TSU 23 Talking HBO’s Watchmen Series with David Dennis Jr. – Transcript

Friend of The Stacks David Dennis Jr. is back to help us break down the 2019 HBO limited series Watchmen, in honor of our July book club episode about Alan Moore’s iconic graphic novel. We discuss David’s obsession with the show, its pivotal race moments and one special ingredient that the series added to its source material.

*This episode is exclusive to members of The Stacks Pack on patreon. To join this community, get inside access to the show, and listen now, click the link below.


*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:11
Alright, Stacks Unabridged episode. We are doing something we’ve actually never done on the show before. But I think this might become a new thing. If we don’t put this up today, I am joined by friend of the pod, one of my favorite humans, David Dennis, Jr, author of The Movement Made Us. David, welcome back.

David Dennis Jr 0:30
Thanks for having me. I’ve been practically begging to come on. I was like, we have to do this. So I’m glad you did you it.

Traci Thomas 0:39
So here’s what we’re doing. David and I are going to talk about the Watchman HBO series. So not the movie that I have been told is horrible because I cannot possibly sit through a bad movie right now. And not the book because we already talked about that with Joel Christian Gill. David is here to do the onscreen adaptation from 2019 Starring Regina King made by Damon Lindelof or however you say that name. But first before we do that since the last time you talked to David he has been he was working on a secret project. And he couldn’t talk about it. But now his secret project is in the world. So David tell the people about your secret project.

David Dennis Jr 1:18
The secret not-so-secret project is Rap Stories which came out June 1st, which is basically one the reason why I’m talking about it here is because it’s basically me ripping off The Stacks but talking to rappers, so that’s what I do. So it’s basically I talked to 12 rappers about a project of theirs, so like the some that they you know, wasn’t necessarily the most obvious choice for all, just some old things just have like an honest assessment of their own work, which is really cool. Sort of came out of the book talks I was doing for The Movement Made Us and just, you know, learning that like, hey, everything that comes out is not perfect, like you not do as the person who puts it out. You don’t feel like it’s perfect when it comes out. So I wanted to talk to them basically about the anxieties I had about writing a book but about their albums. So we talked to let’s say you talk to bunbee. We talked to Big KRIT, we talked to MC Lite, we talked to Curren$y, we talked to Freddie Gibbs, we talked to Goodie Mob, we talked to Ja Rule, so it was really cool. It debuted number one on Apple podcasts.

Traci Thomas 2:23
Flex. Unlike Stacks, which did not debut at number one, anywhere. It ripped it off better.

David Dennis Jr 2:31
It’s number one in all of our hearts. And no, because like seriously though, I was really like, trying to figure out how this will work. And I was like, Let’s do like a book talk. And I was like, let’s just make it you know, conversational, and book talking. And let me research on my favorite parts. And one of the places to research the stack. So the stack is very instrumental in this making this work.

Traci Thomas 2:52
Did you give me a producer credit? Yes or no?

David Dennis Jr 2:56
Um, you know, we’re working on it or working on I’m giving you a homie credit.

Traci Thomas 3:01
I haven’t got any producer credits, but it’s fine. I know. I know. They can take a while. Yeah, they’re working on it. Did you words, were there things that you learned from the show that surprised you? Because I’m sure you know, you did like your favorite, like some of your favorite albums or whatever. So when you got to talk to them? Were there things that people said where you were like, really?

David Dennis Jr 3:30
Yeah, so one of my favorite questions, which again, came out of the book process was like, what’s something that drives you crazy? Like, what are some that you still listen back to and it just irks you? And almost to a person everybody had some that they really, really hate about this project that they love, and it’s mostly and I felt them because it was mostly something that nobody else notices. You know? Ja Rule said that between me and you. He says floor ever instead of forever accidentally. And how many times have you sung the song and never noticed?

Traci Thomas 4:00
Wow, incredible. I’m stealing that question from you now.

David Dennis Jr 4:07
Yeah, go for it.

Traci Thomas 4:08
I should. Okay, so everybody go listen to rap stories wherever you get your podcasts but also leave it a rating and a review. You know, I tell you this all the time, very helpful. So don’t just listen rate and review. You can review now or you can right now on Spotify. So if you’re not listening through Apple podcasts, do it on Spotify. We want David show to remain in the top Yeah, something we want like like all good parents. I want my offspring like David’s podcast to surpass me in every way.

David Dennis Jr 4:40
Yes, we’re all your sons. We’re all your sons.

Traci Thomas 4:44
Do you know that play?

David Dennis Jr 4:46
No, I was thinking of a Nicki Minaj unlike all these reference all these bitches is my sons I was thinking Nicki Minaj. But pretty much the same thing.

Traci Thomas 4:56
Miller has a very famous play called All My Sons and As, at the end of the play, there’s a scene and it’s always played by this, like, you know, it’s an older dad, his kids like in their 20s, wherever at the end of the play, there’s a scene and then he always goes, or the line is they were all my sons, but every actor always does it like they were all my sons. It’s like the most dramatic moment in American theater. And I was like, David knows all my son.

David Dennis Jr 5:22
No, I know. Anyways, I know Nicki Minaj. That’s it.

Traci Thomas 5:24
So same, same deal. Okay. Well, we’re gonna talk about Watchmen, I have my book here, but we’re gonna talk about the show. So I think that is important for people to know about you and your relationship to the book, and to the show, sort of generally.

David Dennis Jr 5:42
Okay, so watch. So I am an avid comic book person. I mean, people cannot see this. My wall is full of comic books, mostly black first appearances on my wall, does that mean, the first appearances of black characters are all on the wall? I see. So. But I mean, I’ve been reading, like, since I was four years old, I bought X Men when I was four. And that was like one of the greatest comics ever. And I’ve been reading pretty much nonstop. And so watchmen came out what 86 Like when I was born, and so I went back and read it, at some point, I think in high school, and it blew me away. It really was one of my favorite, like, just books ever at the time. I mean, I’ve grown to have a sort of complicated feeling about watchmen as a comic book. But the way that it sort of toggles with history and just like reshapes the way we talked about comic books and superheroes and puts them in this ultra realism thing, and Alan Moore’s is absolute genius. Like he’s written some of my favorite books, which tapped in I must recommend to everybody is like, one of those like Law and Order cop procedural comics, but takes place in a city where everybody is a superhero. And it’s like, really cool.

Traci Thomas 6:52
Wait, what’s it called? Top? 10? Top?

David Dennis Jr 6:54
10? Yes.

Traci Thomas 6:54
I thought you were saying it’s top 10? I don’t know for you. The name of the book is top 10. Yes. Top 10. And that’s one of your top favorite books.

David Dennis Jr 7:00
That’s one of my favorites.

