Ep. 260 Bad Feminist by Roxane Gay -- The Stacks Book Club (Shanita Hubbard)

Written By Megan Caballero

Professor and Ride or Die author Shanita Hubbard returns to discuss the 2014 book of essays Bad Feminist by Roxane Gay for The Stacks Book Club. We look back at the collection and ask, how did the book hold up? Its mix of personal memoir, political commentary and pop culture references have us examining our relationship to the text from a new perspective in this spoiler-free episode.

Be sure to listen to the end of today’s episode to find out what our book club pick will be for April 2023.

 
 

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TRANSCRIPT
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Traci Thomas 0:09
Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I’m your host Traci Thomas and it is the Stacks Book Club day. Today we welcome back Shanita Hubbard, professor and author of the book Ride or Die: A Feminist Manifesto for the Well Being of Black Women. She’s here to join me in discussing Roxane Gay’s seminal essay collection Bad Feminist, Bad Feminist was released to much acclaim in 2014. Its sharp, hilarious commentary and insight has held its place in feminist culture ever since. Today, Shanita and I discuss how the book has aged and the ways conversations on gender, race and pop culture have evolved since its publication. We also talked about Roxane Gay as a writer and a public persona. There are no spoilers in today’s episode. Make sure you listen through to the end of the episode to find out what our April book club pick will be. Quick reminder, everything we talked about on each episode of the show can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love the stacks and want more of it, like our incredible community on Discord, our bonus episodes, our monthly meetups to discuss our book club picks and more, you must join the stacks pack on Patreon. It’s just $5 a month and you got all of that plus, you get to know that you’re a part of making this black woman run independent podcast a reality every single week. The truth is I could not make this show without the Stacks pack. So if you want to support the stacks, head to patreon.com/the stacks and join now shout out to our newest members of the stacks pack. Resist booksellers, Rene agatsuma, Darien Letta. And Rachel Burns. Thank you all so much, and thank you to the entire stacks back. Alright, now it’s time for my conversation with Shanita Hubbard about Roxane Gay’s essay collection Bad Feminist.

All right, everybody it is the Stacks book club day it is our March book club pick Bad Feminist essays by Roxane Gay. And we are joined again by the wonderful Shanita Hubbard whose book is Ride or Die Shanita Welcome back. Hi.

Shanita Hubbard 2:09
Good to be that. I’m so excited.

Traci Thomas 2:12
You’re here to talk about this book. For folks who are listening. Let me just give you a quick sort of rundown about the book and then Shanita and I will dive in. So Bad Feminist is a collection of essays from Roxane Gay. It was written in 2014. The essays are mostly cultural criticism with a bent towards feminism or I should say with a bent towards Roxane Gay’s experiences as a woman and as a Black woman. But it’s a lot of cultural criticism, I would say overall, that’s sort of the gist, we’ll start where we always start, which is, generally what did you think of the book?

Shanita Hubbard 2:45
Okay, so I read it twice. Right? I read when it first came out. And then that was long before I was an author, right? And then I read it again recently, because actually, the audiobook, I listened to the audiobook recently to brush up for the podcast, and I’m for our conversation. And of course, I knew there were like, tons of things that I would let Oh, yeah, forgot about that. But it shocked me because I’m like, it feels like such a different book to me now at this stage of my life, as an author who intentionally centers the most marginalized amongst us in our work, and are intentional about centering black woman. And I’m also intentionally about a potential messenger and queer black woman and trans black woman. Right. So if it was a different experience to me at this stage in my life,

Traci Thomas 3:31
yeah. So here’s my big takeaway. I have never I had never read this book. So this was my first time reading a book that people talk about all of the time. I mean, it’s like Roxane Gay comma, Bad Feminist. Like, it’s like, that’s what people know her as right. And so I was thinking I was going to pick up this book, and it was going to be sort of like, not the same as, but sort of like Sister Outsider in the sense that like, what was in the book would stand the test of time. And I didn’t realize how much this book was about pop culture references. So I didn’t realize how much of this book was going to feel dated just from the references, you know, like, just from the things she was talking about. And I think like, her writing has gotten better over the last nine years. I think that my own understanding of feminism, and like what you’re talking to about being like a black woman, and feminism has grown so much beyond what’s in this book. And that’s not to take away that I actually think a lot of the reason why that’s happened is because of this book. And like because people have been able to have these conversations and have been having them for the last nine years through the lens of this book, but reading it now and 2023 I was like this shit feels a little basic, and it feels a little white. Like there was so much white media discussed in this book. And I actually, you know, I’m of two minds of that one mind is sort of like good for Roxane Gay, she should be able to talk about all the media she wants to talk about whenever she wants to, regardless of her own personal identity. But on the flip side, when we get to the section that’s like, race, I was like, Wait, so we’re saving all of the black art for the race section, or most of the black art. So, you know, I was sort of mixed about it. And like, I think this book ends up being sort of a period piece more than like something that withstands the test of time. All of that to say, is not actually to shit on Roxane Gay at all. And it’s sort of to thank her for helping move the conversation. If, if that makes sense. I don’t know if that resonates with you

Shanita Hubbard 5:44
No, I 100% feel you the reason why I was thinking about this so much is because some of the things that I was like, about I don’t know if that’s more about me, or more about her, right, I remember like, when my when I was my write my book, like, ride or die and feminist manifesto for the well being of black woman, you’re never going to come to a single solitary page in my book, and not understand that black women are centered in my book. And I’m doing this intentionally. Because like, with you, I know how you grew up, right. But in my school, from elementary, all the way up into I went to an HBCU. I was not centered in that literature at all. And that freedom I put on television, I’m not centered in that. Right.

Traci Thomas 6:26
It’s short, short, it’s like not even 200 pages.

