Ep. 200 Passing by Nella Larsen -- The Stacks Book Club (Cree Myles)

Written By Megan Caballero

Today on The Stacks Book Club we're discussing Nella Larsen's 1929 classic novel Passing. We're joined again by Cree Myles, the creative force behind Penguin Random House' All Ways Black, to discuss this story racial passing in the 1920's. This episode touches on the history of passing, the 2021 film adaptation, and the central question of freedom.

There are spoilers on this episode.

Be sure to listen to the end of today's episode to find out what our February book club pick will be!

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08
Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I’m your host Traci Thomas and it is time for the first Stacks book club discussion of the year. We are discussing Nella Larson’s 1929 novel Passing, and we’re joined again by Cree Myles, the creative force behind Penguin Random House’s All Ways Black platform. We talk today about the history of Passing, the movie adaptation and of course, that ending. there are all kinds of spoilers on today’s episode, so please read the book first and come back and listen. All right, everybody. For our first book club episode of the year is passing by Nella Larsen. We are joined again by the wonderful, talented, amazing everyone’s favorite laugh or Cree Myles. Cree, Welcome back.

Cree Myles 2:17
Thanks. I’m so happy to be here. And now I feel self conscious about my laugh.

Traci Thomas 2:21
Oh, no, everyone loves it.

Cree Myles 2:22
I’m not laughing.

Traci Thomas 2:24
Good luck. I got I got more messages about your life than I ever have bought in about any podcast ever. But how many people loved it so please laugh really make the show better. Okay, I just told Korea I’m so bad at recapping the book at the start of these episodes. So I have made set an intention to do that in 2022. So the book is passing by mela Larsson. It was written in 1929. Yes, there will be spoilers today on this episode. If you have not read the book, you’re going to want to read it. It’s like 150 pages and we’re going to talk about the very intense ending. So don’t be that person who ruins a book for yourself. Just read it. But that being said, here’s the quick summary. Irene, Claire, two women friends from childhood. They run into each other at the Drayton hotel or something. They’re having tea and smelling cigarettes and they spot each other. Irene is like I don’t know that white woman and Claire’s like I know you. You’re Irene. Turns out Claire is not white. She’s black. She’s passing. But Irene is also very fair. And then the whole book goes from there. It’s about passing in the 1920s to friends, tensions, sexual tensions, jealousy tensions. social tension. This shit is tense. Okay, economic tension, economic tensions, spousal tension, ooh, racial tension. All the tensions except for the tension band you use at your at home workout, thank you.

Cree Myles 3:55
To grow those glutes. Period.

Traci Thomas 3:59
Anyway, okay, that’s my, that’s my recap. We’re gonna get into everything. We always start here create what did you think of the book?

Cree Myles 4:05
It’s brilliant. Prior to reading this book, I didn’t know that passing was its own like sub genre of literature. There are so many pieces of fiction written about passing because it was just like an epidemic of sorts that were just triggering nowadays. But I haven’t read any of the other ones. But the people that I’ve talked to who have read them is like there’s a reason that passing is the classic like nela gave us some timeless stuff in here. So I asked like it’s literally my favorite kind of book, literally.

Traci Thomas 4:42
But what does that mean? What is your favorite kind of book about this?

Cree Myles 4:45
I love a book that takes me back a period piece. I love that. And I love when I can still access it even though it’s a period piece. And so like I have all of these tabs and I was going through them in preparation for or this conversation, but so many of them were just around language because in 1929, they just wrote differently. And so the words and the sentence structures and the phrases, and just I love a period piece that centers the glamour. And like, this was just it was the Harlem Renaissance. Like it doesn’t even get like more black bougie America than that. So I loved all of that so much.

Traci Thomas 5:27
Okay, love this. So glad you loved it. I obviously love this book as well. I did not obviously, but I do love this book. I’ve read it now twice. So I read it last year for the first time in anticipation of the movie that I never watched. And then I read it again, in anticipation of this conversation, and then I watched the movie. Well, we’re gonna talk about the movie also. But we’ll save that for a little bit later. Okay. As I mentioned, there’s a lot of tension in this book, which I love. I, I talked so much about how I don’t like fiction, because I think sometimes what happens in fiction is the author is trying to do a lot of things and they forget to do the thing that the audience needs, which is like, tell a story. Give us some like conflict, give us some tension, create, create that energy within the piece. Yeah. Now, Larsen, she did not forget that she put it on heavy, thick. There are I people also know this about me. I love a scene. I love a scene. Yeah, I will sit through a description of a tablecloth for 60 pages. If at the end, there is a dinner scene with a family know that about you. I love a scene. And there are so many scenes in this book. There’s obviously the first scene where they meet where you’re like what’s happening. This is very intense and strange. There’s Yeah, obviously the scene when we meet John Bellevue, there’s the scene where we get Hugh the author of Yeah, that’s a fucking scene. Holy shit. There’s obviously the tea pot breaking scene. And then there’s the ending scene like the in this book is like 130 pages. Like there’s so much juice. And it’s so short. The other thing that I love is what you mentioned. It’s so readable. The writing is like so accessible and unpretentious. And yet, it does have like a style to it. That is not our contemporary literature. But it’s interesting, because you’re like, Oh, it’s a period piece. And it is for us, but it was contemporary literature at the time. Yeah. Like she was writing about the book takes place in 1927. And she wrote it in 1929. Like it was that she was like writing, given her background, right?

Cree Myles 7:39
Like she was low key high key writing what she knew I that’s so true. Tracy, anytime we’re experiencing a period piece, it was contemporary, at some point, have you seen that meme about somebody doing the dance to Mozart stuff? And they’re like, this is what they were doing. And 17 It was not I dropped this.

Traci Thomas 8:00
I think some can some older books are period pieces. Like they’re like Shakespeare wrote about Julius Caesar. And like, that would have been a contemporary that would have been a period piece at the time. But then like, this is this was the contemporary literature of the time, which I think is just really interesting. And I want to get into that a little bit about like what she was writing about in the time, but okay, we have to start here. Where are you Team? Claire, or team Irene?

Cree Myles 8:33
Claire, all day. Period.

Traci Thomas 8:37
What’s that about? Shouldn’t we hate Claire? Shouldn’t we be like, you’re a race traitor? You’re bad.

Cree Myles 8:43
Okay, well, this like so when I was going through and like revisiting I realized a part of this that really I was kind of obsessed with is Claire, it was like we have to come to terms with as if we really want black people to be liberated and be able to just exist as full humans. That means that we have to reserve the right for some black people to be okay with like, their blackness just being a side part of their identity and the like the main part of it and Claire was just like happen to be black but also much preferred the finer things in life by any means necessary. And if we’re really about liberating everybody that kind of has to be okay.