Traci Thomas 7:01
Yeah. Better than Watchmen.

David Dennis Jr 7:05
Um, they’re different. So top 10 is more like a, it was more like ongoing sort of series as wide kind of watching was like sort of self contained. But I think there there is just as good, I think.

Traci Thomas 7:16
Okay. So the shows coming out. You know, you know, take us back to 2019. You know, the show is coming. You’re a fan. What are you thinking? You see the cast? You see Regina King? You see? Jean smart maybe I don’t know who you care about? You see Yaya Abdullah team. Second, right. What a babe. What are your thoughts going in?

David Dennis Jr 7:42
Yeah, you know, we’ll talk about Yeah, a little bit. But um, I so I had no thought I was just like, interested. I was not. I didn’t want to know anything about it. I knew it was a sequel of sorts. I know what took place afterwards. And I was really kind of expecting like, another sort of superhero thing. I didn’t think it would be what it was like, I didn’t know it’d be like, blackish shit. I didn’t know. Like, I knew Virginia game was ending, but I didn’t know what what they were going to talk about what they were going to do. I thought it was going to be deep into the lore of the book, which is what you know, kind of is, but you can watch it without having read the book. Obviously, you did. And so I went into it sort of just like, yeah, cool Watchmen, it’d be it’d be interesting to see what happens.

Traci Thomas 8:22
And then you watch it. And what do you think initial thoughts?

David Dennis Jr 8:27
Okay, so I wish more than anything that I could go back and rewatch the first episode of Watchmen for the first time. Like, when I think about when I think about that feeling that I had, I don’t think that there’s anything pop culture wise. That touches re imagining the Superman origin story in Tulsa during the Tulsa massacre like that. I mean, who thinks of doing that, and like who like how is that possible? You know, like, I watched it, like the first 10 minutes of Watchmen, the first episode, Watchmen is like the greatest thing to ever happen in TV history, right. And you end it with future plan. And it’s like this incredible scene. And I was hooked like I was I actually had to rewatch the first episode, because I was just so hooked on those first 10 minutes. I went through that series. I watched every episode three times a week. All right, leading into the next episode. I was dissecting, I was predicting, I was right on most of the predictions. I felt like a super genius because I was like, knew what was happening on most things. And I just, I mean, I was I don’t think I’ve ever been as obsessed or into a show as I was with Watchmen.

Traci Thomas 9:44
Wow. Okay, let me tell you about me. Okay. I watched the show in 2019. I think it came out in ipython. True. The show came out in December 2018. And I was like, I don’t do superheroes. A friend of mine from college. I was in the writers room. And so I was like, I will watch the show. As you may know, my children were born in December 2019. So then after that there was a pandemic. So I didn’t get to watchmen until August or so I went back and looked at my text messages, August or so of 2020. Okay. So, I had had the experience that many Americans had of racial reckoning summer, right? I unlike apparently, every white person ever was familiar with the Tulsa race massacre. Right, right. Like I was familiar with that. So I wasn’t like, what’s this history?

David Dennis Jr 10:41
But so crazy. That was so crazy how few people knew about it.

Traci Thomas 10:45
Nobody knew about it. I remember a friend of mine was living in Tulsa. And she was like, Did you did you saw this episode? And I was like, No, I fucking knew. But so so my frame of watching the show was like, we were wearing masks, people were talking about race. So it didn’t feel like special to me, in a lot of those ways that I know that people who watched it when it came out, were like, holy shit, what’s going on? And then they were like, damn, Lindelof predicted marriage. So I didn’t have any of that. I also didn’t have a fucking clue what was going on in the show? Until basically the last episode, because I didn’t know who Laurie was. Right? i She didn’t mean anything to me. I was just like, oh, there’s Jean smart. I had no fucking clue who Adrian Veidt was. I knew nothing. So then fast. So I was like, the whole time. Like, I don’t get it. I don’t get it. This is like kind of cool, but I don’t get it. By the end. I was like, Okay, I get it a little bit. But then I watch. I read the book. And then within about 30 hours of watching the book, I read reading the book, I watched the entire show. And I have to tell you, I fucking love it. I was like, This is awesome. Like, the moment that Jeremy Irons comes come up came on the screen. I was like, is that Adrian fight? Yeah, because Adrian, right. And I was like, oh, because I had like, seen that it was supposed to be like, not a sequel. But I also read after I finished the book that Damon Lindelof said, It’s like watching Godfather two before you watch Godfather one, you can do it but you don’t understand who a lot of people are, like, doesn’t quite make sense. And so watching it after reading the book, like the roar shark mask. I just thought that was like, Oh, these guys are wearing masks, but then I was like, Oh my God, they’re like, they know Rorschach. They love him like he’s their favorite. And like the Dr. Manhattan stuff, like just everything made so much sense. Hooded justice. I had no idea that that was a reference to anything. So the show is a good show. Fine, whatever. It’s a fine television show. If you don’t know anything, but if you know the book, even a one time read through. Yeah, it’s just like, Whoa, that was my feeling. I cried. I think I text you this I cry at the end. When when Dr. Manhattan is going, he’s like, she’s like, where are you right now? And he’s like, I’m in every moment with you. Yah, yah. Yah, do it. Okay, so let’s so now that we’ve expressed our love for the show, let’s dive in. Okay? Damon Lindelof, he’s the guy who I’m saying his name wrong. I don’t know how to say it. What? Damon Lindelof? He is the guy who did Lost and he is the guy who did The Leftovers- two shows. I have not watched them.

David Dennis Jr 13:39
Me neither. I tried both of them.

Traci Thomas 13:41
Not interested. Don’t care. I could care less. However he has been. He’s a white guy. Yeah. Who has been? Who I have heard multiple black men who love comics say, Damon Lindelof made the blackest show ever. And so you know, as a person who thinks a lot about who gets to tell what stories and when and where this one worked. And I know his writers room was full of black people. And all I know it was a very diverse writers room, more diverse than most writers rooms, especially in 2018. But do we feel some type of way about Damon Lindelof being the tour, the greatest thing that ever hit the screen?

