Unabridged: The Best of Mariah Carey – Transcript

January was Mariah Month at The Stacks! This Unabridged episode is dedicated to the pop icon and author of Book Club pick The Meaning of Mariah Carey. To celebrate, we brought back some dear friends of the podcast to share their favorite Mariah moments and songs. Plus, Traci shares her own faves.

*This episode is exclusive to members of The Stacks Pack on patreon. To join this community, get inside access to the show, and listen now, click the link below.


*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:11
All right, everybody. You know, we did The Meaning of Mariah Carey for book club this month and to add some excitement and fire to your lives, courtesy of Stacks Pack member Sydney. I’m at talking to some of my favorite people about their favorite Mariah Carey songs and moments. I’m asking everyone basically the same two questions. And to kick us off, Chelsea Devantez, who was our guest for the book club episode, is back to share her Mariah love, so the first question. Oh, hi, welcome back.

Chelsea Devantez 0:37
Hi, I’m so happy to be back.

Traci Thomas 0:40
We’re recording this right after we recorded the episode for those of you who want to know about podcasting magic. That’s why I didn’t say hi. I’m rude. Chelsea. I’m asking everyone the same two questions. The first one is when someone says Mariah Carey what comes to mind for you?

Chelsea Devantez 0:55
Definitely Rainbow and I referenced on the episode but just that huge cutout of her in the mall. That’s like true variety. Also Fantasy, riding the rollercoaster. Yeah, that really comes to mind. So those are my big Mariahs, and then her in the hot tub and MTV Cribs.

Traci Thomas 1:16
I need to rewatch that so I don’t know. I don’t remember any of like, I’ve talked about some episode. I don’t remember any of the like bad Mariah Carey like Mariah Carey is going crazy moments. I know that she had a little bit of that narrative, but it did not stick for me for whatever reason.

Chelsea Devantez 1:30
You rejected it. I like that. The bad moments is when I was like, I’m all in. Like, you’re getting into this like hot tub bathtub with high heels on like, I’m all in.

Traci Thomas 1:42
I love it. Okay, what is your favorite Mariah Carey song?

Chelsea Devantez 1:46
Definitely an impossible choice. I will just say the song that I’ve been listening to the most the most recently is Obsessed. And it’s just kind of maybe a bop that I didn’t give it its moment when it was its moment. And so now I have it on a playlist and I probably listen to it once a day.

Traci Thomas 2:21
There’s a fantastic Spotify just like This is Mariah playlist, and it’s all of her hits and it is perfect. I’ve been listening to it the entire month everyday because of reading the book and then just like wanting to be immersed in Mariah but it has every Mariah song you could ever want it’s just obsessed is in there and I didn’t really get into obsess when it came out. But now I like it st was Shake It Off. I wasn’t like An Emancipation of Mimi-

Chelsea Devantez 2:47
I wasn’t either. I really did miss the ballads in that moment. And I think now I’ve gone back and really enjoyed it.

Traci Thomas 2:53
Okay, I’m going to tell you mine because I realize I actually haven’t recorded mine so my favorite Mariah Carey song is Honey.

Honey is for me, at the end, when she does her little run and Puff Daddy’s under her being like, like doing his little giggling I just love it.

It’s such a perfect song. It is the perfect bop. She’s got all the range. She still has her full capacities of her voice. It’s like r&b. It’s so smooth. I just like the way it starts so slowly. I just I can’t there’s not a I think it’s one of the most perfect pop songs ever. Like I just think it’s a perfect song. I love it.

Chelsea Devantez 3:55
What a great choice. Yes.

Traci Thomas 3:56
Yep, that’s mine. Okay, do you have any Mariah Carey moments that you love?

Chelsea Devantez 3:59
Yes, my favorite. This is Mariah Carey book tangent, which is that she was sued for the song Hero by a man who said he wrote Hero. It was a bodyguard, not her bodyguard, a different bodyguard, who was not present for 9/11 who wrote the song who says he wrote the song hero on a poem in his pocket that somehow Mariah got ahold of because he was the bodyguard to person who was like in a recording session with her. I just love picturing this bodyguard writing a poem about himself titled Hero. So about himself he is telling the world and then a hero comes along and he was like I am the hero. I wrote the poem about me Oh, I’m a hero and then sued her and lost and i just-

Traci Thomas 4:48
She said two people sued her for that song too. In the book.

Chelsea Devantez 4:52
The bodyguard was my favorite. A poem he wrote about himself!

Traci Thomas 4:56
That’s incredible. That’s incredible. Yeah, and that that song was like originally for some movie and now has become the like 9/11 anthem or like one of them is like that one and then Julio or what was not Julio Iglesias his son, Enrique Iglesias this Hero song. Remember those were like the two. That was just like content. I’m like the Enrique one is really it’s a love song about like having sex with someone. Like, getting it on. And it’s a weird like 9/11 choice, but I remember on the radio, they used to play the songs and then have like intersplice, like, George Bush like talking? Do they do that where you were from?

Chelsea Devantez 5:31

Traci Thomas 5:32
Oh, man, I have to find one. You have to find these, like 9/11 remixes where it would be like, during the musical interlude would be George Bush, like at 9/11 being like, We will not let this happen or like, and then like audio of like, two planes have flown into the towers. And then we’d be like, yeah, it was and they played on the radio. I’ll send you a link – so creepy.

Chelsea Devantez 5:50
That’s like, old war propaganda shit.

Traci Thomas 5:53
Yeah, yeah. So fucking weird. Okay, I know, we’ve just talked for hours about Mariah Carey. Is there any last Mariah Carey take you would like to share with the world?

Chelsea Devantez 6:01
Let me consult my notes. Um, you know, I will say a literary thing in this book, because it is The Stacks, that I really, really love and actually take to heart is I loved how many times Mariah Carey described her outfit, because I think it’s something that has not been maybe in the canon of good writing because we ignore female readers and their wants. But I think for me, like every time she described the outfit, it was better scene-building than like, the room had white carpets and blah blah chair like anytime she was like, I had on a full brown, like, when she’s meeting Derek Jeter. She’s like, I’m going for brown autumn. I have a little brown mini skirt. I put on tights. You know, I have cute little brown boots and I have a Crim sweaters that a vest and you’re like, Oh, I see this date like I see this night. And she did that throughout the book. And it actually really inspired my own writing. So like when I do remember outfits to put them in there because I just love the scene-painting.

Traci Thomas 6:01
Oh my god, I love it. Okay, Chelsea, thank you so much for doing this. Thank you for sharing your Mariah Carey moment. And we’re gonna have more people coming soon.

Alright, everybody, I am joined by Brandon Kyle Goodman. They are the author of You Gotta Be You. A book that we covered on the show. B is also my dear friend. Sorry, Brandon is also my- Anyways, hi, Boom. Welcome.