Shanita Hubbard 6:37
I’m just laughing because my daughter that was like a trash review. So if you ever come to the East Coast, like its own site with my daughter, she was like, Oh my God, you got beef, a 13 year old. So I thought it was really fun. Maybe this was a really smart boundary view. But anyway, that was so like, what’s in my page, this is I’m gonna be very intentional to make sure that black woman I’m centering now. And my feminism is very intersectional. And I’m always looking to, I’m trying to do my best to look from that through the most marginalized lens, right? So I remember when I was writing my book, my and that was very clear. When I was calling when I was going back to my book deal. I was like, No, I need a black editor. She has to be a black woman like black and black. Not like Stacey Dash black, right. But like, because I was like, I don’t want to explain pieces of myself to her as I’m writing. I’m just not doing this anywhere to get it. But I’ve got all the stuff. So my tip as a black woman, and there was things that I would write and then she would be like clarify this clarify this. And I was like, I am not writing a book will little notes in it for white women. I’m just not doing it. And she was pushed back. I’m a black woman. I don’t even know what this means. She was like to be in this ironic way. She was like there’s going to be black woman who are not from New York or not from LA, or maybe from Middle America, and they want to understand and connect but doesn’t make them less black. They just means they don’t want you know, they had a different experience as a black woman they knew, right, but they still won with Okay, so whenever I did clarify, I was writing when I was writing for the black woman in like Middle America, they might not get it right. So as I’m reading her book, I was like, okay, like, how can I explain this, like, Roxane Gay? Like, we have vastly different backgrounds. Like for example, in my book, I talked about you know, while most of my peers were were devouring Sweet Valley High books with like, Jessica and Elizabeth. I mean, yes, I was reading those, but I was also getting busy with Donald goings book, right? So I’m very engineer and Roxane Gay. And she’s talking about her love, you know, how much she really loves. Like, that’s really high books, like a big fan like so our our backgrounds are very different in a lot of different ways. So I had, so we she didn’t make a lot of references that I don’t understand. My grounding, will watch the shows I can get. It’s hard for me to fall on them hurt us. I’m gonna stop. So I remember thinking I was like, is she talking to white women? Am I supposed to get in where I fit in and wait to the end? She specifically talking to me because I like to know that she’s specifically talking to me, because that’s not the case in media. That’s not the case in most literature. So I’m just like, you know, am I supposed to get what I fit in? Right? And she’s specifically talking to me is this book for, you know, like white woman and maybe me as parenthetically whatever, just by the way, but what I’m what I said, I don’t know if this was me or her, right? Why we struggle with that because I think as much as I say, black woman, we’re not a monolith. We’re my monolith. I have to remember that. We’re not like her writing and her shows and everything is different, because that’s our experience. That’s who she is. But she still experiences the world, navigates the world as a black woman, you know, at the same way I do. Right? So I was just like, Okay, so these are the things that I’m, I’m thankful for that because it helped me to like, flush out how I was feeling about that. But I certainly because again, again, my preference or Still, if you asked me about who are some of my favorite books I love the reason why, you know, John Morgan was my, you know, still is like one of my favorites. Like, I need to know that you’re not just talking to me as a black woman, you talking to me as a black woman from the hood? Like, look, listen to this, like really specific. That’s what I? And that’s just my preference.

Traci Thomas 10:17
Right? Yeah, no, I think it’s interesting to think about audience with this book, also, because so many of these pieces were published in other outlets before they were put into this book. So she was writing for the rumpus, or she was writing for The Washington Post a review of a movie. And that’s a totally different audience than, you know, whoever she then intends to read bad feminist. And I think that that’s really interesting, too, because some of the essays felt even less connected to this idea of bad feminism or being a bad feminist than others. And I think like, you can feel that as you’re reading them that like the audience, for some of these is like, generally people who have seen this movie, right, or like, generally people who have read this book, and like nothing to do with feminism. I mean, we usually talked about the title at the end, but I sort of think it is a good place to start today. Just to kind of frame the rest of our conversation because I think that the title itself Bad Feminist is a fantastic title. But I don’t think that what’s in this book matches the title. I would say, like half of the essays, I could be like, yes, there’s a direct connection to the title. And half of them. I’m just like, this could be in a book called, I watch 2000 times television, or like, a book called Roxane Gay tells you about culture, like, it had nothing to do with feminism, except for that she is a self proclaimed bad feminist. So I don’t know what your thoughts were on, like, just the title.

Shanita Hubbard 12:00
See, this is? So my thoughts on the title, like, I’ve had a greater appreciation for the concept of self identifying as a Best Feminist, right? Because I felt like that frees you of having to perform a version of perfection. And I felt like that translates even into activism in general, right? It’s not like let’s let me just denounce this and tell you from the jump I’m bad at this right. And it means that I’m still fucking with the grades. As John Morgan puts it, right. There’s still some new ones I’m still trying to figure out or, you know, whatever. I understand that. But then when I got to the Lehman done, check

Traci Thomas 12:36
this thing. You said Lena Dunham,

Shanita Hubbard 12:39
from girls, right? When I got to her chapter, I that chapter made me feel like I’m just doing feminism wrong period because so there’s this chapter in here where she is she’s talking about girl she’s you know, she watches the show and I’m not a fan of to me Lena Dunham is peak like feminists like I’m willfully ignorance. I am like, you know, all the above, incredibly privileged and willfully ignorant and I feel she’s Hannah, and then but there’s no distinction to me in my head. Right? She’s like, there’s a line that this character says I might be the voice of my generation, like completely tone deaf and goofy to meet that Selena is like she’s Yeah, I can go on all day about my other dislike for

Traci Thomas 13:21
her and like, I don’t like her. Right, right. Absolutely. She’s

Shanita Hubbard 13:25
so all the things right, completely, completely, utterly, ridiculously average, tone, deaf, whatever, all the things right. everything wrong with white feminism. That’s what I associate with her. So there’s this this chapter, which is kind of what she is defense. She’s talking about the pushback that he gets from girls, right? And the pushback is about the nepotism. And she’s you know, Linus talking about how you know, her dad hurt somebody in her family is in Hollywood or whatever, and help opened up doors for her. She didn’t have to like, go and pitch and do all this hard work. From my understanding. She probably like, wrote off and I think I heard probably heard me say some interview before. But she wrote a few words like, here’s the show, boom, made that really for HBO. So she of course gets a lot of pushback from nepotism and how little she had to work on and stuff. And then Roxane Gay is this is and her end of the chapter. She says, you know, nepotism happens all the time in Hollywood. There’s so many white men, that’s just a byproduct of nepotism. Like, why is this show getting singled out? And while she is not wrong, I can’t. I cannot imagine like using my platform using my words to defend her. That particular white woman like she is right. And lost. The whole world is going to come to our rescue. She’s absolutely fine. If I was going to make that argument, I wouldn’t you know, I just can’t I can’t. And that’s that’s something that maybe I’m doing feminism wrong, because there are some women that you know, I can just go hard and just show up for her cuz she’s fine. The whole world is gonna show up for her. She’s good, right? So. So my dad, maybe I’m doing the shit wrong because I can’t I gotta remember the fender.

