Ep. 284 Romance and Politics with Stacey Abrams – Transcript

Esteemed politician, activist and author Stacey Abrams joins us to discuss her thriller-suspense-romance novel The Art of Desire, written under her pen name Selena Montgomery. We learn where her pseudonym came from and why she chose to re-release the book. We also talk about how Stacey’s political life is influenced by her creative life and vice versa, what comes next for her and how romance writing has changed in the last 20 years.

The Stacks Book Club selection for September is Monsters: A Fan’s Dilemma by Claire Dederer. We will discuss the book on September 27th with Brittany Luse.


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Captured at Private Home in Atlanta, Georgia by Kevin Lowery

Traci Thomas 0:08
Welcome to the stacks a podcast about books and the people who read them. I’m your host Traci Thomas and today I am beyond excited and honored to welcome to The Stacks the one and only Stacey Abrams. Stacey Abrams is the former Minority Leader of the Georgia House of Representatives. Stacy is also a highly esteemed politician, lawyer, activist and author. She just rereleased her 2001 novel The Art of Desire, which is written under her pen name Selena Montgomery. The Art of Desire is a suspense thriller romance novel centered around a lovely but jaded maid of honor as she faces fresh temptations and imminent danger. It was such an honor to talk with Stacey Abrams about pen names, romance audiences and the ways that she feels her work as an author has made her a better politician. Don’t forget our September book club pick is Monsters: A Fan’s Dilemma by Claire Dederer, which we will discuss with Brittany Luse on September 27th. Everything we talked about on today’s episode of The Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you like what you hear today, and you want more of it, join the stacks pack at patreon.com/the stacks. It’s just $5 a month and it supports this black woman run independent podcast. And when you join, you get a bunch of perks like our Discord channel, which is a total joy bonus episodes including audio from our tour stops and our monthly book club meetup which is full of hot takes and observant insights. So if you love the snacks, join the stacks pack because without folks like you, there is no way that I could make this podcast every single week to join head to patreon.com/the stacks. And here’s a shout out to our newest members of the stacks pack. Holly Barker, Kathleen Flaherty, Carla Benton, Christine, Anders, and Treme. Boris, thank you all so much for joining us tax pack and thank you to the entire stacks pack for being wonderful, bookish humans. Okay, now it is time for my conversation with Stacey Abrams.

All right, everyone, I am beyond thrilled to welcome our guests today. It is Stacey Abrams. You may know her as a politician. You may know her as a author, you may know her from her work in voter registration. You may know her from a million things, honestly. Stacy, welcome to the Stacks.

Stacey Abrams 2:29
Traci, thank you for having me.

Traci Thomas 2:31
I know we have a little rhyming name moment going here, which I love. For people who don’t know your brand new book. Well, I guess it’s a relaunch of a book from 2001. It’s called The Art of Desire. You’re relaunching it. It was originally published in your pen name Selena Montgomery, it is now in both of your names. But for people who don’t know anything about the book and about 30 seconds, will you just tell us a little bit about it.

Stacey Abrams 2:56
So the Art of Desire is the story of Alex Walton, who is trying to figure out what to do with herself. She’s got a few different divergent interests, and is a bit confused about the direction her life is going to take when she runs into the best man at the wedding where she will be maid of honor. He is trying to reset his life after a little bit of a detour when he was held captive. And so they find themselves caught up in intrigue and passion and romance. And it’s one of the most fun books ever got a chance to write.

Traci Thomas 3:33
I love it. Okay, so I guess that’s where I want to start. Why rerelease this book and why rerelease this book now?

Stacey Abrams 3:40
I was very privileged in the early 2000s to be one of the first black women published in romantic suspense. I was published first through Kensington, and then through arabesque, which eventually became Harlequin. But those first three books went out of print. Berkeley came to me a few years ago and said, we’d love to release these titles. Again, these first three novels that you wrote rules of engagement, the art of desire and power of persuasion, rules of engagement was released last year. And that was the very first novel I wrote. And in that book, I met Alex Walton, who was the best friend of the main character. And it turns out Alex was so fun and so interesting, and deserves her own book. And so she meets and falls in love with, with Philip. The reason for re releasing it with both names is that at the time, when I first started writing, I was writing romantic suspense and tax policy. No one wakes up thinking I can’t wait to read a romance novel by Alan Greenspan. You can publish romance under a pseudonym. It’s hard to publish tax policy under any name other than your own. And so Selena Montgomery was born I’ve always been very I’m open and excited about being a romance novelist. But it was easier for branding purposes, to have those two separate names. And now, luckily, I’ve reached a place in my life where everything gets to come together. And so Selena and Stacey are one.

