Ep. 202 Even the Bachelorette Gets Insecure with Rachel Lindsay

Written By Megan Caballero

Our guest today is Rachel Lindsay, the first Black Bachelorette and author of Miss Me with That: Hot Takes, Tidbits, and a Few Hard Truths. Rachel is also co-host of the podcast Higher Learning and a corespondent on Extra. We talk today about her experiences in Bachelor Nation, working with a ghost writer, and when she knew she was ready to write this book.

The Stacks Book Club selection for February is I Live a Life Like Yours by Jan Grue, we will discuss the book on February 23rd with Tessa Miller.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:09
Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I’m your host Traci Thomas. Today we welcome Rachel Lindsay, the first Black Bachelorette to the podcast to discuss her debut book. Miss Me With That: hot takes helpful tidbits and a few hard truths. Rachel is also the co host of the Higher Learning podcast and a correspondent on Extra. We talked today about her experiences on The Bachelor franchise, opening herself up to social media harassment, and working with a ghost writer. The Stacks book club pick for February is I Live a Life Like Yours by Jan Grue, and we will be discussing the book on Wednesday February 23rd with Tessa Miller. Okay, now we talk with Rachel Lindsay.

All right, everybody, I say this every week. But for those of you who know me, you know, I am so excited. As a fan of The Bachelor as a fan of Higher Learning. Today’s episode is what we call a dream guest. It is the one and only Rachel Lindsay. Rachel, welcome to The Stacks.

Thank you so much, Traci, for having me. And what an introduction. It is my honor and pleasure to be here on your podcast. Thank you so much for having me.

I’m so excited. We’re going to talk about your book. Miss me with that hot takes helpful tidbits and a few hard truths. It’s your memoir. I loved this book, I went in very skeptical because you know, good, like the bar is a little low with bachelor franchise, writing. And I was like, You know what? It’ll be cute. I was moved by you. I was like, Oh, I’m learning things. But just for people who aren’t up on the book yet. Will you in like 30 seconds or so tell us about the book?

Yes, thank you for saying that. This is a book about me. It’s book of essays. And I wanted to write essays because I didn’t want this to be a five, I did this at 10. I did this, I wanted each essay to stand alone. You can pick it up, go back to it, skip ahead if you want to. It’s designed to be that way. But what this really is, is an in depth look into me. My story has been told for me, I have been misunderstood that there are so many preconceived notions about me, but this book is me. These are my words. These are my feelings. These are my sensitivities, my vulnerabilities, my goofy side, My Sassy side. And of course, the hot takes, like me being completely honest about certain situations, I feel like I address everything, you might not get the answer you want, but it will be addressed. But this is really something that almost like a love letter to myself for my teens, and 20s that maybe this is something that you’re in this place right now you can pass it on to a friend or relative, whatever it may be. But every essay, I learned something, some plus lessons I learned before some lessons I learned when I was writing it.

I love that. I’m curious, when you decided you were ready to write the book. Because I know for a lot of people when you write a memoir, especially folks who are in the public eye, you have to come to terms with sharing information. So when did you get the idea for it? And then when did you decide you’re actually ready to write it?

Um, I was approached to write a book right after the show. And to be honest, I didn’t feel like I had enough to say, I didn’t think that I was interesting enough. I didn’t want the book to be all about my time on the show. And I didn’t want a tell all I’m more than just the Bachelorette. So I wanted to write a book more than that. So it just wasn’t the time for it. 2020 I have a lot to say. And because it became more of realizing who I am in this current world, the things that have happened to me prior to this, that have made me who I am. That’s the book that I wanted to write. So being in a place where I could barely take three steps without breaking down emotionally and 2020 watching what was happening in our country watching people wake up to racism, like it wasn’t always here and losing friendships, gaining allies, dealing with bachelor nation in a totally different way than I had before. It was 2020 where it was like okay, you know what, I got something to say because what I started to do was Do opinion like Opitz I wrote for GMA, I wrote for some some other publications as well. And I was like, You know what? I? Now’s the time that I feel like I have something to say I started a blog called honestly rage out of quarantine because I needed something to do a right and it was before May 2020, when it was the culmination of learning about ahmaud arbery learning about Breanna Taylor watching what happened to George Floyd, watching the the the fallout with Hannah brown all that happened in May, I had started my blog before so that my blog became a response to what was happening in society. Higher Learning started in May, that was originally was supposed to be a lot lighter than it started off. That was a response to what was happening in the black community and in this country. And so then I was just like, No, it’s time to write a book. Now, who would have known that then what will happen in 2001, as well, so it was gotta edit, edit, edit.

Oh, my gosh, I know you’ve had like a world when few years last few years, which is sort of funny, because you would think that like, doing the bachelorette would be like, you know, that’s all the craziness. And it’s like five years later, all of a sudden, I feel like you’ve had a Rachel renaissance in the public eye in a way that like alliteration, you take it with you take it to your next dinner. Now, one of the things you talk about in your book, from your upbringing, you talk about having been one of the few black kids going into like an all white school and being in the black community and not feeling black enough. And that’s something I also went to a predominantly white schools. And that’s something that I’ve definitely struggled with, as well. And I’m wondering if it’s something that is it something that you’re still struggling with now, as you’re on higher learning, and people are turning to you as like this voice and feeling a responsibility to not obviously speak for all black people, but also to represent us well? And also, you know, the criticism that you get, like, do you still struggle with that?

Very interesting question. So on higher learning, we had a family meeting. Yes, one time, I remember this, and it triggered issues that I talked about in my book, and Van always jokes with me. And it was something where I hadn’t fully explained to him what I’ve been through, but it triggered in me, what I went through in my childhood into my early adult years. Sure. And so I don’t struggle with it. Not nearly as much as I’ve used to, but certain things right, like marrying a man who’s not Black was an all those things come back again, where people are accusing me of being something that I’m not, or diminishing my blackness, you know, oh, my blackness is watered down. I’m not I’m not as black as you are, your black is better than mine. Those are issues from my childhood that I dealt with all over again and during the bachelor. So I don’t feel the pressure, or feel a certain way to speak out. Because that’s just me. And I think you also get that in the book of why I’m so vocal. I can’t help myself. What I went through what my parents taught me what I learned what I saw with my sister going to an HBCU. So no, I don’t feel it in that sense. I just more sometimes I feel defensive. Sure, because of how people first met me. They met me dating a white man. And then on my my show, I picked someone who was wasn’t Black.