David Dennis Jr 14:29
I am okay with the fact that he leaned into his writers room. So from what I understand the the brother who wrote the court, Jefferson was the one who won the Emmy. He’s the one who won the Emmy, he seemed to have done a lot of heavy lifting for the show, writing some of the more sort of pivotal race moments in the show. So there was that and I think that I don’t think this show is one of those instances where it’s like this Joe doesn’t get made by black person, you know, like, nobody lets you because you know, where you’re talking about reimagined like this is like, like watchmen as an institution, right as a Pop Culture Institute, like when Time Magazine did its 20th best books of the 20th century watchmen was the old, like, the only comic book to make it right. Like, this is like redoing Hamlet, and making Hamlet blackish ship with, like, all these, you know, like racial recognition in there. So like, nobody else gets to do it. And for the most part, I think he handled it with as much care of like, like, this is almost like, was what white ally ship looks like, guys, like, you seem to like defer to a lot of the black folks in the writer room in a really productive way. And, you know, we have not heard in the time since then, of any writers, anybody coming out and saying this actually kind of stuff to work on, you know, like, people see him, he seemed to have done whatever it takes for him to have done to have leaned into the, to the help that he got. So, you know, I did feel the way I was like, man is like, Do you know the credit for this thing, but like, I do know that there was like some black folks who leaned into stuff that kind of helps it a little bit.

Traci Thomas 16:05
It’s funny, because, you know, I don’t know if you know this, but like, famously, Damon Lindelof was, at least at the time of making loss, according to a woman named Maureen Ryan, who is writing who wrote a book about it called Burn it down or something. He was a trash human. And so, you know, again, I’m experiencing the book, and then the show through the 2023 lens, really, and so I know this about him. So I like went and listened to a bunch of interviews and everything. And like, I don’t you know, this is a different question, I guess. But it’s like, you know, can we ever rehab? Bad people, right? Like, if he was a monster when he made last? Is he a monster when he makes Watchmen? And from what I’ve heard, it feels like at least he knows how to perform not a monster anymore. Like at least he figured out how to be publicly, like, self deprecating, and, like, gracious to the other people in the room. And like, you know, I think for sure, he’s an asshole for sure. Probably. I mean, yeah. But I think that’s a showrunner on this level. Like a showrunner, who’s at his level, I think. Like, it’s, there’s a lot of bad behavior. But anyways, I do wonder like, do you think it would be different if a black showrunner was given the reins? Like do you think it’s more important that the show runner be black or be obsessed with Watchmen? Or you know what I mean?

David Dennis Jr 17:30
I think it’d be both. I mean, I think there’s a lot of black folks who are obsessed with watchmen who could have could have done it could have done it. You know, I think that there’s a lot of a lot of ways this, this works and that and I mean, the thing that I’m asked you a question about this, because this like sort of leads into my question that I wrestle with, with this show, right? Which, with all this, I have a large issue with vigilante superheroes, like I’ve kind of stopped reading vigilante superhero comic books, for the most part, for a lot of masons basically that they perpetuate a lot of ideas of crime that don’t exist. And I have a lot of issues with that. But here’s the question about Watchmen. Is it propaganda?

Traci Thomas 18:11
Okay, this is a question I have. Who are you rooting for? Yeah, it is propaganda 1,000%. But it also is, well, so Watchmen, the book, to me, is anti cop. Because the cops are so useless, and not a part of it. But Watchmen, the show is pro cop, because all of the superheroes are cops, whereas in the book, the only superheroes who were cops was the comedian, and he was the the obvious jerk. Everyone else was working outside of the law. But in this case, the vigilantes are law enforcement. So for me, I do think this one is propaganda II. Yeah, yeah. But it’s a little bit confusing because Angela, Regina King, she is on the force, but not publicly, but also she doesn’t wear the uniform she wears, like, I still don’t understand why some of them get to wear their uniforms, and some of them don’t.

David Dennis Jr 19:07
Yeah, so I mean, I think what the show does that’s interesting is it just conflates police with vigilantism right. And it just it creates a situation in which there is no separating the two you know, and as police you know, it has an understanding that as police you are also taking the law into your hand just just as much as vigilantes Are you know, and that I think is important part of the conversation but I mean, what’s more pro cop than this idea that these terrible people in the middle of the night are going to come into your house and like shoot you and shoot your kids like that is like a blue lives matter as fear right are propagating thing is that that there are these villains who will do this and will try to take us down, right? So it was it is a complicated watch when you watch back on it, because it’s like, man, there’s a lot of like cop stuff, but then As the Chief of Police is like, has claimed memorabilia in his in his place, you know and so

Traci Thomas 20:06
right it’s which tracks with the police, right? Yeah

David Dennis Jr 20:08
so it is it is complicated it is a complicated sort of idea of what propaganda is, but at the heart of it, the protagonist is a cop.

Traci Thomas 20:18
Yes. And I feel like you know, the cops wearing masks makes it feel more kapa Gan te because they’re wearing them like for their own protection because they’re so vulnerable. Like there’s this sort of like pathetic nature about the police that like they that like they’re not able to do enough, but then they still do cop shit like, Okay, we’re gonna authorize like 48 hours, we can just go fuck shit up for funsies and like, that’s like some really the fact that you’re like rooting for them to authorize that vote is very, not great. Yeah. Yeah, because but also like, in today’s world, vigilantes, basically are the police. Like, yeah, like, you know, I’m thinking of George Zimmerman, famously, or Kyle Rittenhouse, or like these people who after they murder black people are embraced into the cop culture. Yeah. However, I guess it’s the opposite on the show, because the cops are well, no, no, they’re still friends with the white supremacist.

David Dennis Jr 21:29
Well, the thing is, the thing is, is that that what I do enjoy about the meta commentary of it is that when you talk about vigilantes and superheroes, you talk about like losers wearing costumes, like putting on spandex costumes. And in here the cops are the losers because there is also a part of this in which cops are like the the superhero costume that you never grow out of as a police uniform in a lot of different ways. Right? You know, like, right, right? Right. You know, like, you look at somebody like, um, be Spider Man, you were in this thing and but like the cop uniform is the closest you get to that. And so part of these people want to be police, they can wear these masks, and go out and be the act like to be as close as they can be to the actual superheroes that they did literally grow up idolizing, right, like they lived in a world where superheroes and they can’t be a superhero. So I’m going to be a cop. And I’m going to wear a mask over my face. And like, you know, be part of this, this thing, which is very true to the cow ridden houses and all these people in the world who are like, I can’t work. My costume was a whole bunch of guns, and a whole bunch of like Blue Lives Matter. And all lives matter stuff. And I’m gonna go and kill people like it’s this, like it conflates that in a very sort of interesting way.

Traci Thomas 22:41
Yeah. And I feel like also the superheroes in this one, the people who wear costumes, not cop costumes are also like, sort of pathetic. Yeah. Like, their costumes are like dingy and gross, except for Angela. She’s like badass. But like, mirror boy is, you know, it’s kind of sad. And like, the panda is very dirty. And like they have sort of grown out of this stuff.

David Dennis Jr 23:11
And the panda like is the Secretary like he’s whereas a panda thing. And he just takes the minutes at the meeting.

