Ep. 270 My Whole Self Is Here with Hannah Oliver Depp – Transcript

Today we’re joined by the owner and operator of Loyalty Bookstores, Hannah Oliver Depp. We hear about Hannah’s road to owning her own bookstores in Maryland and Washington DC, how she decides what to stock, and how indie bookstores influence the publishing world. We also discuss the best ways to support indie shops.

The Stacks Book Club selection for June is Oreo by Fran Ross. We will discuss the book on June 28th with Hannah Oliver Depp.


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*Due to the nature of podcast advertising, these timestamps are not 100% accurate and will vary.

Traci Thomas 0:08
Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I’m your host Traci Thomas and today I’m speaking with Hannah Oliver Depp, who owns and operates Loyalty Bookstores in DC and in the surrounding metro area. Some of you might remember Hannah from when she was a guest during our banned book week series, and today she’s back to talk about what it’s like running her very own intersectional mission driven feminist bookstore. Hana is a career bookseller serving on the boards of bookshop.org and the new Atlantic independent Booksellers Association. Today we talk about Honda’s road to book selling how readers can support their local indies aside from buying books, and we hear how Hana and her team of booksellers decide what to stock on their shelves. Hana will return for our June book club discussion of Oreo by Fran Ross, which we will discuss on Wednesday, June 28. Quick reminder, everything we talked about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. Do you know what is very cool the stacks back that’s the exclusive community for lovers of the stacks over on Patreon. For as little as $5 a month you get to join our virtual book club and discord chats and link up with like minded book lovers and be a part of the best bookish community in town. The Sax pack also gets bonus episodes and to weigh in on stacks decisions like our book club picks plus discounts on merch and a lot more. Again, all of that is for just $5 a month. Plus joining the stacks pack makes it possible for me to keep the stacks up and running as an independent podcaster. So if you want more of the show, and to help me make it every single week, head to patreon.com/the stacks to join. Again, that’s patreon.com/the stacks. And now it’s time for my conversation with Hannah Oliver Depp.

Alright, everybody, I’m so excited. You all have been begging me to have this person back on the show we finally are making it happen. I am joined again by Hannah Oliver Depp, who is the owner and founder of loyalty bookstores in Washington DC and the Washington DC metro area. Welcome back.

Hannah Oliver Depp 2:23
Hi, I am so excited to be back. I love this show. And I am deeply amused that people wanted me back to do something other than although I will always rant about like banning.

Traci Thomas 2:37
Well we’re going to talk about banning today a little bit because I kind of want to do like where are we now since we since we that’s the last time people heard from you. But before we do that, let’s start where we sort of always like to start which is like tell us a little bit about yourself because I feel like I’m the book banning episode we didn’t like get a lot of backstory on you.