Traci Thomas 15:00
But I sort of felt like in that essay, what she was also saying was like, we shouldn’t single out Lena Dunham for doing the same shit that everyone else is doing and that the whole industry is, which I sort of get because sometimes, like, I’ll read a book, and people will be like, this book is like, you know, it’s a book about parenting, and then people will be like, but it’s only about white parenting. And I’m like, right, but if this white woman wrote a book about black parenting, you would be fucking mad about that. And I would be too. And like, there’s part of me that’s just like Lena Dunham. You’re a privileged little white girl who’s had everything handed on handed to you. And you think you’re so subversive, but you’re not you’re basic as fuck, and you just stay in that lane? Because the second she tries to like, depict black people or whatever, it’s on site, right? Like, it’s just like, No, Lena, don’t, don’t put him in the show. Like, stay away. So I do think that’s a little bit of like what Roxane Gay saying is like, people are demanding that Lena Dunham’s version of Brooklyn look like XY and Z. And like, why, like, Why should she be the one who has to do it when no one else is? Which, you know, I’m, again to have two minds because I hear you. It’s like, why would you use your platform to be like, it’s okay for white people to just do white shit. But I sort of feel that way. Like, it’s how I feel about the bachelor. I’m like, I hate when they have black leads on The Bachelor. Because I don’t want to deal with race on The Bachelor. I want to deal with peak white mess. I want to deal with sloppy drunk people saying stupid shit and telling someone they’ve known for a week that they’re in love. I don’t want to deal with my face. I don’t want to deal with allegations of having gone to this in that party like, so for me. It’s like, I would never defend Lena Dunham, personally, but I also am not really asking Lena Dunham for more. I’m sort of just asking that Lena Dunham doesn’t have to exist in Hollywood anymore, which is kind of now where we are and it’s like a much better place for me. But to your original point, it does make me question like, am I a feminist? By a good one.

Shanita Hubbard 17:09
I just heard right and that and multiple things can be true at the same time like her Roxane Gay is point is correct, right. And same token like I wrote something before when I’m giving you a consolidated version we all know what you know the case what made the stallion and getting shot and then he made a joke about it in his hour when he saw that I was furious. And I was saying that if he’s only doing this as this is quote unquote allowed and it’s okay he just don’t have a career because she’s a black woman because have God forbid Taylor Swift and a victim of gun violence and Drake great name and Osama made her the point of a joke. I will give his career another 48 hours before he will be done right? The whole world wiser to protect her the way they do, you know, really privileged, pretty white woman. So I would not say anything. When he says something about me, I’m gonna come out and don’t swear, I will not say anything about Taylor Swift because she don’t need me. Um, trust me. You don’t need me to say anything she well protected. She’s completely fine. I don’t I that’s just me. Like when you have this level of privilege, as this white woman with this level of privilege, I don’t have an enemy to like, stand up and just use whether it’s my word was a tweet, when was anything? Because you don’t mean you’re fine. So what I was like, damn. So now that I was feeling when I read that chapter, and it wasn’t even about how to do maybe I’m like, bad for real.

Traci Thomas 18:30
Right? Because you’re saying like, because you won’t defend like, because your feminism is not necessarily like, inclusive of of these white women kind of thing? Is that what you’re Is that what you’re getting at?

Shanita Hubbard 18:41
Well, I won’t. I don’t I don’t feel this sense of let me protect you. Let me fight for you. Let me do all this for the privileged white woman. Because you don’t mind me. I’m going to take my limited energy resources and capacity. And let me go super hard for you know, he’s translatable. And maybe I’m sure people can do both. And all right, what I’m saying, right, that’s where I put all my energy because I’m like, the whole world about the show for this year. She got up here,

Traci Thomas 19:10
right? Did you did you feel that way? In 2014?

Shanita Hubbard 19:16
And no, in 2014, I did not write I was like, um, these are the things that I had in common that these are things that were consistent when I read it now. And when I read in 2014, I’m like, wow, she’s incredibly smart. Wow, she’s an engaging writer. You know how I know she’s a writer, because I don’t give a fuck about Scrabble. And I’m reading this whole chapter, because she knows I like

Traci Thomas 19:37
I hate scrabble Scrabble.

Shanita Hubbard 19:42
Nemesis rule for her, right? Sounds like she’s an incredibly engaging writing really smart. So those things were consistent. So that remained the same. The only thing was, I kind of was like, I knew that I wasn’t like how I was trying to reconcile how I felt about like, damn, like, she’s not talking specifically to who’s your target audience just reconciling however else about that,

Traci Thomas 20:04
right? Did you ever read Tanahashi coach’s book, we were eight years in power, where he has like the eight essays for during, like through Obama’s pregnancy presidency, and he, he republished them, they’re all Atlantic pieces, and He republishes them with like an, like an introduction essay to each one. I would love for her to do that with this collection, because there were so many parts where she would say something. And I would be like, I’ve literally seen you tweet, the opposite of that in the last five years. So I know, just like you and I, she has grown and changed her feminism and her relationship. Like there’s a part really early and the first, the first like, you know, the feel me essay, whatever. She talks about how when she was a professor, there, she was like working with the black kids. And then another black professor was there and she was like, Oh, are you going to help the black kids? And she was like, No, I’m not paid for that. And Roxane Gay is like, I would do anything, even if I wasn’t being paid for it. But I know now that she’s very much like, it’s not my job. I’m not being paid for it. Like I’ve seen her talk about, like, work like, so it’s just interesting to know. Oftentimes, I don’t know, an author, in the same way that I follow Roxane Gay and like, read her work and read her tweets to know her opinion. And so this was really, like, sort of jarring, because I’m like, you don’t think that anymore? You couldn’t possibly believe? Or like, so I don’t know. That definitely, like came up. You

Shanita Hubbard 21:39
know why? And this is why things like that make me appreciate the title even more, right? Because when I read back then isn’t like, I’m reading it as I’m still evolving and figuring this shit out. But yeah, right. So I would love a book like that too. Because of course, we’re all still involved in like, figuring this shit out. You know what I look like? Like if we if I was to pick a chapter that I’m like, Oh, I hope she does. And I hope was with this chapter. I can’t remember like I said, because it was the audio book. But it was about sexual. It was one of the chapters that was about sexual violence. And she was calling out this particular reporter. I have the habits that

Traci Thomas 22:13
the casual, the casual, violent, the casual language of sexual violence, that one about the little girl who was raped?