Traci Thomas 23:17
What a minutes. But do we How come they get to wear the costumes? I didn’t understand that connection. Like why only some of them are in their superhero costumes. Everyone else is a cop. Do you Do you know?

David Dennis Jr 23:29
I’m not totally sure I so I think that they just like, well, Angela, I think sort of works outside of the police. You know, so she’s like a freelance police. So she’s like, the real vigilante there.

Traci Thomas 23:41
So maybe they’re all like that. Yeah. Oh, I Oh, wait, no, I do know what it is. I know what it is. They were police. Then the white knight happens. And so they let them they they tell they’re off the force because they’ve been exposed. So they have to do the vigilante in their costumes, because they’re technically not pull. Yeah, yeah, that’s yeah. Like that. Yeah. What do we feel about the masks? That’s like a big central thing in the show is like, why do people wear masks? And Laurie has a feeling and then we’ll Grandpa will has a feeling and what do you think?

David Dennis Jr 24:16
So I think that the I like so when watchmen came out. It was a really sort of interesting idea of mass, right? And who and what does this actually mean like it? So right when Washington came out mid 80s was like, sort of also coincided with Frank Miller sort of reimagining Batman, right. And it basically sort of became this idea of like, what do we know as Batman? Is Batman? Is Bruce Wayne pretending to be our is? Yeah, Bruce Wayne, and he’s, you know, pretends to be Batman, right? But the idea is actually that Batman is the guy and he’s pretend to be Bruce Wayne the whole time, right? And so it’s basically the guy who goes out at night, and like, beats up poor people, and like is all about vengeance. is the actual who he is. But during the day, he just pretends to be like Kim Kardashian. Right? And so, I think watchmen does a lot of playing around with that idea of what’s the actual person, right? Is Clark Kent? The, you know, everybody’s like Clark Kent, the guy and Superman is who you know, but no, he’s actually suit. He’s actually an alien who lands on Earth and has nothing to do with humans. And then he pretends to be the human, you know? And so, the idea so, you know, watchmen at its heart and in the show also plays into who like, what is the actual human being like, what’s the actual person like, Who are you actually? And who is the is the superhero who you are? Or is it you know, who you are behind the mask, right? And, you know, Rorschach was like that Rorschach talks to himself and like a maniac. And all that stuff goes around and like pretends to, like hold his like sandwich board in the middle of night, you know?

Traci Thomas 25:53
Right. But in the show, and in the book, the only per air quote person with superpowers is document hands. The rest of them are humans with costumes, right? Yeah. So they’re not, I guess, Oh, I see. Because Batman also doesn’t have superpowers. Right. Batman is just rich. Right? I see. Hmm. That’s interesting.

David Dennis Jr 26:24
And document had also wears no mask. Well, until he, yeah, tell he becomes like a black guy.

Traci Thomas 26:32
He becomes a black guy that I love.

David Dennis Jr 26:36
You know, like, when I was doing the rewatched you know, rewatching to get ready for the pod. I was like, Yeah, that’s good looking man. Oh, like I remember the first I was like, I remember the fuss about it. And then I was like, saw I was like, oh, yeah, that’s why everybody was going crazy. I was was stealing the scenes, man.

Traci Thomas 26:58
But remember the scene where she’s like, Okay, we have to like get a body for you. She like opens all the like, more drawers. random person, random person. And then it’s like, and then there’s this guy. And I’m like, the hottest man ever. Like you gave him these three other options you like I’d be fine with any of that. But then you’re like, well, here’s this fourth option. A gorgeous human being

David Dennis Jr 27:22
Oh, she was soft launching the black guy. She was like she was she was very timid about like, Hey, watch Trump being a black dude. And then

Traci Thomas 27:30
he’s like, is there anyone else? Well, this guy. Um, he will censor on Dr. Manhattan. In the book. And we talked about this on the episode withdrawal. You know, in the book, there’s this line that’s like, God is American or whatever I can remember. It’s like, What’s the fucking line? You don’t know? I can remember anyways, there’s a line that’s like, God is alive and he’s American or something. Okay. But in the show, God is alive. But he’s my I don’t know. I don’t have a question. But it does something to me that Dr. Manhattan is a black guy,

David Dennis Jr 28:24
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s a black guy. And he does not know that. He’s black, you know, or does not know that he’s Dr. Manhattan. And it is buried deep and deep inside of him. There’s this meta metaphor of like, you are, you know, the god is inside you. But also, like, he is tethered and that identity is tethered and needs to be awakened by his black woman partner. You know, and there’s there’s something sort of you know, symbiotic beautiful connective about that piece of, you know, that piece of the story. Like they’re like, this is a love story like that. Watchmen. The comic has no love in it whatsoever. Except for Laurie and Dan, Lori and Dan, whichever. Damn, loser.

Traci Thomas 29:18
A big fucking I can’t stand them.

David Dennis Jr 29:20
Dan sucks. But um, yeah, so there is that there’s that and the the awakening the real i The the realization from Dr. Manhattan of like, like him becoming document head and at the end was like, that moves me almost to tears as much as like the lovey dovey stuff did like just this, this moment of him realizing who he was. And, you know, I kind of figured that when the like, when the guy didn’t shoot, like when she survived the white knight. I was like, I might be documented.

Traci Thomas 29:51
Oh, interesting. So you had a sense?

David Dennis Jr 29:53
I had a sense. I thought it was either him or the kid. At first. I thought it might have been the kid. But then I was like, Hey, okay, no, so Yeah.

Traci Thomas 30:00
I see you thought the kid might have been Dr. Manhattan. Yeah, yeah. Okay, that’s good. Okay, so I can’t take credit for this because someone smart said it to me on a podcast I think. But someone people, but they said that love turns out to be Dr. Manhattan’s kryptonite if you will. Okay. Do you think this is a podcast or saying this? So? Bear with me it wasn’t like it wasn’t Damon Lindelof? I don’t think. I don’t know. I found that interesting. Because I feel like as you mentioned, in the first book, it’s pretty much void of love. Like he has these relationships with Sally and Laurie or whatever, but like, it’s very feels very sexual. Like she’s 16 and hot. And I’m into that. And then he meets Angela. And he’s willing to throw it all away. And then it’s the end of fucking Dr. Manhattan.

David Dennis Jr 30:58
Yeah. I think Angela was like his first love.

Traci Thomas 31:03
Yeah, and that’s why he dies immediately after.

David Dennis Jr 31:05
Yeah, that was his first I don’t know if it was his kryptonite, but it just like, I mean, it gave him I mean, I think it’s, he gave him something to like die for, you know, that like he just like, what’s the point is, like, on Mars just fed up with everybody. He’s just like, I’m out of here sucks. And it gave him a little something to die for. And I think like, that’s, I don’t know if it was his kryptonite, because I feel like the Dr. Manhattan, that Angela experience was, like, more alive than the document hadn’t that we’d seen previously. You know, like, this was him finally, becoming something like he was just so void of anything, you know, like, now he’s like, gave him something worthwhile.