Brandon Kyle Goodman 7:49
Hi, baby. How are you?

Traci Thomas 7:51
I’m so good. I’m always so happy to talk to you. We’re gonna keep it brief.

Brandon Kyle Goodman 7:54
I know- the gayest text in the world was you sending me-

Traci Thomas 7:57
When I texted you, did you think it was a hate crime? Because I was like, Do you like Mariah Carey?

Brandon Kyle Goodman 8:03
Yes, I was like, Yeah, Mama, of course.

Traci Thomas 8:07
You were like, I like Mariah Carey. But I’m not a lamb. I don’t want to get in trouble for pretending to be a lamb.

Brandon Kyle Goodman 8:14
I don’t want to get in trouble. I was like, are we doing like trivia? I will fail. But I love me some Mariah.

Traci Thomas 8:20
Okay, great. So my first question for you is sort of like just generally speaking, what do you think of? What does it mean to you when someone says Mariah Carey?

Brandon Kyle Goodman 8:33
Oh, like ultimate Queen, ultimate, like pop diva icon sensation. Like, you know, obviously the not not Whitney Houston, The Voice, but one of the voices of our generations. Definitely like, you know, Whitney, Celine, Mariah like they- are she’s in that grandiose category for me.

Traci Thomas 8:53
You say definitely not Whitney. I mean, I prefer Whitney’s voice but I think Mariah can sing in seven octaves. That’s what they used to tell us as children.

Brandon Kyle Goodman 9:03
Let’s clear this up because. What I mean is Whitney is actually named The Voice and so I didn’t want- I was gonna say Mariah Carey is the voice but Whitney is The Voice but she is one of those great voices of our generation.

Traci Thomas 9:19
Okay. We’ve been reading the book for the book club. So I’m like, really on my Mariah Carey shit right now like really feeling strongly about her. But that being said, what is your favorite Mariah Carey song or moment?

Brandon Kyle Goodman 9:32
That’s really hard. There are a few of them but the one that immediately comes to mind is Shake it Off. I know there’s another song called Shake it Off by Taylor Swift but the one that I bow down to is my Mariah Carey, which is off the Emancipation of Mimi album, which is everything. It was at a time in my life where it was like I loved a little soft bop, you know, it’s very soft. Very soft, bop but also but also a catchy hook but also I feel like the song was really about like, know your fucking worth, you know, like it was really like I’m tired of this. You’re not treating me right, I’m gonna shake this off, you know, just like a commercial, you know. I think it was an empowering song. And I’m sure I was going through some, you know, fucking high school breakup or something.

Traci Thomas 10:51
No, you wish you were still in high school when that song came out.

Brandon Kyle Goodman 10:56
Oh, it was released in 2005 which is, uh, I graduated from high school.

Traci Thomas 11:00
Okay, fair. I thought Emancipation of Mimi was more recent. I feel like I’m so old. I can’t even remember when albums came out.

Brandon Kyle Goodman 11:07
No, that album was yeah, that was like, end of high school. Well, top of college for you because you’re a year older.

Traci Thomas 11:12
I am a year older than you, sweetest. I was an adult in college.

Brandon Kyle Goodman 11:15
Elder? You’re one of my elders.

Traci Thomas 11:17
Please respect me. Ms. Thomas to you. Ms. Stacks. Do you have anything else that you want to contribute to the Mariah Carey love fest? Any things?

Brandon Kyle Goodman 11:29
Any moment? I mean, obviously, the most important moment of it is “I don’t know her.” But I love. I think she’s on Andy Cohen’s show. And he like asked her about it to like, clear it up. She’s like, I still don’t know her.

Traci Thomas 11:45
it’s also in the book. So in the memoir. In the memoir, there’s so I guess like, I don’t I don’t remember the original context of them asking her about JLo. But yeah. In the book, she talks about how JLo, how like Tommy Mottola, stole a song that she was sampling for the Glitter soundtrack and gave it to JLo. And the song that is the song that it was on for JLo is I’m Real. It’s that sample. It’s that sample. Mariah wanted to use it for a different song. And then they ended up using a Cameo cover. But in the book, Mariah is like, yeah, and they took the they took the sample, and they gave it to a woman who I don’t know. And I was like, oh my God.

Brandon Kyle Goodman 12:28
Doubling down. Doubling down.

Traci Thomas 12:32
I was listening to the audiobook, and, when she said that I literally gasped, I was like, Oh my God, but I had to open the book and like, go through and then I had to, like, go online and be like, what was the song? Like? I was like, tense and like shaking because the petty is so real. I was like, maybe she really doesn’t know who the girl was, like, maybe it was like, I don’t know- JoJo Siwa?

Brandon Kyle Goodman 12:55
Yes, oh my god Jojo. She was her explanation of being like I literally have never met her that’s why I don’t matter but obviously-

Traci Thomas 13:01
It’s definitely more than just that.

Brandon Kyle Goodman 13:04
Absolutely her like understanding and then doubling down I still don’t know her is everything- that level of petty that I aspire to.

Traci Thomas 13:13
That’s how I got my nickname from you shady Traci, but I would definitely live a life of not knowing.

Brandon Kyle Goodman 13:20
That is a Traci line, 100 per cent.

Traci Thomas 13:24
Mariah Carey was important to me. I was a mixed girl growing up in the 90s. I think I embodied her shadiness and brought a whole new level to it for myself personally.

Brandon Kyle Goodman 13:32
And I love that and you know, we’re all better for it. Honestly. You keep us grounded and real.

Traci Thomas 13:38
I love you so much. This was so fun. Thank you for being part of the Mariah Carey “I don’t know her” spectacular. Feeling everyone is gonna say that as their favorite moment. Yeah. Moment. Well, thanks for being here. Everyone. You know, you can get B’s book. Brandon’s book. You gotta be you by Brandon Kyle Goodman. You can listen to episode I’m linking it to the shownotes. You all know the vibes. Alright bb. Thank you.

Brandon Kyle Goodman 14:04
Love you.

Traci Thomas 14:21
Alright, everybody. Our guest right now is my dear friend, the wonderful talented Vella Lovell. You may know, if you are a longtime listener, that Vella was one of like, my first five or six guests on the podcast. We read a horrible book called New Boy. I still think about how bad it was regularly. And Vella is an actress. She was on My Crazy Ex-Girlfriend. She was on Mr. Mayor. She’s filming a thing that I don’t know if we can talk about but she’s filming a thing in Vancouver currently where she’s like hanging out with animals. She’s like the pet police or something even though we’re very anti-police here. We still love you, Vella. Welcome to the bonus episode.

Vella Lovell 14:54
Thank you. That was an incredible intro.

