Ep. 184 The Desire Advocate Is In with Nichole Perkins

Written By Megan Caballero

We're joined today by cultural critic, poet, podcaster, and author Nichole Perkins. Her new book, Sometimes I Trip on How Happy We Could Be is a memoir in essays that covers the intimate details of Perkins' life. We talk on this episode about sex writing, setting boundaries, and intended versus actual audience.

The Stacks Book Club selection for October is Waiting to Exhale by Terry McMillan. We will discuss the book on October 27th with Nichole Perkins.

 
 

Everything we talk about on today’s episode can be found below in the show notes and on Bookshop.org and Amazon

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TRANSCRIPT
*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08

Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Traci Thomas and today we are joined by cultural critic, poet and author of Sometimes I Trip on How Happy We Could Be, Nichole Perkins. Her book is a collection of essays about sex, race, gender and pop culture that came out in August. Nicole is also the host of this is good for you a podcast about finding pleasure in life, and we talk today about writing about sex boundaries and romance novels. The Saks book club pick for October is Waiting to Exhale by Terry McMillan. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, October 27. With Nichole Perkins. All right, everybody, I'm really excited. I'm here today with Nichole Perkins. She is a poet. She is a cultural critic. She is a podcaster. And most recently, she is the author of Sometimes I Trip on How Happy We Could Be, the greatest titled book of the year, hands down. Nichole, welcome to The Stacks.

Nichole Perkins 1:50

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.

Traci Thomas 1:53

I'm so excited to be here, too. I like haven't stopped smiling. I'm just I have so many questions for you. I'm gonna get a little nosy. But we'll start off easy. Can you just sort of tell us a little bit about yourself where you come from? Whatever you feel is relevant.

Nichole Perkins 2:07

Sure. I am Nicole. I'm from Nashville, Tennessee. Gosh, I don't know what else to say. I'm a big prints fan, if no one could tell from the title of my memoir. And I love pop culture. And I'm a big romance novel fan as well. I mean, that's part of pop culture. But gosh, I don't know what else to say about right.

Traci Thomas 2:33

I think that's, that's a good start. That's a good start. We're gonna dive in. I got plans for you. But I just like to give people a chance. Loosen up. Tell us a little bit. You know, it's funny you say that? I did not connect the title with Prince. I thought it was Beyonce.

Nichole Perkins 2:47

No, the original song that Beyonce and Jay Z sampled is called if I was your girlfriend, which is by Prince, I know that. Yeah, from the album Sign of the Times.

Traci Thomas 2:59

Oh, wow. Oh my gosh, I just thought it was Beyonce this whole time. And I people kept being like, oh my god, it's so great. It's that song. And now I'm realizing that I'm maybe an idiot. And that's fine. That's like very on brand for me. But I just love that you're like, I love prints. If you couldn't tell, I was gonna ask you about Beyonce, but I won't. So one of the things that I just was so taken by with your book, I mean, the whole book is fantastic. And this question is kind of more specific, but it does kind of fit all of the essays, for the most part, is the way that you write about sex is just, I've never read anyone write about sex as well, as you do in your book. I just think it's like, so it's not like sensational, like, Oh, we're talking about sex, but it's also personal and intimate and also playful. And all of the things that sex is and can be, I feel like you kind of embody that in the different stories. And so I'm wondering how you decide how much to share and like how you got to be comfortable writing about sex, because just talking about it is making me like feel nervous.

Nichole Perkins 4:14

First of all, thank you for your very kind words. Um, you know, it just took a long time, a lot of practice a lot of just kind of jumping out there. So a lot of times when I am really scared of something, I just jump into it, I have to barge through it. You know how like in football games when they're holding up those big old paper banners if you don't have the team's locker room, and then the team comes charging through breaking through the banner. That's how I feel like that's what I do with a lot of my fears. Some of them do get the best of me, but other times I'm just like, Okay, I just got to do it, you know. And so, over the years, you know, during my teenage years and my 20s I would just say stuff kind of shock value, you know, just to see how people would react. And then I would challenge their reactions, whether they were good or bad. And I would just kind of, I don't know, it was, you know, I was testing their reactions, but also testing myself and how I could navigate these kinds of discussions. And I do try to feel my way around conversations because I never want anyone to feel so uncomfortable. If I've triggered something, you know, bad or whatever, about memory or something, I never want anyone to feel uncomfortable when I'm having these discussions. But that's why I try to approach them from a place of humor or lightheartedness. So people can see I'm not, you know, I'm not really asking anybody else to like, you know, show me a videotape of themselves in these particular moments or whatever. But I also just want people to recognize that, you know, if you are a sexual person, if you are a sexually active person, you are not alone, and the things that you have experienced, you know, and that sucks, doesn't always have to be this very, like, dreadful thing that's going to end up like ruining your life or, you know, sending you on this catastrophic journey or something, which I think a lot of us get that talk, you know, don't have sex, so you're gonna become a mother, or you're gonna get pregnant, you're gonna get a disease, and it's gonna be awful, and all this kind of stuff. And you know, that doesn't always happen. You know, sometimes sex is just a really nice way for people to communicate, attraction or desire. So I just want people to, even if they don't feel comfortable talking to me, a stranger or me, if I'm up their friends, or whatever I want them to be to get to a point where they feel comfortable talking about sex with their partners, because that's where it's most important, right? Like, you don't have to tweet at me or you don't have to, like write me, you know, an email about your sex life. But get to the point where you can talk to your partner or your partners about what's going on in your proverbial bedroom, so that you can get what you want, so that you can be satisfied. That's really my ultimate goal for everybody. It doesn't matter who you are, like, if I just see you for a second, you know, walking down the street, I hope that you are having a good sex life. And I hope that you are being satisfied in whatever way works for you, as long as it's not causing harm to anyone else, you know. So that's ultimately, what's important to me, I want people to have these moments where they feel good. And if that is through sex, then yes, let's figure out how we can make that happen for you. But it has been challenging. And you know, it's I was tagged in a review recently, it was, you know, it was a fine review. But the person was like, you know, she talks about sex. And it was a little TMI for me, which I found interesting, because it's like, it's a memoir, which means I'm, it's about my life.