Traci Thomas 31:50
Do you feel like you understand why Angela likes Dr. Manhattan? Because for me, that was hard. Because he’s sort of a dud.

David Dennis Jr 31:59
Yeah, I was sort of like, I didn’t quite, I didn’t. It was weird. It almost felt like he just saw it. And that’s just what happened was a huge, like a fallen lover. And that’s just what it is. Yeah. That Dr. Manhattan thing was such a hard needle to thread for them. You know, I mean, I can’t I would love to imagine I would love to have sat in the writers room while they’re figuring out how to do this with Dr. Manhattan. You know, like, it’s like, we have this all knowing being, it’s going to fall in love with the black woman. We’re going to turn him into a black guy. He’s going to be the you know, like that. thing was the was the like the, it was like, it was messy. Like I like to me, one of the reason I like watchmen is because it was messy. It wasn’t like I like messy art. I like art that sort of like, you can tell that they were trying to figure it out. It’s not all clean. Not everything makes like perfect sense. And it was kind of like the document hands that was kind of messing this really, really cool way. You know,

Traci Thomas 32:54
right? No, I agree with that. I definitely think it was messy. Okay, this was sort of my earlier question. Who were you rooting for? As you were watching the show? I mean, for me, obviously, you start and you’re rooting for Angela. But there was a point where I was not rooting for Angela?

David Dennis Jr 33:11
Yeah. Um, I was rooting for my old man. I was rooting for oh, well, well, I mean, I was rooting for well, because like it to me, it was like, immediately when you saw him, I was like, oh, that’s the kid from Tulsa. You know? And he’s Superman. It doesn’t sound like he’s Superman. And so it’s like it got it. You got to hit like when you start a story with the person’s origin story. That’s the hero. You know, that’s the hero of the story. And so I felt like, you know, like, when you watch all those, like millions of stupid Batman movies, they always start with his parents getting killed you I just pay I’ve seen Batman’s parents get killed 20 times on.

Traci Thomas 33:54
I’ve never seen a Batman before. So oh, they’re not really great. I didn’t tell you this. I always tell people this. I’ve only seen three superhero things. Watchmen is one, okay. The Incredibles is two and the first. The first Black Panther is the third. So that’s it.

David Dennis Jr 34:11
It isn’t a second black panther. No. Okay. All right. Okay,

Traci Thomas 34:16
I just gave you the entire list. I didn’t leave anything off. That’s the whole list. I have read one comic book. It’s called Watchmen. Last week, so I am about as noob as you got to come to this stuff, so I’ve never seen a Batman I’ve never seen the Heath Ledger I’ve never seen Okay, Christopher Reeve. Superman. I’ve not done it.

David Dennis Jr 34:38
Okay, I gotcha. It’s all good. It’s all good. We work with so

Traci Thomas 34:43
baby baby steps. Yeah. So Vinci?

David Dennis Jr 34:47
Yeah, so will will, to me was the hero. You know, like when I first saw I was like, Oh, this guy’s the hero. He’s got some going on. And then he had the full backstory, the full backstory about halfway through the through the season. And so I was rude. I found myself rooting for him?

Traci Thomas 35:00
Do you feel like he won in the end?

David Dennis Jr 35:04
Um, no. I feel like I feel like Angela won. Obviously she’s like, new Dr. Manhattan.

Traci Thomas 35:13
Potentially we don’t know for sure.

David Dennis Jr 35:14
Yeah, she’s new document.

Traci Thomas 35:16
We don’t know. It was a not AG. Yeah. Drink that last egg and just was gonna go swimming. Yeah. Off she goes. Yeah. Interesting.

David Dennis Jr 35:26
Yeah, I was rooting that towards the end I was rooting for her and new document hat and to work it out. So

Traci Thomas 35:36
I feel that the seventh Calvary somehow one, unfortunately, as these things go, because even though the old people were killed, and Senator Keane was killed, I sort of feel like there’s a lot of those guys still out there. And we know how white supremacy works. And it’s just a vacuum waiting to be filled. And I sort of feel like it didn’t you know, I mean, I don’t again, I’ve never seen a superhero thing, but it definitely feels like those guys are coming back wider than ever, you know?

David Dennis Jr 36:12
Yes. That feels like it feels like they might be but they’re not going to be document Hatton, man, document. Document, huh? And it’s not on document hands, Angela. Okay, she’s gonna snap her fingers. They’re gonna. I mean, do you can’t you can’t ever get rid of the villains man. They’re gonna be there, you know?

Traci Thomas 36:32
Oh, the villains are the whites. I see. Yeah, I thought you were saying Dr. Manhattan was the villain. I was Dr. Manhattan. No,

David Dennis Jr 36:38
they’re the they’re the icon. Yeah. Especially considering that like the villain one at the end of the comic book, you know? And so now,

Traci Thomas 36:49
the villain who want at the end of the comic book,

David Dennis Jr 36:52
fight as the man is one end.

Traci Thomas 36:54
Do you think that he’s the villain of the comic book? Yeah,

David Dennis Jr 36:58
he dropped the squid.

Traci Thomas 36:59
So who’s the hero of the comic book?

David Dennis Jr 37:02
Um, I don’t I don’t I don’t feel like there’s a single hero like I mean, maybe Dan. Weird as so sad. Maybe? Oh, yeah, impotent. Weird. Dan is the hero.

Traci Thomas 37:19
Do we think that roar shark is the villain to

David Dennis Jr 37:23
know I love rowshare He’s just like, he’s

Traci Thomas 37:26
fascist. That’s what I’m telling you. If you live for shock, you’re a fascist. Yeah,

David Dennis Jr 37:30
Rorschach was just chaos. Like he’s basically guy from crime and punishment. You know? Like he’s just like this chaotic guy with a clear mental health issues. Who beats up people and you know, just and he’s a he’s a prison abolitionist. Come on now. Is he? Well, he broke

Traci Thomas 37:53
when he was incarcerated. Lock everybody else up.

David Dennis Jr 37:57
Yeah, you gotta pick out to put everybody else jail. prison abolitionist for himself a little bit. He’s Yeah, everybody ever. You got to meet people where they are, man.

Traci Thomas 38:04
Yeah, it’s a personal journey for him. i Well, I mean, I think it’s interesting, because in the book, I was rooting for Wireshark. Until I was like, Oh, I don’t think I’m supposed to root for this guy. But he again is the person we start with, like you were saying, so he felt like I’m supposed to ride with him. Yeah. But I don’t think that Adrian fight is the villain. We killed 4 million people to save the world.

