discuss on December 27th with Farah Karim-Cooper. If you love the stacks and you want insight access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack. Make sure you’re subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you’re listening through Apple podcasts, be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from the stacks follow us on social media at the stacks pod on Instagram threads and tik tok and at the stacks pod underscore on Twitter. And you can check out our website thestackspodcast.com This episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight. the stacks was created and produced by me Traci Thomas.

Cherie Marquez https://www.cmediacollective.com/
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