Traci Thomas 7:53

It's TMI for everyone. Right? Right. So if you did it-

Nichole Perkins 7:59

And there'll be some other reviews where I felt, I got self conscious about the way people are reacting to me talking about sex, because a lot of people have been like, oh, it's really explicit, or it's, someone else was like, I didn't realize how much of a prude I was until I read this book, which is fine. I'm not trying to get anybody to change themselves into something that they're not. But it's interesting, because I actually toned down a lot. I toned down a lot. And I didn't, you know, I think I was aware that some people would be uncomfortable with what they were reading, I was definitely aware that my mother and my sister would be reading the memoir, and they know who I am. They know enough of who I am to know, to not be surprised, but they still maybe don't want all the details. And another thing that I would try to be careful about is not boasting about what I do, you know, I don't want I don't want anyone to read what I have written, they think that I have, I'm sitting here talking about how great I am or something like that, or they're like that I'm giving a manual on how to do this particular sex act or anything like that. But I tried to talk about the things that feel good to me and the things that have been done to me that I enjoy. And again, it's more about wanting women in particular, especially black women to feel comfortable expressing what they want and what they like and not just accepting what is being done to them.

Traci Thomas 9:38

Oh my gosh, okay, you said like 90 things I want to follow online. So let's see if I can I'm like trying to take mental notes. The first thing which is probably short is are your tweets and DMS just filled with like, TMI of so many strangers because I can only imagine like my DMs and I talk pretty much exclusively about books are filled with TMI about people's lives where I'm like, I am not the person for this. And since you're so publicly, like, let's talk about sex, let's be about sex, I can only imagine that your DMS are aggressive at times.

Nichole Perkins 10:12

You know, my DMs are not too bad. I did have my DMs open for a very long time. But maybe a year ago, I turned off public DMS, because I was I kind of knew people would start like sending me messages. And once the advanced copies and like advanced snippets started going out and stuff like that I started, I turned off my public DMS. But I do get emails, people find my email, they go to my website and email me. And I wrote an article, gosh, in 2013 2000, maybe 2014 2015, something like that, at least five to eight years ago. And the piece that ended up being the last chapter in the book about me, exploring BDSM, or being a dog with this younger white guy. And people find that essay, and they still email me about it. And it's mostly white men, of course, who are emailing me. And I can tell like they're saying thank you for writing it. And you know, like, you're really helping me. But I can also tell that they're feeling me out to see if I would like, take them on as my sub and stuff like that. So it has been interesting from the book, I'm only seeing mostly at this point, reviews, like if someone tags me in a review, and again, they're almost always positive, I haven't been tagged in a negative review, maybe like a lukewarm three out of five, which again, is fine, I'll accept that.

Traci Thomas 11:46

I don't have people tag authors in reviews, period. But especially like, if it's not a rave, which you know, I'm not, I mean it's fine.

Nichole Perkins 11:57

Most of the time, I don't read once I realize it's an actual review, I will click out. And then sometimes this is a little, it's a little too late. So those are the ones where I pick up where people are kind of scolding me, or admitting that they were uncomfortable with the sex. And one of my friends he asked me was I concerned that men would read the book and use what I said, against me or like, in a manipulative kind of way. So meaning, you know, where I talk about, I like when men tell me that I'm soft, he was concerned that then men would start saying that to me, even if they didn't mean it, but because they knew that that's what I liked. And they were just trying to like, earn points. And I was like, Well, I don't think men are gonna read my book, first of all, like, it's not, it's not really for them. I wasn't thinking about them when I was writing it. And secondly, I just, I can't see that happening. And I have been surprised by how many men have read the book and reached out to me and said, it was really good. And it gave them some things to think about. And I was seeing this one guy who recently moved, and I had given him an advanced copy of the book. And one night when we were, you know, enjoying each other, he talks about my soft skin. And he had never said anything like that before. And I immediately, it just took me out of the moment because I felt like in my gut that he had read the book. And he had gotten to that point, maybe and he was just like, Okay, this is what she likes, and whatever. And it didn't feel sincere. It didn't feel like of the moment it felt very calculated. And I was a little disappointed. So I guess that was a valid concern of my friend to have.

Traci Thomas 13:38

Yeah, oh my god, that I never really even thought about future partners having read it and what they would think one of the other things you mentioned earlier was about like people feeling less alone. And I'm curious as someone who writes about sex so publicly, do you feel alone not not in your personal life, but in your professional life as like one of the few people who's willing to go there who's not writing romance novels, right? Like, I think romance novelist, they talk about sex all the time, but you're talking about it in such a like, personal way about your personal experience? Is that ever isolating for you because other people don't go there?