Traci Thomas 5:15
I love that. Do you miss sort of like the anonymity because I remember when, you know, when you really hit like the national stage public lift your politics and people were like, She also writes romance novels and everyone being like, wait, but it’s the same person? Like, do you miss any of that pre pre Selena and Stacy coming together? Or are you glad to be sort of out of the pen name closet, in the sense?

Stacey Abrams 5:44
I’ve always been very open about writing romance, because I think it is a fantastic way to connect with readers to tell fun, interesting, complicated stories, but to do so in a way that feels accessible. And that’s how I think about my politics. Politics is about talking about things like tax policy, or the complicated narratives around environmental action, but to do it in a way that people find accessible. And so for me, it’s always been that I am Selena and Stacey. It’s nice to have everyone else in on the story.

Traci Thomas 6:21
How did you name Selena? I’m always so curious how people come up with their pen names.

Stacey Abrams 6:26
So I was sitting at home, it was about two in the morning, my publisher needed my pen name. We discussed the fact that I had these two identities at the time. And this is just at the advent of Google. And so I had to think about what name would I want, and I was being very presumptive, and assuming I’d have to sign it. And then one thing at the biography of Elizabeth Montgomery, who played Samantha on Bewitched, and I loved Samantha, I’d love to be which and so Elizabeth Montgomery did one of my favorite episodes of Twilight Zone. So I was like, oh, Montgomery, and then if you remember her evil cousin on Bewitched, with Serena, I didn’t like my Rs. But I really liked my ELS system, Rena came Selena and I became Elena Montgomery. It love. It’s also in the morning, and I was watching TV. So these things are all of the peace.

Traci Thomas 7:18
Do you? Are you happy with the name? Or do you think if you did it at like, four in the afternoon, it would be something different?

Stacey Abrams 7:23
I think she became who she needed to be. It was.

Traci Thomas 7:29
And do you think of Selena Montgomery? Is someone different from you? Like, do you? I know that in the introduction to this art of the art of desire, you have sort of this sub, you know, it’s like a page and a half and you sort of say, like, so happy for you to come with with us, as in you and Selena. So I’m wondering like how you think of her maybe separate from you?

Stacey Abrams 7:50
Well for twenty years, she was a standalone part of my life, people who knew my romance knew Selena Montgomery, they didn’t really know who Stacey Abrams was or cares that much. And people who knew Stacey Abrams, didn’t necessarily always know about romance. But as a, as an avid romance reader, we get very connected to our authors. And we follow what they write and we will buy it religiously. And so for me, it was important that I protect Selena Montgomery’s brand and her her ethos in writing. And I hear myself as I say this, like she’s a different person. But for me, it’s always been that what Selena Montgomery writes is about romance and excitement and adventure in action, that Stacey Abrams gets to play a part. And that now, because both facets of my life have been able to merge, people get to see that but I don’t miss her. Because she’s always here. And I will hear from some fans, that she’s missing a book. There’s a third book in a trilogy that I started right before my political career really started to take on more heft. And so I owe them a third book and a trilogy, and I promise I’m gonna get it done.

Traci Thomas 9:09
You’re gonna get it done. Okay, that’s a promise. I was just gonna ask I was like, and when is it coming? As I’m hearing you talk about you know, Stacy and Selena I’m sort of hearing like these two different parts of you sort of this maybe the creative side, sort of the adventurous side, and then maybe the more like, pragmatic or practical side, you know, coming from this tax background and sort of like, you know, no one wants to read a book from Alan Greenspan romance all from Alan Greenspan, that kind of thing. Do you feel like you? Is it? I guess, since I’m a creative person, I sometimes think about like, how it’s how I can create and is it easier for you, do you feel free to create as Selena because it’s this place that you’ve created for yourself that is based in making or do you feel like you have that creative freedom as well as Stacey.