Right. So right, which has become like such a talking point on the show of like, picking someone who’s all black, it’s like, okay, well, the dating pool also, it’s not like, you know, you talk about in the book not to diminish Brian in any way. i My husband is also not, yeah, he he knows he was married to you. Like that’s something I always think I’m like, of course, Brian gets off at all. He’s ready to to Rachel. Okay, you dive deep into some personal family type things. How much of the book did you show to your family? Before you’ve sent the final? Did you show any? What did the judge say? I’m curious.

My family has not read the book. Still no sisters? Not my parents, I contemplated Should I give them the book before? And then I decided not to. But what I did do, we had a very interesting Christmas holiday. Okay, because what I did do is decide to talk to them about the chapter that was the hardest one for me to write. And that’s the Miss sex education of Rachel Lindsay. Because we don’t talk about sex and my family. We never did. We still don’t. I’m 36 and I’m married and I still get nervous to talk about things. There’s a lot of sex in this book. And I’m very open about who I was having sex with and losing my virginity. And even being married and at the age I am, I was like, Oh my gosh, my parents I’m so nervous. So they’re gonna disown me after reading it, but it’s reality. And I think a lot of people can relate to growing up the way I did in a certain household where there was one message taught at school at church at home, even In your friend groups, most of my friends circles. So I thought it was important, because I know I’m not alone in this, and I shouldn’t be afraid to talk about it. And so I like that I challenge, not lose religion, but challenge my religion and the messages that are taught. And you see me work through that difficulty and that guilt and shame of not doing what I was supposed to do. And then losing myself in the process and trying to find that self worth in other ways. So I told my parents, I said, You didn’t talk to me about sex? Oh, my gosh, to this day, the judge is like, Yes, we did. You learned at school? I said, No, I learned about reproduction. That is totally different than learning about sex, and the feelings that you have and these emotions. And when you meet a guy, of course, my parents taught me to respect my body. And that’s what my dad said, we taught you to respect yourself and evolve yourself did. But what happens if I’m not perfect in that there was never a conversation about that there was never a conversation about the emotional side. And my dad had to concede, and he was like, You’re right. We never talked to you about that. Right. So they were accepting of what I had to say. But I do think it’s going to be very difficult for them to read. Because at the end of the day, my parents still care about what a lot of people think. And they’re they’re going to feel a certain way that other people are going to be reading about my business. I come from a family, not talk about your business.

Right, right. So will there be another family meeting? After they read the book, like, well, there’ll be a book report where they have to get

Here’s, here’s what I told them. I said, there was more, a lot more I could have said. So what I keep kept reiterating to them is I’m telling my business, telling your story, or something that happened or things I learned about my family that I felt like could have been very beneficial for me to know, when I was struggling with this, that I didn’t find out till I was in my 30s. Because they didn’t tell they didn’t tell each other’s business. So it was important for me to not tell them their business, but mine, right. So I was like, I hope that you guys at least find peace with that. There was a lot I could have said, Yeah. And I did it. My and there’s intention, you know, there’s, there’s a purpose behind it. I’m not telling it just to sell books. I’m telling it because it was therapeutic for me. And I feel like there are lessons that I learned that maybe somebody else can can learn as well.

Right? And what about a lot of the stuff you talked about, like you have a boyfriend that you talked about cheating on, you have the story about taking a big test where you did something that you weren’t super excited about? No spoilers here, folks, you’ll have to get the book. How did you come to terms with sharing so much of yourself? And in writing this book? Like how did you get okay with being like people are gonna find out about this thing that I’m not super proud of, or that I’m still a little embarrassed about?

So what’s funny is, I’ve never publicly said and he does not know, at least that I know of that I cheated on him in that relationship. I know what he did to me, because you know, I talk about it, right? But I’ve never, I’ve always been ashamed to say that I actually cheated in that relationship. And that’s what I mean about we were both so wrong. And it was not right for either one of us. But the reason I wanted to be open about my mistakes is because the purpose of the book is for people to get to know me, not the persona that has been out there, which is that oh, Rachel has it together. She went to, you know, college Law School daughter of a federal judge works as an attorney. She is perfect on paper. No, I’m self aware. And the reason I’m self aware is because of the hot mess of my 20s. And I don’t think that it’s my on brand for me to pretend to be something that I’m not. And also boring book. Yeah, that would have been 1000. If I tell my kids, I would have to leave out truly a decade of my life. And I just thought it was so important to like, if you want to understand how I am Rachel today, you have to understand the uphill battle that I had the inner struggles that I had, the the mistakes that I made in relationships, and the way I was looking to be valued from certain men, the way I became the way I treated, even being taught a message of valuing my body the way I wasn’t valuing it. And I thought I was so strong because I was doing everything I was supposed to do on the outside. But on the inside I was a mess, which is why one of my other favorite chapters into sanity, you see that? I didn’t think I need a therapy. And I’m a firm believer that the people who truly don’t think they need therapy are the ones that need it the most. And I went to therapy for the wildest reason and it changed the entire trajectory of my life. And I would not be where I am today without therapy, both therapy that I had before the show therapy that I had during the show and therapy after.

I love the part where you mentioned how you demanded therapy on yeah to show they were like, we have therapists for people who need it. You’re like, no, no, I’ll be doing this. Thank you. I thought that was just like such a boss moment. I was like, I love this.

It saved me. I was like, where are these people disappearing to? Like, oh, they’re going to see the psychiatrist.

What made me immediately- You mentioned 2020. And I just so one of the things I’ve always been really fascinated about with your story, as someone who before reading the book, knowing that you’re the first black Bachelorette, you sort of parlayed that success into this, you know, this, you left being a lawyer and you started to do ESPN stop, you have this podcast, like you’re a host, you do all these things. I’m wondering at what point and if 2020 Maybe was part of it, were you reflected back on your time at the bachelor? Did you ever like get angry? Or like, did you ever feel embarrassed or upset about what you experienced and how you were told that you experienced it? Like there seemed to be a disconnect from the outside eye of who you were, and who you are, from what I know. And then what I remember of you on that show and how you were portrayed. So I’m wondering if like, It all clicked for you at any point. And what that was like?