Nichole Perkins 14:17

I feel I am stuck between boxes. And then it's also something that I talk about in the book and feeling like I don't fit neatly in any particular box. And I feel I do feel that way because I'm not a sex experts. You know, and I'm not. I can't tell you how to do this position or how to like, whatever, but I also talking about desire, and sex is very important to me. And I was recently on a friend's Instagram Live like she has a series as a scam. She has a series called ain't gonna hold you. And, you know, she asked me what's the, you know, what would I label myself? And I said, I think I would call myself a desire advocate.

Traci Thomas 15:00

Okay, right are using those words.

Nichole Perkins 15:04

And I, I like that. So I have been thinking about that more and more like my desire advocacy and again, just wanting people to, you know, speak up for themselves. That's it like, you don't have to follow me. You don't have to figure out like, you know, I'm not asking you to follow me, but just figure it out for yourself. So, but yes, it can be a little isolating because I can't. I can't always talk about all the sexual stuff I think that people want to talk about. Although I would love to do a sex advice column, I would love to, you know, some kind of love relationships, something I would love that.

Traci Thomas 15:42

Yeah. And you can call it the desire advocate, or something like the advocates, or something? I don't know. Yeah. Yes, I love I love desire advocate, because I love that it feels really empowering like that you're empowering other people to tap into that part of themselves, which is I think empowering is one of the words I think I would use to describe the book and what I what I felt about you after reading the book, because you know, like, you read a memoir, and you sort of decide who someone is. And I was like, oh, like, empower certainly came to mind. So I really like your choice of self labeling as a desire advocate, because it totally feels like who I think you are not knowing you at all, but just having read the book, you know. But so part of the book that I really appreciated and is is you talk about boundaries a lot in different ways. You're not like, these are my boundaries, but you sort of there's a few, there's a few essays where you do kind of lay it out very clearly. But sort of throughout the book, we're learning about what you're willing to do, and not just sexually, but like with your family where you draw the line. And I'm curious, when it comes to actually writing these stories, how do you form your boundaries, because you write very personally about about your, about your siblings, about your mother, about the way you know, there's this great essay about fast girls and these stereotypes? I guess the bigger question is, you get very personal but you also, I don't, I never felt worried about you. Because sometimes I read a memoir, and I'm like, okay, this person is not ready to write all of this. Like they needed some therapy or like, this feels TMI in a not good way. But I'm wondering sort of how you set up, how you prepare yourself how you know, when it's okay to write about something, and when it's not for you.

Nichole Perkins 17:26

I talk about my family. And I tried to be as respectful as I could of their stories. And so I tried to make sure that I was telling their stories, only where it intersected with mine. And, you know, if I needed a little bit of context, then I would provide that, but again, without going too far into something that they have not given me permission to talk about, because I did not really ask my family. Can I talk about this? You know, my mom knew that I was writing the book. And she asked me very carefully, she asked me, how much of your childhood are you going to talk about, because she knew that I would be talking about my father and his abuse of her and all that kind of stuff. And I just had to assure her that, you know, I'm not going to get too deep. And that was a choice. That was definitely a choice. You know, I alluded to a couple of old relationships that were emotionally abusive, I don't know if I necessarily labeled them as that in the book. But I mentioned some relationships, but I did not talk about them. And I thought about trying to talk about them, I started to write about them. And it was very difficult for me, I did not want to go back to that place. You know, in the book, I am able to admit when I've done some wrong things and made bad choices and have been a bad person. But I still did not want to go back into this place where I was being a victim or feeling victimized. I'm, I was not ready for that yet. So I just didn't talk about it. I just didn't. I didn't want to I didn't feel good about it. i i I'm also very concerned about trauma porn. Yeah. And being a black woman, right? And just only writing pain, right? Which is not to say that I should not do it or that anyone else cannot do it. But I just did not want to write a book that was like that, if it was somebody not black reading it, then they would be like, See, I knew it was terrible being a black woman, right? You know, like I did, I am very conscious of that. And so I just refuse to do that. Like I could talk about certain pains. And I could talk about my upbringing and things that were traumatic, for sure. But I just did not want that to be the only thing in the book. And so I felt like if I had written about those emotionally abusive relationships, the book would have been too sad or just like tipped over into into that. But you know, again, I just didn't want to do it. And so I just thought really hard about what I felt good about writing and when I felt good about admitting, and I, it was important to me to admit, I have done some terrible things. Because I think a lot of times in memoirs and autobiographies, we just see all the good and bad things done to the person to the subject and not so much what they have participated in willingly or not. So I wanted to give myself permission to say, you know, sometimes I have not been a good person, but I am still here, and I am doing what I can to, you know, I don't want to say clean out the mistakes of my life, but I've grown from them. And I've learned from them. But it was very hard to figure out, like what I could do. And it's interesting, because I had just had this discussion with someone else where I was talking about when I was younger, I had all these boundaries, I would try to initiate boundaries, and people would tell me, well, that's not nice, you should be a nice girl and go over there. Or, you know, they told me I wasn't being warm, and I wasn't being a people person, or, you know, when I got a little older and was in jobs, I was not a team player. And it was just because I don't feel like everybody deserves my time and my space. And so I would try to, you know, be cordial and be polite, because we're all still human, we all still deserve, you know, basic courtesy. But I just did not feel like I had to go out with all of my co workers after work, you know, all the time, your co workers are not always your friends or whatever, or even your classmates, especially if you are one of very few. In a particular situation, if you're the only one of very few black women, when a very few black people, one a very few women period or whatever. People think that you have to connect with everybody, just because you have this whatever thing in common and sometimes you just don't like each other and being forced to be besties is not it's not good for anybody. So I would try to establish these boundaries when I was younger, and was made to feel like I was the worst person in the world. And now, everyone is like boundaries, don't violate my boundaries. This is my self care and all this kind of stuff, which is great. I love it. Because I feel like I have been trying to do that all my life. So it's just it has been very important to me, I'm an introverted person, and I need my space.