Hannah Oliver Depp 2:57
Where did I come from? I rose out of the ocean on a seashell. They cracked open seas, his head and I was- no I was an academic studying medieval modernism, which is uses of medievalisms. And the interwar period specifically, is what I was looking at very British very good white guy, rooted in a love of dragons and kind of looking at how the other was treated in times of stress. And yeah, I adored, that was really struggling with where academia was, and still is. And like the tension between where funding is coming from how on earth, you can balance like being there for your students and teaching and a love of teaching and community and, you know, bringing forth young minds and pushing forth research and also just like the pressure to justify the existence of any liberal arts department and or subject as American education becomes increasingly more, you know, driven by by, you know, funding and competition. So, I was just really sort of struggling with that and feeling additionally that I didn’t belong because of being you know, more working class as well as, of course, more a person of color. And, you know, I was definitely I had so many wonderful mentors, and I had fun, my people, but it was never celebrated, that I had been, you know, working in retail since I was a teenager, that I had a theatre background that I you know, was a visual thinker, that, that my experience is like working with the public made me a better teacher, that my ability to understand living paycheck to paycheck, because that’s what I was doing. It made me a better teacher, not a worse teacher, except for a fact that financial stress makes us all worse. So he just like felt like there was just so much tension between In, you know, what I love to do, which is, you know, education and the fact that like, my whole self was not welcomed in the classroom, I took a break between my MA and my Ph. D program and I went to work at politics and prose, which is a bookstore in Washington DC that I had like grown up going to, and definitely formed a lot of like my own, you know, mind as a child and has like getting well deserved incredibly well reputed children’s section and then, you know, graduating to the top floor, which had the grown up books, and going to author events and things like that. And I realized that a lot of what I was looking for, in independent books selling like, it was there, like I was able to bring all of my intellectualism as well as my whole body and self into that room. And I was able to, like actually connect with customers, I was able to do what had been done for me, which was like, guide people at all sorts of stages of their life, wherever they were, whether it was a heartbreak, whether it was a loss, whether it was boredom, whether it was not seeing themselves, just different phases and stages of life, or the constant human condition and help them find the right book. And I saw the impact that a bookstore that cared, could have on a community and could have on the publishing industry, which is a huge beast unto itself. And bookstores and publishing house, this relationship, they love and hate each other as they love or hate themselves. No, there actually isn’t any hate. But there is, again, that tension, because there’s not a lot of money in books. And there’s not a lot of, you know, space for error. But bookstores are incredibly good at doing introducing books to people, especially if they’ve never heard of them before. So your debut authors, your underrepresented authors, we are very good at getting those into people’s hands. So publishers really do value that relationship. And so you’re able to say we need way, way, way more middle grade chapter books with kids of color, who are going on mystery adventures or fantasy adventures. Or, you know, we really don’t have enough essay collections by people from this background or whatever, like we’re able to have these conversations directly with publishers in a way that is maybe outside of necessarily like my dealing with that publisher, because they care about the opinions that booksellers have, because we’re seeing what’s happening direct face to face with customers. And we are reading way in advanced all across all genres, right. And that was just stunning to me. Because as someone who you know, was studying as previously stated, medieval literature, the idea of having like, you know, talking to a publisher, and then in three to five years seeing some of those ideas, like come out, while also watching a person in your communities mind of all because of the conversations you’re all having like. And then on top of that all like, there is still the things that I was good at like opening and closing a store and managing the operations that were going around me and I was like, Oh my God, my whole self is here. Except I was I want to be clear, very embraced by the store to be my whole self. But there was a lot of tension. Because, you know, the store that I first became a full time bookseller in is a legendary store is a store that cares a lot. But it is in one of the most affluent nation like neighborhoods in this country. And it’s extremely white. And it was exhausting. I’m adopted. I grew up in white community, I was a transracial adoptee, I am very, very good at navigating this. And what community did I want to spend all of my energy and my time serving? Was it a community that was never going to be not served? Right? All right, a community that without dedication and passion was going to continually be overlooked. And so a few years into my career as a bookseller, I just not only wanted to be able to move further in my career, because this is a issue we have with bookselling. Again, really small margins, really, you know, really, any business is by and large, there’s not always room to like move up in a company or to grow your skill set past a certain point. And I was, I think, part of like a wave of dedicated caring booksellers who really wanted to see the industry grow and change, but maybe we weren’t in the right places to do that. I did what many people do, I looked for a wonderful mentor to help me grow what and worked at another bookstore word bookstores in which is a Jersey City and in Brooklyn. And that store had opened it was less than 10 years old at that point. And just like I was like, you know, at this incredible legendary bookstore, but there’s a lot of great lessons about how to like Grow, evolve and adapt. But there weren’t any of like how start bookstore.

Traci Thomas 10:05
Yeah, totally.

Hannah Oliver Depp 10:06
Which is a totally different task. And so you know, I worked there for three years, and I learned a ton continue to grow my connection to the book industry. But the idea was always to come home to Washington, DC.

Traci Thomas 10:18
And that’s where you grew up.

Hannah Oliver Depp 10:19
I grew up a little bit all over the place. And actually, I think the place we lived the longest was in Elkton, Maryland, which is not a place that’s famous for anything other than being near other things. north of Baltimore, but I spent most of my summers here in DC with my aunt, she’s the one who would take me to politics and prose. And when as soon as I whenever I had the choice of where to live, this is where I came home. And this is like, my, my mental home. Yeah, but no, I did not, like grow up here. I think it’s really important. Because like, if you like, I was, you know, at DC public school acts, right. You know, like, that’s a really strong core thing that I respect.

Traci Thomas 11:04
I respect that I live in LA. So like, being from LA is very, I think, similar, like also being from New York City. Exactly. Whereas I’m like, This is my home, but I have not from here, from here. Yeah. It means something, culturally, to be from some of these, like, major American cities, because they’re so transient. Yeah. And

Hannah Oliver Depp 11:25
I grew up around here. I have family here. I, you know, I would go I had a very unusual, very hippy upbringing, and I would go stay with family members for like, long stretches of time. I see. And so I’m like, yeah, there’s a lot of me that was deeply influenced from a very young age by this place. But you know, was not my was not my mailing address. Got it? Until my 20s. Yeah, and then but yeah, I’ve spent more time here than anywhere else, and will always be here.