Traci Thomas 9:27
Yeah, no, so I have this later for the conversation we should talk about it now. One of the things that I find like really interesting is that Irene clearly has this like sense of ownership about blackness and what is black and who is black and like it’s a very, you know, she’s she’s, there’s a policing of blackness, if you will, right. And like she’s earned and like part of it, I mean, this is I was trying to like, think about it, like, Why is she so uptight? Why does she care so much, especially knowing that she has passed in social situations to like have access right? Like she’s not like dark skin, she’s not living this life of like, total and complete oppression because of her skin color. She’s doing the same shit when she wants to do it. But she’s also married to a black dude who is presenting black and like, she’s kind of like trafficking in both spaces. But I’m writing like, she feels maybe that she’s earned her status. And like, it’s not something that other people should get to play with, or whatever. Like, she feels like she’s like, put in the time being a negro. And I’m like, You’re not gonna pass for white and then come hang out with me and my black and also like many white friends, because that’s the other thing. She’s like, friends with white people. Yeah. But that made me think of like, Isn’t Claire claiming blackness just as much her right and experience as it is Irina or Brian’s? Or Gertrude or whoever else in this book, or any of us? Like? I think that there’s this sense, when it comes to passing the practice of passing, that a lot of black people did it, because they didn’t want to be black or didn’t like being black.

Cree Myles 11:10
Yeah, I just don’t care about that. It was never about that. I mean, everybody has probably most people have this internalized like whiteness in them, like White is right, that if they don’t unpack will manifest because white supremacy is the water right? It’s not in the water. So I mean, in a lot of ways, I think people are subconsciously drawn to things that present more wider so then we we get into like issues of colorism and texture ism and blah, blah. But I mean, all of that aside, people just wanted rights to things that they should have had rights to anyway, like, It’s absolutely absurd that Irene had to pass for white to go get some tea when it’s 100 degrees outside. So and I think it’s obvious in as we like the development of Claire story in the book, she didn’t want to be white. She just wanted to be rich and bougie.

Traci Thomas 12:11
She wanted to wear those dresses, those guys. Beautiful gowns. Yeah. And like, because also the history of passing it started, obviously. I mean, not this might not be obvious to people, I shouldn’t say that. It started during the time of slavery. And it was a way that people because here’s the other thing, I never had thought about this until I read one drop by Yaba Blay but I think that people because of like depictions of slavery in movies, and and in popular cultural culture, in general, think that all slaves were black presenting, right? And that, like the field slaves were darker skinned, and the house slaves were lighter skin, but like my complexion, right, like not superduper fair. And I think what people forget is that because of the sexual violence and rapes that happen on plantations, and because of the one drop rule, there were hundreds 1000s of slaves who were white presenting today, you would look at them, and you would think they were white, because they were 1/8, Black 116, yet black. And so the practice of passing started, so that people could have their papers to be they would they were trying to be free. Blacks of color, or free, free slaves, free men of color, whatever that term was. And so it started in slavery time to like, try to get to their families, they were passing for White to get out of slavery. That’s where this all started. Later, it became more of like a social thing that people did. And it became like, sort of in vogue of like, Oh, are they black? Are they white, but it started in slavery. And I think it’s really important for people to remember that a lot of slaves looked exactly like the white people that owned them. Yeah. And like, I don’t think we talked about that enough. Like, I was looking at these old pictures, and I was like, That is a white baby. It was like a white. It was like a white slave, you know, Fanning and it was like this child is 1/32. You know, like, that’s like a great, great, that’s like one black great, great, great grandparent. So it’s like real far. So I just want to throw that out there. I don’t know what my point was. But I wanted to make it.

Cree Myles 14:27
Definitely, it definitely speaks to the like absurdity of race, certainly social construct, like and I think that that is something that most people aren’t aware of, of how obscure and random it can be. Because at the end of the day, especially when we’re talking about like the roots of the issue, it was really just meant to serve as capital for rich white men. So if I can get you to be black so you I can keep owning you then that takes priority, which is just It’s wild.

Traci Thomas 15:03
Right? Right. I mean, an economic system. Not anything other than that. A business, you know, a business exactly is a money making endeavor,

Cree Myles 15:14
and the rules will change depending on how they could benefit the people who are making them. Like that’s, that’s just the bottom line.

Traci Thomas 15:23
Oh, yeah. Anyways, so back to Claire. Claire is just, you know, we all know a Claire.

Cree Myles 15:30
We all know, I look, all of the things that I underlined about Claire, I’m like, I would like to be clear, she don’t care. Yeah. It’s like Clara’s team, Claire. And it we feel like it’s problematic. But maybe it just feels problematic because of how often we just don’t see black women who do that for themselves. Yeah, like Claire was like, I’m gonna get mine by any means necessary. And I Loki feel like that should be celebrated. And we’ve seen the Irene million times before the woman who like sacrifices, whatever convenience for the name of this big thing that maybe with low key abandon her if it got too hard, which oftentimes also happens to black women.

Traci Thomas 16:19
Yeah, yeah. So true. It’s like, you don’t have good depictions of Claire. I don’t think there’s a baddie. Yeah. Claire’s about it. We love we sand Claire. I love Claire. Claire is we talked about this last time you were here how much I love Gone With the Wind. And Claire is Scarlett O’Hara, she is that, do whatever it takes for me and mine, get mine wear beautiful dress, be whatever I need to be in the moment. Okay, so here’s another thing that I feel like, I’m really excited to ask you about about the book because I I have not seen a ton of conversations about this when people talk about the book. But to me, it was very glaring. Which is this like, selfish versus selfless? Motherhood?

Cree Myles 17:05
Yeah, you’re right. People don’t talk and because like we’ve never met Claire’s child.

Traci Thomas 17:11
Yes. Um, and which is saying something,

Cree Myles 17:15
Which isn’t implied. Right. I don’t know if nella had kids or not. I was thinking about that as we were. But that’s a really good question. Because a huge part of Iran’s identity is obviously attached to the fact that she’s a mom. And you would assume that would be anybody who’s a mom’s like a portion of their identity. And we always just kind of get side eyed when we aren’t like, like wearing a pinafore. And, like baking biscuits, mother’s you know, and like, ambitiously wanting something else. So I really, like I fuck with Claire. In all the ways, you know, like even her mothering. I like I get it. Because Right, wow, this is it’s I’ve, you know, I’ve raved about how much more balanced my life is now that that goes to daycare four days a week, right. But there’s definitely like, stigma around that.

Traci Thomas 18:15
I mean, there is because there’s so many depictions of Iranians and popular culture and not nearly enough depictions of Claire, right. Like, we just think that that’s what being a mom is. And I think like, obviously, culturally, a lot of things have changed about women and their abilities to work and lead and create and like, not just be in the workforce, but be doing something like you’re doing like consulting for a major publishing firm on your own, like doing your own thing. Like that just wasn’t a possibility before. So of course, we don’t have depictions of those types of things in the 1920s or 1970s. In a lot of cases. You know, when women first started working, I was like, you work for a company?