Traci Thomas 22:27

I love a boundary. I love a ground rule. I love I mean, but it's true. I think that probably I can relate to that, like trying to set boundaries, not even knowing the word boundary as a thing, right? Like, my younger days definitely have been called all sorts of really kind euphemisms for a bitch. But whatever. That was just me trying to set my boundaries. And sorry, not sorry, I'm a better off person, because I didn't go out to happy hour with you losers. Exactly. One of the things you mentioned was, as you're writing and kind of thinking about, well, let me ask you this first, who did you write the book for?

Nichole Perkins 23:10

Well, when I was writing the book, my target audience was black women, and trying to showcase the diversity of black womanhood and just trying to show that, you know, you may not have all the answers, or you may not have reached all the goals that you wanted, but you still can and it's still possible. And you know, you're still here, and it doesn't mean the end for you. So that that was my main audience for black women. But I especially also want women in general, women and firms to read the book and see that it's okay to speak up for yourself and to, to know that you can be a late bloomer in many different ways. And it's okay, like you, you don't have to have everything done by 25 or 30, or even 35, you know, and that life is still ongoing. And that Yeah, so I, I wrote it for black women in particular.

Traci Thomas 24:09

Yeah. So what I heard you say earlier was sort of thinking about other folks reading the book, people who aren't black and thinking about how they might interpret something and like taking something out because you didn't want it to be trauma porn or talking about like, men reading the book. And so I'm wondering, I talked to so many authors, and a lot of times, they'll tell me, like, I wrote the book for this group. And that's all I cared about. And I didn't think about anybody else, or I wrote the book for me and that and whatever. But it's interesting to kind of hear you talk about having a target audience or some group that you're thinking of, but also being aware that other people might be picking up the book and how they're going to feel about it. So I'd love for you kind of to talk more about how you balanced making sure that it was authentic for black women and femmes, but also knowing that there might be an outside gaze.

Nichole Perkins 24:55

So I tried to be as honest in my language and And you know the syntax that I used as possible. And then when I did get to the point of editing and being proof read and stuff like that. And the proofreaders would be like, you know, I don't understand this phrase, I looked it up, it doesn't exist, or, you know, I couldn't find it. And I would just be like, oh, yeah, that's AV E, that's, you know, that's a vernacular, or that's just me doing a twist of language or something in the tradition of black vernacular. So we're gonna leave that because the people that I am writing it for, they will know and understand what this is. But then there were moments where I was just like, somebody may not understand this. And I might like, pop in, I have very few footnotes, but I will pop in maybe like a quick footnote to explain it, give it a bit more context or something like that. And I knew other people beyond black women will be reading the book because of what I've been doing in my professional life, you know, prior to writing this book. So there are a lot of people who listen to my old podcast first aid kit. And that was a wide range of demographics. And so I was like, if some of these people were to pick up this book, what would they see? What would they hear. And so I just wanted to, I didn't want to acknowledge that other people will be reading it, but know that it was not, they were not my primary target. So but there were some moments where I was physically afraid to sit at my desk, and write because I was I would get locked up into what people would think. And not just black women, but just period just like what the readers would think. And honestly, that's when I would like, pick up a glass of wine to kind of calm my nerves and like push through. Because I, my biggest fear and writing the book was that someone would take something out of context and misconstrue what I was trying to say, or purposely misinterpret what I was trying to say, into something that I did not mean I did not say I had not even thought of or anything like that. It definitely was a challenge in balancing trying to figure out what do I say this? Do I just let it ride? Or do I try to you know, put those parenthetical phrases and so people could fully understand what I was saying. And I, for the most part, I think I just, again, just kind of barreled through. And I was like, if they get it, they get it. And if they don't, they can ask.

Traci Thomas 27:32

You can go to urbandictionary.com.

Nichole Perkins 27:36

Exactly.

Traci Thomas 27:37

I love one of my favorite essays was the one about sort of, you're coming into writing like on like the internet chat room kind of space, it's I guess it's not called a chat room. I don't know, whatever it was called. And I loved it. Because one of my personal obsessions as a black person on the internet is seeing all the ways that black people that I like and admire know each other. So it was really fun. Because I know that you were at BuzzFeed for a little bit. And like, you know, Tracy Clayton, who like I always followed and loved and like it just was, it's just such a cool thing to see that. And I'm wondering how that way of starting out as like a culture writer in that kind of a space like a, I guess a chat room is the best way to explain it.