Yeah, I mean, there, I can point to the exact moment where I started to turn. And people were like, Wait a minute. And I guess, you know, this, this is such a great question. Because when I looked, I thought and I was being very much myself, right. But I’m on the show, but I knew that I was doing a TV show. So there was a lot of things that I compromise with, you know, some of it was just wasn’t worth fighting for. At the end of the day, I wanted to represent myself, of course, as a black woman, but then possibly find love if that option was there. But the more I stepped away from it, or I would talk to people who knew me before, it was kind of like, it seems like a watered down version of Rachel. And I think that that’s also evident when people say, Oh, I loved you so much more when you were on the show.

Oh my gosh, that’s so funny, because I’m so the opposite. I loved you as the Bachelorette. But now I’m like, Oh, I fuck with Rachel. Like, I don’t like I like Joseph. I tried because I’m black. And I’m like, she’s there. And she’s beautiful. She’s handling this so much grace. And like, she seems like a lovely person. But now I’m like, oh, yeah, I’m team team, big rage, big time. You know, like, let’s say the opposite. total opposite.

As my sorority sister says, you. She’s like you played the part, you know, under contract, you played the part. But then you turned around and called the franchise racist with your whole chat afterwards. And for me, I guess you had to understand why I said yes to Bachelorette. It wasn’t because I thought I was gonna find a husband. That was like, the surprise and at all it was because I wanted to represent myself right, as a black woman, and stand in this space as a lead when people hadn’t seen an audit of someone who looked like me in this position. And I never wanted to forget that. And so I was always going to come back and fight for more inclusivity because that shouldn’t end with me, right? So contractually, I couldn’t necessarily do that. But when I turned was a year to the date of my finale when I sat there, and I was blogging for Us Weekly. And I watched back a coup France finale. And I could not believe the stark contrast in what she experienced and what I experienced. And I remember I was in my hotel room in New York, and I was seething. I can’t even remember why I was in New York. I was seed I called Brian, I was going to write a totally different article. I call Brian and I read to him what I ended up writing out of pure emotion. I was livid. And he was like, send it and he got picked up everywhere. Because I watched her get her fairytale. And it took me back to they stripped that away from me. They put me on display for three hours and labeled me angry. Black female, right? And for Becca, who literally was sitting next to a homophobic racist, transphobic xenophobic man, right. They covered it up and wished him you know, kind of like, Oh, thank you so much for sharing that when he gave us absolutely nothing. And I was just watching how they protected her. But they didn’t do that for me at all. Right? You know, I turned to Peter and said, I’m living my best life. And I remember they cut to commercial. And I remember Chris telling me like you need to calm down. I remember producers telling people are going to be upset and I was like, because I told the man who’s living their best his that I’m living my best life. Right? So I that moment I wrote it like a scathing article, calling them out for who they are and what they’ve done. And it was like people turned on me ever since. And for me it was like out of contract. There’s no looking back at this point. This is how it is. I’m going to say exactly what I want to and how I feel right.

And that was I just that just set you on your journey. I, for people who don’t for people who aren’t like huge fans and don’t know, every single moment of the show like I do. What happened in your finale is that you had a live finale. And so you had to watch everything in front of a live studio audience. And you had had a pre breakup prior to picking Brian, who is now your husband of two years. Yes, two years. And so and they sort of made the guy that you didn’t pick Peter, it was a very emotional, you guys were crying. You had eyelashes on the floor? Oh, my God, I’ll never forget the shot of the eyelashes. And then, and then it made it like that Peter was the one that you really wanted. Not Brian, which is not the case. But that’s how it was edited. And then in comparison to what happened with Becca, she picked this horrible guy who had had these horrible tweets and like, like, like a woman’s place in the kitchen or something terrible. I don’t know. I can’t exactly remember and but they let him talk. And he was like, I just liked it. I didn’t know what I was liking. Like, I’m lovely. Whatever. Turns out he was a full thin blue line kind of guy 2020 really just he was he was fully fully Maga he had got he jumped the shark. But I mean, that’s their audience. So that’s what you’re talking about is that they gave him this lovely moment. And instead, they kind of put you on display and made you look like you are emotional, and you were faking it and all of this stuff. When flash forward five years, you’re still married to Brian, and Becca and Garrett are no longer. And now Becca has a snack with Thomas.

So I’m so happy for her. And it’s so funny because she was like, I didn’t tell you I was going to the summer show Bachelor in Paradise, because a lead has never gone. Right, right. And she’s like, I didn’t tell you, Rachel, because I didn’t. You would try to convince me not to. And she’s right. I would be like girl, what are you doing? I’m so glad to be wrong. Because he and Thomas are the absolute real deal, Brian, and I’ve hung out with them a couple of times. They’re fantastic.

That’s so nice. I have to credit a mutual friend of ours for all of my bachelor knowledge because I’m a huge fan of Juliet Lippmann who’s actually been on my show. Yes. And I know Juliet loves you. We went out to dinner when I was in New York. And she was like, oh my god, Rachel is the best. And I was like, I’m gonna try to get Rachel on the pod.

I love love Juliet. And then also for your readers who aren’t familiar with the show in the finale. What was also so jarring and I wrote about is that, you know, you understood why backup picked her guys, you couldn’t understand why it’s Brian, right? And then when Peter did tell me, Well, if you’re not going to be with me, you’re going to live a mediocre life. And then my response was actually I’m living my best life. He comes back from commercial. And Chris Harrison says, Rachel, you seem angry. I have yet to yell, raise my voice curse, roll my eyes. Nothing. I’m talking in a complete purposefully, I might say, in a complete monotone voice. Then Peter turns to me and says You attacked me. And I say, How did I attack you? And I know for a fact that producer fed him that during the commercial break. And he said You attacked me. And I said, How did I attack you? And he goes, he’s pauses a long pause. And he goes, I just I don’t know, because I didn’t write and and those are the same words that bachelor nation use for me. To this day. I’m bitter. I’m angry. I attack because of what Chris said and what Peter said. And it was something that I carried with me to this day. To this day, people constantly go back to she’s angry, she’s bitter. And they turned on me after that moment.