Stacey Abrams 9:59
I’ve always been incredibly privileged to have the flexibility to be all of the things. I went to performing arts high school, I went to a traditional part of the high school, but my younger sister wanted to talk audition, and didn’t want to go by herself. So I went with her. And it turns out, I could act a little bit. And so I was acting and doing lighting design for theater. At the same time, I was becoming valedictorian of my high school, and in my mind, those were completely aligned. I was writing for the Poetry Magazine, and in EMT in high school, you’re lots of different things, right? I’ve just I’ve always refused to let that go. I’ve never seen the justification for putting aside my creative side in favor of my more pragmatic side. And in fact, I find the mutually reinforcing, I am a better politician, because I spend time thinking about how people live their lives and those very quotidian moments of how do you meet someone? How do you find a relationship? How do you navigate thorny questions, or just the fact that they’re irritating you right now, I’m a better writer, because I get to explore all of these different worldviews that normally you may not encounter. I am a good entrepreneur, because I try things that make no sense. And I dive into spaces I’m not supposed to be and, and so you know, my first novel was about a chemical physicist who falls in love and has to navigate an evil terrorist organization, and her best friend discovers an obelisk that couldn’t have the secrets to the universe. And so for me, it’s always been that I’ve given myself permission and was given permission to be all of those things at once. I tease my mother that she said once to me, I think was on 14, or 15. She said, you don’t want to be a jack of all trades and a master of none. What she meant was pick something or two things and sort of focus. What I heard was try everything. So much to her chagrin, maybe she’s gotten over it. Now. I heard that to say, if you’re going to do it, if you’re going to try these different pieces of yourself, if you’re going to explore, just make sure you commit to it. Don’t be a dilettante who dabbles if you’re going to do it. Go all in. And that for me is what Selena does. It’s what Stacey does. And that’s what we do together.

Traci Thomas 12:29
Yeah, I love that so much. It’s a very both and sort of answer. Right? I was a theater major. So I just have to know what were some of the favorite roles you played in high school.

Stacey Abrams 12:39
So I did a my favorite one was a play called Dolls. That was about teenage angst and how we sort of find ourselves. I did lighting design for the boyfriend, which was so much fun to to actually, it’s a musical a lot of folks haven’t seen and then did all of her, which, of course, to this day, right? You break into song and you hear people use throwaway lines from it. And suddenly you’re in a Cockney accent that is completely inappropriate.

Traci Thomas 13:10
I could definitely relate to that. Okay, I want to talk a little bit about the book. Did you feel like any desire to update the book at all? Or to change things? Or were there parts of the book when you went back and revisited that felt like cringe all these years later? Or that you thought held up surprisingly well?

Stacey Abrams 13:28
I think it held up surprisingly well, it’s a bit of an evergreen story. Yeah, in its way, I mean, she’s the bride, she’s maid of honor, she’s going to pick up the groom the best man. They have a moment of passion that neither of them expect, but they’re also dealing with their own stuff. And what I love about writing romance is making sure that each character is their own person. I sort of push back against the narrative that these are two incomplete, people who become complete together. To my mind, it should be you are a whole and complete person, complicated, broken and have some problems, but you’re still your own person. And that the person you fall for makes you a better version of yourself. And that, for me was evergreen and the way I wrote the art of desire 20 years ago, I had to update the use of a landline to a cell phone. But there’s something mechanisms in there. But by and large, the story remains it was a story about politics and how fraught our politics are. It’s a story about trying to find herself which never goes out of style. And it was a conversation about how do you bend who you are, not to make yourself ready for someone else. But to be able to be with someone and navigate their issues, be a partner to who they are and those themes for me, really resonate, and that’s assigned to me of assault. writing exercise when the timing of the writing doesn’t matter, because the story remains. And that’s why we go to stories, years later and go back and pick them up. Because if the writer has done her job, it doesn’t matter when we are because the story remains constant for us.

Traci Thomas 15:23
Right? Yeah, no, that’s right. I mean, we so many of us revisit books that are that feel of a time and place like dated in some ways, and then also not another’s, like, there’s a part in your book where Philip goes to pick up, you know, Alex from the airport as a favor, and he goes right to the gate. And I was like, yeah, when did this book come out? Again, I’m like, I remember that barely. But I do remember that, like, clearly. And I was like, Oh, this book came out at the end of 2001. And so that means that when you wrote it, that was a thing we still did. Yeah. Which I just was like, you know, it’s like, it’s sort of almost like an Easter egg for the audience, when you go back to revisit something.