Traci Thomas 11:53
Okay, wait, before we go on to the beginning of loyalty. I have some follow up questions.

Hannah Oliver Depp 11:56
Oh, my God, I just been talking for so long. I’m so sorry. That was the longest version. I think I’ve ever. Like Tracy, what did you do? To me? That was like everything I’ve ever done. And like,

Traci Thomas 12:06
I want I want to know, I asked, but it’s just funny because you were answering a lot of the questions I had written down for you. So I was like, Well, I’m not going to stop her because she’s sort of just like going through my list. But I do. I do have a follow up question about you. Your background in theater. You had a background in theater.

Hannah Oliver Depp 12:24
Oh, come on. Yes. I’m a theater kid. Man.

Traci Thomas 12:28
I was a theater major.

Hannah Oliver Depp 12:30
Yeah. That was oh, I was like the queen of Liberal Arts. I was like, I’ve got English. I’ve got theater. I’ve got Women’s Studies. Yeah, gosh. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Total total theater kid. My Favorite Things are costume design and set dressing. Back. I was like, definitely a tight kid. But I was on stage a lot. I love you know, brown kid on stage. I was obviously the best friend a significant amount of time, everyone.

Traci Thomas 12:56
I can relate. I can relate. Yeah, I also played a lot of evil wives.

Hannah Oliver Depp 13:01
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Which like, delicious and fun. But you’re also like, I know why you picked me for this role.

Traci Thomas 13:09
I understand why I’m a stepmother. Yeah, I love it here but also like I see you. Okay. And then you were mentioning how the bookseller relationship with publishers and like getting to give them feedback. You are experiencing that when you were at politics and prose before you ever even opened Loyalty?

Hannah Oliver Depp 13:29
Yeah, yeah, I will say, you know, the, the relationship is, like complicated. And you know, how it works is different in each store. But we were really nurtured to, you know, read ahead, and, you know, take take as many, you know, advanced copies home and read them as we could to write reviews. And, you know, if you showed passion, that passion was like returned in 10 fold by people who had been in the industry longer. And so if a sales rep for a publisher saw that I was like, really engaged, they chatted me up, and they talked to me, and I’m like, What are you reading? What are you liking? What are you seeing as somebody who’s on the sales floor every day? What’s moving what’s not? And then they have their, you know, weekly meeting with their superiors, and they pass on what they, you know, talk to the booksellers that week about during their sales calls.

Traci Thomas 14:19
Does that then, like those conversations with the sales department, does that then somehow end up with editorial?

Hannah Oliver Depp 14:27
Yeah, yeah, I mean, again, it’s probably different with every publisher, but I know that and like, you know, the bigger the publisher to it’s like, you know, a smaller press, you just talk to people directly, versus like something at a Penguin Random House level where they own more than half of the various presses in the country. And it’s like getting up up up above. But even so, there still are, you know, there’s just like any company, you are getting feedback from people from all various different departments and then, you know, you do your, you know, seasonal kind of conferences where you’re like talking about direction and you’re talking about trends. And you’re talking about and, you know, I know for a fact that like blurbs booksellers have written and up in those rooms that like, hey, you know, I had a conversation with, you know, one of our biggest bookstores on the East Coast, and they were saying you’re seeing this, and then I’d rep from, you know, is like, Oh, well, I’m seeing this, you know, and they represent a different part of the country, right? Because it’s usually split up geographically. So people can actually visit the stores they represent. So, you know, it’s like, you know, are they going to take something that they heard from, say, a loyalty or mahogany, at the same level that they’re going to take what the Amazon sales rep says? depends? Depends, but But it’s in the mix. It’s in the conversation, right? Like, my billing is nothing compared to Amazon stealing. It’s nothing compared to larger bookstores billing, but I am like getting information that they can’t really get anywhere else, like no amount of surveys or algorithm clicks are going to be the same as what I see every day.