David Dennis Jr 38:30
Yeah, but yeah, I told you I have issues with the ending of that. of Watchmen. I didn’t talk about it. Because as we learn from COVID, nothing is going to unite the world. Like they dropped a squid, it killed 4 million people. The idea is like, Oh, the world will come together and fight this alien thing. But what we’ve learned is that the world would probably be like, ah, people gotta go to work. We gotta make money. Did you

Traci Thomas 38:57
did COVID Change the way you felt about the ending? Or did you always have skepticism about the ending?

David Dennis Jr 39:03
I was always skeptical of this idea of the world uniting over a common cause. Like it worked in Independence Day. Because

Traci Thomas 39:15
that’s Will Smith. That Will Smith. Yeah, we’re not just anybody.

David Dennis Jr 39:19
Yeah, I would rather behind Will Smith, who would you know? But yeah, like, the idea that I mean, because like, the squid was just like, you know, a one time thing, right? And so I feel like, yeah, COVID definitely impact because I feel like five months in they’d be like, when you see the squid and five months, like, right, get back to it, you know, like, go sweep up the day to New York. And like, you know, we got to know what no more work from home, like go

Traci Thomas 39:48
and do it. Right. And I feel like that’s why they have Adrian fight dropping the randomised squids on the cities because it keeps them unified or whatever, but even In the show, he the squid does avoid nuclear war in the world of the show, so it is somewhat successful because that’s what he was trying to avoid. It does not unify and create world peace and harmony. But he accomplished his goal. There is no nuclear war. I don’t know. I just don’t think that Adrian Veidt is the villain. But I might be. I think he sucks, but I think they all suck, which is sort of the point except for Laurie. Laurie is the only character in the entire thing that is good to me. Yeah. She not the hero because you’re not rooting for her. But she’s the only one where you’re like, I talked with Laurie all the way through. I don’t ever have a problem with Laurie. Yeah,

David Dennis Jr 40:47
she was yeah, she you know,

Traci Thomas 40:49
except for that she becomes a fucking FBI. But other than that, I don’t problem.

David Dennis Jr 40:53
Yeah. She becomes like, she becomes like the worst. And right. And the show

Traci Thomas 40:57
she becomes like her dad in the show, not his personality, but she follows in his footsteps of like working for the government.

David Dennis Jr 41:04
Yeah. So she becomes him. And she, I mean, she’s clearly. I mean, I do say she sucks in the show. But like, obviously, she came from like this really intense childhood trauma. And she’s still working through it. And she was in love with this. Like, she was in love with God. And like, you know, there’s all that complicated nature of all that that she’s working through. And, you know, yeah, she works with the government, but also like, the guy she captured, the little fake Batman doing sound seemed like, goober, he seemed like somebody who need to be in jail, too. So yeah, I mean, I think in the books, she is the hero, I guess, you know. And in the show. It’s just the fallout of all the terrible stuff that’s happened to her.

Traci Thomas 41:47
Yeah. Do you have a favorite episode of the series?

David Dennis Jr 41:53
Who did justice backstory episode, I think was episode six or something. Just like, I mean, come on, man. You know, like, I think I mean, that’s what you won the Emmy for? That’s like the story. I mean, I think I’m like the meta, or like, the way that they turn the show and to you know, the book the watch, no, watchmen was a metal, there was books inside the book. And they did the same thing with the show. You created this whole nother hero, this whole nother ethos around some that had been established. And, again, gave Well, the story like to me that I mean, it really does not get in terms of superhero. On TV or movie, medium, it really doesn’t get better than that for like an hour.

Traci Thomas 42:41
So again, I did not know where that episode was going, even after reading the book. But when they reveal that he’s had a justice, I gasped, I was like, Oh, my God, I was audibly alone to myself. I made like an audible sound. I think. I think what’s so great about will Being hooded justice. And I think this is like pretty obvious. I know, other people have talked about this, but it’s like, he has an actual reason to wear a mask. Like it’s a practical safety issue. Now, again, we have this propaganda stuff, because he’s doing it as a good old policeman, right? Obviously, his fellow policemen scare the shit out of him by coming to the edge of a full on lunging, and giving you a botched lynching, if you will purposefully botched lynching. But I feel like his reason for wearing a mask is the best we’ve ever seen. And I love that in the show within the show. It’s like a white guy is here to justice. And I love this idea that even still, people couldn’t fathom that a black guy could be the greatest hero of all time. Yeah, I think what’s great,

David Dennis Jr 44:15
but isn’t that sort of how things are like when as black folks who are like,

Traci Thomas 44:19
yes, we invent everything. Yeah, and then fucking white people take credit for it and become It’s Elvis. It’s the Beatles. It’s all that shit.

David Dennis Jr 44:29
But like, even even beyond that, is that black folks do things out of necessity. Right? And white folks commodify it for their own like they they cosplay. Right? You know, like that black folks go out there and say, we’re going to create music genres, and we’re going to do these things to break out of economic, whatever, and we’re gonna, you know, have these things that we have to do, right. And then this country is like, cool. That looks awesome. I’m I’m gonna do it for fun, you know? And it’s like, well, you know that that feels like a very real part of that. Also, as we’re talking about this one of the Jesse Smollett thing happened, because that didn’t happen after the

Traci Thomas 45:18
no before the show, January 2019. Oh, okay. All right. I think Well, no. Yeah, February, February is when it happened. January is when he approached his brothers, the Nigerian brothers.

David Dennis Jr 45:30
I was, as you were taught as we were going through that, I’m just like, oh, yeah, he too, or the news? To commemorate the bad thing that happened? Right? That’s neither here nor there.

Traci Thomas 45:43
Yeah, you’re right. You’re right about this, like, out of necessity. And then like people being like, This is so fun. Yeah. Yeah. I also feel like in the book, when I saw hooded justice costume, I was like, That noose? Feels a bit much. Yeah. And then in the show, like, they like make it make sense. And you’re like, Yeah, wow, there’s so many parts of the show that I felt like made the book make more sense and made me more excited about the book. And I think that’s obviously because I read the book when I read it, and, and I had no exposure to it previously. So I think like, I was I needed that writers room to help me make sense of the book. And I think that the show did that for me in a way that like, you haven’t probably read the book many times and read things about the book and stuff had that previously. But from your watchman book, knowledge, do you feel like hooded justice was ever addressed in a way that made the news makes sense? Like did it ever did you ever think you possibly would be black? I know his eyes are white.