Cree Myles 18:55
No, absolutely. And like childcare like they both have like these hired hands and their house, right, but it’s still is looking like the majority of childcare is supposed to still fall on the mom. Right?

Traci Thomas 19:07
We need to talk about the childcare.

Cree Myles 19:09
Oh my gosh, what is there and it was her name is Sophia Z. What was the woman’s name?

Traci Thomas 19:15
I wish I could remember it’s not gonna come to me.

Cree Myles 19:19
You know, what’s super interesting is after I watched the movie I read because you know, Brandon Taylor is the vine and I am the branches. And Lena Lena I found Arzu Lena Yes. And he talked about how disappointed he was that like the movie didn’t take an opportunity to give us a richer backstory on her like, you felt like that was a really missed moment. That was interesting to me, because I didn’t really think about it.

Traci Thomas 19:41
Yeah, I mean, it’s also like the line where John in the scene with John Bell Bell, Lou Bell, you where he’s like, he’s like Nick hates hates me even more than I do. She won’t even let us have a black housekeeper or whatever. And I’m like, I’m like that is the greatest line in the entire book. because as a black person, of course, we’re all sitting here being like, yeah, because they would know that this was trying to be white. But like, we will call that out.

Cree Myles 20:08
and immediately excuse me says, Oh my God. Oh, John Bell, you I would love to talk about the satirical character. That is John the end that whole scene. Yeah, that was my favorite scene in the movie, honestly.

Traci Thomas 20:24
Yes, it is. It’s, it’s, I think it’s my favorite scene in the book as well. I think it’s my favorite scene in the whole thing. It’s just so. Okay, really? We have to talk about the movie slightly. Yeah, of course. Of course. So I like the movie. Yeah, my biggest issue with the movie. Is that Rebecca Hall for whatever reason, somehow I don’t even know how she did it. She removed so much of the tension from the story to me. Yeah, like, yeah, I don’t like it’s like a it’s like these little switches. And the reason I want to bring it up is with this scene is that in the book, we slash Irene. We don’t know if John knows that. Claire is black or not, we don’t know, until after until later. We find out later that he doesn’t know. But membership when he says nig. She’s like, did he? He must. Yeah, right. And in the movie, before he ever comes into the scene, Irene asks, Claire, Does your husband know? And she’s like, Oh, no, no, no. So they’ve neutered that entire scene. Because now we know that he no doesn’t know that she’s black. And so it’s like, there’s no Oh Ha ha ha, they’re in this joke together. Irene is stressed out because she doesn’t know what to do. I really knows what to do in that scene.

Cree Myles 21:47
I removed that other character other cares, like screwed, right, which would have also offered another layer of tension because then I ran at least could have had somebody to play off of right, like, okay, so you’re sitting with two partners. So maybe like we I don’t know, they were probably in cahoots, but like Gertrude, are we what are we doing about this? You know?

Traci Thomas 22:07
Exactly, exactly. And I just feel like, because the other thing that I really like about the book is that I don’t know if you found it this way. But I found Irene to be a super unreliable narrator. Yeah. Yeah. Because we’re not in her perspective. In the movie, like she’s not telling us the story. She’s not like editorializing what’s happening. We are just taking her experiences as truth. And so that removed a lot of the tension for me too. And so while I thought it was beautiful, and like, I think the acting was good, I think Ruth Negga was like incredible. And Andre Holland was very good. And Tessa Thompson I thought was strong, but it’s sort of a not very fun part. Like you have Ruth Negga like getting to be Claire, and then you have someone who has to like play Irene was like sort of a downer couldn’t be me, but like, you know, it’s a thankless part, but she was she was good in it. I just was like, the I got bored. And it wasn’t I thought like, oh, it’s because I knew it was gonna happen. But I reread the book before knowing everything that was gonna happen and was like still on the edge of my seat reading the book. Yeah, movie, I was sort of like, okay, get there.

Cree Myles 23:15
I know that your attention and just a lot of the other people who I like have talked to who didn’t read the book missed so much because the internal dialogues that were happening, and you’re right that like, how unreliable Irene is, like, do we even ever get to the bottom of whether Ryan was actually even considering messing with Clara or not? Or was that just an invented thing? And I read his head. It was it would have been hard to follow if you hadn’t read the book. Right?

Traci Thomas 23:47
So that’s really like there’s a lack of subtlety in the movie. Like in the movie it’s they have a conversation about it. I’m like,

Cree Myles 23:55
No, yeah, no, no, I think that I think the movie should it could have taken more time like sure the book is short but like in order to capture all of the nuance that’s happening within those relationships I think they would have would have needed more time to build it out.

Traci Thomas 24:11
Yeah, yeah, I agree and also in the book I don’t know if you noticed how many times Irene is either says or disk is described as like being in a rage but constant I read is like a is curious about at all Yes, yes. I did not get back at all in the movie. Like not once did I think this woman isn’t in a rage. I thought she was like losing her shit. But I did not think like there was no fire for Irene Yeah, I feel like in the book that’s what I liked most about Irene as I was like, Oh, this woman is unstable. And she is becoming on Yeah, like this is very scary. And like very intense. And and the movie it was more like she was irritated that Claire was destroying or was like in she was irritated that Claire was inconveniencing her life. But in the book, she was in a rage that Claire would dare, like, do anything around her. And like, yeah, difference is huge to me when we’re talking about comparing the book and in the movie.

Cree Myles 25:21
Yeah, I wonder like, like, are you sure that she was enraged? Like, I do, like, I do definitely think that she was unhinged. But I would I do think it was like a more subtle unhinge. Yeah, but I do think it was too subtle in the movie, like in the, like the opening scene where she just kind of says that, like her husband couldn’t pass. And her kids are oh, she was talking about how her children are dark because Claire was stressed that her daughter would have been dark. And there wasn’t enough bite behind that. Like, because then she she apologized late. Like she was like, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to be rude. But I wasn’t even sure that you were rude. Unless these are like 1920 decorum things that we owe, you know that?

Traci Thomas 26:10
Oh, I can see that. Yeah. And there is that line in the book. It’s on page 49 In my copy where Irene says it was Irene thought Annville unbelievable and astonishing that for people This is in reference to the John Bel using that for people could sit so unruffled so obsessively friendly, while they were in reality seething with anger, mortification, shame. And I think that like that is like sort of the crux of the entire the entire book, right like that. Like, there’s all this stuff going on underneath. And really, what’s being presented on the outside is like a totally different story. And I think in the book, obviously, Larson is able to explain that to us with words very directly. And I don’t think that Rebecca Hall was able to fully get that duality of emotion and performance, I think, I think that Claire is able to do it. Yeah, I think Ruth Negga is able to do it. I don’t know, not only I don’t think it’s actually a Tessa Thompson thing. I think it’s a directorial thing. I just don’t think that Rebecca Hall set up i reamed character to be able to do it, because we lost her point of view. And like her unreliable witness, like she kind of stripped that, because she presented it as more of a neutral point of view. Obviously, obviously, Irene is still believed and like, it’s still her story. But it’s not presented through the lens of Irene. Right, like, so again, that tension is missing. And so I feel like we don’t see it as much of like, the, the, what’s going on on the surface? And then what’s going on underneath?