How do you feel like romance has changed, romance writing has changed over the last 22 years, what have you seen as a lover of the genre as a reader and also as a creator in the genre?

Stacey Abrams 16:20
When I started writing, romantic suspense, especially by black writers was not a given. It was. I was at the beginning of that becoming a true approach for writers to take. I mean, in the early 2000s, late 99, you had Beverly Jenkins, you had Brenda Jackson, you had a handful of writers, but you could name all of them. And so one fantastic thing is the plethora of writers who cut across demographic differences. Number two, there was a bit of pushback when I first started writing that I wasn’t culturally specific enough that I didn’t write in the voice that was expected for a writer who had a black character. And my mission was to tell stories, that were not culturally specific based on someone else’s notion of what that means that were universal, and that we could be anything. And that’s why I was so excited that Alex gets to have this very normal concern of and I’d be an artist, can I be a writer? What can I be and that that it wasn’t she wasn’t relegated to one corner of the universe because of what the cover said. And that to me is such a leap, especially for romance romance for a very long time. And it continues to to grapple with, how do we tell universal stories and trust that our audience can believe that a woman can be anything that a community can do anything? And I think that’s the best part about 22 years later. It’s still a conversation we’re having, but it’s not a conversation we’re starting.

Traci Thomas 18:02
Yes. Oh, my gosh, yes. It’s so true. How do you speaking of the cover, how did you think about bringing the this cover to 2023? Because it’s different. It’s a totally different look. And the original cover, they’re both on it on this one. It’s just Alex. Well, he’s in it, but it’s not like a lover’s embrace. So I’m wondering what the thinking was about that if you were involved in that process at all.

Stacey Abrams 18:26
I leaned on the publisher, they gave me two options. And that was the one that caught my eye. But I think that there is an accessibility that comes when the cover, says, Pick me up, read me and then decide if you’re going to dive in. There. When I first started writing, there was a group of men who read my books, they called themselves the brown paper bag club. Because the my very first novel, the guy got sick, his wife gave it to him to read. He’s like, I don’t read that stuff. And then he read it, like, Oh, my God, this is good. And they started sharing it with his friends. But he wanted to rip the cover off, because he couldn’t hand this book to someone else. His wife told him, don’t you dare look in a brown paper bag. And he passed it around to his friends who read my novels. And they would send me notes about getting feedback. And so I think this is for the brown paper bag club. They can pick up the book, and they don’t have to worry about any assumptions being made, or cast or you they whatever. machismo may stop them from picking up the book. gives them the freedom to do so. Although I think yeah, the brown paper bags still remains one of my favorite stories.

Traci Thomas 19:37
I love that- incredible. I feel like there there’s been such a shift in romance novels towards these like kind of cartoon style covers for a similar reason. I think like that there’s this like, I don’t know, embarrassment about reading a book that’s easily identified as romance, which you know, I think is sort of silly, but I also understand We all get embarrassed about so many different things that I think can be silly, including things I get embarrassed about. So you know, but I do think that the brown the brown paper bag, story is fantastic. And I feel like maybe you need to just make a book that looks like a brown paper bag. It’s like Sharpie on a paper bag looking cover. Do you feel like becoming a national figure in politics has changed how you think about yourself as an author or as a storyteller.

Stacey Abrams 20:27
My hope is that every experience deepens and broadens how I approach my work. And as a writer, it exposes me to other constructs in different thinking. But it doesn’t change the core of how I write, which is that I want to tell stories that are complicated, and yet fun. I love exploring parts of my personality, or the personality I wish I had. But also, I get to dive into industries and histories that I didn’t have. And so each time I write, I get a chance to explore a world I may not get to live in. But for the time I’m writing, and every time I open the book, I get to visit again. And that’s how I think about the world. I want to explore. I want to be curious, I want to solve problems I want to do good. And whether it’s in my writing or in my thinking or in my work in public service, or even as an entrepreneur, it’s how do I bring those pieces with me? But Selena Montgomery was the first time I got to publicly do that. When you write a novel you I just finished at Yale Law School. Most of my colleagues did not leave our our time at Yale writing romance. I mean, yes. You had a lot of lawyers. What did anybody know? No, I was the only one. Everyone else. You people talked about becoming John Grisham or doing something? No. I was, I became a romance novelist because my initial instinct of writing a spy novel was pushed back by the the industry. But I wanted to tell my story, I wanted the very first story to have life. And so I adapted, I killed all the same people I plan to kill, but I made my characters fall in love. And because of that, my first New Rules of Engagement became a book. And then because of that book, I got to meet Alex and Philip. And because of that, I wrote another one and another one in eight novels later, I had built this universe. And it was because I let myself challenge tropes and push back against what I was supposed to be, and that I wasn’t embarrassed. I mean, people presume that as I said earlier, the pseudonym had nothing to do with embarrassment or chagrin. It was about branding and making sure that the people who were going to be the natural audience could find me and wanted to be there with me. And now I’m just excited that because of the rerelease, I get to bring new people into the fold.