Traci Thomas 14:58
You’re not just getting that at anywhere. You’re not just getting that on the red carpet, guys. So, Extra – hire me.

Vella Lovell 15:05
Only here at The Stacks.

Traci Thomas 15:08
I’ve pulled you in because I know you love Mariah Carey, and this is a pro Mariah Carey space. And so the first question that I’m asking everyone is just like when someone says Mariah Carey, what does that evoke? Mean? What comes to mind for you?

Vella Lovell 15:23
Oh my god, I mean, truly so much like, honestly, like a feeling of fuzziness, war, excitement. And if you will, like glitter inside of me like, and okay, like in the makeup trailer that so I’m filming this show called Animal Control right now. And they I walked in the trailer, and it was like it rains a lot in Vancouver and it was just kind of a sad day. And they were like, what, what music would you like to hear and I was just like, Mariah Carey, and it immediately I literally listened to we put on Always Be My Baby, which is my go-to karaoke song. Because no one can sing it.

Traci Thomas 16:01
I was gonna say that’s really a stretch.

Vella Lovell 16:03
No one can sing it. But the pursuit of trying to sing it is so much fun. And truly, by the end of like the two or three minute song, I was in a better mood. And I just feel like that’s Mariah Carey does for us all. She really does.

Traci Thomas 16:18
I have to ask you this question, though. Because in reading her book and thinking about it myself as a mixed girl, black and white, like Mariah Carey was like, the Midwest girl of my life. Do you have that feeling too?

Vella Lovell 16:33
100% and I, like we were kind of talking about this that like, how she talked about it in the book, and how she just presented like, I feel like she was just like, I am black. But I also understand how I present to the world. Like she was very just, she was very, like real about it in this really beautiful way where she wasn’t trying to be like, I’m black and force myself and into these spaces, because she knows she benefited from, like, you know, her privilege, but she also like, she also really wasn’t shying away from it too. And I just love how like she in the book, especially, talks about being biracial, and that no one knew what to do with her in the industry because I feel that so much, and I was just like, I just- she was she was the girl- she is one of our best representatives.

Traci Thomas 17:26
Yes, she is. She is top tier mixed girl representative. I feel like I always loved her and I always was like, you know, she’s really light like she doesn’t always like look black like she was black and I love this about her. And in recent days. It’s comes in stark contrast to Meghan Markle for me, because I’ve been like, yeah, watching her documentary and like reading Harry’s book, and I’m just sort of like, okay, you don’t want to be black. That’s fine. I guess. Like you don’t have to be black if you don’t want to be and then Mariah is over here looking way more passive, like could pass away easier. Yeah, like, I am black. My daddy is black. I’m black. I like black culture. I like black music. I know that somebody thinks I’m white. I look white. I have a white mom. Like, I’m black. And I love her. And I love that for us.

Vella Lovell 18:08
I love that for us. And I it’s so empowering. And also what she was doing with, like, hip hop were like, yeah, the, the label would be like, Oh, just do your pop song. And she would be like, okay, but I’m doing a whole other song. That’s gonna be the remix with the actual people that I know are actually aware-

Traci Thomas 18:27
With ODB. Get a life. Yeah. I’m bringing the Wu Tang Clan into this. Thank you.

Vella Lovell 18:33
And she was like, so brilliant in that way. And then And who was the- Da Brat? Yes. Like, with all the things that she was doing, no one asked her to do. But she did it because she knew that that’s like, what was actually happening and what yeah, what was like people were actually listening to and I just, I just feel like she’s so like, pro black while also not like, you know, she also like understands, like, how she’s perceived and what the situation is, and it’s just very empowering. I just love her.

Traci Thomas 19:07
I love her too. Okay. Now, here’s the real question that I’m asking everyone which is, what is your favorite Mariah Carey song? Or I guess moment?

Vella Lovell 19:18
Song or moment? Well, I have a lot.

Traci Thomas 19:21
Okay, we’ll go with your favorite song. I want everyone to at least do song.

Vella Lovell 19:24
Okay, okay. Okay. Um, it’s okay. It’s definitely can I do a tie? Please? Please, please, please. Okay, well, I already said so always be my baby is like- Always be my baby is kind of it for me. Also one sweet day, the collab with her and Boyz II Men. Because that music video is seared in my mind. Do you remember it?

Traci Thomas 20:12
I don’t remember the video.

Vella Lovell 20:13
I just, I just I it’s like on loop in my mind. It’s her and boys, two men in the studio. And they’re just like, doing all their riffs. And then I think there’s like a street there’s like some weird abandoned street or something that they’re riding down and like, but it’s mostly them in the booth. And I just, I just remember seeing that as like a little girl and just being like, that’s it for me like it’s just like the one girl in the booth. And she’s just like, blowing them all away. And I loved it. Also, I love my- one of my favorite Mariah Carey moments, as of recent, obviously is, I Don’t Know Her. That is so iconic. It’s so iconic. And it’s such diva behavior, which I think we like Mariah is just like prime diva. And I love it because it’s classy. And it’s shady as fuck. And I think I think that is what we can only hope for from our, our living divas. It’s that they’re classy and shady. And I love that.

Traci Thomas 21:36
That’s truly all I aspire to as a person is to be classy and shady. I cannot hit- I don’t always hit the classy bar. But I definitely always hit the shady bar. like I’ve never missed on shade. But I do sometimes miss on keeping it classy. Sometimes it’s just mean.

Vella Lovell 21:52
Sometimes it’s just mean. No, but like, but I feel like it’s what we can all aspire to is like she just said three words. And we know we knew it all. We had it all.

Traci Thomas 22:03
We know it all. And JLo honestly, has never recovered from that. I don’t think she ever could. I think her whole life has been destroyed from that moment on. Yeah, I just I know. I know. She married Ben Affleck recently or whatever. And plantation wedding or whatever. But like, I think that was probably a dig at Mariah Carey. She’s probably like, let’s get married on that plantation for that bitch Mariah Carey?

Vella Lovell 22:30
Oh my god.

Traci Thomas 22:31
I don’t know. This is all speculation. I’m not keeping it classy. Allegedly.

Vella Lovell 22:38
Seemingly, we’re working on it. I also love how she refers to JLo in the book as a female entertainer. I think that’s incredible as well.

Traci Thomas 22:48
Um, okay, any other last minute Mariah Carey things that you need to get off your chest to me?

Vella Lovell 22:53
Yes. Okay, sorry. Traci was like, it’s gonna be like five minutes. And I was like, and another thing. I also learnt something that also spoke to me. And I just like re listened to a few clips yesterday from the book. And I thought it was really empowering that when she was like this broke singer in New York City when she was like 18 years old and wearing her flappy boots around New York City. And she was picking up like little, you know, background singer gigs. And one of the singers was like, heard her demo and said, Can I use that song? And she said, No. And I thought that was such a baller move to be like, I have no money. I really need gigs. A huge person says, Can I use that song? And she said, No, I need it for me.