I mean, it’s just so crazy, because you know, you were the first black lead but there have been so many and I and I don’t feel that they’ve ever done right by them. I think they tried to get Michelle Money as reparations or whatever reparations 1000 100 land. But like, I mean, Matt James, they did him pretty dirty t shirt and a half season. I just I think like, I gotta be honest, as a fan of the show, I don’t go to the show to watch about race. I really don’t like I was happy that you got the opportunity. And I was literally like, okay, just go back to the white nonsense. Like that’s what I’m here for. You know, and like watching I don’t know if you’re watching this season, but I’m like, this is lovely. Because it’s just like white chaos. It’s like three blonde women hating each other. Like this is beautiful television. Like I don’t want to see Matt James interview his dad about prison. Well, like I am not here for that. Exactly. Okay, I want to kind of move off bachelor because there’s so much other like juicy stuff and interesting stuff about your life. However, I do want to ask you one more bachelor question, which is, are you just fucking tired of talking about Peter because I feel like you are the only lead who I’ve ever seen who still has to talk about the runner up. And you’re one of the few people who’s married like It’s like so crazy to me besides maybe like Ari, even though he never has to talk about back. And she won. And then he dumped her on TV. So I’m just like, does it piss you off? Or does it like irritate you at all?

I knew people were going to be obsessed with Peter. And I didn’t watch the shows before. But it is my understanding that before there was a Tyler Cameron, there was a Peter Krause. And people were obsessed with Peter in a way that they never have been before. Yeah. So it doesn’t shock me that people still ask me questions about them. Because they were they couldn’t understand because of their obsession. They couldn’t understand that I would say no, and I could possibly be happy with somebody else. It didn’t hit them. And plus, because our breakup was so emotional. It’s just something that people to this day still can’t let go of. There’s certain people who can’t move on. So it doesn’t bother me. It happened. It’s a part of my story. So I don’t mind talking about it. Because it also gives me the opportunity to tell the true story. right with it all, you know, and explain it. At this point. I just find it funny. For the people who still are like, you know, oh my gosh, you really want to Peter and like really, guys, it’s almost been five years. Yeah. darlin My wish for is for you to as well.

I hope that you find someone that loves you as much as you seem to love. You, you had a piece that came out today and people about some of the harassment that you’ve experienced, which was pretty brutal and disgusting. Do you ever think like, you know what, I just want to leave the public eye and be harassment free and like chill out in my home with my husband and my dog and just like vibe, or are you okay with being I mean, not okay. Not like you’re inviting it, but like are you do have some sort of peace with it.

I definitely have peace with it. What happened after the fallout from Chris’s interview was more I’ve never like that’s the first time I couldn’t handle it. I’ve always been able to handle it. I can take things in stride. I can, you know, like I talked about this in the book. It’s like your Lindsay, this is what you’re supposed to do. You put on your big girl pants and keep it moving. I can pretend and fake it and ignore my emotions. Even though therapy has taught me to stop doing that. With Chris, it just came it was so unexpected. And it just kept coming in every week was like a new piece. And people would get mad all over all over. I didn’t even watch the show. And that’s what was so difficult about it. So it was the first time that I got off social media. It was too much for me. I remember lying in my bed, getting on Instagram, seeing the negativity and I was like, You know what, I’m just gonna deactivate it. And I remember I call Brian and I was like, Hey, I deactivated my social. I’m good. Just letting you know. Not even thinking that was gonna be a news story. I did it for peace of mind. My phone blew up. Are you okay? What happened to you? And then of course, vans responses like leave. In that that just gets a little bit. Yeah, my back though. So yeah, it’s, I’m at peace now. Because I’ve moved past it. You know, of course, I’m talking about it on this book tour. And of course, I’m eight people are getting angry, like a candle. She’s talking about it again. But guess what, this is a part of my story. Right happened to me. And when it happened, I said how I felt initially, but then I stopped talking about it. You know, I went on my podcast, I did a couple of interviews. And that was it. Even when Chris got fired, I didn’t do interviews about it. So now I’m talking about it in depth, because this is a part of my story. And I’m not allowed people going to allow people to take it away from me. And partly, I’m at peace as well, because I was able to write about it. Now I was able to process it. And I was able to successfully move on from it. And I did get a lot of support at the same time. So that is the kind of attention I don’t like, right. But I don’t mind getting attention for speaking out on things that I believe in, or I’m passionate about at all.

And like one of the things I think is so interesting of about people like not wanting you to talk about it on your book tour just in general. Because that’s like so typical racism in America, right? It’s like this thing happens. You’re at your job, you’re doing your job, you’re asking like very benign questions. This white person has a meltdown of sorts, a verbal meltdown. I mean, He’s not crying or anything but like he is he’s he’s spiraling he spiraled himself out. And then you become the villain. And then you become a piece in his story as opposed to him showing up at your work and treating you poorly. Like it’s just it’s it’s just such an obvious example of how these things happen. And it’s so frustrating and infuriating to watch and like I know there are so many people who hate you because of it, but I also feel like on the flip there’s so many people like me who are like she handled that so beautifully. And like I’m so So glad that someone else has experienced this horrible thing that I think that is just the thing that happens to me. Not that I wish any of this on you, but you know what I’m saying? It’s like, yeah, and to be able to recognize it.

And it is it’s so true. And, and that’s a part of the book too is I want people to understand, you know, when I go through this essay of a nation of double standards, for some reason you want to scream to the rooftops about Rachel, how could you give her grace? Give her compassion? Where’s your understanding? Why is it that you can never apply that to me? Why can you never give me grace and understanding or understand where I’m coming from? I have to be doing something bad. Rachel had this master plan to trick this 50 year old man who’s been hosting a show for 19 years into saying the wrong thing. I must have done something, you know. So it’s just incredible to me, like, I swear if I if I was in the state of Florida, Governor Ron DeSantis, would be proposing a bill to shut me up because I’m making white people feel uncomfortable. You know, like, It’s wild.

It’s crazy. I’m like, he’s what Chris Harrison is one of the most media trained humans on the face of the earth. It’s not like he’s a contestant. I think maybe if it was like some contestant and like you had them on and you like, did a gotcha question. But it’s like, this man is comfortable with a microphone. Like he’s, he knows how to swim. He’s been around.

He doesn’t always constantly say that. You wanted to say that. And like when people ask me, why did you ask that question? It’s like, it was the most relevant question at the time. And I’ve said this, I think I said this once before, we were supposed to have Tyler Cameron on the show. Tyler Cameron bailed out. So thank you, Tyler. And just didn’t do show up to the interview. And Chris stepped in to do the interview. Instead, I would have asked Tyler the exact same question.