Traci Thomas 16:08
And an Amazon, there is no real true introduction to titles like you might have like, if you’re interested in this, you might like this. But none of it is like organic or specific to a reader. Yeah. So you have a sense of like, when people come into the bookstore, and they’re saying, like, I’m looking for XYZ, you’re able to, like translate that very literally. Whereas Amazon would have to do that through like some sort of algorithms of what people are searching for, which is not always helpful, right? It’s not always accurate. Yeah,

Hannah Oliver Depp 16:42
I always look, I talk about it. Like, it’s Sherlock Holmes, like, I will look at you, it sounds a little predatorial. Almost. But like, I look at you and be like, Okay, this is like, what you’re wearing this is how your posture is. This is where you’re seeing comfortable or uncomfortable. And like my job is to, like, coax you into, like telling me the truth. Because people have a lot of preconceived notions too, sometimes when they walk in a store that they need to, like, appear a certain way or a certain way. So I want to make them comfortable if they feel like that, or if they just like, have not had the opportunity because they have not had a bookstore in their community before, which is very common. And I’m like, Well, what shows do you like, because I like the last, you know, the last book I read was like, you know, in high school, and I hated it, but I really want to read more. And I’m like, that’s totally fine. Or they’re like, I’ve only ever read X, you know, only ever read nonfiction. And I think that’s weird. Maybe I should read, you know, so getting people to a place where they’re, like, actually talk to you because often what they think they’re coming in for might not be what they actually want or need. Right?

Traci Thomas 17:41
I got I got to be a bookseller for a day at my local bookstore reparations club on Monday, I was getting like book recommendations for hours. And it was the most fun, it’s intoxicating. It’s so great. I mean, I was like, literally running all over the store, like pulling things off the shelf being like, okay, they don’t have this in stock. But let’s go ahead and order it because it’s exactly what you want. I mean, it’s just, it’s so much fun. If you love books to get to talk about books, and it is sort of like this mystery, and trying to like excite someone about a book, even though they have no clue what you’re talking about, because they haven’t read it. But you don’t want to tell them anything. But you also want to tell them every like it’s like the whole thing. Okay, we want to go back to loyalties origin stories. So you go to Jersey and Brooklyn, you kind of do like an apprenticeship. How do I do this? You decide, Okay, I’m coming back to DC. I’m opening this bookstore. And then how long did that take to actually like, get back to DC to do it? And also, how did you come up with the name?

Hannah Oliver Depp 18:45
Oh, great question. It was a long time. And also it happened really fast. So we had a bookstore here on upper Street in the Petworth neighborhood of DC called up for three books. And they were sort of like, heading towards closing. But the owner was a restaurant tour. And he really just like saw the neighborhood needed a bookstore, which absolutely does. And so he’d like opened one, but it was like, it was not his, you know, full focus. He really cared about it, he felt that he needed a bookstore, she was looking for someone to kind of take it on, but it was not really, you know, necessarily my mission. It was a lovely spot. But it was a little bit different than what I wanted to do, you know, focusing entirely, you know, on diverse literature on making sure that the, you know, community that had made Petworth everything it was I think, got further gentrified was like the main focus of the store. And, you know, could introduce the folks moving newly into the store into like, what this neighborhood, the best parts of this neighborhood, which are the people that made it he was lovely to work with, we sort of did kind of like a work to own program. And I needed to kind of like raise funds to do any of that because I don’t know if you know, but working in major cities as an independent bookseller does not allow You save money. So we did a pop up and I pulled every every favor and connection that I had in the book industry. I sort of like lovingly jokingly say, like, all of my friends are operations managers, but it’s like absolutely true. Like, every single one of us is like, an earth sign and like an end or INTJ, like whatever your, like, whatever your personality type preference rubrics is, we are all exactly that person. And so it was like, I was like, Okay, you are going to do this for me. And you do this. For me. I was like, marshalling every favor, ever. And it was really just beautiful, like community came together to help make this thing happen. And so we did a pop up in downtown silver spring, which I did live in as a kid, which is nearby, it’s just like, just outside of DC. And it’s, it’s always like in the top five, like most diverse cities in America, it’s a huge immigrant city. It’s an incredible place. They also hadn’t had a bookstore in years. And I was like, This is unacceptable. So my goal was always to do multiple bookstores with like a link to mission. And so I knew Silver Spring was looking for a bookstore, I wanted to keep a bookstore in Petworth, I was like, we’re gonna do pop ups. And we’re just gonna, like, see what happens. We were able to keep a bookstore an extra Street, and we use money from that we’ve made during the pop up to kind of raise awareness about the brand and to do like an opening order for the for the upper Street location. And we opened loyalty on after street in Petworth in DC in February of 2019. And stayed in various public forums, whether that was at farmer’s markets, or inside coffee shops in silver spring over the next year, as well. And then opened in February and 2020 in silver spring. So two locations right now, as well as just like, you know, we kind of, we do events all over the city. And we’re working on gathering funding and staffing and things for a bookmobile as well. So we can get even further places. That’s definitely some some months off, because we are very tapped to the hilt now.

Traci Thomas 22:08
But how did you come with the name?