Traci Thomas 23:12
Yeah, that’s me. I’m a new person in the fall. Happy to be here. I love it here. I’m sort of new ish to romance since I started doing the podcast and I’ve learned so much from so many of my listeners who are like Avid romance readers about the rules and about, you know, what does what is happily ever after really mean? And like, is this a true romance is this not and I love it, I love getting to be in a new space with new rules and new ideas and just like, like a subculture, right, like it’s fun to be invited in. And so I’ve really enjoyed kind of trying to take on romance and thinking about it and experiencing it and, you know, pushing my preconceived notions to the side and being like, this is fun, or, or, This isn’t fun. Like, I don’t like this one. And that’s okay, too. You know, it just I like it here. So I’m new, but I’m enjoying it.

Stacey Abrams 24:01
Well, I’m glad I mean, part of part of the joy of romance. And I learned very early on, I would always describe myself as romantic suspense. Because for traditional romance, I, my my novels lean fairly heavily on action. And I was I was chastised early on that I was

Traci Thomas 24:20
I’ve learned about this from romance readers have strong opinions about this stuff.

Stacey Abrams 24:24
So I’m always clear I write romantic suspense. As one of my editors said she’s like, can you make sure they like each other by the end? Like of course they like each other? Yes. But it was for me it was writing the romance being absolutely core to the story. But there are different styles. My younger sister who’s also an avid romance reader, she has different romance, romantic archetypes that we like she is much more traditional romance. I’m much more romantic suspense. She’s she’s bridgerton and I’m you know, if she’s Julie Quinn and I’m Nora Roberts. And, you know, we, but it’s the fun thing is that we can swap novels and swap stories, you know, she’s Brenda Jackson, and I’m Beverly Jenkins or vice versa. And we get to be all of those things with one another in the same genre in the same field with the same authentic love for the writing.

Traci Thomas 25:23
Yeah, I love that. Okay, let’s talk about the writing. Yes. How do you like to write how many hours a day how often where are you music? Or no, this parts important snacks or beverages? Rituals, candles, like set the scene? How do you do it? Where do you do it?

Stacey Abrams 25:38
So when I wrote The Art of Desire, I was already practicing law. I was in a two bedroom apartment that I shared with my older sister when we could not afford much. So I turned the little mini dining room area into my work station. So I had a table. I listened to this beautiful guitar music by a composer named Nick Thompson, who has gone on to do amazing things and writing and he’s a journalist now. But he had this fantastic CD. And so I listened to his music and right. I’m a very methodical writer. So I, I start out with my synopsis, I then do my storyboard. And I lay out on a syllabus to this day on note cards sort of here. Here’s each chapter. I, because I’m often doing 12 other things. I don’t set a time or a date. But what I do, I figure out, here’s what I need to get done. And so I will carve out the time it takes to do that notecard to do that chapter. And then I get through it all, I come back. And as I write I have so my sister, the other romance novel, she edits all of my romance novels, so she would get these books, you know, she gets these chapters. I don’t do as many iterations as I think some writers do, because I’m pretty careful when I write. And I don’t share it with a lot of people. Because I think at a certain point, if it’s too communal, you’re no longer writing it. You’re, you’re just curating for me, right, I have a very singular point of view. I make sure I’ve hit the pieces I need to hit, I send it to my editor, and I wait for them to tell me whether I suck or not.

Traci Thomas 27:20
What about snacks and beverages?

Stacey Abrams 27:22
Okay, so I do water or tea. That’s what kind of tea English breakfast tea, although I so I’ve expanded out. I will now do I like black teas. I’m not a green tea person.