Right. I mean, it was the only question. That was all we were talking about. Like, that’s the thing. It’s like, it was the most basic shit. It wasn’t like you were like, Hey, Chris, are you a racist? Like, why are you so racist? Chris? Do you like the Ku Klux Klan, Chris? Like, it was like, Hey, Chris, can you talk about this thing that everyone’s talking about? My first question for you about sort of your writing process is in the book, you have this list from when you’re a teenager about your dream, man, your partner, then you have this list reappear in your 30s. And then you kind of deal with it at the end of the book. Was there really a list? And was this actually what was on it? Or is this a is this like a list like you pulled from your journal? Or is this a list that you sort of like compiled from your memories,

This is actually a mental list that I had, I didn’t actually write it down, and I put it in and the only thing that’s actually written that it’s put in that was written prior were my vows, like, other than outlining, and notes and stuff. But I absolutely had a list. And anybody who knows me knows this was it, which it’s ridiculous when you read the book, but I, every single one of those things was on it was a miracle. And I would talk about it I’d like, he doesn’t fit what’s all my mental list? Like, you know, I’m just passing by.

Right, right. Right. Right. And are you a journaler? Because it seemed like there was a lot of things that seemed like really specific, and I wasn’t sure how you pulled out those memories.

If not, sometimes, like, I wish I was Matthew McConaughey. And you know, for his book, green lights, and just really just pulled out all these journals to write the book. Gosh, I wish I would have done here and there. And I still have some of them from high school, but nothing to wear. You know, it’s like that comprehensive by any means. But when I when I finished the show, I started to write down things because I didn’t want to forget, I wish I would have done it while I was on the show.

Oh, interesting. Yeah. How did you I mean, you’re one of the most busy people How did you make time to make this happen? This book?

I love this question because again, it’s I’m very honest about all things there is absolutely no way I could have done this book. If I did not have a ghostwriter. If I did not have help shout out to Sophia Kim taro we have been working on this for over a year, like even in the bit in my busy schedule because I’m so type A, you know, we talk I’d write I’d send notes because I had an extensive outline already. Like of what I wanted. I knew I wanted essays. I knew I didn’t want chapters, I wrote down different subjects. I had even written like the foreword already. Like I had already started the writing process, but I just couldn’t get there. And I also need discipline. I’m a person who needs to be held accountable, believe it or not type A but it’s like organized chaos. So I need someone who’s like Friday, you need to have this to me by so the process was long of us just talking first just getting to know each other And that’s how I knew she would be amazing and helping me I wanted a woman of color, because I wanted a woman who understood certain things that I was going through at the time who’s been maybe had a similar experience or has been impacted by 2020. And the ways that I have has dealt with things in the professional world. And Sophia, and I could talk for hours and hours. And she’s an accomplished writer in her own right. And she does so much in the community as well. So as she’s Afro Latina, so that she brings in the perspective as well of me marrying a Latino man, so I just loved it. So she and I would talk, I would write, I would send her notes, she would transcribe it, we would talk, I’d look at it, I’d form an essay, she would write, and now you’re not even asked me this, I might be literally the show.

The first half is like about the content. And the second half is all about, like writing and process. So this is like my dream. So please continue. We’re all listening very intensely. Honestly,

it was organized chaos, it was a lot of back and forth of you like she would send me something. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, I said this, I’m like, oh, no, we got to take this out, like, I’m not gonna write this or Oh, and then I would rewrite something completely, or it would trigger another story. I’m like, Hey, let’s get on the phone. Let’s talk, let’s work this out. Let me tell you what I’m thinking. Um, she would give her input on things. She was really good about pushing me to go deeper. Because I would find the Lindsay and me saying like, Oh, that’s a little too much information. That’s too much. And she would hit me with the why. Why did you do that? Why did you feel that way? And our conversation, our conversations, honestly, should be a book as well. I would love to just and it was just a lot of Yes, girl and encouragement. And there were things that would happen in the world where we would just talk to each other about just venting and being upset about it. And then it would, you know, like, give us inspiration to write about something else, you know, like, that’s how I started writing about how when I start going into detail about ahmaud arbery. And talking about that, because of a conversation that she and I were having, and I was like, Man, I forgot to tell you about this moment. When this happened. And it just talked, we just it became an essay. So yeah, it was a it was a lot note taking outlining, I like in my notes, I’m a huge phone taker in my notes. I’m a huge Voice Memo person and my notes, I’m driving, I have an idea. It’s a voice memo, I shoot it to Sofia. she’d send me articles sometimes about different things. And so it was it was a great process. A lot of hands on a lot of back and forth. And to this day, Sophia and I have never met in person.

Oh, where is she located?

She’s in New York. Every time I try to get to New York, I’m too busy or she’s not there. She goes to LA and I’m not here. So yeah, one of these days together and we’ll probably.

Cry and hug and hug.

So indebted to her. I am so grateful for her that she was patient with me kind understanding took the time to get to know me. And, you know, like really wanted this book to be as successful as her and I feel like a lot of her is in this book as well. Like that’s like a sister to me.

I love that so much it. It’s very rare, just by the nature of this show that I get to talk to someone who’s had a ghostwriter. And so I never got to talk about ghost writing, which I’m always really fascinated about because it’s so like hush hush a lot of people either don’t talk about it, for whatever reason, or a lot of people don’t know about it at all. So I’m really grateful for you for sharing a little bit about your experience.

Yeah, I don’t like to pretend I’m not gonna I’m not gonna pretend that this is not extensions. I’m not gonna that I, you know, haven’t had like Botox once or something before. I’m not going to pretend that I didn’t that I wrote this book all by myself. And I just speak thinks so highly of Sophia that it would just be doing a disservice to not honor how helpful she was with me writing this book. Right?

That’s so interesting. I’m curious about when you’re doing your notes and when you’re like pulling your ideas together, where are you? How often are you doing it? Do you sit down and sort of sit to write or are Is it always like note taking on the go? Are you listening to music, this parts important? Are there snacks and beverages? Rituals, candles, like set the scene of sort of how you are creating this book?