Shanita Hubbard 22:19
Yes. Yes, at Yes. From both teen Yeah, yes. Very strong man. And she was calling out the New York Times for the way they was they actually, you know, when, according to her book was they framed it as oh my gosh, how is this poor little town going to survive this horrific event? All these poor little town as opposed to Dean and I think she said, Oh, yeah. And I think she said they only use the word rate one time, right. So she was really like, you know, calling them she was letting the patents of and I love that she dropped names. Like who Porter was and everything. And I love that she did that. And I love that she was color. Oh, it’s 11 year old fucking child and Mrs. Reagan And he’s saying the porch, this poor towel. I would have loved for that essay to talk about the intersection. I will also be more intersectional right. So like, I don’t know if that girl she’s talking about as white or black. And of course, it doesn’t matter what I’ll show for my kids though, right? She’s Roxane Gay is protection. But I also would have loved to include how much more This happens when the little girls are black or brown. Like really break this down, like get how it’s underreported. Talk about the ultimate, the adult suffocation of black girls, right. That’s what I was looking for. Right. So then, again, it took me a really long time to get through this because I was wrestling with it. I was like, Okay, I’m looking for her to beat me. I’m looking for my voice and her words. That’s how I would read. And that’s what I was looking for.

Traci Thomas 23:45
I see. Yeah, that. I mean, that was one of my favorite essays in the whole that was

Shanita Hubbard 23:50
that was my thought hands down my favorite. Yeah,

Traci Thomas 23:53
I mean, that one just really like a lot of the ones about sexual violence stand the test of time, unfortunately. And but what I thought was really interesting. So you know, she’s so specific about language and, and it’s something she sort of talks about throughout the collection. But one of the things that I thought was really interesting about this, and this is not me defending any of the rapists, but she refers to them all as men. And then we find out in the last section that some of them were boys, they were middle schoolers. And I thought that that was really interesting that she chose to refer to them as men, when some of them were also children. Not that it makes it any better what they did, but it is it’s different. A middle school boy is different than a 25 year old, and there were 25 year olds. And so like what’s the that piece? Yeah, she says let me find that she says it. So this is what she says an 11 year old girl was raped by 18 men. The suspects ranged in age from middle schoolers to a 27 year old. Hmm. You know, like, and I don’t I don’t necessarily think that it’s wrong to say men because that elicits a specific thing, but I do think it’s interesting in an essay all about the specificity of language and how we talk about these things to say, by 18 men, some of which were middle schoolers, because those are not men, and had and had it had they been black boys. And we found out they were calling them men, we roasted them. Exactly because because think about I mean, she gets relator Trayvon Martin, he was a still a boy, he was a 17 year old boy. So many people think he was a man or Tamir Rice think he was a man. I think this behavior is reprehensible for boys or men or anyone. But I do think calling in middle schooler a man is a it’s a choice. I don’t think it was a mistake, I guess is what I’m saying. And I’m interested in the choice that she made to do that.

Shanita Hubbard 25:52
That is interesting, because maybe I almost wonder if she did that on purpose. Oh, I didn’t. I think

Traci Thomas 25:58
she did. Yes. Yeah. She’s too smart. She’s so smart, and too thoughtful. And I think maybe she’s trying to make a point, perhaps about how the girls individuality was like disregarded. But But even still, I, I think it was a choice. And, and I just think maybe the more interesting choices to talk about what it means to be a boy versus a man in a situation like this and trying to behave like a man and to be led by there was at least 127 year old man there. And that also says something What the fuck is that 27 year old man doing with some middle schoolers, with an 11 year old girl and some other middle school boys like, that is what I want to know about.

Shanita Hubbard 26:47
Oh, that’s a cool point. I just pulled up my notes. Right. So um, because I was, I wrote some books specifically about like the Lena Dunham chapter and I was in that role that she’s fair in a way Roxane Gay is fair in a way that I don’t think I can do. For example. Like, for example, her defense of the show girls against criticism about nepotism isn’t something I don’t think I can can do. Even though gays Correct. You know, Roxanne is correct, which is a personal reminder that feminism is bigger than my personal feelings about any specific woman, which is something I need to sit with.

Traci Thomas 27:20
Yeah, yeah. Okay, let’s take a quick break. And we’ll be back to discuss more of the essays. Okay, we’re back. There were two essays for me that we don’t spend a lot of time but there were two essays for B that I absolutely hated. Just could not possibly get my brain into. I actually had to switch over to the audio book for one because I kept just being like, I can’t keep reading this. It was the garish, garish, glorious spectacle. The one about green the green girl. Do you remember that one? Oh, yes, I just hated it. I don’t even have anything smart to say I just was like, I’m bored. I have no idea what a green girl is. I have no idea what the point of this essay was, I hated it. And then the other one I hated came later. And I think I hated it because it felt so dated. But it was towards the end, it was the politics of respectability one. And just those two for me, I like everything else, I could pull something at least interesting to think about or reflect on, even if it was just like a reflection on the changing of the time. But those two I was just like, No, thank you. And in a collection with that many essays. I sort of feel like that’s impressive to only have two that were really just like terrible because I’m I hate everything. So I don’t know if you had any like least

Shanita Hubbard 28:38
one dream girl because it was that essay where I said, I don’t know if I’m the target audience. What is this? Like I? I was completely lost, like completely, like, completely. Listen to what again, I said, I don’t know. I don’t know what this is. I don’t know. And I said, You know what, I guess if someone imagined someone reading my book, and they’d like, never heard any of these hip hop references, and don’t kind of get it and like, so I can imagine, you know, there’s some people probably feel that way. I mean, in my book, too, but I’m just like, Oh, I’m lost as fuck, I don’t lost. I think if I let it play, I can’t tell you anything about that chapter. Because I don’t I don’t understand.

Traci Thomas 29:17
Well, so the crazy thing is okay, I didn’t know what a green girl was. But I have read the Joan Didion book that she was talking about. And I was literally like, I don’t I don’t even know what you’re talking about. And I’ve read this book, like that essay for me was just like a no thank you moment. However, the politics of respectability. I did not like that one. But two essays later when she has the one that’s like the alienable rights of women. It was like about abortion. That essay could have been written yesterday. It felt I mean, it’s unfortunate because it’s about abortion. But it was like such a reminder. You know, like last year when when Roe was you know, potentially going to be overturned and it was being heard by this Supreme Court and all this stuff and so many people. You know, this is very general generalization, but so many people were like, how could this happen? Like, I can’t believe Trump appointed a Supreme Court justice. And now here we are, right. And as I was reading this essay, I was like, that’s such revisionist history, because we’ve known row was a goner, for at least as long as this essay exists, like we’ve known, we’ve been seeing them chip away, and like going back and revisiting this, revisiting this moment in time, I just, I was like, Wow, this essay, was ahead of its time at the time, but also totally reflected what was going on, and is a reminder to us now to like, pay attention to these little things. Like I’m thinking about these moments with Ron DeSantis, and all these Republicans and trans rights and trans and drag queens, and how it’s like these little, you know, we’re gonna get rid of drag storytime. And now it’s like, we’re gonna ban drag people, people who do drag or transgender people in public. And like, it’s these little chipping away moments that all of a sudden you look back, and rows gone, right? Like, all of a sudden, you look at some of the things that were said five or 10 years ago about trans people or drag queens, and now we’re at a place where it’s illegal to do it in public and places like, that’s not a little thing anymore. Now, we’re at a big yes, fucked up thing.