Traci Thomas 23:41
Yeah, she’s like, my songs are too good for you.

Vella Lovell 23:46
But like at 18 years old, like she knew that she was going to be big. Even though her worth- she knew her worth even though her current surroundings would have said otherwise. I just thought that was really incredible to be like, you like- if you believe, if you believe

Traci Thomas 24:03
When you believe. Whitney Houston and Mariah Carey soundtrack of Prince of Egypt, one of my favorites.

Vella Lovell 24:09
I’m just quoting, quoting song lyrics now, but I just thought it was really incredible in terms of like, even if your current surroundings aren’t what you want them to be you can like still have that integrity for yourself. It was incredible.

Traci Thomas 24:25
I love it- shade, class and integrity. Three words associated with the queen Lamb of lambs. Mariah Carey. This has been a 10 minute conversation with Vella Lovell, actress. Mariah Carey superfan and friend of the pod. Thank you, Vella.

Vella Lovell 24:40
Thank you for having me. Love you guys. Love The Stacks.

Traci Thomas 24:45
You’re the best. Love you bye. All right, everybody. We couldn’t talk about music, and Mariah Carey without talking to our favorite music writer person on the face of the earth. Hanif Abdurraqib. Honey, welcome back.

Hanif Abdurraqib 25:13
Yeah, thanks for having me. I’m really glad to get to do this.

Traci Thomas 25:16
I’m so excited because I always follow your when you go off on like these musical tangents on Instagram, but it’s usually music that I don’t know anything about. So now I get to force you to do this for us for Mariah Carey. Yeah. Which I don’t think you’ve ever done in recent years. A Mariah Carey moment on Instagram.

Hanif Abdurraqib 25:33
No, although it’s long overdue. I think I talked about Mariah Carey a lot with my friends, because we’re all like, around the same age. And we all kind of grew up with her. But I feel like, you know, when I got done with a book, I kind of got into I went to this rabbit hole of, I collect like vintage shirts and stuff like that. And so I found this, like, vintage Mariah Carey tour jacket, actually, just like two months ago, and I wore it one time. And then it kind of like it seems from 1992. So as these things go, it just started it was like vinyl and old and so it just kind of tore it so now it’s it diminished my sell that to say like when I was, you know, sadly throwing that jacket away, I was like, I’m gonna I’m gonna go down like Mariah Carey, rabbit hole, and then I kind of just never, never did.

Traci Thomas 26:22
Okay, well, we’re gonna have requests that you do that. I’ve been asking everyone who’s doing this sort of Mariah Carey moment, bonus episode two questions. The first one is when someone says Mariah Carey, what comes up for you?

Hanif Abdurraqib 26:35
You know, what’s interesting is I’m sure people’s answers vary on this. But there are a lot of folks who I think come to her in this era of I don’t for some reason, I don’t like the word diva. I know it’s not pejorative, but I think like the way it gets applied, does not always make me feel good. Yeah. I think it’s applied to women that I grew up loving. And it it gets applied in this way where it’s like, it can go either direction, where it’s a signifier of tenure, and affection, but also a signifier of difficulty. Yeah. So I think some people have think about where I in this kind of post 2000 And maybe, like post emancipation, Mimi era, but when when people say Mariah will come to mind, for me is like the video for Dream leather. Because it’s the first music video I saw of hers, where I could like, identify who she was. I don’t know, there’s something about early career Mariah, like, early 90s. Mariah that’s really appealing to me still, I think a lot about Little Richard, because Little Richard, actually just thought of this, because I have this old Rolling Stone interview that he where he says this thing about learning to be a star. It’s like, you know, what you learn is being a star just means that you sold records that someone else didn’t. And there’s a thing about early career, Mariah Carey, who was very successful, but perhaps did not yet fully understand that she was a star. Yeah, that’s kind of interesting to me. I’m always interested in musicians who are in that in that mode. I mean, some musicians don’t get that, you know, like Whitney Houston was always a star. And she was kind of like, molded to be a star. But Mariah Carey stardom happened in these waves, right? Like, I feel like early 90s, she was still successful, but was not a superstar. And that was, so that’s what comes to mind for me early, early. 90s. Right.

Traci Thomas 28:22
Wait, is it it’s in your book? It’s in a little title in America where you talk about the like, backstage moment before going on stage? Yeah, yeah. That’s just what came up for me if like, yeah, this thing of like, cuz she talks about it in her book, too. She’s like, I didn’t. There’s all these police cars and all this stuff. And I’m like, going to this concert. And I ask, what’s it about? And they’re like, it’s for you. She’s like, Wait, why? For me?

Hanif Abdurraqib 28:47
Yeah, there’s moments where you don’t know. I mean, I think there’s something really I love that moment in her book. Because there are times I think, for all of us, where the scope and scale of our life has accelerated beyond what we imagined it is. And, like, we’re almost unaware of it. Right? Even if you’re just like, the guy on your block who had a good game, you know, if you have like, if you’re like a high school basketball player, you had a good game on Friday night, in his Saturday morning, everybody’s like, tapping you up as you walk down the block that that is also an acceleration beyond your comprehension momentarily. So yeah, I mean, there’s something about that, that I think appeals to me, particularly in the lives of musicians, and Mariah is career arc has an interesting kind of you know, she was kind of her career has these different movements, like in the early era, it did seem like she was going to be primarily like a ballad singer. And you could be a ballad singer and a pop star. But at some point you maybe got to pick one or the other you know,

Traci Thomas 29:47
right right right. I feel like she she’s she went sort of like from girl next door like really girl next door like Katie Holmes ish to like that diva thing right like cuz in the beginning she was sort of just like, cute Mariah with her little like plaid tied around her waist. Like, she had this big voice, but she was this cute little girl and then all of a sudden, I mean, all of a sudden, but over time, she became like, Mariah, darling.

Hanif Abdurraqib 30:13
Yeah, yeah. And I kinda like the middle. Like, I feel like what happened in between there was the, I don’t know, whenever people classify this era of Moriah it’s often like white people talking in these like, coded.

Traci Thomas 30:27
Yes, like, are you talking about like, the like, family? Honey butterfly?