I am really a person who has to be inspired to write, okay, I am not like okay, this Sunday, I’m gonna block out time to write. It just comes to me after a conversation with a friend after reading something in a book after podcasting, after you know, like maybe watching a real housewives episode after a conversation with my mom. And then and when I get the like the itch or the whatever you want to call it when they inspiration hits. I can just go and like, and I am in a zone. But I what was helpful in having a ghost writer is there was more structure to it. So I could block out like, Okay, this conversation has been transcribed. Let me put this together like, Man, this needs a lot more this doesn’t really explain. Like I have the outline and the bones but this there’s no no meat to it. This doesn’t explain why this happened. This is a little disjointed, it’s not connected. I can be a little wordy, which I am in the book, but that’s actually real life. And I did want people to I didn’t want people to feel like they were sick when they were reading this book. Like they were talking to me, because people know me so much from talking. So yeah, the book is a lot. A lot of words. It probably could have been whittled down a bit. But I’m already so it reflects me.

It definitely does. I feel like you could hear your voice through it. Which is really interesting with a ghostwriter, too, because it’s like, I think that I know, but it’s you and then it’s like, Oh, someone else like helped. But that just goes to show that we all that’s helped.

That is how that is shows how involved I was. This wasn’t just like, hey, I’m gonna tell you this. Later. She got me, we got each other, it was very much so back and forth. But to answer your question, yes, that’s how that is how a lot of my writing is. But when I block off time to write and when I’m my best self writing is late at night, okay? When everybody’s asleep, there is nobody is going to text me. I can’t be distracted by social media, really, there’s nothing on TV. And I like to play old school. Like I have to have noise, old school 80s 90s r&b something that I might be writing, but I’m singing along at the same time, I have a glass of wine. And I am in my space. Like it’s my office. And I’m just going Ryan’s asleep. The dogs are at my feet. I just love that. It feels like I’m the only person in the world. And that is when I can you really really get going.

You’re giving me major like term paper vibes.

And that’s how I would do my last midterm. It was exactly how I would do it.

That’s exactly what it sounds like. It’s like everyone’s asleep. Like you’re vibing out to your music. Like I gotta get my work done.

Don’t you feel like you’re the only person in the world and that, for some reason is just so inspiring to me. I’m vibing in that moment. I love it. Hey, I’m gonna take a moment. That’s it for sure.

Do you have any snacks?

Not I’m not a snack or period and low.

No, Rachel. Rachel.

This is the this is the joys I guess of being or not really joys but just the issues with being a picky eater. I’m not a snack or I don’t really nibble. Wine is my snack. You know, I’ll Okay. bottle in here and glass and just if anything, it’s gonna be peanuts. It’s so boring. I’m just I’m just not a snacker.

So I am the opposite. I’m a super picky eater. And so I snack a lot in case when it comes to mealtime. There isn’t what I like. Because I don’t like to be hungry. Yeah, so I have I eat snacks too much. But i What kind of picky eater Are you? What’s on your do not eat list? Textures?

I’ve learned this in my older age. I can’t handle the guacamole, the avocado, the mashed potato, the applesauce, the chili the oatmeal, like you see it or anything like that. Yeah, hold on it. And I don’t like spreads. So everything has oil based so I can’t have like what like a white wine sauce on my like a cream sauce on my pasta. It’s gotta be gotta be can’t be creamy. I can’t handle that kind of stuff.

So interesting. I’m a flavor picky eater. I also don’t like guacamole though. I’m disgusted by avocados. But I can I love a mashed potato. I like I like a creamy moment. I don’t I don’t like a lot of like vegetables. A lot of vegetables disgust me. Just very. I’ll do that. As I get older I get better. But I don’t eat eggs. I’m not into eggs. I’m not into avocado. I’m not into like, it’s just tastes for me like so. There’s no texture at all that matters. I mean, maybe there’s some textures. Cottage cheese is not a texture.

It has to sound smell, taste and look right for me to eat it. Okay, so I understand what you mean. If I think about an egg too long. I can’t eat it. Because there is but I like eggs. But if I think about it too much that they have to be cooked the perfect way and if not, I can’t eat them. I can’t eat a hamburger because I can’t stand ground beef. I look at it it disgusts me. So there’s something about the look. Yeah, it’s a mental thing.

It’s I have a lot of problems with ground meat. Things like meat balls grossed me out meatloaf is a hard no any Mix sure of like, I so I have a little bit of what you have. And then I also just have like, I don’t like it. Like my nephew used to say that looks like something I don’t like.

And that’s me. And that’s me. I’m still a child.

No, he’s 30. Now, this is what he used to say when he wasn’t good. Yeah, yeah. How do you preserve or tap into, to your creativity?

Oh, um, you know, life inspires me. So that’s why I’m big on. So it’s not like, granted, I do meditate. And there are moments when I’m inspired. And I feel creative after a really successful meditation. But I feel creative when I’m out in nature. So I love to walk my dog and put my air pods in and listen to absolutely nothing. Because I’m soaking in all the surroundings around me. I’m thinking about certain things, ideas come to me. And I love that they also come to me when I take a bath. I love a bathroom. I love a bath law with the bubble bath with the candle in the dark. Maybe I have one maybe I have grapes, one of my okay, my favorite snack or a cup of grapes. So and I’ve been since a child, my dad used to wash them off. For me. It’s like a It’s a thing. So there you go.

Thank you.

I feel very inspired and creative because I’m completely at peace and relaxed on a road trip. Especially when I’m by myself. I am very much so when I take that’s when I do a lot of voice memos. I feel very creative, especially out here in California. When you’re driving past the water. I look up and I see the mountains and there is something so breathtaking, not having not grown up around mountains to look and see mountains in the distance, especially when there’s snow cat. I’m just very inspired by by nature by the water. Yeah, long walks.

I love that I love that I like I like a long walk. I actually went on a walk right before I came back in the house to do this. Okay, this is a very important question. Everyone who comes on the show gets asked this question. What is one word? You cannot spell correctly on the first try?

A lot. I don’t know but let me just tell you let me say this. Okay. You ever come across where? You like the most simple word you for some reason? can’t spell and it looks wrong to you every single time you see it on a page? Yes, I did that with a word that I can’t even believe it was it was because it’s only two letters. Okay, I can’t live with me. I one time could not figure out how to spell of it. I love I love this sounds so stupid. But I for the life of me was like oh V II like what? I don’t know why in my mind I could not process of this sounds so bad.