Shanita Hubbard 31:28
Tracy, I remember, like, the only thing I disliked about that article is that it’s so fucking evergreen. I was like, Oh, my gosh, is this our our outline our essay? I would love for that essay, some beach to feel dated, you know, that was? So I was just like, oh my gosh, yes. That it looks like I that felt like she could have written that for me.

Traci Thomas 31:50
Exactly. There’s one part of that essay where she talks about like, Should doctors collectively be pushing back. And the one thing that I thought about that point, which felt so naive in the, in the context of the rest of the essay is like, the problem is a lot of doctors don’t want row, like a lot of doctors. And we see that now, obviously, COVID has changed. I think the way that a lot of people think about doctors, I think there used to be a respect for the profession. That was like doctors believe in science, and they don’t believe in politics. And I think we’re seeing now that people are realizing that doctors do believe in politics. My husband is an OB GYN. And so a lot of my girlfriend’s will come to him about pregnancy related things or whatever. And I remember maybe like eight years ago, a friend of ours who was pregnant in Georgia, her doctor was giving her like, wild advice that was so political and so specific to the doctor’s opinions, like about about pregnancy, like screening tests to screen for, you know, whatever chromosome chromosomal issues or things that might make a pregnancy not viable. And, and he didn’t want to do that for her. And he said he wouldn’t do it for her. And that, you know, she had to do like all of these things that now of course, we’re hearing about this with Roe, but I think people don’t realize that, just because you’re a doctor doesn’t mean you believe in the science or that you don’t also have religious opinions, or social opinions about gender or sexuality, or Yeah, I think it’s like, you know, I love doctors, I respect doctors, but I don’t love and respect all doctors. And I recognize that some doctors are violent, they are abusive, they are controlling and they can do terrible things for people. And and I just think like, it was so interesting to see Roxane Gay be like doctors need to band together and like say no. And I’m like, oh, some have and some do. But some are saying yes. And they’re banding together to do that.

Shanita Hubbard 33:53
You see, I’m always oh, gosh, even before we had the language to describe medical racism, talk to black and when we can always even we didn’t have the qualitative data, right? I mean, the the quantitative data, we have the stories and the qualitative data, we can explain what our experiences have been like in a medical field. I told his doctor, this was hurting me right and then he didn’t respond. My doctors not listening to me when I said this. The data is there. The stories are there. We understand that we are getting hysterectomy is at a much higher rate. Right? We understand medical racism, we understand the field of gynecology, how that was starting, right. Yeah, yeah. Practicing on the bodies of enslaved women without their permission or even anesthesia. So when I see phrases like doctors need to band together, I don’t see this as this. I don’t see them as this moral compass that’s going to you know, I don’t see them as these type of advocates that’s going to do this. I operate with a level of distrust for doctors. So lines like that. Well, even thoughts like that are just never going to come to me.

Traci Thomas 34:55
Yeah, that’s so true. That’s so true. Okay, I want Let’s talk about the race and entertainment section. Because I have seen almost every single movie in that section, I just haven’t seen the help. But I hadn’t seen all the Tyler Perry movies. But aside from that, I’m very familiar with every reference. And I would love to ask you about this.

Shanita Hubbard 35:19
Okay, so I’m gonna go like, I have no, you got like, check 35 The racism we all carry. And it was this lie, I think it was an audiobook. So it’s like, she didn’t say she was quoting somebody. But most people are a little bit racist. I need for us to have like really hard push backs, when people conflate racism. And like prejudice. These are very different things, right? Many, a lot of us wrestle with some form of prejudice that we need to unpack. And we need to constantly make sure that we’re not operating from that place where racism is a very distinct thing. It is about, you know, racism, and by having systemic power to oppress other groups, and we don’t all have that. Right. So I need it to be hard pushed back so that they can act particular chapter. It was about Paula Dean and like this cool and cool, casual racism and like, we all have a little racism, like baby we need any always wants to have, even if at the risk of sounding redundant, clear pushback, so that we can’t complete racism and prejudice, because that’s a very dangerous thing. So I’m definitely I remember reading listening to that, and wanting to see a much, much, much stronger pushback on that.

Traci Thomas 36:28
Yeah, yeah. Well, wait. So that’s in the that’s you since you did audiobook, it’s harder for you to know. But that’s in the politics, gender and race section. So let’s do that. And then we’ll go back to the entertainment one. I agree. I think, you know, it’s what’s hard for me. And like, I wish I had more insight, I wish that with each essay, it was written afterwards, when and where it was published, if it was published, or if it was written for this collection. Because I think about, like what you’re talking about, about, you know, we’re not all racist, like there’s a connection to power. And that is inherent, like, you have to have that piece to have racism. And I think about how that language feels so much in the culture right now. And I would love to know where this essay was published and who the audience was for this essay. Right? Like, because it seems not that she shouldn’t push back against that I think you’re 1,000% Correct. But this one really felt like, hey, white people, like a lot of the race ones feel like she’s writing to white people, whereas a lot of the earlier ones, like a lot of the first big section, the gender and sexuality section, some of those feel like really small niche things that she’s into. Whereas the politics, gender and race section felt like, these are things that I was asked to write about. And I feel like she saw she softens in her essays. You know, like, she makes herself more palatable, in some ways that she does not do that now. Like when she writes things now, yes, feels like her scathing opinion about something is there, but 10 years ago, she’s up and coming, she hasn’t written hunger yet. She this book is sort of what propels her to stardom. So I feel like some of these essays are like, I want to get asked back, you know, like, people to click on this, which I hate. And again, is why I wish she would rewrite this book with essays from now talking about the experience of writing the essay in 2015, or 2012, or whatever.