Nichole Perkins 28:26

Right? Like, yeah, it was a message board message board.

Traci Thomas 28:29

There we go. I'm like, there's another word for this. But I'm wondering how that sort of influenced the writer that you became, and like being in connection with all those other like, I think you said was it Jesus was in there with you? Yeah, Jesus pass guests on the show. Shout out to do this tomorrow. But I just I'm so curious about kind of fine tuning your skills on a message board versus like, an MFA program or like, versus like, I was an intern at the New York Times. And that's how I learned to write like, from New York Times, right? Like it just it's just such a cool way. So I'm just curious.

Nichole Perkins 29:07

Yeah, you know, I, um, I tried to go to grad school for writing to get my MFA and it just didn't work out because you know, for a lot of reasons, but the biggest one was that they were more concerned the program that I was first and was more concerned with teaching me how to be a professor of writing as opposed to actually writing as a career. And I did not want to be a teacher I did not want to do that I want to actually write but when I joined that message board, which is okay player, which is the fan site for the routes, which now are Jimmy Fallon's house and I Eban Right, yeah, I was just like writing to be silly and to connect with other people. I joined the board because it was a way to communicate with this guy that I was seeing at the time. And then it just kind of took off for me in a different way. Because I was just, again, I'm an introverted person. So I don't know, I've always known I wanted to be a writer I've always written. So being able to communicate with people without having to interact with them physically, was great. And I could be careful. And what I said in the message board, they had the ability to edit. So if you made a mistake, you had maybe I think, a minute or five minutes from the time you posted to edit what you said. So I could go back and change stuff if I if I wanted to, or even just flat out, delete, whatever. But it was really a fun way to learn how to write on the internet, because I learned how to, I learned what people will take the time to read what people have the attention span for, you know, do they want something salacious? Or do they want something that's educational? How can I mix the two, you know, that kind of thing. I talked about this in that chapter. But there was a weekly post called confession Wednesdays, and you know, you could put anything from I burned my toast, and I still ate it, too. You know, I'm having an affair with my next door neighbor to I think my kids are ugly, like, you know, like, it could be anything from whatever. And so I learned from there, what people would respond to, would they respond more to the thing that we all do, I throw out this dish because I didn't want to clean it, or they would respond more to the salacious stuff. So I just kind of learned the, you know how to balance talking on the internet. And most importantly, even beyond that, I learned how to navigate trolls, right, I learned that the people who just kind of pick it, you, they don't really have anything against what you're saying, they just want this attention. They just want to divert attention to themselves, or they're just miserable people who this is the only way that they can have power in our lives. Right. And so that's all been very important to me, as my career has taken off as I've gotten to be a little bit more public facing with the things that I do and learning how to what to ignore what to respond to that kind of thing. So yeah, it's a lot of people who came up through okay, playa, like you said, Jesus, Tracy Clayton down will was a musician and rap. You know, he's a musician, a rapper. And he does a lot of theme music for people in podcasts and comedians and stuff like that. Yeah, it's a lot of people that came up through okay, player that maybe you wouldn't know, to, you wouldn't know. But it was very instrumental in learning how to deal with what is now like, Twitter, and Instagram and Twitch and all that kind of stuff.

Traci Thomas 32:50

And it's like a way to have direct kind of feedback from an audience that you don't get if you publish a piece here or there necessarily, unless it goes like viral and everyone's talking shit to you or whatever.

Nichole Perkins 33:04

Right? Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Traci Thomas 33:06

That's so cool. Okay, we're gonna totally switch gears. We're gonna start talking a little bit about books. But to transition into that we do something here called Ask the stacks where someone has written in asking for book recommendations. I have not prepped you for this at all. So I'm going to read what they said. And then I'll give some suggestions. And then you can give some suggestions. So I'll give you a little time to think. Okay, so this one comes from Deanna and Deanna says at the beginning of the pandemic, a good friend and I started an ongoing buddy read, we don't live close. So this was a way for us to stay connected during a hard time. But we've continued reading together even as the country has started opening up, nauseous, smiley face, you know, the one that's like, we only read nonfiction and memoir. And we most enjoy reading about things we didn't learn in school, including things like non white perspectives, untold stories, how fucked up the US is, etc, etc. Here's what we've read and loved so far. The color of law by Richard Rothstein, braiding sweetgrass, by Robin wall Kimmerer the undocumented Americans by Carla coordinate Hovi Sensio and white feminism by Co Op back on our list already our blood in the water how the word is pass on The Warmth of Other Suns, others you'd recommend? Okay, let me just start by saying this. Deanna, how dare you preemptively tell me that you have blood in the water how the word had passed and warm for other signs because you know, those were the three that I was going to suggest to you because those are my favorite. But you preempted me and so I have decided to go in a totally different direction. I'm going all books about feminism and women. So the first one is hood feminism by Oh, let me say this Nicole, you only have to do one. You don't have to do I'm gonna do three give you some time to think. Okay, okay. Okay, so here's what I've got for you. Hood feminism by Mickey Kendall. It's all about black Women centered feminism and the ways that feminism has kind of been co opted to be exclusively about white women. And this book focuses on on the ways that black women sort of are engaged in that work, and also the ways that the work is sort of rigged against them. My second one, also about modern feminism is good and mad by Rebecca Traister. It's a really great book, she talks about women and rage, and the ways that that has sort of propelled feminism. And she also talks about the intersections and the ways that white women have, you know, sabotage their own rights in favor of white, patriarchy and all of that. Also, we have done an episode on good and bad. So if you read it, then you'll have a bonus thing to listen to you. And then the last one is about slavery and white women, and it's called they were her property. And it's all about the white women who own slaves, who have sort of been erased from the historical narrative, we always think that it's about white men who owned slaves, and they were, you know, doing horrible things to the slaves, but also being horrible to their wives. And the wives were, you know, had no rights and all of this, and this is about the white women who owned other humans and about the ways that they were just as cutthroat and horrible as other slave owners. So those are my three sort of themed suggestions for you, Nicole, what do you have?