No, I this is not this is true.

Like I don’t know.

I know. It’s this question is what I love about this question is that people I’ve gotten the I’ve gotten there before like people forget the difference between the there’s I’ve gotten some you know, Renaissance I think was whoever was last week or you know it ranges restaurant is a very popular word that people can’t spell and I am a terrible speller. But that’s like the one word I can spell. And so every time someone says a restaurant, I’m like, what an idiot.

I can’t spell cinnamon. I always cinnamon.

Too many consonants.

Like whenever there’s a double and there’s like broccoli, like two C’s or two L’s L.

I think that’s the word.

Like cinnamon I struggle with that.

I’m with you. Anything with a recommendation is always the word that is the hardest for me. There’s too many opportunities for too many consonants. And I’m just like, No, it’s done. I don’t know. And I use that word a lot. It’s impossible. Okay, I need to know how you and Van got paired up to do higher learning. I don’t know the origin story somehow.

Oh, so it’s, I wish we could say that we were the geniuses behind it. But it really was Bill Simmons who created the ringer. Bill is a fan of The Bachelor. So I used to come on Juliette Whitman’s podcast on bachelor party. And I would talk and Bill loves that I had an opinion and kinda was like didn’t really care who I was upsetting when it came to the bachelor. Like I was gonna say what I felt. And we did this Hulu show one time where it was like me, Ben Higgins, Lauren Zima. And I think Nick was I can’t remember. And anyways, Bill was just kind of like we became cool and we talk and have these conversations about Batchelor. Then one day he said like I want to work with you. Well, the crazy thing is, I’m in heavy notetaker. And so I had outlined all the different areas I wanted to work in, in the media and who I wanted to work with back in 2018. Bill Simmons was one of those people. So just to know Him was cool to talk with him was cool. But then for him to say, I want to work with you. I’m like, Okay, this, I’m manifesting this, or I did manifest this. So he said, Rachel, don’t you want to do something you’re really proud of? And he’s like, you’re doing batch of stuff. You’re giving opinions but like, still showing you something you’re passionate about? It was like, Yeah, I do. He’s like, I have this idea. I really think you should meet this guy, Van Latham. And I’m like, Oh, I know who van is. And I’m like, the TMZ. Guy. So when he goes to van and says, hey, you need to meet this girl, Rachel. He’s like the Bachelorette. So both of us were kind of like, Oh, we didn’t really know, right? one another in depth like that. And Bill’s like, Hey, I’m going to, you know, sit you guys down. We’re going to meet whatever we met, we all went to lunch. And we talked for hours and hours. That could have been the podcast, just those conversations. And that’s how we met. And then I just like have this insecurity that like people don’t really like me that much when they meet me for some reason. But this is this is an insecurity of mine, specifically with black people because of how I grew up. Sure, sure. So it’s more so like, oh, like Vance’s cool black guy, he probably thinks I’m the square. That is my, because that’s what we used to say to me, a couple of The Bachelor Bachelorette, all that stuff. And he was like, why would you think that we talked for hours? What do you say? Like, I thought you’d be so cool. So from that moment on, we were like, we want to do this thing together, we both bring different perspectives. When it comes to the black experience. We grew up different. We kind of argue naturally like brother and sister. So there’s really this dynamic already in place that we don’t have to work on. And then we were supposed to actually start in March 2020. But then that’s right, when COVID hit, I was gonna move to LA and everything. And I was still in Florida at the time. And then van as he’s been open with on the podcast, really struggled at the beginning of COVID with his mental health. And so I thought he just didn’t like me and didn’t want to do the gas. Again, totally.

I got it, I got it.

And then he was like, No, I was really struggling. And we had one practice. And it was so good. And Bill was like Bill was on the call. He’s like, normally people have to do this over and over again. You guys got it. And we just from from then on, we just hit the ground running. And now we’re a year and a half in it. And we’ve only done it virtually except for one time it was in person. But the video messed up. So no one’s ever seen it. So it’s like it didn’t happen. Right? So I just can’t even imagine how great the podcast is going to be when we can be face to face and have guests in studio with us. And really play around a lot more.

Oh my, well, if you guys are ever looking for a book person to come talk about books. I’m in LA, I’m available anytime

Rachel Lindsay 53:07
I didn’t know you were in LA. Oh, we should get together.

Traci Thomas 53:09
Yeah, let’s do it. I’d love that. Okay, I know we’re running out of time. So let me do my last like little ones first. But I want to know if you know what comes next for you. I know technically, it’s not out right now. So I’m like kind of stressing you out. But for people listening, the book will be out. You can get it now. But do you know what’s next?

No. And, and I think and I could never say that before and be okay with that. And that’s how you what you get in the book, which is why I have these life plans. I have planned out every single detail of my life. And in the moment I was doing exactly what I was supposed to do with the man that checked the boxes. The job I was supposed to have, I did not feel fulfilled in life, until I started doing things for me and what I wanted to do rather than what I should be doing. So I think there’s so much beauty and saying I don’t know what’s next. Never in my wildest dreams, could I imagine that I would be podcasting and I would enjoy it so much. I’d be hosting a show or you know, as a correspond on the show on TV, I’d be writing for meta, you know, just all these wonderful experiences meeting so many great people writing a book, oh my goodness, like I never saw this for myself. So I I know I want to continue in this space. I know I want to continue to do things that I’m passionate about. I know I want to do things beyond bachelor. I know I want to create. I know I love talking to people and learning about them and telling their stories. So I want to do things where I can tell other stories. I want to continue to push for change. I want to continue to represent myself as a black woman in all spaces. And I want to have a family. That’s one thing I can say like I really want to put my effort in. It’s easy for me and natural for me for career first career career. I really want to take the time and be more proactive with Growing our family.

I want all of these things for you this sound like great thing, so we’re gonna just manifest it, you manifested Bill Simmons, we’re gonna manifest the rest of the list. What’s the one thing that you hope folks will keep in mind as they read your book?