David Dennis Jr 46:53
Yeah, no, absolutely not. That was never the never know, so much of this stuff. Like, like, there’s no black characters in the book. Like there’s like this

Traci Thomas 47:02
one, the little kid? There’s two. Yeah. The kid and the law. The therapist for Rorschach. Yeah,

David Dennis Jr 47:09
like those are the two and but there are no black superheroes. Right. Right. And there. And what’s interesting, as you’re as we’re talking about this, I’m also reminded that as this show was coming out, DC Comics had put out a watchmen sequel. Oh, that was sort of like integrating watchmen into the Superman and Batman world. And what was really fascinating about it, is that these were happening at the same time. And the comic book was whitest shit. And so I read this, I was really excited about the comic book because it was just like, Okay, this would be cool. I was I was actually more excited for the combos and I was for the show. Because like, oh, one of the famous writers of, of, I can’t, I can’t forget, remember his name. He wrote Green Lantern, he started reading Green Lantern, and he’s, like, one of the masterminds behind the DC movies, or whatever, was writing it, and it was gonna be real cool. And it’s gonna be like, Oh, we’re gonna see the Watchmen, we’re going to see just that you’re going to see them in the same world. And comparatively to the show, there’s no imagination there. Right? There’s no, because the show deconstructs the comic book with these things, like with the news, and with the idea of who gets to be the superhero who gets to tell these stories and like, tears this piece of work apart and, and put together in a whole new way. And this comic book comes out. And it’s just like, No, we’re just going to enjoy these white characters and the white superheroes just like imagine what what happens and I don’t know I just I just remember that. Like, that’s just like a zombie game.

Traci Thomas 48:52
Yeah. Interesting. And hooded justice is supposed to be Superman. Is that like, because you said this? You said watchmen is like a Superman origin story. Like is that something that I’m supposed to understand? Yeah, so

David Dennis Jr 49:03
we’ll story is the suit they re did the Superman story in Tulsa. Right. So, um,

Traci Thomas 49:11
but Superman is hooded justice is what you’re saying? Sorta. Yeah. So Superman,

David Dennis Jr 49:15
it will. So I don’t actually think that there’s a direct parallel for Superman here because hooded justice is also kind of like a I mean, he’s like a real darker version of Superman, right? But he is the archetypal hero. He’s the first guy. So I see. Yeah, so he is the first

Traci Thomas 49:37
Superman Superman is the first superhero in the lore sort

David Dennis Jr 49:41
of Yeah, like Superman is the archetypal superhero right? But not they Frank they do frame will as Superman by putting him in the in the container and having him flee. Just like Superman fled Krypton, are we you’re looking like Okay, so, so Alright, so this is so I know familia okay so this is why this is why the will tell us the thing is so brilliant right so Superman origin story for those who do not know, Superman is alien right born on the planet Krypton. Right? So he’s on this planet Krypton. Tell me if none of this is regular.

Traci Thomas 50:15
This sounds familiar. Okay, because I know kryptonite is so.

David Dennis Jr 50:20
So he’s on this planet. He’s from crypto is on Krypton. And krypton is basically what on earth is going to be in 30 years, it’s like falling apart is becoming uninhabitable. There’s a it’s going to be destroyed. And his parents were like trying to warn everybody like, krypton is going to be destroyed, it’s going to blow up, right. And so they put their baby in a pot, right as krypton is, is being destroyed, and they ship him off to a planet that feels inhabitable. That’ll be good for him, and he lands crash lands on Earth. And that’s the Superman origin story. Right? He gets discovered by this family he’s has these powers and that Superman, right. So what this show did so brilliantly, which is why I love the beginning of it is they retold that story in Tulsa. Right? So Tulsa is going through its own Armageddon, white, you know, white power, just right, why didn’t do a storm again, they’re destroying everything. And his parents, Will’s parents put him in a pot, that sends him somewhere else. And instead of him being discovered, he discovers a baby while he’s out there. So it sort of flips on so that when that happens, like, Oh, this is the origin story of the superhero, right? And so when you when you when you see will for the first time, he’s always wearing red and blue, like he’s wearing the red vest and the blue shirt. So he’s dressed like Superman, at the very beginning when you see him, and he’s saying, Can I lift 200 pounds or which is like, you know, are you stronger than a locomotive? Are you faster than you know? So he’s sort of doing these superhero things so that the show starts off by rewriting the most archetypal superhero of all time and making him a black man that’s playing Tulsa right. And so then there parallel becomes the hood of justice was the sort of archetypal superhero of the watchmen universe. So he’s not directly parallel. Superman doesn’t have the same powers. Document hat and I would say one more Superman historic powers, but in terms of being the first guy they made, we’ll see. I see.

Traci Thomas 52:27
Okay, this helps. We’re running out of time. I’m doing a hard jump cut. Aggressive Change of subject. Dr. True. We didn’t even talk about Yeah. What did you think about all that stuff, the nostalgia. Her her science being the child of Adrian byte, the smartest man in the world, She’s the smartest woman in the world. She’s smarter than him. Women are better than men. What did you think? Did it work for you A Bridge Too Far? Not enough.

David Dennis Jr 53:01
So I thought I was very good at the origin story when they went back and told her origin story. That threw me off where she just was some random person who used I had thought the whole time that she was like that Dr. Manhattan had brought back the child that the comedian killed.

Traci Thomas 53:24
Oh, from the one from the one he held, he scratched his face. Yeah, yeah. So the

David Dennis Jr 53:31
whole time I was like, that’s what that is. I was like Dr. Manhattan, brought her back, maybe gave her some powers maybe made or something like that. And so that story, that random story was like, what? Like, that threw me off. I thought that, um, I know that there was some complaints and some issues about like, Asian stereotypes that were not necessarily addressed in the proper way with that. Yeah, that threw me for a loop. I was totally not like when I was so convinced that she was the child of the of the woman so that was a that was really, like really threw me off. Like that was sort of my first thing was like, that’s a really random way to tell that story when you kind of have

Traci Thomas 54:10
a built in have an origin story. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. never crossed my mind. I didn’t care for it. I thought it was a little bit too much for me. Personally, that was like my least favorite part of it. I know. We needed her for the technology to like, get everybody back in one place. I did love the idea of taking nostalgia pills. I thought that was so great, because I do feel like nostalgia. Is this like very toxic? thing? Yeah. Generally, especially American nostalgia, and by American I mean, white American nostalgia for this like, you know if you could go back to any time period, where would you go? Oh my god. I go to 1860s Mississippi so I could wear a ball. Yeah, like bitch was my thing. So like I did like that sort of like, I liked the idea of nostalgia. I like how they use the nostalgia, but I didn’t care for the true character, and like the way that she was portrayed and sort of like how it all worked, though I liked that actress quite a bit. I thought she was fantastic. Yeah, she was incredible. Yeah. Like, she did a great job with what she was given. I just, that is to me, like the most clunky part of the story. And I think that’s like the messy part that you’re talking about. They didn’t quite figure everything out. And I like I agree with you. I often, especially with books, like if a book is just pushed too far, even if it’s not perfect. I really like like, that’s how I felt about changing all stars. You know, I was like, I think that Nona was trying to do I think the metaphor I use was like he is Simone Biles, he’s trying to do four fives everyone else is trying to do three. So if he doesn’t stick the landing, I’m still like, you flipped four times. And they did two and a half. Like fuck that. You know? So I feel like a little bit about like the doctor true stuff that that’s how I felt. We’re like so running out of time. I want to just ask you one quick thing. Do you know anything about the musical Oklahoma?