Cree Myles 27:52
How do you think that fixable, like what could she have done differently? Because I mean, this text, again, as we’ve said, is excellent. So there had to have been a way to do it.

Traci Thomas 28:02
I mean, I think the obvious choice, which might have been done, and I don’t know that I would recommend it would have been to like do like a voice over thing. I thought about that. Yeah. And I thought about it while I was watching it, and I’m not sure it’s the right choice.

Cree Myles 28:14
And so I do like adding, like adding scenes that aren’t in the book with like, that would be like side. sidebar conversation.

Traci Thomas 28:22
I mean, she added some texts that wasn’t in the book, like in the scene with Hugh, another scene that I love at the party in Harlem. There’s the line. There’s like, he says something and then about like, aren’t we all passing? Or she says, We’re all hustling for something, aren’t we? And that’s not in the book, that line, right. So she did add some like pretty intensely pointed language to the book, to do a lot of signaling. And so maybe she could have done more of that since she was doing it anyways, you know what I mean?

Cree Myles 28:55
Yeah, I kind of just want it to happen again. Like if somebody can do this again, in 10 years, I feel like we could have a cleaner go around, because it was a nice effort. At anytime I see a write up about the movie, people are always talking about the shadow as a character, blah, blah. So I’ve always like wondering if that’s where they spent the majority of their time, like on the line?

Traci Thomas 29:17
And yeah, like the black and white and like the lighting? No, I mean, I mean, so here’s the thing you have, like, if you cast to visibly, obviously black people, which I feel that they did, I think that Ruth Hartley are black, and even more Tessa Thompson, I think she is black printing 1,000% I think you do have to pour a lot of time and energy into the lighting and the black and whiteness of the film because you have to make it somewhat believable. But I also think that that was like a super duper choice in the film to cast black actresses because I think like that I do think that’s one of the things she got right was casting, obviously. I mean, I don’t know maybe they’re not here’s the other thing. I don’t know if they’re obviously black to white people.

Cree Myles 30:00
That’s always the lesson.

Traci Thomas 30:03
I was like trying to squint at Ruth Negga and being like, would I believe this is a white woman?

Cree Myles 30:09
I can’t I cannot do that. I was thinking about that every time because I just I don’t know how white people experience race I really so I don’t know, right?

Traci Thomas 30:21
Because like for me, I get asked if I’m Indian from India all the time when my hair is straight freely, which I don’t I mean, who knows? I don’t I don’t think that I look Indian. I also get asked like if I’m you know, Haitian which has like a lot of like, you know, native Yeah, you know, Creole all of that. I get asked if I’m Ethiopian when my hair is straight, which you know, like, and like a Haitian and Ethiopian are also like part of the black diaspora, etc, etc. But like, it’s just very interesting that white people cannot identify me as what I am. As soon as I straighten my hair with no other changes, like no makeup, no costume, no lighting. It’s just like, I had a flat iron today. Yeah. And so like I part of me is like maybe these actresses are appearing white to white audiences. But even if they’re not, I think that the choice to cast visibly black actors actresses for black audiences is very smart. Because it that adds the tension. Right? Like we know you’re black.

Cree Myles 31:30
Yeah, I love you know, you’re black.

Traci Thomas 31:32
We are with you. There’s no question in any of our minds, whether or not you are passing, we see what’s going on the entire time, which I love as a choice.

Cree Myles 31:44
Yeah, it helps like it felt like we were centered in that way. And think like it was the storytelling was for us. Even I’ve said this before, like the act of passing. Like, because when I talked to Netflix about this, I was at my grandparents house. And my grandfather is like, Hi yellow. Okay. And he like when I said what I was talking about? who’s like, oh, yeah, yeah, great, blah, blah, blah. Theodore used to do that every time when he had to go up to such and such because he didn’t like to ride on the color train. And I was like, okay, so this is just like, it’s been a forever thing. So it’s, and so maybe that’s another reason why Hall decided not to give us as much backstory, because she was kind of like, y’all already know what it is, like, you know, like, so I’m not about to like, hold your hand through the story. This is how passing looked? I don’t know.

Traci Thomas 32:40
Right? I 1,000% agree with you and your family about about that. I mean, I think also like, for most black Americans, there is someone in your family or family adjacent, who at some point was passing or knew someone passing like, yeah, it was super duper common. And it was a thing and like, I think that because it’s not something that’s talked about a lot openly. I think that this book has brought on a lot of like, outside non black people being like, wow, this is a thing. And it’s like, yeah, there’s a thing. Yeah, thanks to y’all. You remember the first time you ever heard about or saw, like, a representation or passing in any way?

Cree Myles 33:26
Um, it was learning about my grandfather, because like, I asked him when I was a child, what his father’s name was, because I he talked, I knew his mom hate his mom had him when she was 16. So they were closer in age. So I knew my great grandmother for a while, but I was like, so what was your dad’s name? And he just like really quickly and shortly was like, Theodore, like his DMO demeanor completely changed. And so when I asked my family about, like, my mom, like, what’s up with Grandpa talking about his daddy, and she was like, I mean, his dad could pass. So he had like, accidentally gotten this dark skinned girl pregnant. And Theodore spangly was like, Well, I don’t know what you think we’re about to do. But Theodore is about to go be a doctor and then like, he’s going to be able to do I’m not sure if his intent was to pass as white or if he was just trying to like upward mobility with like, a woman who was educated and lighter skin or whatever absurdity. But um, he his family was not about own my grandma, father or his mother.

Traci Thomas 34:36
Hmm, interesting. Interesting. Wow. Yeah, it’s crazy. Crazy. Yeah. My first is with this is like I should have gone first minus the movie showboat the movie musical. Do you know show about it? What are you talking about? I don’t even know Who’s in it? You know the song Old Man River? Sing it. Oh, okay. I’m a terrible singer, Old Man River.

Cree Myles 35:08
Oh, yes, yes.

Traci Thomas 35:09
I do from that musical. Anyways, there’s a character in that musical who is like an actress everybody loves and then it comes out spoiler alert, she is passing and she’s like, you know, more ruined. She’s really, she’s a cruise. But I remember watching it as a child and being like, wait, what’s going on? And my mom being like, she’s black. And I’m like, okay, but like, what’s going? What’s going on? Like, I like had no idea. I’m pretty sure the actress was white. But I like don’t I haven’t watched the movie probably in 25 to 30 years.

Cree Myles 35:41
Maybe so that’s the premise of the movie.