Hanif Abdurraqib 30:31
Yeah. If people are like, well, she became hip hop, right. But it’s like, no, no, I mean, I think she utilized an ability to mimic what she got so good at just like providing what the charts were calling for. I don’t think she gets enough credit for being a malleable, like, a malleable musician. And in a malleable singer of songs. Like if the charts called for poker in 1997, she would add a poker album and would have done well, right, you know, yeah. So that that kind of error, I think from like, from butterfly to you know, I personally, I remember seeing the movie because I think I wouldn’t make it but the album glitter, I don’t think the glitter is that bad. Like, I think it’s okay. Like, I think once you get out of that, if she becomes this kind of tenured, very much, like larger than life. You know, Mariah Carey doesn’t have to, you know, you hit a point where, like, you don’t have to make another album again. And I think she was at that point, probably, like, 20 years. I mean, I would say maybe after emancipation of Mimi, she, like, never had to make another album again. And she didn’t want to,

Traci Thomas 31:37
I would say even before that, I would say like rainbow.

Hanif Abdurraqib 31:40
Yeah, I mean, for me, like emancipation of Mimi is my favorite murder album. And I think it’s probably like, musically, in my mind her best, and I think was wild about it is that she didn’t even have to make it if she didn’t want. Yeah, you know, she would have to give us that. So, like, there’s songs on there. You know, like, shake it off is one of the great I think, like pop songs of my life. And she’s almost like sleepwalking through it, you know? Yeah. And I think that’s a testament to her ability. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 32:06
Okay. So this is the other question. I’m asking everybody. What’s your favorite Mariah Carey song, or moment? Or both? You could do one of each.

Hanif Abdurraqib 32:15
And every American moment, is 1991. Arsenio Hall Show. She does emotion. Yeah. And I’ll never forget the way our CEO introduced her. He introduced her by saying, you’re a good audience you deserve Mariah Carey is such a wonderful. And she was so I don’t know, I don’t want to classify her as timid but not not the some in Little Richard again. But he’s perhaps the greater actually Sam Cooke is a better analog for this. Since I started my like, I wish there was a better language for this and code switching, but for lack of a better language in the moment, there’s kind of this musical code switching thing where, you know, if you listen to Sam Cooke at the Copa and then listen to listen to him at the Harlem square club, you’re hearing two different singers. Yeah, I mean, like, you’re here, someone at the Copa who’s like, black Frank Sinatra kind of thing. And then square club, he’s like, you know, you could tell you get here on record, this dude is like sweating through his shirt, you know. And Mariah, earlier in her career, kind of, you know, and I know there’s other racial complications and right in terms of growing up biracial, and all of these things, but at the City Hall Show, do an emotion she had like a black church choir behind her. She had like black dancer, she was in this kind of life, her outfit was very strange for our call. It was like, there’s a red sweater over like a weird, red blouse kind of thing. But she was kind of that song. I think, by design has these kind of church like elements to it, it has these kind of coral swells in these kind of opportunities to let a chorus breathe out the empty spaces. And what the song also does, by design, is it provides I think, three or four distinct opportunities from right to get up into the whistle register, right? Yeah, there was a thing that happened in the 90s. I think, like rainbow era, even how the, you know, butterfly era where the structure of her songs always used to kind of make it so that she would get up into that whistle whistle register at the very end, right, a sound like Heartbreaker, right? Where you don’t get that until the very end of the day, right? Right. And it’s because people used you know, people got so used to it, that they would just sit and wait for it. But in earlier songs, the structure would be like she would get up into that like, at the end of you know, the motion happens in like the end of the first chorus. And that happens again, in the very end is when it’s like okay, now it’s like it’s like a firework show, right? Where like you see a few and then at the very end there’s like a lot and there are CineAlta performance is so great because the first rotation of it, she nails it second rotation, she, this thing happens where you can tell me she didn’t breathe that well, because she doesn’t get all the way through just kind of improvise. But the crowd is still kind of like on her side and this thing at the end where she kind of gets to go through the rotations of it, where the crowd is just like losing it, like the crowd is you know. She’s so young at the time, and I don’t know what number television performance that was for her. I know that was the first time on Arsenio Hall Show. But she kind of figured out how to, it’s very like Apollo, like, you know, you learn how to how to cut through to a black audience really quickly, right? And you learn how to make it so that even your mistakes seem seem like really clean. And that performance stands out to me. That’s that’s like my favorite Mariah moment. Favorite song? I don’t know. I mean, it varies by the day. I will say that. I think Daydream is my favorite. Well, I mean, Mimi, I think is I hate doing anything right. delineate best and favorite, I think, best record,

Traci Thomas 36:35
you know, too much. I feel like for like us normals it’s like, Oh, it’s my favorite song. Like, I don’t care. When you say it, it like puts so much pressure on it.

Hanif Abdurraqib 36:43
I mean, Daydream is up there, Daydream is a really great album. And, you know, my, my most like, the Muraya take that I get in the most trouble about is that I actually would love to ODB like, truly, actually don’t like, I just want the original fantasy, you know, because for me, you’re I’m thinking about a pop song and r&b song has a rap verse. The rap verse has to be better than the chorus. Otherwise, I would just I’ll just take another rotation with the chorus. Yeah, and I just you know, that original fantasy. I remember hearing that and be like, this is like the best song I’ve ever heard in my life. Yeah, I was like, 12 years old, and I was like, this is I’ll never hear a song. That’s good again.

Traci Thomas 37:22
Yeah. I actually don’t love the remix that much either. Personally, I agree. I think it’s like now sort of like a funny nostalgic moment. Like, I listened to the audiobook and they like play that section. And I’m like, oh, New York. Like yeah, like kinda like rolls like that. I love it. But it’s not my favorite Mariah Carey song by far but you also haven’t still said your favorite. It doesn’t have to be the best one. It just has to be the one that like the one that I want me flaunt the one when you hear like yeah, baby

Hanif Abdurraqib 37:53
you know, as well, she I think its own rainbow. The very last song of rainbow. Is this cover of take a look at me now. Oh, yes. I love that. That might be my favorite Mariah. So I think it’s because I don’t like the original version, you know, the original version? As long as there’s not me at all. Yeah, and you know, Phil Collins, I guess. But the original version of it just doesn’t move me in any way. And I remember hearing that edit it. Also that song feels almost out of place on that album. But are these moments on these records, particularly these, like 90s record at 1000s records? Where some of it is just like Mariah reminding us that she can sing very well. Yeah, Whitney had moments like that. I’m like, your love is my love that album. You know, like, there were moments. You hear that? You know? I think about it, because I think there is some way she’s competitive. You know, like, yeah, when I think about diva in the sense that is more positive. I think about competitors. You know, Reba. I remember when Aretha covered rolling of deep and it wasn’t like a great cover. You know, I mean, she was older and not well, whatever. But her thing was like, I heard that song and I was like, I gotta get after that. I can do I gotta give it a shot. And there’s something about Mariah where people I know now we’re like, what’s her voice isn’t what it used to be. And it’s like, of course not. The voice is a machine like anything else in ages and but I think that she has that inner where you know, she’s always going to to, to show us that she can sing. It’s I love that cover because even though it doesn’t fit on that record, it’s a testament to I think like her kind of you know, critics are kind of after her for taking this this different Sonic approach and I it was good to hear her kind of tap back and I’m like that

Traci Thomas 40:02
I want to do this with all my favorite pop stars. Want to ask you what you think about them? This is so fun for me. Thank you so much. This was such a treat. Everybody you know, honey, you we did his book on the show. He’s been on the podcast. He’s how’s the new book coming?