Oh, I would just like them to strip their mind of everything they think they know about me. And try it. Think of this book as a blank slate of you’re getting what you? Yes, you know, pieces of me, but in a controlled way. When the narrative is told, for me, it is in certain spaces. This is me. These are my words, my feelings, my emotions. Think of it as I’m gonna get to meet Rachel, for the very first time think of this as a rebirth. And go into it with that mindset. Because then I think you can see me a certain way I hope people hate read this book. Because then I hope you walk away. And you’re like, wow, I hope you realize that, you know, wouldn’t you think of The Bachelorette, and we’re supposed to be the most eligible person in the world that with that, is there’s amazing things that happen. But there’s also a lot of hardships. We’re not perfect. There’s a lot that happens prior to coming on the show. And there’s a lot that happens after, don’t glorify us, don’t treat us like we’re not real people. Like because this book is real. This book is me as a human being not as a Bachelorette, not as a correspondent extra, not as a podcaster on higher learning. It’s like me as the person.

For people who love this book for people who think this book is awesome and great and want more things like it, are there any books you might recommend to them that are sort of in conversation with what you’ve done? Like other memoirs, sure, other memoirs that you think maybe speak to similar issues or anything, whatever, you know.

I haven’t read one since becoming Michelle Obama’s book because I didn’t want my book to be like someone Rice’s. My publisher gave me other essays. And I started to read those like, no, because my head, but what I will say I enjoyed about becoming and what I definitely was, like I want to keep in my book is Michelle Obama talks about how kids teased her growing up in the neighborhood in Chicago, and something she struggled with. And I was like, I have something in common, I got shallow. But not that miss me with that is on any level of becoming, but I related to her in the sense that she also did everything she said she was going to do. And then she took a turn and decided to go work for the city. And like detour from the big job law firm, that she had to do something she was passionate about. And I loved that because I think so many people can relate to that. And we’re scared to do it. But then we do it and it just makes our life so much more rich. So yeah, it’s hard to say what books I mean, books I’ve read lately, your caste. I just bought the 1619 project. A funny book that I did read and I wrote a blurb for is Danny Pellegrino ‘s book that’s coming out. Oh, okay, how do I unremember this and it’s like the book of essays as well. And it is so good. It is so interesting. I’m a big fan of him from his podcast. Yeah, but he tells a lot of stories, but nobody can tell a story like Danny.

Oh my god, I love that. I have to get that book. Are you are you gonna blurb vans book? I know you guys talked about on the show.

Rachel Lindsay 58:41
I don’t know. You know, he didn’t blow our mind. So maybe he’ll he’ll feel salty. But to be honest, nobody did.

Traci Thomas 58:46
Yeah, I didn’t get a finished copy yet. So I haven’t seen any blurbs. I didn’t. I didn’t.

Rachel Lindsay 58:51
One to ask people to read it before. And then I got super insecure. I just I tell was like, See, I want people to realize this. I’m I get so insecure about things.

Traci Thomas 59:00
And I was like, I love this about you. I mean, I don’t love it for you, but I just makes you so relatable. I’m like so insecure about every single possible thing. I totally lied.

And I thought I was like, I don’t want people to read my book and then hate it when they read my book and they have nothing to say. So between that and my schedule. I didn’t get anybody to give me a blurb. So you know, Yvan wants me to Absolutely. I’m gonna do it.

I can’t. I’m very excited for his book as well. I have no idea what it’s gonna be.

Like, man.

Oh my god. I have so this is total tangent. But when van’s father passed away, my dad died about 10 years ago, but I actually had to turn off the show when he was talking about his dad because it made me so emotional the way that he like honored him. I’m gonna cry right now. But it was just so special. Anyways, people who don’t listen to higher learning, if you like this show, you’ll love higher learning. It’s totally different, but it’s great. This is my last question. Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

Rachel Lindsay 59:56
Oh, no, I’m just gonna say it’s just about higher learning. I think that that is the beauty of it is one thing Ben and I have promised ourselves is we don’t shy away from anything, whether it’s some type of controversy, whether it’s an emotion of what we’re feeling, we bring that to the podcast because we want to treat the thought lawyer community. That’s what we call our listeners. As family. So you know, I I hate that you had to turn it off. But I love that it was something that you could connect with at the same time, because that’s what we want to bring to our audience.

Traci Thomas 1:00:24
Yeah. So good. I do think I went back and finished, but I was like, I can’t do this. Like came on. I was like, I was sectoring. Yeah, the whole it was just a lot. Last Last Last Last Last question. If you could have one person dead or alive, read your book. Who would you want it to be?

One person. You know, the first thing just because we’ve been talking so much about Dr. King, I would say Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. But then I would be totally

Insecure.

Rachel Lindsay 1:00:53
Embarrassed for him to read it, so I’m not going to say him because I could never take the nerve if he was alive to say like, Hey, you should read my book. I would alive I would want Michelle Obama to read my book. Dead. I would want Lucille Ball to read my book.

Traci Thomas 1:01:06
Oh, love that. Did you see Being the Ricardos yet?

Rachel Lindsay 1:01:10
Yes. I did.

Traci Thomas 1:01:11
I haven’t seen it yet. Did you like it?

Rachel Lindsay 1:01:12
I had no expectations. And it was so much better than I thought it was going to be I don’t like the it’s very Aaron Sorkin so like, I don’t like the setup and the way it moves. But I like it. I learned stuff in it. And I as an diehard, I Love Lucy fan. There were things I don’t even know.

Traci Thomas 1:01:31
Oh my gosh, I love that. Okay, well, everybody. We’re gonna get out of here now. Rachel, thank you so much for being here.

Rachel Lindsay 1:01:38
Thank you so much for having me. This has been so much fun. Yeah, we got to get together.

Traci Thomas 1:01:42
1,000% everybody else we will see you in the stacks.

All right. That does it for us today. Thank you all so much for listening. And thank you to Rachel Lindsay for being my guest. I’d also like to thank Morgan Height for helping to make this interview possible. Remember, the stacks book club pic for February is I live a life like yours by Jan Grue. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, February 23rd with Tessa Miller. Everything you’ve heard on today’s episode can be found in a link in the show notes.If you love the show and want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join The Stacks Pack. Make sure you’re subscribed to The Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you’re listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from The Stacks, follow us on social media at thestackspod on Instagram at thestackspod_ on Twitter and check out our website thestackspodcast.com. This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Megan Caballero
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Ep. 203 I Live a Life Like Yours by Jan Grue -- The Stacks Book Club (Tessa Miller)
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Day 5 -- Banned Books in The Stacks with Kiese Laymon