Nichole Perkins 36:20

Okay, so I would like to suggest this book, it is called franchise, the golden arches in black America, by Marcia Chatlin. And that Cha Tae lain. And it is about how fast food ended up permeating black neighborhoods, and how it became like a way for certain black people to generate wealth in black neighborhoods. So it gets really deep, and it's also a Pulitzer Prize winning book. So that's what I would recommend. It's really interesting. And it's also just something I would not I mean, you know, it you know, you like, obviously, you know, when you go into certain neighborhoods, and you see, there's just nothing but fast food and very few grocery stores, and you're kind of like, how did this happen? This book will help explain how that happened.

Traci Thomas 37:19

I just bought that, but I haven't read it yet. So you're making me want to read it. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back. Okay, we're back. Nicole, we're going to talk about all your favorite books and things. So first, we always start here two books you love and one book you hate.

Nichole Perkins 37:36

Oh, boy. Okay, so two books. I love our Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison, and Salvage the Bones by Jesmyn Ward. I just those books just move me so much. And there's such incredible the, the craft of writing is is just so well illustrated in these in these books. And also they're just, you know, very emotionally evocative. So I love them. And the book that I hate is Leaves of Grass by Walt Whitman. I just got so tired of people trying to force that on me and, and you know, all this kind of stuff like, Oh, this is the best way to get in touch with nature read this book and I I don't believe it. I just, it's not for me.

Traci Thomas 38:29

I love this. What what are you reading right now?

Nichole Perkins 38:32

Oh, I'm reading right now. Velvet was the night by Silvio Marina Garcia. And Seven days in June by Tia Williams.

Traci Thomas 38:43

Are you liking seven days in June?

Nichole Perkins 38:45

I am and I cannot like I saw, you know, a good amount of buzz. But I think it deserves more.

Traci Thomas 38:51

So good. I Unlike you, I really don't read a ton of romance. Not Not for any, like, holier than thou reason I just really don't love fiction that much just in general. Like I'm just more nonfiction person. But I picked up seven days in June. And I frickin loved it. I think it's one of the best things I've read this year. I think it's so good.

Nichole Perkins 39:14

Yes. When I'm reading so far, it's really good. And I think part of the problem is that it doesn't look like a romance. Yeah, no, it is you're just a cover. Yeah, it's absolutely gorgeous. But it's just not it does not have the traditional or the expected look of what like the cover of what a romance would look like or what we would signal as a romance, but it's very good. And I wish that like I said, I wish I had more even more buzz.

Traci Thomas 39:42

Me too. Okay, what are books that you're looking forward to reading? And they don't have to be new books. It could just be books that have been on your list forever. It could be anything.

Nichole Perkins 39:53

Oh, well, I have two new books that I'm really interested in reading Harlem shuffle by Colson Whitehead. Edie and Palmaris by Gail Jones. Yeah, that's like her first book in like 20 years or something like that. So I'm really interested in seeing what she has done.

Traci Thomas 40:13

Yeah, I want to read that to you. I saw that the article that Imani Perry wrote in the New York Times about it, and it's great. How do you decide what book you're going to pick up next?

Nichole Perkins 40:25

I'm mostly from friends. And, you know, reviews, if I see someone has shared a review on social media, then I'll check it out. And you know, see what's next or to be honest, also, when publicists reach out to me and they're like, I have this book that I think you might be interested in, and then I'll, I'll check that out. I also, you know, have a Net Galley account. So I go through some of their features and see what what they have or even like bookshop and you know, certain online stores, I'll look to see what they have, you know, new or coming out or something like that. So a combination of things.

Traci Thomas 41:06

Do you feel like, do you read mostly new stuff? Or? Or do you also get to spend time with backless titles as well?

Nichole Perkins 41:15

I love going back through a writer's catalog. So I love backless stuff. I don't necessarily have to have a new book I enjoy going back and especially picking up something that maybe I missed when I was growing up or I missed during like the big hype because I my to be read list was just too, too much already. So yeah, that's fine with me. I love it.

Traci Thomas 41:40

What's a book that you like to recommend to people?

Nichole Perkins 41:44

Oh, okay. This collection of short stories called before you suffocate your full self by Daniel Evans. Yeah. And this book that I can't remember when it came out, maybe this 80s But I think it takes place in like the 70s. I can't remember but it's called wife by the late Bharati Mukherjee, if I'm saying her name correctly. And it's a very short novella, really. But it is about this woman who she gets married and comes to America, and she is just kind of like, trying to assert some power in her life. I love it. Again, it's just a very short read. But it's fantastic.