Hanif Abdurraqib 40:18
It’s done. It’s Oh, yeah, it’s been. It’s wild because this is the first year. I mean, Lord Wilson, this is the first year I won’t be putting out a book or writing a book. So it doesn’t come out. It was there’s always this year, we’re supposed to come out in November. And I kind of was like, can we push it just like to 20? I just, I want to have a year. Yeah, I’m right in because we pushed it. I was like, I’m finishing it before. 2022 is over. So I finished it in November. It’s kind of it’s like in the Can we went through edits. I’m waiting on some make final edits. And I’m sure that we copy edits. But in terms of the book itself, yet, it’s a wrap. It’s like it’s in the back.

Traci Thomas 40:53
Okay, well, so there’s a forthcoming basketball book 2024. You can do of course, the book that we did on the show, which was a little double in America about bad performance. You’ve got poetry, you’ve got essays. You’ve got fantastic Instagram feed with lots of fun musical moments. You got a podcast objective sound, you guys can find him he’s everywhere, honey. Thank you so so so much.

Hanif Abdurraqib 41:13
Thank you for having me. This is a real pleasure. I can’t wait to hear the whole the whole episode.

Traci Thomas 41:32
Right everybody next up in the Mariah Carey magical moment of Life Episode. Friend of the pod you all know and love her every time she comes on. I get so many messages about how she needs to come back. So she’s back. So leave me alone. It is the Cree Myles. Welcome back.

Cree Myles 41:51
Thank you super excited to be here. Super excited to talk about Mariah, don’t get me started.

Traci Thomas 41:57
Okay, we love Mariah. This is like the most pro Mariah Carey podcast episode baby ever recorded in the history of the internet. I’m asking everyone basically the same two questions. And the first question is when someone says Mariah Carey, what comes up for you?

Cree Myles 42:13
Cool. That is a loaded ask question. Traci. Okay, first and foremost, the fact that she came on the scene looking like that. And also, thinking like that, it’s just, it’s never gonna happen again. Like, it’s, it’s literally, so I think about just the other worldliness of her of her brand. And then I, I honestly pair that. And I’m, I’m almost afraid to say this in the event that I ever run into her because I really want first and foremost to know that like, deep respect, like bow down deep into the earth because of that voice. But I just wish that there’s something about her like current brand, that just feels like insecure. And it just, it hurts my feelings. Yeah, like, just because you are such you are a cultural icon. You are like, a you are so important to pop culture and music, and voices. You should not give a fuck about anybody. I just don’t. And I just wonder whose job it was to, like, tell her that and who didn’t do that job. Because, like,

Traci Thomas 43:36
you obviously have not read the memoir.

Cree Myles 43:39
I haven’t read. She talked about that?

Traci Thomas 43:42
The whole memoir is like about her. You know, she talks about her childhood and like all the ways and places that she’s insecure. It’s interesting that you say that because I feel like her newest persona, sort of like older Mariah like, grown up. Mariah is very, not insecure. But to me, it reads it’s like very standoffish. Like, you’re only getting me in a gown. You’re only getting me doing like a Christmas moment. You’re only getting me sort of like, at a distance. Yeah. And I think that that is because of like, all the places she’s been through and all the things she’s been through. But I do agree that it is like a, like a performance of Mariah, or like, it doesn’t feel like super authentic or like, open, which I think can read as maybe insecure or like guarded or unsure uncertain.

Cree Myles 44:31
It was the I mean, it was the reality show. That was just like,

Traci Thomas 44:35
I didn’t watch her and Nick Cannon.

Cree Myles 44:38
I don’t remember seeing Nick very often. I didn’t watch a bunch of it. But it was just like, you know, what reality shows do to images. And we just didn’t need that to happen. And also, like, in a dream world, and I’m sure she feels like this too. Like, I didn’t they could have signed an NDA or something. I don’t know because this is just it just got messy.

Traci Thomas 45:00
Yeah, right, right. Yeah, I’m not. I’m not super, like one of the things that I found really interesting. I mean about the book, but also just in general is like, I have very Murat strong Mariah Carey, feelings about Mariah Carey, like up through 2005 Like emancipation of Mimi, and then everything that’s happened since sort of like, I don’t know, I don’t remember. Like, I just know, she kind of pops up in a red gown and says, It’s time like for Christmas. Yeah. But like, I’ve not kept up with her at all. And like, even, I mean, even maybe before emancipation of Mimi, like, I remember that album, like, I don’t, I don’t know, like, I feel like after rainbow, she sort of disappeared from my mind as a thing. And so whenever I think of her, I think of her as Mariah Carey from the early 90s, through like the 2000s. You know,

Cree Myles 45:53
I just, I just think when I distinctly remember, I was watching some Justin Timberlake, something, and NSYNC was on their world tour. And it had been like three nights back to back sold out Madison Square Garden. And somebody said to Justin, look around, this is never happening again. Like you need to relish this, soak it up, et cetera. And to be 20 something again, looking like that and singing like that. I wish someone would have just like sat her down and been like, this is not permanent. Right. And you need like your career’s going to have to evolve because you weren’t going to age like the same. Like, like Beyonce is doing it beautifully, you know, and I just feel like a part of the reason she standoffish is because she has no idea what to do with the fact of the reality is that she ain’t.

Traci Thomas 46:46
Yeah, that’s so interesting. Yeah. And she is, yes. Okay. The other question that I’m asking everyone is, what is your favorite Mariah Carey song and or moment, so you could do a song in a moment, or just a song or a moment, but I think you have to do a song. So you could do a song and a moment or just a song up to you.

Cree Myles 47:05
Oh, I have- So I’ve prepared for this. So I really liked the juxtaposition from the early 90s. Mariah were like, I remember where I was when I heard emotions, like I was little and whatever, you know, so I remember that and be like dancing. And then when she came out with the emancipation of Mimi, I remember I was like, 16 and I was like, You better not saying like, it was like, I have shown y’all what I can do and I don’t have to do that every time. So that song is shake it off.

Traci Thomas 47:41
Okay, you’re the second person to say Shake it Off.