Shanita Hubbard 38:46
Okay, you’re absolutely right. Because like even her right exactly, I said, like, exactly, she said, not even just her writing, but even her tweets, like she comes out swinging and she’s talking about sexual violence and, and after reading hunger, maybe this is more context or whatever. But um, when she’s talking about sexual violence, maybe she’s holding a bar, she comes out swinging, she’s NFE and neck, she does not care. The care was palpable. She does you know, she’s coming out swinging and that said, she dropped a name. So she’s saying this writer McKinley in the New York Times a paper of record, she’s holding the bars, she’s calling people on their ships. And that’s how hard I want her to. I want her to come when she’s talking about race. I want it to come just as that fucking car so when it doesn’t feel like that, for me, it makes me wonder like, well, who are you talking to? Like, you know what I mean? Because that’s how that’s how I want her to i But then again, I’m just like, but one of the reasons why I struggle with it, because I’m just like, I can’t like I’m not that’s how I would write it. You know, Roxane Gay Shrek saying gay. Don’t ask binominal Roxane Gay, you know, and I’m still dope actually, in my old neighbor. We have very distinct voices. So but that’s the thing I liked when you talk about race. Hit hard shoot from the hip. Empty the fucking clip don’t leave nothing there I go super hard. And that’s what she did. Sexual bye. I just want to do this, I wish that I felt the same like about the pieces about raisonnable.

Traci Thomas 40:05
And I feel like now, the conversation, the cultural conversation around race has gotten to a point where many more black folks feel comfortable having that energy in a way that I mean, you know, I was, in 2014 10 years ago, I was 26. So I was still young, like, I wasn’t doing any of this stuff. But I certainly didn’t feel comfortable talking about race in the way that I do. Now, just being like, you know, this is wrong, like, an incorrect, you’re an idiot. And I feel like sexual violence, though, sort of always feels like a thing. Maybe not always, but sort of feels like an easier thing to be like this as bad. Were 10 years ago. We just, I mean, I mean, in 2020, white people discovered racism. So we’re working on three years of being able to have this conversation where it’s like, so like, not, again, I agree with you. I wish that she came out with her full Roxane Gay, Enos and all of this. But I also am like, thinking of the time and thinking of like, if this is going to be published somewhere, like some editors gonna say, like, I just want to know, I want to know the backstory to some of these because they just, they don’t feel fully Roxane Gay. But also, again, I think she’s probably grown into her thinking, in addition to all of us, growing into our thinking, and just being like, you know, what, we’re not gonna tiptoe around race anymore. We’re just gonna fucking say it to your face. And if you don’t like it, fine. But also another part to add on to that is the amount of internet harassment she gets. Yes, I wonder how much she makes herself. Like what she chooses to take on, in her full sense because she knows incoming hate, hate, hate hate,

Shanita Hubbard 41:56
like to two things about that, because also keeping in mind like she wrote this as a much older collection. So I’m reading this when I was listening to this now I’m listening to her with the I’m kinda like through the lens of the Roxane Gay that I’ve gotten to know I don’t know her person to my people a word right? So I’m talking about the Roxane Gay who? I remember like she pulled her out. I thought this was the most bad as shit. She pulls her book from like Simon and Schuster. When they sign that racist as God, whatever, what I can’t remember his name. So they signed this racist bullshit, godless trashes God. And she pulled her book from them. And he and then I was like, children’s badass as well. And then another time when it was like a New York Times huge, massive as literary events, and she was going to be there on stage speaking and it was also going to have Steve Bannon on it she refused to go so I’ve seen her you know, come out swinging heavy, hard, right. And she pulled

Traci Thomas 42:53
her podcast from Spotify. Yeah, over Joe Rogan and the the racist guy talking about his Milos Gilan, novelist or whatever, that guy. Yeah,

Shanita Hubbard 43:02
so I’m thinking you don’t need to wait up. That’s the Roxane Gay that I have seen. And he’s right years. So when I revisit this word, it feels like a such a disconnect. But people swing differently. You know what I mean? Like, she might not be the one to go super hard on the keyboard. But she’ll be the one to like, No, I’m gonna pull my fucking word. No, you can’t use my name on the stage with the C band. So I was definitely like wrestling that I was thinking about that a lot.

Traci Thomas 43:30
And I think some of that comes after her success with hunger to

Shanita Hubbard 43:35
she’s the right place to do that.

Traci Thomas 43:37
Yeah, she’s in that. Yeah, exactly. In that space of privilege, where she’s able to be like, my books will sell. I’ve proved I’ve proven it to you. I mean, I think when they did that whole publishing paid me thing. She was one of the people who talked about she couldn’t give facts or figures. But she did weigh in a little bit about what happened with her because I think she was like, in a negotiation at that time or something. There was a reason why she couldn’t give the numbers for whatever reason, but she was talking about it. And like, again, I agree, I don’t I don’t think she’s scared to do those things. Now, I just wonder about in 2014. What she hadn’t arrived in the same way. Like this is the book that put her sort of on the map and then hungers the book that made her the star. And so I wonder like, in the period before this book comes out how she’s writing you know, the other one I want to talk about, I’d love to hear your thoughts about the two profiles one about the Boston bombing kid and the Trayvon Martin murder, and how she talks about like the two different profiles about them like how Rolling Stone had sort of made Dzhokhar Tsarnaev into like this sort of sex symbol hero, you know, bad boy kind of vibe,

Shanita Hubbard 44:51
the whole the pieces about race, I’m gonna, I’m gonna say this what I’m saying the same. It’s like, is she? I didn’t read I stopped reading Some of the people listening only because I was trying to figure out why I was feeling so strongly that way, right? I was trying to reconcile. I’m gonna spin a block, and I’m gonna listen to it again. Because it felt like such a disconnect for me. And I was, I felt so different for me. And I was trying to figure that piece out. Because like I said, this is the Roxane Gay that I’ve you know, seen her publicly, like, Oh, hell no, pull my book, I’m gonna do this. So when she wasn’t coming, you know, with that fire. I was like, Oh, God, and I pull away when I feel like it’s a book about racing. You’re not talking to me? Like, you know, I hate that. I hate that. Right? I’m gonna want to do you feel like this is a book about race? No, no, I was saying that. In general, when you’re writing a piece, and it’s something and I see you’re not talking to me. I pulled back. So I was like, I used to I so I’ve had to, like, skip those chapters, and figure and kind of like, reconcile, like, my own feelings about and this conversation help because you said something really important. She’s also incredibly high profile, right? Is why even then even back then, right? So and talking about the visceral and and the fucking ridiculous acid attacks you get from just like, racist as pieces of shit or whatever. So it’s a very big difference. For me, if I say something right in my book of all likely something versus I can she can say the same exact thing. She’s going to be attacked mercifully, just because more people are going to read it. She’s far more reasonable. So I some of those things I had step away from, but I told you before the last podcast, it takes me a long time to, to get through it, because these are the things that are sitting what I’m thinking about.