Traci Thomas 42:29

You mentioned earlier that you really like to read romance novels. What is it about romance novels that you love?

Nichole Perkins 42:35

Oh, my gosh, they're really our escape, escapes for me. I love seeing how the characters communicate their feelings to each other. I love the idea that someone is careful with with you know, someone else, a tender and that someone is also concerned about their sexual pleasure once they start to get it becoming intimate. I just love love. I love sweetness. I love how writers take the subject that is as old as time and can make it fresh, you know, over and over and over again. That's just incredible talent to me. I think you know, we've, we've been talking about love from the moment that we could talk and so romance novelists are able to take this very ancient idea and make it new each time and that's amazing.

Traci Thomas 43:35

What are your some of your favorite romance novels?

Nichole Perkins 43:38

Okay, so one that I read last year, and I didn't moderate an event for it is by a fairly new author name and Denise Williams and it's called How to fail at flirting, which was really good as contemporary novel, anything by Alyssa Cole and Rebecca Weatherspoon, Rebecca Weatherspoon. She does a lot of erotic thrillers, which I love. And her work is a bit more erotic in nature, but I really love her work as well. And then there is Tessa Bailey, and she does a lot with like dirty talk. Her characters are really good at dirty talk. And then I really like paranormal romance. So two of my favorite authors, there is a woman named Janine frost, and this other woman named Richelle Mead. So those are some of my favorite authors. It's hard for me to pin down like book titles, but those of those are the authors.

Traci Thomas 44:41

Would you ever write a romance novel?

Nichole Perkins 44:43

Absolutely. I hope to write on soon. I don't know this is gonna be my next next project, but it's definitely on my agenda.

Traci Thomas 44:53

Okay, great. I can't wait to read it. I will definitely read yours. I will read fiction for you. Do you write? How do you organize your books? Or do you organize your books?

Nichole Perkins 45:04

Yeah, I organize my books by genre and then alphabetically within the genre. So I have poetry first, I always put poetry first, because poetry is my first love. And I, I still consider myself a poet, I tend to do nonfiction. Next, because I don't read as much nonfiction as I do fiction, and then fiction. And then at the end of those, I put my arcs and duplicates so that I know what I can give away safely. Because I you know, I am a little bit of a book quarters, I don't have to give away books. But if I create this one section where I know okay, this is the safe stuff that you can give away. That's good. So I do that.

Traci Thomas 45:48

Yeah, that's so smart. I love that you said that sort of embarrassed like Emma Carter, and I'm sitting here like, this is the only space maybe in the world to freely admit that you're about a quarter This is a very safe space. I am a Book Hoarder advocate, so please feel free to indulge Are there any genres that you don't read that you avoid that you're just not that into?

Nichole Perkins 46:13

Yeah, like epic fantasy, espionage spy stuff. War history. Self Help.

Traci Thomas 46:24

Yeah. Right. Yeah. And if you were in your most ideal reading situation, where would you be? What would you have buy you a beverage a snack? What's the weather like, like, set us up for Nichole's dreamy reading moment.

Nichole Perkins 46:39

My dream reading moment would be like, in a room with with three walls are all bookshelves and filled completely right. And the fourth wall would be just glass, you know, just windows and French doors to open out onto a patio and the patio leaves to this incredible vista of lush rolling green hills and a lake and beautiful flowers and lovely breeze. And I am in like a little, you know, a big comfy chair some kind of like very comfy chaise lounge thing. And I have a good cozy blanket wrapped around me. And there's lovely music I tend to listen to either slow music or kind of, I don't know, I'm just kind of something slow and quiet while I'm reading. And for drinks, you know, I'm fine with like, just iced water or maybe a hot cup of tea hot cup of green tea and snacks. I like crunchy snacks when I'm reading and but I usually do cereal because I don't um, but I don't like milk. I don't drink milk.

Traci Thomas 48:01

Oh my god. I am a milk advocate. I work for the milk lobby. I love milk.

Nichole Perkins 48:08

No, it makes me sick. So I like like Captain Crunch, but I just eat it like popcorn just with my fingers. So I'm just doing something like that. Or like Cheerios, or whatever. Something like that something that I can eat with my fingers and turn the page.

Traci Thomas 48:26

Yeah, you really set the scene beautifully. I want to be in your reading fantasy. I was imagining Oprah's lush garden but she just did the tour of her garden that's actually like a national park. But it's just like Oprah's garden. No big deal. I'm Oh, my garden is the most beautiful place on earth. Do you have a favorite bookstore?

Nichole Perkins 48:46

Honestly, I don't. But I do love an indie bookstore. And I do love going to like used bookstores but I don't really necessarily have a favorite one that I go to all the time. I do try to support local Indies and black bookstores. I used to work at a black bookstore in in DC areas. It's no longer around. But I do try to you know, send some money their way. I did some events with loyalty bookstore in DC and reparations bookstore in Los Angeles. And they were phenomenal. I love them so much. So they were really good to me. And locally. I live in Brooklyn. I usually go to books or magic or green light both in these stores. So yeah.

Traci Thomas 49:33

And can you remember the last book you purchased?

Nichole Perkins 49:37

Yes. I actually just purchased another copy of quicksand and passing by Nella Larsen. Because the movie passing you know, they started releasing the trailers and so that's about to come out. And I wanted to refresh my memory because I haven't read it in over a decade I think. Yeah, so I that was the book that I last bought.