Traci Thomas 35:43
It’s like one- it’s like the major there’s like multiple it’s something musical. So there’s like multiple plots going on. But like that’s the major like Fallout. You know, the song can’t help loving that man of mine. Fish. That is sweet. Yeah, that is also Showboat. That’s Showboat. Oh my God, that’s a white guy. Or maybe she loves a black eye care. I literally can’t remember- all I know is that she was passing. I actually should have like looked up the plot. All I remember is that she was passing and I was confused. And then I was like, Oh, okay. Tea. All right. Wow. People are tripping on the boat. This boat is toxic.

Cree Myles 36:27
Damn, like everybody’s real pressed that she? Oh my god. That’s hilarious. I need to watch that now.

Traci Thomas 36:33
Right. It’s a great it’s a great racist film. Like, it’s like a deep- talk about problematic. Like, I feel like it makes Gone With the Wind look lovely. Show. Like, it’s just like, not i I know. It’s bad. I don’t even remember. And I know it’s bad. That’s how bad it is. So one of the things we have to talk about that I don’t know that I’ve equipped to talk about, but I want to try is true. Before I ever read the book, I remember hearing people talk about how like, it’s not just passing about race, it’s also passing with, like sexuality. And there’s like, this queer element in the book. And I’m curious what you thought about that? If you had heard that before you’d read it or seen the movie if you felt like it was in the movie if that like I’m curious, your thoughts.

Cree Myles 37:27
Um, so I heard that in reference to the movie, okay. And like watched. And I really do think that Ruth especially did a masterful job of bringing in type of any, like sexual tension. I didn’t see it in the book. But as I’m not a member of the queer community, it could just be like, my lens is foggy. So I don’t like I don’t appreciate it in that way. But it really mostly like if I’m seeing it through my boring hetero lens. Irene just kind of felt like an insecure woman whose identity was too closely attached to her marriage.

Traci Thomas 38:11
Interesting. Okay. So I think that I have a similar foggy lens, for sure. Yeah. However, I did a little I did a little reading. I did a little digging. There is a book by Deborah E. McDowell, that came out in 1986. I believe it’s just called quicksand and passing which is, which are the two Nella Larsen novels. And she has written extensively and one of the things that she says in this essay is that the idea of bringing a sexual attraction between two women to full expression was too dangerous of a move in 1929. So instead, Larsson enveloped the subplot of Irene is developing if unnamed and unacknowledged desire for Claire in the safe and familiar plot of racial passing. And so like sort of in this way, the book itself is passing for something that it’s not right like that. Oh, yeah. That Larson is like trying to sneak in this like, woman desire for another woman. And one of the things that that made me think of is like, if that’s true, if that’s what Nella Larsen was doing, it makes a lot more sense why we keep hearing about Irene rage because there’s this inner tension for her. It’s not just about Claire being black and like, trying to be white, but also wanting to kick out with the homies. It’s also about her not wanting her back, and like and her realizing that like her whole shit is a sham and like, that makes the rage make a lot more sense. Yeah, you know, yeah, like this extra. It’s like, not only are you trying to kick it with my friends, and you’re not even being real with who you are, but you’re also not interested in me and I am interested in you and your fucking my husband. Allegedly. Right? Is she but it’s just like that tension. And that’s what drives the whole shit. Right? Like that’s what drives Irene and when I read that and thinking about it through that lens, I liked Irene a lot more.

Cree Myles 40:14
Okay, yeah, that does make her much more dynamic as a character.

Traci Thomas 40:21
When it’s so subtle that I don’t, I didn’t really pick up on it in the book. There was a few moments where I was like, Okay, right, you’re feeling you’re feeling a little needy.

Cree Myles 40:32
A little unhinged was the perfect word for me, Tracy, I was just like, and you know what it really was? Because you know, whenever anyone is in front of me, acting unhinged. I’m like, I feel like you need to have sex. So this would be this is full circle. I feel like, and-

Traci Thomas 40:49
Brian tells her like, sex is a joke like, Brian, could you be less of an asshole? Who tried like, could you just actually try a little bit to not tell your wife that are pushy, ancient, and you want to fuck her friend? Like, could you just try?

Cree Myles 41:05
Look, look I because that was that was the other part like not because we talked about how players come in and she wants to hang out with the homies and blah, blah. But also it was made like, Come like, painfully clear that Claire was beautiful and charming. So not only is she coming to hang out with the homies she’s also taking up all of this space.

Traci Thomas 41:26
Yes, everyone loves her more than Irie right so I have we’ve all been there. Oh, I’ve definitely been there where it’s like, oh, my friend and then I’m like, Oh, no. unmeet my friend.

Cree Myles 41:39
That was my competitive ask. I’m always I’m always the clear. You’re not about to be more interesting than me. as I age though, I find that harder to achieve.

Traci Thomas 41:47
It’s true. It’s, um, as I like to say I’m old unwashed. Exactly. I can’t tell you this face. I used to it’s over for me. But it’s I’ve had I’ve had some occasions where I’ve brought someone in and I’ve been like, oh, no, you’re never coming back right. Here. Is there an open window? I can just-

Cree Myles 42:06
Oh my god. Oh, JC that makes perfect sense. Because if she was doing that, then yeah, I really wouldn’t want her to keep coming. But she keeps inviting her back. So then yeah, sis isn’t love, just say that.

Traci Thomas 42:23
But I just love this idea that like Nella Larsen was trying to pass her her book about like, a woman in love with another woman and a woman’s desire for this racial thing. She’s like, oh, people are fine talking about passing like no big deal. But we can’t talk about like, lesbians. Yeah. Not even close.

Cree Myles 42:44
Oh my god. Yeah, that’s fun. That’s refreshing.

Traci Thomas 42:46
Yeah, I made me appreciate the book even more. And like, you know, I’m sure there’s much more scholarship about it. But I reached out to a bunch of people smarter than me being like, Hey, what should I read about this? And everyone was like Debra McDowell. So that’s where I went shout out to the people who helped. Okay, I think we should talk about the affair with Brian. Okay. Yeah. When I read the book the first time this is gonna say some terrible things about me. So please just know, I have talked toxic traits myself. So I have toxic entrenched toxic masculinity.

Cree Myles 43:18
And it’s going to be unpacked throughout this life. I’m sorry.

Traci Thomas 43:23
You know, recognizing as a first step. So here’s the deal. Brian, when I read the book, the first time, I suspected that Brian was having an affair with Claire. Before it was ever suspected by Irene in the text. There was like an early moment where I was like, Oh, she she’d be dancing with him a lot. Yeah, at these parties. However, when it was then presented by Irene, like, I think, love with Claire. I was like, Nasus just trippin. And I immediately was like, what? I immediately was like, I don’t know. I feel like she’s putting a lot on this. Do we really know that? He’s cheating. Like, I immediately went to defend Brian in like the super grossest way. Again, I mentioned I have some toxic traits. The second time I read it, I felt very clearly that Brian was cheating and then watching the movie, Rebecca Hall and myself were both like, there is cheating happening. Rebecca wants you to know we’re going to talk about it. So I feel strongly that Brian was cheating. That is super interesting because I we have to hold on we have to tell people, Cory and I are having a lot of childcare issues. Here the violence is so loud crease son’s violin lesson just started so we will have some beautiful black background ambiance for the rest of this conversation. Please take this as an offering from the art gods.