Traci Thomas 27:34
I’m a black tea girl to do do sugar and milk in it.

Stacey Abrams 27:36
I do sugar. I will do milk if I’m doing if I’m doing a really bitter tea. Okay, so if I’m doing an earl grey or a really strong BlackField I’ll add milk. But most of the time, it’s just sugar. Me and a cup of tea.

Traci Thomas 27:50
Love it. Love it. What’s the word? You can never spell correctly on the first try? There aren’t many because i Are you a fantastic speller.

Stacey Abrams 27:59
I wrote a children’s book about it. Yes, I actually did spelling bees when I was little. I love words.

Traci Thomas 28:06
Wow, we hate this for us. Okay, we like a bad speller around here. It’s not it’s not going to be popular with the audience. I’m just letting you know.

Stacey Abrams 28:15
Just know that I had a traumatic experience in my youth that led me to a rather man maniacal commitment to spelling right?

Traci Thomas 28:24
So okay, we will forgive you if you kind of trauma around origin story. Okay, okay, we will forgive this. I asked this to everybody. And I know this is really charged for someone like you, but what comes next?

Stacey Abrams 28:36
I will always be in multiple spaces. I’m incredibly privileged to be a writer who I have died of desires being released. And I think Berkeley for seeing enough in my stories to tell this one again. And I just had a legal thriller come out, and I’ve got a children’s book that’s coming out next year. And so for me, writing is always the piece. But I’m also an entrepreneur. So I’m doing some work with small businesses. I’m working on helping people electrify because climate action is necessary and climate change is real. And we have a chance to, if not turn the tides and at least stem it. And I’m excited to be working with rewiring America. And then yes, I will be involved in politics for the rest of my life. It’s not my focus right now, although I’m very excited about some work that I’m doing there. And we’ve got this little election coming up in 24. And I’ll probably try to make I will definitely try to make sure that my guy gets reelected. But I don’t know when I will run again. I probably will. In fact, I certainly will run stand for office again, but it’s not the focus for me right now. And I’m grateful that I can tell the stories. I’ve got a production company so I can turn some of them into television and movies when the strike Hopefully is resolved in favor of the writers and the actors who deserve to be taken seriously and be able to make a living with what they love. And as a writer who went from making $2,500, from my very first book, to being paid a lot more now, I can appreciate just how important it is that your life’s passion that your creative art is given. Not only credibility, but value. And so I I’m just excited about the fact that I don’t have to choose. And Stacy and Selena get to go into the sunset together.

Traci Thomas 30:37
I love this. Okay, last one. If you could have one person dead or alive, read this book, who would you want it to be?

Stacey Abrams 30:43
I mean, my favorite romance novelist is Nora Roberts. And so she’s always going to be the person who in my mind if she likes it, I’m golden.

Traci Thomas 30:55
I love that so much, Stacey, thank you so much for being here. Everyone, you can get the art of desire. Wherever you get your books, as Stacey mentioned, she’s got a lot of other books too. So if you’ve already read that one, there’s others for you out in the world. There’s thrillers, there’s romantic suspense, there’s children’s books. So there’s a memoir, right? There’s a memoir.

Stacey Abrams 31:13
There’s a memoir. They can go to staceyabrams.com or StaceyAbramscreates.com and learn all about all of my sites.

Traci Thomas 31:18
Yeah, and we’ll link to everything in the show notes. And Stacey, thank you for being here.

Stacey Abrams 31:23
Traci, this has been a delight. I appreciate your time.

Traci Thomas 31:26
Thank you and everyone else we will see you in the Stacks.

Alright, y’all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening. And thank you again to Stacey Abrams for joining the show. I’d also like to thank Tina Joelle for helping to make this conversation possible. Remember the stats book club pick for September is Monsters: A Fan’s Dilemma by Claire Dederer, which we will be discussing on Wednesday, September 27th with Brittany Luse. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks pack. Make sure you’re subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcast. If you’re listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, leave us a rating and a review. For more from the stacks. You can follow us on social media. We’re at the stackspod on Instagram, tick tock and threads and we’re at the stacks pod underscore on Twitter. And of course check out our website thestackspodcast.com This episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. Our graphic designers Robin MacWrite. The stats is created and produced by me Traci Thomas.

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