Traci Thomas 49:56

I've never read passing so I feel like I have to do it. For the movie.

Nichole Perkins 50:01

Yeah, I mean, I think it would help because I don't know how the movie is going to go if you don't have-

Traci Thomas 50:10

It's a super short book. It's like 100 pages, right? Yeah, just very short. I have a copy. I just need to crack it open and do it. Just do it. Okay, this is sort of our Rapid Round. So last book that made you laugh.

Nichole Perkins 50:24

The last book that made me laugh was the dating playbook by Farah Rashaan. It's another romance contemporary, very funny. Very good.

Traci Thomas 50:32

What was the last book that made you angry?

Nichole Perkins 50:34

The last book that made me angry, it isn't out yet. But it is called admissions by Kinder James. I'm actually I'm reading it and I'm going to blurb so I don't know if that's a conflict of interest. But it made me angry because it's about it's about the author's experience in prep school, and, you know, private, boarding school, boarding school. And it made me angry at the things that people put themselves to, in order to put themselves through in order to get ahead and in order to like, eliminate certain obstacles in life. You know, especially when you are one black person and the sea of upper class white people and the things that they tell you so yeah, admissions by Kinder James, which is coming out next year, January.

Traci Thomas 51:30

I saw the cover. Yeah, perfect. It's so yes, yeah. Gosh. Okay, what's a book The last book, you felt like? You've learned a lot?

Nichole Perkins 51:38

Oh. Can I cheat and say the franchise book?

Traci Thomas 51:45

That's just co signing your own recommendation?

Nichole Perkins 51:49

Yeah, because it was just really interesting, because that was not something that I, I thought that I would be interested in. And it was very eye opening. Yeah, the franchise book.

Traci Thomas 52:00

I'm just going to ask you two more, I think so. One is, are there any books you feel embarrassed about never having read?

Nichole Perkins 52:09

Oh, um, some classical or, you know, classical literature, like, Pride and Prejudice. And I feel like there's another label where whenever I read Jane Eyre, I actually liked Jane Eyre, but like the Pride and Prejudice stuff, and Little Women and these, you know, yeah, those kinds of books. I wouldn't necessarily say I'm embarrassed, but I definitely just like, I don't want to have to talk about this book. You know, like, I don't want to have to like admit that I know nothing about this. So yeah, so those those books I read, I read Wuthering Heights and Jane Eyre. I think maybe I like those because they're Gothic and a little darker. But those others you know, they don't know.

Traci Thomas 53:02

I like I said, I was gonna ask you two more, but now I'm gonna ask you two more. Okay. This one is if you were teaching high school, what is a book you would assign to your students?

Nichole Perkins 53:11

Oh, if I was okay. High School, it would be For Colored Girls by anisakis shine gang. And Their Eyes Were Watching God was or Neale Hurston, some poetry by Sonia Sanchez, and poetry by Lucille Clifton. And there is another poetry book, I would teach Jelly Roll by Kevin young, which is very jazz and blues influenced. And I love it. I reread it all the time. But those are some of the things that I would add anything by Jacqueline Woodson who she does some. Why a stuff?

Traci Thomas 54:00

Yeah, that's yeah, I want to take your class. I'm gonna go back to high school and take whatever. Good books from Professor Perkins. Teacher apart Miss Perkins? I don't know. Okay, last one. Last one. I stole this from the New York Times. If you could require the current president of the United States to read one book, what would it be?

Nichole Perkins 54:22

Wow. Um, I would say, Okay, this is this is because they're just really influenced me in writing in writing my memoir, but anything by Samantha Irby, but her first book MIDI, I would recommend that because it's funny, but also covers, you know, some really interesting territory in a very funny way. And maybe, I don't know maybe you just need some humor in his life.

Traci Thomas 54:53

I love that answer. So much love therapy. Okay, everybody, here's the deal. Y'all, Nichole will be back October 27. We're going to be discussing Waiting to Exhale by Terry McMillan for The Stacks book club. You should definitely read the book because there will be spoilers if you have time watch the movie because we're probably going to talk about that too. And in the meantime, also pick up your copy of Sometimes I Trip on How Happy We Could Be by Nichole Perkins inspired by Prince, not Beyonce. Don't be dumb and think it's Beyonce. Because Hello, it's obviously Prince. Nichole, thank you so much for being here today.

Nichole Perkins 55:32

Thank you. This was so fun. I was like, Oh no, I'm drawing a blank on everything. But this is so good to like, go back through and think about all the books that I've read. So thank you.

Traci Thomas 55:41

Yay. And everyone else we will see you in the stacks.

Thank you all for listening. And thank you so much to Nichole for being my guest also a huge thank you to Cameron Nassa for making this interview possible. Tune back in on October 27. To hear Nicole discuss our book club pick Waiting to Exhale by Terry McMillan. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/thestacks to join The Stacks Pack. Make sure you're subscribed to The Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave a rating and a review. For more from The Stacks follow us on social media at thestackspod on Instagram, Threads and TikTok and at thestackspod_ on Twitter and you can check out my website at thestackspodcast.com. This episode of The Stacks was edited by Christian Dueñas. Our graphic designer is Robin McCreight and our theme music is from Tagirijus. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Traci Thomas.

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