Traci Thomas 46:34
Yeah, I want to switch back to the race and entertainment ones, because this was my favorite section of the book, because I had the most thoughts about it, I think, mostly because I’ve seen a lot of the things that she talked about. And I want to talk about the 12 years of slave one specifically. It’s like beyond the struggle narrative. And I think, you know, reading this in 2023, and thinking about the ways that there was this call for Black joy, and like Happy Black stories, and all of this stuff in the in the recent past, this essay feels ahead of its time in some ways. But also, I have fully come around on the black joy thing. And I actually now hate that call. Because I think that it’s a call to make white people comfortable with get to choose what kind of black stories they want to read, as opposed to us telling our stories, how we want to tell them. So to say that, Oh, well, we want we want to read Black joy. So we don’t want to read about slavery, or we want to read Black joy. So we don’t want to read about abuse, or we don’t want to read about incarceration, because that’s not all black people are and like this whole, you know, so that was like what was coursing through my brain as I’m reading this essay in 2023. Even though I can recognize that this call for going beyond the struggle narrative was totally fresh in 2014. But now I’m like, I don’t know, we did do slavery, like salt. Solomon Northrup was sold back into slavery for 12 years. And that story needs to be told. And I did not know that story when that movie came out. And I did not know a lot of that stuff. And so I, it was a like, that was one that really gave me pause of like, how do I feel about this? And how do I contextualize this in 2024, and 2014?

Shanita Hubbard 48:37
See, I felt differently with that, with that chapter with that essay, because I felt like Wow, she’s so far ahead of the curve. I actually read the article that you sent me when she was being interviewed. And this and I’m paraphrasing here, and she’s talking about, not be careful about, you know, how the audience and not even just the audience, it’s the white publishers of the white industry, how they want to consume and devour our trauma, right? And your writing, you have to go wherever you’re just creating, right? And you have to go back to these places. And for you, what is that doing to your body in your mind, and for that to happen, and people crave this, this this sensation to consume our trauma. So I felt like she was really ahead of the time. I think this space in his room for all of this in this conversation, right? multiple things can be true at the same time, but that was something new, I wanted to myself wasn’t even thinking about it. 2014 So I was reading this I was like, I was like, Yo, damn, she really was like this right? Way ahead, way ahead of the time, because there is something so profound to that. Like the lot of it is and I think for me, the whole black joy who want to see more joy. I think it was a push back for this whole it was almost like they wanted to live the way that it feels like okay as A black writer, because there was a time where I was doing like a whole lot of freelancing, right? So if I was to write a what was going to New York Times, The Huffington Post or whatever, right? If I would especially like random me to movement, so if I’m so so I wrote this piece about, you know, me too, moving from an intersectional lens about how complicated it is for black woman to say, Me too, when the offender is also, you know, a black man. And then it gets more complicated if he’s like, alpha or whatever. And like, everyone knows that my topic, white editors always want to push me can share personal story can go there. And even if I do have I’m like, Yeah, I don’t know, I can’t really go to try, right. So this is really strong push for us to just present a world without trauma to consume, regardless, and what that does to the artists. So this whole, this whole black joy narrative, I interpreted as a push back to that. So I really read that from like, the artists on this creative perspective. So that’s actually I was like it I was, so she was at a time.

Traci Thomas 50:58
Yeah, I totally hear that from the artists and creative perspective. I think what I’m talking about is from the consumer perspective, of this, of this thing of like the industry, being like, you know, because I get all these pitch emails about books, constantly, from publicists, from the publishers and you know, the the marketing teams write the blurbs. It’s not coming from the author. And you don’t know this yet. But But listeners will know. I had Joseph Earl Thomas on who wrote a book called sink, which is his memoir of his childhood in South Philly. Maybe North Philly, I can’t remember, just say, his childhood in Philly. And it’s a really brutal story. And he suffered a lot of trauma and a lot of abuse. And when the marketing copy came, it was like, see how this black boy like, become like, escaped abuse through geek culture? Like an embrace it, you know, and it’s like, no, no, no, this is not that, like that’s in the book a little bit. But like, this is the story of a boy who was, like, left behind and abused and ignored. And like, that is our story too. And to try to diminish that part to like, make it about joy. Like, it’s not always about joy. Like how are you going to spend 12 Years a Slave into joy? You know, so I agree, Roxane Gay is 1,000% ahead of her time on this essay. I agree that when editors and film in like film industry are trying to push for us to only tell these devastating stories, that that is 1,000% Wrong. I agree that we need more stories of black people just everyday shit, like the movie, the last black man in San Francisco, one of my favorite movies, because it’s just like black shit, right? Like, it’s just like two black dudes just like going through shit. And there is trauma in that movie. But there’s also so much joy and so much fun. But I don’t like the way that that call for Black joy is now being turned into a way for white people and other people who are not black to be like, Oh, I read Black Books, but only books about Black joy. Like that. I only want to consume black romance that’s like, you don’t get to do that to our stories because you only get the joy if you also take the trauma. And that’s true for all people right like that. And I think black people are so great at like finding the humor and things and like melding those two things perfectly. But my response is more about the 2023 version. And but my offer this essay, for sure comes from her being ahead of her time. But she also was like it one best picture. And I’m like, yeah, it was definitely the best movie that year. I I’m sorry that it was the best movie of the year.

Shanita Hubbard 53:37
What’s more thing I just a small thing that I appreciate more about this book after writing by or just after reading some more there is there is this huge, especially in 2023 and 2022. And 2021. Right? They just it’s almost felt like publishing only once a year about right. So there was only just huge push for that. I appreciate the chapter that was like mostly about scrabulous, but this is no, she just gets to write about fucking Scrabble. Like that is really, um, like so in the context of this conversation about Black joy. Like I want a world where all isn’t there’s, there’s no either or we’re just all in the can and under what you’re talking about from a consumer perspective, but that was one of the things I just was reading that and oddly enough thinking about the Scrabble chapter.