Cree Myles 44:51
Amen. And shout out to Ethan shout out to baby period, the baddest Yes, I am That’s super interesting because when I read it, I did not. I thought that I read was tripping too. But I don’t I would like to think and maybe I’m being a contrarian just because of what you just said. I would like to think that I didn’t I wasn’t coming to Brian’s defense. I just didn’t think Claire was that sheisty interesting.

Traci Thomas 45:23
So I also could have been some some of my Claire love, but I definitely flipped on myself.

Cree Myles 45:29
You said, Oh, my God, this negation disintegration? I really like this negation. You’re like, is he mad?

Traci Thomas 45:36
He’s very stressed. He really wanted to go to Brazil.

Cree Myles 45:39
Brazil, you made him make money to take care of these children.

Traci Thomas 45:43
In Harlem and have a horrible life throwing parties.

Cree Myles 45:48
Oh, my God, that is so funny. Yeah, um, I do think that the way it was played in the movie, for sure, it looks obvious, like when they were walking up the stairs. And when I ran came down from the stairs at one time and the way they were looking at each other. Yeah. And even as I just came to Claire’s defense, I’m thinking like, but didn’t I just say 20 minutes ago, that clear was about Claire.

Traci Thomas 46:10
It says that very clearly. And I think in the movie, there’s that scene where they’re like, outside and Claire’s like, I reindeer. I’m sorry, but I’m gonna do whatever I want. And I don’t care who I heard.

Cree Myles 46:20
Yep, yep. Or whatever. Yeah. Oh, I mean, this, you know, obviously, it’s always going to take me to Sula. And like the Forever conversation about like, the demonizing of like an adulterous woman. And if there’s another place that they belong in society, because I don’t really think demon is the route.

Traci Thomas 46:43
No, no, it’s very it is. I hadn’t really thought about this as obviously in conversation with Sula, even though I think about it as conversation with the vanishing half. And when we did sue on the show, Brett Bennett was our guest. So either clearly in conversation, but for some reason I didn’t really quite make that third leap. True. Yeah, for some I got real stuck somehow. But yeah, I mean, it’s weird because I don’t fault Brian nearly enough.

Cree Myles 47:13
Me either. But it’s I think it’s because it could be because like, because we’re getting the story from Iran’s perspective. And all of that whiny, unhinged moment. Can kind of cloud a large portion of the things that she’s telling as true because they are they’re just kind of annoying.

Traci Thomas 47:32
Right, right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. And because if we take the like, unrequited love of Claire line through, we’re getting it skewed through that lens. And so she’s more she’s more upset that Claire is fucking someone else than she is that Brian is cheating on her. Right. Like she’s not fucking Brian either. Yeah, horrible.

Cree Myles 47:55
Really?

Traci Thomas 47:56
I don’t know. I’m so torn. I like love and hate everyone in this which is like, like, do I want to defend

Cree Myles 48:04
It was Andre Hallett? Like that doesn’t help at all because all I see is moonlight. And I like was rooting for him, you know? Yeah. In moonlight. Yes. So obviously, I’m clouded.

Traci Thomas 48:15
Yes, oh, so good. Moonlight is so good. Talk about fucking lighting. Shit.

Cree Myles 48:22
Period!

Traci Thomas 48:24
I mean. Barry! And not Obama. Okay, I’m going to do this is a super like, I never do this on the show. But I had a moment of, oh my gosh, is this foreshadowing, which is like super English? Okay, okay. Well, you know, on this show, I like talk about books, but we don’t really talk about books like English class, like, we don’t know the names and like, we don’t talk about like, nobody needs that. Right. But there’s this moment in the book and in the movie, where Claire and and Andre, Claire and Brian are flirting. Yeah. And Irene drops the Confederate T. Yes. And then Hugh is like, Oops, I bumped you. And she’s like, No, you didn’t. Yeah, I broke this thing that is cherished in our family because it was ugly. And I was like, in my second reading, I was like, oh, Claire definitely was pushed by Irene. Like to me that was foreshadowing what happened later? Like, no, this is not an accident.

Cree Myles 49:33
Traci, you killed this second read. Oh my god.

Traci Thomas 49:38
I was plugged in the second read.

Cree Myles 49:40
That’s brilliant. What you just said is brilliant.

Traci Thomas 49:43
Do you think that I’m right, then?

Cree Myles 49:44
Yes, that makes perfect sense! The thing is, like dropped and fallen. Because you know, I’ve only read the book once and when I read that scene, the person who took up the most space to me was Hugh because he confirmed everything that Irene was feeling So that like, that’s the thing that took up the most space in that scene. And then when she kept going on and on and on about the tea pot, I was like, Sis, why are you rambling? But, I mean, if they are, she’s actually in love with Claire and can’t take it and Claire’s and Claire’s ruining her life, it would make perfect sense that that’s the reason why she pushed her out of the window. And it would be brilliant of Larson to give us a little heads up. I love all of that.

Traci Thomas 50:26
Yes! See? I should I should do this more often. I don’t do it more often, because I never can see it. If this one for some reason for me, like just like, popped out. Normally, I’m like, No, I don’t know. I don’t know what a theme is.

Cree Myles 50:44
Well, the themes are always like an ego clash would always be like love. And I’m like, wait, what? That’s so obvious English class.

Traci Thomas 50:51
English class themes in this book. Would it be like, friendship. Jealousy.

Cree Myles 50:58
And I went to like a predominantly white school, so it would actually never at all be race. Yeah, just for the record. We would never actually mention that.

Traci Thomas 51:05
It would be like, attention to detail.

Cree Myles 51:12
Exactly. Yeah, that’s what we get you in a um, the quiz. You guys pregame to all the high schoolers listening.

Traci Thomas 51:19
That’s the other thing I used to always feel like it was like, Whatever you said was a theme. Like I could just say like, blue and the teacher be like, wow, wow. Like? Yeah. Oh, my God. Sorry. I’m already in college. I’m getting a Ph. D.

Cree Myles 51:36
Sorry, I wish you could do better like me, but sorry.

Traci Thomas 51:41
Okay, so let’s talk about the ending. What did you What did you think? Was it a push? Was it a faint? Was it a push from the white man, John Bell? You back on the scene with rage for the neg?