David Dennis Jr 56:18
No, not really. You know, I did some I did a little bit when I was like trying to find like hints and shit. I was like doing a little bit but I Not really.

Traci Thomas 56:28
So I do.

David Dennis Jr 56:30
Give it to me. I did fine. I did five minutes on the origin of Superman. You go for Oklahoma, go for it.

Traci Thomas 56:36
So here’s what I liked about it. I don’t have an answer. But the show starts with them seeing black Oklahoma, which is a very interesting like turn on Oklahoma because Oklahoma is an extremely KZN show rockers and Hammerstein. It’s like their first big musical to show that I love very weird white guy, hero, curly, white guy villain Judd, the chief of police. His name is Judd. And I am in there sitting at the table and he’s doing cocaine and he starts singing. People will say we’re in love. I was like, it’s interesting. Judd doesn’t sing the song in the show. Just a quick clock because that’s where my brain anybody named John I instantly think of John Frey. Anyways, the episode ends with police chief Judd, this is the first episode hanging from a tree. And they play they play poor Judd is dead, which is the song that currently sings to Judd when he’s imagining he basically tell in the show, he tells Judd if you kill yourself, then people will feel bad for you. And the lay flowers at your origin is dead a candlelight said it’s it’s very fucked up scene. But then you fast forward to the end of the show. And the last song of the Watchmen, the last song is the first song of Oklahoma, which is Oh, what a beautiful morning. And it’s like this song about like all the beauty of Oklahoma and like the world isn’t right out in front of you. And I just thought that was a really interesting juxtaposition. Because that’s not how I felt at the end, I again felt like the cavalry is coming again. And no one is safe, and the town is all fucked up, and all of that. But also, there are three characters in the show that are named after characters in the musical. There’s Laurie, which is the lead woman character, there’s John who’s the villain and then there’s will who’s the comic relief I don’t know if they like named Will, because doesn’t they don’t all fit together, I just thought was really interesting, that they’re all names from Oklahoma. And I feel like there’s like probably more there. But I definitely think like, obviously takes place in Oklahoma as it’s like becoming a state. And there’s like a lot of stuff about like, who owns this land? Who space is this? We’re gonna take this land, and like a lot of a lot of like that stuff that fits in with Watchmen. So I would love to hear someone who worked on the show talk about how much or how little, they used Oklahoma, because there’s like, definitely parallels. And I did listen to a podcast, which I’ll link to that had Juliet Lippmann, who I love who dispatcher pod talking about watchmen and the new there was a new musical of Oklahoma that came out in 2019. That was like stripped down, they had like, they like made it more modern. Anyways, I don’t have like a full thesis like you did on Superman. But there’s something there. And I want to I want to talk to Damon Lindelof about Rodgers and Hammerstein.

David Dennis Jr 59:28
Yeah. Let’s do it. Let’s get him on. Come on. Yeah, give him a ring.

Traci Thomas 59:33
Okay, we’re out of time. So I don’t think we got up to everything but I think we did good. Is there anything else that you wanted to say or ask or do

David Dennis Jr 59:44
in life or just about watchmen or what?

Traci Thomas 59:47
Well, I know I mean, yes, in life. No, in in this conversation. Was there anything else that we didn’t touch on that you felt like needed to be brought up?

David Dennis Jr 59:56
Um, I think we got I think we’ve got to most of it. I mean, there was There’s obviously so much vite stuff that is like weird stuff that was happening with him that

Traci Thomas 1:00:06
we didn’t get to any really any bite. Yeah.

David Dennis Jr 1:00:10
Which was masterfully played, by the way, in the most creepy way possibly

Traci Thomas 1:00:14
did it so yeah, they I feel like they really expanded him out in a way that was fantastic. And Jeremy Irons is so good when he gets to the scene where he’s like, nobody even knew it was me and like he’s like getting emotional. Yeah, come on acting come on top tier actor. Yes indeed. So good.

David Dennis Jr 1:00:32
Yeah, we’re gonna get you to do some more and that’s a more common voice we’re gonna get you we’re gonna get you’re doing some more of these things. We’re gonna get we’re gonna do some top 10 I’ll we’re gonna do some far-

Traci Thomas 1:00:39

David Dennis Jr 1:00:40
Yeah, we got you. We got you.

Traci Thomas 1:00:42
But I need it. It has to be social commentary. It can’t just be superhero for superhero state state. Yeah, I gotta be like the big kid stuff because I I’ve aged out of a lot of the entry level stuff I think like it’s gotta be more not that not that they’re not but you know, some things are like easier. Yeah. And I’m too old and jaded for that at this point. So it’s got to be like a little on the darker side. Not too dark though. I don’t you know that.

David Dennis Jr 1:01:12
I guess. I guess we got the vibes Yeah.

Traci Thomas 1:01:15
All right, everybody. We’re getting out of here. This was your unabridged episode for the month of July. David Dennis Jr. Author of made us you should definitely if you haven’t read the book yet. You should fucking read the book you guys I’ve been trying to tell you it’s on paperback now should listen to rap stories. You should watch David on television when he’s on ESPN doing a pardon the interruption and you should watch the show if you haven’t watched the show yet. But if you got this far and you haven’t watched Watchmen-

David Dennis Jr 1:01:46
We really spoiled everything for you.

Traci Thomas 1:01:48
Yeah, we sure did. But David, thank you for doing this. Thank you for being a sport about Superman. Everybody else, we will see you in the stacks.

Connect with David: Instagram | Twitter
Connect with The Stacks: Instagram | Twitter | Shop | Patreon | Goodreads | Subscribe

To contribute to The Stacks, join The Stacks Pack, and get exclusive perks, check out our Patreon page. If you prefer to support the show with a one time contribution go to paypal.me/thestackspod.

The Stacks participates in affiliate programs. We receive a small commission when products are purchased through links on this website, and this comes at no cost to you. This in no way effects opinions on books and products reviewed here. For more information click here.