Cree Myles 47:44
Because listen, my I’m you know, I’m competitive. So my answer has to be better. It’s because she’s in that head voice the whole time like half singing, she only gives us to actually musical moments where she does that run and then the ad libs at the end where she the only time she goes into a full voice and it’s like kind of backed off from the actual refrain- And I was just like, going through it with a fuckboy. So it was like, I revisited that song once I went to college, which was like three years later, and it was just that and bust your windows by merch by Jazmine Sullivan just that was the playlist that right, I was like, I don’t give a damn whatever. And I like rage, like I am going to cut you, so Oh my god. It was it was perfect. And that song is so and I just it really feels like a flex to me that she just I felt like she was like, I’ve proven to you all. Why I am cemented among the great vocalist and I do not have to keep putting out songs like that. So listen to me, chirp.

Traci Thomas 49:23
Listen to me, kind of just show you that I’m still better than everyone but also like not trying but also you know, shake it off.

Cree Myles 49:36
It was just so- with Jermaine Dupri! Stop it. It is so random, but I loved it.

Traci Thomas 49:43
Okay, and do you have a moment or ik moment that you love?

Cree Myles 49:47
I mean, I love that moment that went viral. When she was she was getting that star and she like handed her child. Someone Oh, I don’t know. This cuz it’s just was like she was like posing and stuff and it’s just like, Okay take the take home and like to people who don’t have children, I’m sure there’s a thing like, oh my god, alright as a parent, but it’s just like I have to get this thing done. Where’s the person who said they were gonna watch the baby? Totally? Where’s my mom? Where’s my mom? So it makes me laugh every time I think about it.

Traci Thomas 50:24
I mean, I’m gonna go watch that immediately. This was amazing. Do you have any other Mariah Carey hot takes? What about selling you hate anything you want to just throw out casual Mariah Carey moment?

Cree Myles 50:35
I love also Oh my god. When shad did does that. He was like spinning in a field saying he was listening to old Mariah Carey songs and he was just like, just like pure innocence. You know, Shawn is a baby. And Mariah responded back like, out here living my best life listening to old Shawn Mendes songs. I don’t know what her sign is, but she’s ruthless.

Traci Thomas 51:11
Oh, what is her sign? I think she’s an Aries. She’s an Aries. She talks about it in the book.

Cree Myles 51:14
That checks out perfectly. That’s why she can’t walk away.

Traci Thomas 51:19
Yes, she and she says to herself, Aretha Franklin and her like have a birthday like a few days apart. They’re both Aries. And I want to say maybe Diana Ross also she mentioned a few other like diva Aries in the book. And I was like, Oh my god. Okay, so this is a thing. That totally so you late March, early April, people are or is it April to May, I can’t remember.

Cree Myles 51:43
Late march, early April because Ethan’s an Aries and our quintessential literary queen is Nikole Hannah Jones. She can’t not clap back. Ever.

Traci Thomas 51:51
No, she can not.

Cree Myles 51:53
They can’t they can’t not clap back. That’s my favorite thing about Aries. They can’t do it.

Traci Thomas 51:59
Mariah Carey just had a recent tweet where someone was like, oh my god, Mariah Carey and Marie Curie, like confused or something. And Mariah Carey was like, she has two Nobel Prizes. I have two double diamond platinum records. So it’s basically the same. I was like, Sure. And then later that same day, this is like such a random story. But I was reading like, you know, those little books that are like, Frida Kahlo, Coco Chanel. Yeah, for kids. So in the back of those books, we were reading the Frida Kahlo book in the back of the books. There’s like, all the other books and there’s a pictures of them. And my kids like to ask, like, Who’s that? What’s her name? What’s her name? And it was Marie curry. And I was like, oh, Marie Curie, and my, my kid was like, Mariah Carey. We’ve been listening to so much right, Gary, and I was like, Mariah would not like that. Okay, she’s got to double diamond platinum albums. Okay.

Cree Myles 52:54
Don’t confuse the two. Oh, my God. Yeah, she’s great. I love I’m grateful that she is here on the planet. I’m grateful for the art she’s given us. I respect her a lot.

Traci Thomas 53:04
Same same. Well, this has been a joyful time with Cree on her Mariah Carey moments. Cree, thank you so much.

Cree Myles 53:12
Thank you for having me. Yay.

Traci Thomas 53:30
Alright, everybody. Next up is the wonderful Dawnie Walton. You all probably know Dawnie either from her book, the final revival of Opal and Nev. Dawnie was on the podcast in 2020. I think 2020, 2021. Yes. I’m like, Wait, when was that? And Dawnie is also the cohost of the incredible podcast with Deesha Philyaw. We love Dawnie around here, Dawnie, welcome to The Stacks bonus episode.

Dawnie Walton 53:57
Oh, I’m so excited to be here, Traci.

Traci Thomas 54:00
Thank you so much. So we’re talking Mariah Carey today? Yeah. I’m asking everyone basically the same two questions. The first question is when someone says Mariah Carey, what comes up for you? What comes to mind? What is your feeling? Thoughts?

Dawnie Walton 54:12
Oh, my gosh, well, okay, first of all the music of course. I mean, I still remember vision of love video, and my grandma’s house with my cousin Mike, who was totally in love with her. We were all like, Oh, my God, like she that voice was just on deniable. Right? So that’s like the first thing and then I think about so many pop culture moments, and probably the first one I think about is the episode of cribs, MTV Cribs. tub, the bathtub, also the closet. I feel like this is the first time I ever saw the closet that looks like like a Bloomingdale’s like shopping like area and everything and I remember that show cribs because you It was like you either had people who win big, big, big, or like like low, low low. And so those are my two favorites. Wow. Redman the Redman episode is hilarious like they go to his apartment and the doorbell doesn’t work. And he’s like, completely I don’t know if he’s like, I, there’s like video games all over the place dirty clothes. And he’s just completely owning it. And it is amazing. So that is like on the low end, which is amazing. And then the highest of the high was Mariah Carey, and her wardrobe and her bubble bath with her up do and everything. And it was a full episode. I remember that it took the whole time. Because usually they did like three places on one episode, and it was all Mariah. And it was incredible. So think about that. And then I think about I don’t know her, which is something I say in my group text like, group chat all the time. Constant, but she just keeps giving and giving and giving. She gives it Christmas time. I mean, like how amazing.

Traci Thomas 56:07
Yeah, she’s the pop star that keeps on giving. Yeah, I don’t know her is. I mean, you’re like the second maybe third person who’s brought this up on Oh my in this conversation like she truly that moment. And the then she like, clarifies and like the whole thing in her in the audiobook or in the book. She mentioned this thing that happens when Tommy Mottola gives a sample that Mariah had planned to use to JLo. And she’s like, she, he gave it to another pop star who I don’t know. And I was like, oh my god, it’s even in the book. Just like the humor of Mariah, and also the shade of Mariah and like, again, just keeps on giving-

Dawnie Walton 56:51
It’s just everything and then like, so she can be like with that kind of like, diva thing, but I feel like um, was it the cribs episode or something else? I feel like she has this like great squad of girlfriends. And I remember her being close friends with Da Brat. And I was just like, their friendship is so sweet. You know what I mean?