Cree Myles 51:53
Yeah, you know, I will one I like to think always that when authors leave it ambiguous that they don’t I always assume that they didn’t have a preference to which way it went. But, um, I talked to Robert Jones, Jr. About the ending of the prophets. And he had a clear desire for what would happen, like, to the character’s mind for it. I was like, What crazy. So given that I would love to know what Nelo was happening, what mellophone it was, but I really, um, I guess this is the lever in me that like, it doesn’t matter. I didn’t even decide whether she was pushed or not. Because it doesn’t matter. Claire’s gone to Irene relief and Irene has not been accused. Boop. Like that’s a lever when in my book. So if I’m not accused of pushing her I did it. Period.

Traci Thomas 52:51
Right. Right. So I am a Leo. And it was a murder. Thank you for coming to my TED talk. No, I mean, I immediately text three friends upon with the first finish first reading. They were like, What did you think? And I was like, I think a murder occurred. And they were like laughing at me. They were like, Are you sure? I’m like yes. Yeah, I don’t I don’t think it was John Bell. You know, John Boehner didn’t even get close. If anybody killed her.

Cree Myles 53:24
It was it was Irene for sure.

Traci Thomas 53:27
Irene, in the movie. It was like a gentle sort of backhand. A little to the side. No, it was that but there was more force, I think. Oh, man, I think it was intentional. But you know, I understand that there’s ambiguity I understand that you could read it however you want. I myself as a person who loves drama. I read a murder. There’s been a murder on the sixth floor.

Cree Myles 53:50
You know what I guess? I do actually believe that I read killed her. But I like it more than I read just gets to keep living her life. Yes, like she killed her as she gets to move on. Yes, agreed. Irene is like done because she was just bet like she was just like second fiddle to Claire throughout the whole book like character wise so since this is your time to shine like this is it take up space attention like it is attention all on Iran period the West she came down she came down the stairs Oslo Claire died and she’s still like this is my moment what everybody should be looking for me. Where am I? I’m cold. Help me out. Oh my god. Claire died. What are we gonna do? Comfort me this is my friend. I was like period, Irie.

Traci Thomas 54:33
She took over Claire’s energy. She’s like, she’s like I want it all.

Cree Myles 54:38
It was that scene in Little Mermaid she made her yeah, she sucked it in Ah yeah. Period. I love I’m here for that I’m here for that.

Traci Thomas 54:46
I need a sequel where Irene just fuckin takes Harlem by storm. She takes all of Claire’s old dresses is just like fitted out gets them ahem to get to them resized.

Cree Myles 54:55
Bleaches her hair. Period. And is everywhere. Just giving-

Traci Thomas 55:00
Like who’s the blonde bitch now, motherfucker.

Cree Myles 55:04
I love it. Yeah, that’s what we need. We need some fan fiction.

Traci Thomas 55:14
Somebody somebody please write Irene. New city New Life.

Cree Myles 55:20
Right, we’ll take it to Chicago. New Rene.

Traci Thomas 55:25
Rene’s back, bitches. Chi town. Yeah, perfect. We lost it. We fully lost it. This is fine. This is a sad ending and we’re like making jokes. And I don’t care.

Cree Myles 55:41
It’s okay sad. It’s rich people sad, even if they’re Black, so.

Traci Thomas 55:46
Exactly, exactly. I’m trying to think if there’s any Oh, okay, this is the last thing that I have. And then if there’s anything else you have, we have to know. So there’s this line, where I think I don’t even know who says it. But they’re like, is anyone ever completely free or happy or safe? I think it’s clear. And I thought about that a lot. Because after I finished the book, we talked about Reggie last time, homie, the homie Reggie, who is, you know, brilliant.

Cree Myles 56:09
A year older.

Traci Thomas 56:11
A year older, happy birthday. He, I was messaging with him. And he was like, Well, who did you think was more free? Oh, no. I know, Reggie come on the podcast. And I I said I thought Claire was more free. But I don’t think that I’m right. I know, think that that’s what I think.

Cree Myles 56:36
I think I reigns, lack of freedom, in a lot of ways was, like, self induced, like if she wouldn’t have been so obsessed with controlling other people’s reactions. And like, basically reactions and decisions, I think she would have been happy as hell because at least she didn’t have to hide her identity. You know, like, Claire clearly wasn’t that happy because she kept like, risking everything to go hang out with the people who made her happy, you know, right.

Traci Thomas 57:16
She definitely wasn’t happy.

Cree Myles 57:18
No, oh, free. Right. Well, that yes. Same there she because then she could have just been able to move in and out without, without the fear of her husband finding out. So I think the person who had the greater potential for freedom was Irene.

Traci Thomas 57:35
You’re forgetting that Irene was black in the 1920s in America.

Cree Myles 57:39
Oh, yeah. I mean, I-

Traci Thomas 57:41
I feel like a lot of the freedom that Claire had came from being perceived and pretending to be white.

Cree Myles 57:49
I immediately went existential and start thinking about Emotional Freedom. Like you’re so like, yeah, she’s black in the 1920s. But you have this beautiful community that you can lean on. You have a like, financially, you’re comfortable.

Traci Thomas 58:04
But your husband is black, black, you know, your kids are black black.

Cree Myles 58:09
Yeah. And I mean, that’s just like, that’s just is what it is to me. Like, I don’t, I feel like since I’m here right now, and 2022, there was somebody in my lineage and 20 in 1920, who I hope was living their best life as much as possible, despite the fact that it was 1920. And they were black. So I don’t want like all of society’s absurd rules to be a hindrance to Irene be like being emotionally free, you know?

Traci Thomas 58:43
Sure. But I don’t know that. It’s just I mean, when I think about is anyone ever completely free or happy or safe? I don’t know that. To me. It’s not just about Emotional Freedom.

Cree Myles 58:53
Well, no, I mean, but that’s what I’m saying. I think that I really do think that emotional freedom supersedes any other type of freedom. So even I don’t know, go on.

Traci Thomas 59:06
I don’t think that I don’t think that emotional freedom supersedes freedom, freedom. Like I don’t think that if you’re in prison, and you’re emotionally free, I don’t think that supersedes the fact that you’re in prison. Well, I think that physical freedom and the ability to do shit, and do what you want to do, physically with your body and move it in places and be able to make your own decisions is I don’t think you can be emotionally free without some sense of physical freedom and independence.

Cree Myles 59:37
I completely I completely disagree only because there are so many people with physical freedom, who are so emotionally enslaved, that they’re afraid to do anything with that.

Traci Thomas 59:47
I think you can be way I do think you can be physically free and emotionally unfree and I think that that is possible 1,000% But I don’t know that you can achieve full Emotional Freedom If you are physically restrained.

Cree Myles 1:00:03
What about that Derek quoted and becoming abolitionist when Frederick Douglass decided to fight back?

Traci Thomas 1:00:12
Yeah, what about that?

Cree Myles 1:00:12
I think I think that he is he had made a decision in his brain, that regardless of how he was treated physically, that emotionally, he was never going to be owned anymore. And I think that makes a big difference in people’s outlook on life.