Traci Thomas 54:23
Well, I that’s so that’s another thing that I do love about this book is that she isn’t being forced to write only about air quote black things. Yeah, right like that. She’s given the space to talk about the the art and the culture that is interesting to her. Whether or not it’s interesting to you or I it’s not relevant necessarily. Because so often, I mean, like, again, just speaking of my world, I have to go out of my way to ask for a book by a white author if I want to read it. You know, like oftentimes I’m pitch black authors and I read tons of black authors, but sometimes I want to read a white book. Like they never be sending me Taylor Jenkins reads books, you know what I mean? Like, you know, so it’s like, there is a defiance and a sort of fuck you. I can write about anything, just like you would let all white boy write about black shit. Like, I can write about your little white girl shit. I can write about girls. Like, I don’t have to write about Tyler Perry. But I am choosing to write about this because it’s interesting to me. And it’s not just because I’m black. And I think that that her standing and that is one of the most powerful things in this collection and not still stands the test of time, because we’re so often told, we can only do black things.

Shanita Hubbard 55:48
Yes. See you. You know, it’s funny. Now I feel this is why I’m now I feel hypocritical, right? Because every there’s so many chapters where I’m just like, I want to hear more about this from like, you know, unlike all these lands, because I’m thinking about the, um, the chapter about hunger, like what we have before. Oh, absolutely, is wonderful. So there’s this line, she says, just because you survive something doesn’t mean you’re strong. Right? So as a black woman, that is a powerful statement, right? I really wanted and was, you know, I want her to go sue. I wanted to go really, really, really hard around that like, especially to black women, because, you know, I for all of the obvious reasons, right? So I was like, yeah, so yes, let’s see your point. But I don’t know. So that’s what was going on. So this was my notes like around that, because I was just like listening and jotting stuff down. Just because you survived something doesn’t mean you’re strong as a black woman. That’s a powerful statement. You think you’re alone. And so you find books about girls that look like you This is something she also said this chapter. But for me, this is why it’s so important for us to show up as who we truly are. It’s so important for us to always for me to always center the most marginalized among us, right. So I wanted that chapter to talk more specifically about the cultural aspect of that, because especially because we exist in a world where my whole book is, you know, it’s about contending against this whole right about growing black women. Sure. So I wanted to, I wanted to see more of that efficient, double automatic.

Traci Thomas 57:18
Yeah. So it’s so interesting. I totally hear you and I agree. I love that one. I love the Hunger Games. I’m a big Katniss fan. That was very much my shit. And so I really just love

Shanita Hubbard 57:33
my life. I was like, this is this whole collection is losing me. I don’t know these platforms.

Traci Thomas 57:37
You okay? I have to say this. You have to read Hunger Games with your daughter. It is so good. It is like I I do not fuck around with fantasy sci fi really at all? I do not really fuck with Y A that much at all. I devoured those books. I my best friend bought me a Hunger Games pin that I still have. I went to the movie theater on open like I just found it. I am with her 1000 Katniss for President three books, it’s three books. But there’s a there’s a new, like prequel that I haven’t read. Which I probably won’t read. But there is a new prequel that came out like a year or two ago and then there’s four movies they turned the third book into two movies. You know how they sometimes do that? But I I loved it. I love it. We’re we’re basically out of time. Oh my gosh. We talked about the title already. We didn’t really talk about the cover. Do you have any thoughts about this cover? Just the text and then it says bad feminist and pink? It says Roxane Gay and black and it has some pink lines. And it’s pretty basic.

Shanita Hubbard 58:48
Yeah, it is. But I thought it was because I remember the end of it. She’s wrapping it up and she’s talking about she’s she circles back to back feminist. And she does talk about that. She was like, you know, she’s, I love pink. That’s one of my favorite because I used to say black because I thought that was a nice thing to do. So I feel like the whole pink and black was really intentional, like really owning her shit. Like driving home that point of it like I love I’m a fucking bad feminist and fucking with the grays and talking about like, all these nuances and pushing back on these really basic mediocre concepts of what the world defines as feminism. So I love I actually liked that. I was like, Oh, this is cute.

Traci Thomas 59:21
I love the Easter egg. And I think that it also like the writing the font, everything makes it look like it’s like, you know from the newspaper or something. So it’s fine. It doesn’t it’s not like a super catchy cover, but it’s does not offend me in any way, which is also rare. Like I like it. I think it’s fine. I think it holds up. I think it’s actually sort of intriguing. And I think like just to kind of end on this conversation about the title just because that’s kind of where we’ve ended up again. I think this idea of a bad feminist is something that I love. I relate to it. I have talked about being a bad mom. I just tell people I’m a bad mom. up front. So men when I do something bad, you don’t have to hate me, though I have received pushback from parenting people who have told me to say I’m a good enough mom. But you know what? Same difference good enough bad. I’m not a great mom. And I’m not a great feminist. And I’m not a great black person. And I’m just doing the best that I can. And I relate to that because I think disarming people and saying all of that, and I think like, you know, this book is also really obsessed with like, the idea of likability and, and, you know, I’m not likable, I don’t care about likable characters. I don’t like likeable people, like so all of that stuff really, like resonated for me. And I think that the title, you know, you know what you’re getting, you know what a bad feminist is even before she defines it, so I like I liked all of that.

Shanita Hubbard 1:00:46
I loved all of that. And actually, I pulled a quote from the article that she sent me and I’m like, Yeah, this is it right here. And a good

Traci Thomas 1:00:53
It’s an article from The Guardian for people. I’ll link to it in the show notes. But yes, go ahead.

Shanita Hubbard 1:00:57
And good feminism is the feminism that overlooks the intersections of identity that we all inhabit. Then I’d rather be a bad feminist. So like yep, that’s it, girl.

Traci Thomas 1:01:07
That’s it. That’s it. I think we should end there. Shanita, thank you so much for being here.

Shanita Hubbard 1:01:12
Thank you, Traci. This is fun. Thank you for having me.

Traci Thomas 1:01:15
I’m so glad you did this with me and everyone else. We will see you in the Stacks.

All right, y’all. That does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening. And thank you again to Shanita Hubbard for being our guest. It is now time for the announcement of our April book club pick. In honor of National Poetry Month we will be reading Ross Gay’s 2015 collection, Catalog of Unabashed Gratitude. It’s an ode to love lost gardens and all that nourishes us. Listen to next week’s episode to find out who our guest will be for our April 26th discussion. If you love the show on one insight access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack. Make sure you’re subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you’re listening through Apple podcasts, be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from the stacks. Follow us on social media at the stackspod on Instagram and thestackspod underscore on Twitter and check out our website the stackspodcast.com. This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Megan Caballero
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