Traci Thomas 57:11
You have to read the book, Dawnie. Da Brat is in the book. There is a great scene with Da Brat and french fries in the book.

Dawnie Walton 57:17
Oh my god. I love it. I love it. I love her.

Traci Thomas 57:21
I love her. I know. It’s just she’s like, I feel like she’s one of the few pop star celebrities for me that I’m just like, I love her. Yeah, like, I don’t I don’t care. I don’t care. I don’t care what you guys I don’t care. Like I’ve blocked out all the bad things she’s ever done in her life. And I just love her and I love the music and like if you play emotions, I’m gonna have a good day. I don’t care that’s such a you know, Song emotion. Yes. Such a Yeah, well, we’ll transition to this. What is your favorite Mariah Carey song?

Dawnie Walton 57:46
Okay. My favorite Mariah Carey song is Always Be My Baby. I get it is basically the perfect song. First of all, it’s like this wonderful blend of like, pure pop because the chorus is so catchy. It’s such an ear worm. But it also has so much soul like right from the beginning when she comes in on the vocal and she’s doing that ad lib that is- doo doo. doo. Oh, yeah, yes. And it’s just like, I don’t know, like, it’s it’s hard to think of pop singers who are able to kind of like find that perfect blend. You know? Like, I love Jennifer Hudson, I think of like Jennifer Hudson, right. And she is probably one of the best singers alive today. Right? But for some reason, she can’t really like get into like a pop group. Toe told him the same way. And so like this song for me hits all the levels. And it’s also like just before what I call the whispery Mariah era. Yeah. When she said like, Honey, I love honey. It’s a cute song, right?

Traci Thomas 59:10
That’s my favorite song. Honey.

Dawnie Walton 59:12
It’s so great. It’s so great. I also got a little frustrated with Mariah in this era because of like, Girl, we know you can sing like, open your mouth and sing, You know what I mean?

Traci Thomas 59:21
Interesting. See, I don’t think of the Whisper era coming that early. I think it comes in. I feel like emancipation of Mimi is like the Whisper album to me, because I feel like the album with honey. It’s I think it’s butterfly. I feel like she’s like, I guess I guess she was whispering a little bit on breakdown. Yeah, she does. You’re right she she’s entering the Whisper phase. You’re right.

Dawnie Walton 59:43
It’s a gradual thing, right. But that kind of frustrated me so much. And I was I remember thinking at the time like, gosh, is something wrong with her vocal cords? Is she doing like rest or something? But I was just like, I really I just love it when Mariah is playful, but she’s all So singing the way that we that she can sing, and for me like the production of always be my baby Jermaine Dupri. Also, how badass is this. Mariah is on the lead vocal. And Mariah is also backing her herself on this.

Traci Thomas 1:00:18
It’s so Mariah.

Dawnie Walton 1:00:19
It’s so Mariah. It’s so great. I think she does that on a number of songs. But it’s like who else, who else could do that?

Traci Thomas 1:00:39
I never even thought about that. But you’re right, because she is the backup for a lot of her songs. And it’s like D’Angelo asked, you know, it’s like, layered on top of layers or layers. I think Lauryn Hill does it sometimes too, right? Yeah. Where she like backs herself up. Maybe it’s like a very 90s thing to do.

Dawnie Walton 1:00:57
Maybe so maybe so but it totally works.

Traci Thomas 1:01:00
It so works. I mean, that song- I was in middle school and I just remember it was like the like all the girls like singing about my fifth grade boyfriend. It’s such an important love song.

Dawnie Walton 1:01:13
Isn’t that’s a video with kids in it too. Isn’t it? Like a like a summer camp? I might be wrong. If I’m wrong, cut it out, but-

Traci Thomas 1:01:21
No, I can’t remember. Is it? I think- isn’t it black and white?

Dawnie Walton 1:01:25
No, I think-. I don’t remember it being black and white, I don’t know-

Traci Thomas 1:01:33
We’ll put a link in the show notes for those of you to see how wrong Dawnie and I are.

Dawnie Walton 1:01:37
My memories terrible, but

Traci Thomas 1:01:40
Yeah, I feel like you’re right that she’s able to do like the pop but still like the soulful thing and I feel like that is to me a person who loves pop music. I feel like that’s where a lot of like the great vocalists fall short, which is what makes someone like a Whitney Houston or Mariah Carey so incredible is that they can sing and they can give you a bop like, oh my god, like I’m here. I’m dancing. The song comes on. Everyone’s like, yeah, yes. Like the dance floor.

Dawnie Walton 1:02:09
It’s like you’re just summer time we’re in the car. We’re singing along. We’re waving our hands like, yeah, right.

Traci Thomas 1:02:17
It’s just so both of them have like, the anthem and the pop. Like they can do both. And I feel like a lot of people can do one or the other. And they are. And Mariah, even more so than Whitney because Mariah Whitney has so many ballads. She has a few great pop bops. But Mariah is like 5050

Dawnie Walton 1:02:38
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I’m also thinking about like, once we day and hero I mean, these are like Monster, Monster.

Traci Thomas 1:02:47
Vision of Love is such- Emotions. Daydream, like there’s just so – Dream Lover! That’s my second favorite- dream lover and honey and emotions are my three. Those are my three where I’m just like- and I think Emotions and Honey are the same song. Matured or like different. Like, I feel like they’re such similar songs to me. I don’t know. I don’t know. They just feel similar to me. Just maybe it’s just how I feel emotionally. And I feel like emotions is like the early honey. I kind of have like the riffing at the edge of honey. She does all the time.

Dawnie Walton 1:03:22
That’s the first time she She does the high note right on that.

Traci Thomas 1:03:25
Emotion emotion. Yeah, yeah. Okay, Dawnie, anything else you want to say about Mariah before I let you go?

Dawnie Walton 1:03:31
Oh, no, I think I said it all. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 1:03:34
Okay, you said it all. Thank you so much, Dawnie, and be sure to go Dawnie’s book The final revival of Opal & Nev. it is in paperback and hardcover these days. You can get whatever you prefer. And you have to listen to her podcast with Deesha Philyaw. It’s called Ursa short fiction. It’s incredible. It’s all about short fiction. So for my short story people check it out. For my not short story people, also check it out. Dawnie, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Dawnie Walton 1:03:57
Thank you, Traci. This was fun.

Traci Thomas 1:03:59
Yay and everyone else we will see you in The Stacks!

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