Traci Thomas 1:00:26
Sure, but I think he was fighting for that physical freedom, right like that, the that the goal was to get out of the bondage.

Cree Myles 1:00:35
But he didn’t know if he was going to succeed or that. And I will say, with Nat Turner, he didn’t succeed. But he still made the decision to do it, because he wanted to take some of the physical freedom back, but he would have not had been able to have the courage to take back the physical freedom if he hadn’t have made the emotional decision first.

Traci Thomas 1:00:54
Right. I’m not saying I’m not saying that you can’t have some degree of emotional freedom. I’m saying that I don’t think that you can disregard physical freedom from emotional freedom. Like I think that they are intertwined. And I think that the thing is that with Matt Turner, or Frederick Douglass, or anyone who fights against oppression in that way, who’s willing to risk their life for a greater sense of freedom, whatever that is, in their case, whether it’s slavery, prison, you know, police brutality, whatever, I think that that decision is because they know they can’t have the next lick can unlock the next level of freedom without the physical aspect of it. And so it’s worth dying over.

Cree Myles 1:01:36
Yeah. But how did this you said, you don’t think one is more important than the other?

Traci Thomas 1:01:41
I think that they’re connected. I don’t, I think one might be more important than the other for certain people. Like, yeah, each individual might feel you know, a certain way about, about physical versus emotional freedom. But I think that like they’re so deeply intertwined, I just don’t know that you can disregard physical freedom. Like, I don’t think you can transcend emotional freedom without some sense of physical freedom. I think that that’s always there, that the body and space is a thing that cannot be removed from the mind and the soul. But that’s just me.

Cree Myles 1:02:16
Yeah, I don’t, I don’t believe that. I think that the mind and soul exists completely separate from the body. I mean, like, maybe once, I don’t know what I think about what happens after we die, but that I mean, that argument would throw a lot, I mean, turn a lot of religious people on their heads, if we didn’t think that they could be separate from each other.

Traci Thomas 1:02:39
This is a good place to say that I am agnostic. And I was raised Jewish, and we don’t believe in an afterlife. And so that might be part of where my thinking is doesn’t I don’t feel stuck by that question at all.

Cree Myles 1:02:54
Yeah, I don’t I don’t know if I believe in an afterlife, but I do. I know that I strongly believe that your thoughts determine what how you experience things I do. I strongly believe that. And so when I’m saying emotional, I’m saying, What are you doing internally, to manage what you’re experiencing externally? And I think that people who do work to internally train their brains to a certain direction, experience the world differently, probably with a greater sense of freedom than people who don’t and are just reacting.

Traci Thomas 1:03:35
Sure, sure. I agree. But here’s the thing. Okay. Let’s turn it back to the book. Yeah, I don’t think that Irene is that.

Cree Myles 1:03:40
No, no. I never thought Irene was that.

Traci Thomas 1:03:44
But you think Irene could have been that potentially, if she unlocked some shit?

Cree Myles 1:03:48
Yeah, if she would have just if she would have done the work. I just use air quotes around, like, why are you so obsessed with controlling other people, which obviously, I don’t know how prevalent therapy was in the 1920s. But I do think if she could have been able to, unlike that, she would have been able to move around the world with a greater sense of freedom. Whereas because of Claire’s value system, if she didn’t take time to unpack that, and the fact that she was denying such huge parts of herself for this economic upward mobility, I just think that, um, she she wasn’t even on the same emotional plane to like, like the starting line was so further back from her because of what she was worried about, which I think stems from the fact that she grew up poor, you know, so when, like, if you’re in survival mode, you don’t have time to do the meta shit. Like you’re just trying to make sure that your physical is safe. Right, right. And so I just don’t think that she had capacity to do that type of work because she was just trying to survive, which I’m not even mad at. I just don’t. I just like sure she was physically free because she was one bypassing but that doesn’t. That literally is not interesting to me that people are physically free because they don’t ever any even do anything with their freedom.

Traci Thomas 1:05:08
Sure, but I also feel like, I feel like Irene had the greater potential for freedom. And I feel like Claire had the greatest freedom within the confines of the story. Like she never the fuck she wanted, she was passing, she was hanging out with the black folk, she was talking to people’s husbands. Like she was free. She was doing what made her happy and what she wanted to do. So in the confines of the story, I think that for me, and maybe that’s what I was thinking about. When I was talking to Reggie. He’s like, to me, Claire was the free character. I think what you’re saying makes a lot of sense. And I think what you’re saying is like, Irene could have been free in her future life that we’ve created for her.

Cree Myles 1:05:52
I think she’s closer to freedom, because even as Claire’s doing all of that shit, like, isn’t she Loki? Just feel it filling some type of fucking void? Why can’t you just sit down and be quiet? You know? So. So there’s just an assumption under there that she hasn’t worked through?

Traci Thomas 1:06:09
Oh, for sure. I mean, for sure.

Cree Myles 1:06:11
Because Irene is more content in her life, than Claire.

Traci Thomas 1:06:18
Until Claire comes back.

Cree Myles 1:06:19
Exactly. So that’s why I just think Irene is closer to freedom.

Traci Thomas 1:06:24
Sure. But I also think if we throw in the queer angle, then she

Cree Myles 1:06:30
Ugh, I forget every time!

Traci Thomas 1:06:32
I know, I know. Then she ends up being a lot closer to Claire’s level of freedom. Because she’s hiding this. And she’s confined by this. And she’s trying to take up space to get away from this thing, which we all know doesn’t work.

Cree Myles 1:06:46
Which is why she’s a socialite and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That’s- touche. This was fun.

Traci Thomas 1:06:52
This is fun. I know. We have to go. This was so fun. Cree, I just fucking adore you. This was awesome. Thank you for being here. People. If you’ve made it to the end, and you haven’t read the book, so mad at you.

Cree Myles 1:07:03
I know. Like, what are you? What are you doing? You should have just bought it and read it.

Traci Thomas 1:07:09
You would have been done. But I hope everyone enjoyed this. Please feel free to share who you think is the most. If you could be free- who’s the most free in the book?

Cree Myles 1:07:21
Oh, I’m excited to hear the responses to this question.

Traci Thomas 1:07:26
Me too. I’m gonna put it up when I put up the Instagram post of this episode. I’ll also put it there so you can go comment on the Instagram post. But thank you so much, Cory, for being here. And everybody else we will see you in the stacks.

Thank you all so much for listening. And thank you to Cree for being our guest. Our book club pick for February is I live a life like yours by Jan Grue. The book is all about Jan experience as a disabled person, his thoughts about stigma, accessibility and so much more. We will be discussing the book on February 23. And you can tune in next week to find out who our guest will be. If you love the show and want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join The Stacks Pack. Make sure you’re subscribed to The Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you’re listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from The Stacks, follow us on social media at thestackspod on Instagram at thestackspod_ on Twitter and check out our website thestackspodcast.com. This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas, with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

Megan Caballero
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