Hannah Oliver Depp 22:10
Yeah, so the idea is that bookstores are definitely a two way street between the community and the booksellers loyalty is like a really central idea just for like my own personal Guiding Light. I, I think that you know, when you let a thing, or make a commitment to a thing, or let someone in your life, that you, you know, it’s it’s so important, what you choose to spend your time on, and who you choose to spend your time with. And for me, if you put a book or story in your community, you’re saying, I’m here for you, I’m committed to you. And the way that it works is that the community has to be committed to you to it, it is a relationship that you are forming. It’s what makes bookselling such a difficult business because it’s not a business that makes a ton of money, but it’s a business that is dependent upon relationships. And so you know, that relationship might be someone passing through, or it may be somebody who grows up coming to your bookstore. Yeah, and you know, both are important. So I just wanted a name that really focused on that. It was, you know, fairly unique, and I really loved it. I also sort of joke that I am, like, my reading taste, and my aesthetics are like the lovechild between like Kendrick Lamar and CS Lewis.

Traci Thomas 23:37
So not expecting that question, but I love it.

Hannah Oliver Depp 23:41
That is me. Especially, you know, specifically that album. So yeah, the song loyalty I probably, like blasted that. More so than anything. I love that album. Yeah, it’s so good. And, you know, problematic face. It’s really, you know, what are you going to do? And yeah, I grew up reading you know, like many a baby medievalist I grew up reading, you know, any kind of fantasy I could get my hands on, but the kind of like, idea of friendship and of like, love in a community that’s really like, an important part of CSS is work. And so I just was like, Oh, this is like what implanted in me and kind of guides my morals. And when I’m really, really, really tired, or overwhelmed, while running a small business, it helps to have the word loyalty in place on the wall.

Traci Thomas 24:30
I love that. I love that so much. Okay, you talked about how booksellers can influence publishing. And I obviously have an audience of a lot of readers and I think the conversation about Amazon and then like a Barnes and Noble or a target and then independent bookstores and how to support and all of these things. I want to know, what are the things that readers can do that are the most impactful for an independent bookstore, aside from going to the bookstore, like are there other things people can be doing to support the work of independent bookstores that maybe they don’t think of? Or like, maybe are easier than they think? Or, or more difficult than buying books or like, aside from just like going to the store and writing a book, what else matters for readers to do to support your work and their local Indies?

Hannah Oliver Depp 25:27
Yeah, that thank you for that question. And on the one hand, it is like straightforward capitalism, like if you want, you know, what, there was an indie campaign that the American wrestling Association did a wild like bias, buy it here, keep us here, like it’s a very like, by the book, right? By the stickers by the cards, by our membership is that the thing that really is like the model, however, we all know, there’s like so much to overcome in this capitalistic hellscape that like, you know, and also we know that like, not everyone can afford it a $30 hardcover every week, right? Like, it can be complicated. So one of the hugest things is sharing that your bookstore exists. I work at bookstores that are 30 years old and hugely famous, and like people would walk in and be like, how long has this been here? And, you know, like the general vibe is that like bookstores are dying. They’re not actually they’re growing, independent bookstores are opening up more and more all the time. But it’s still like small business in America is a huge uphill battle, and there’s no margins and bookselling so having you to tell your friends who come into town to visit your cousin your mom and tell everybody that that there is a bookstore in your neighborhood, or if there is not what bookstore you like that ships because pretty much everybody ships everywhere and has a website now like this is not like the early 90s, when like bookstores were like, You can call me maybe this is very much like they are online, they are shipping internationally, or at least throughout the US. It is so helpful. You absolutely share on social media. That’s a really, really big deal. We have like a one of my favorite local books to grammars, the Peter reads who’s wonderful, definitely follow Lupita great book recommendations like today shared like about an event and was like, DC who’s coming to this event because like they themselves were going like a normal person. And they’re like, if anyone wants to come like meet me there, you know, that wasn’t something we asked her to do. But I know that like, the algorithm is going to like that. And it’s going to help more people find out about that event, and therefore our bookstore. That kind of stuff is huge sharing, if you like like the book stack that I put on social be like, Oh my God, look at what my books are putting on social, it’s really simple. If you don’t have money, word of mouth, and social media are so incredibly huge, because people need to hear things repeatedly before they remember they exist. Yeah, and just like the vague idea that somewhere there’s a local bookstore that would be nice to support or is picturesque or it has unique recommendations is kind of where I think a lot of readers heads are. And that’s totally understandable. But like, how do we get that to actually when it is time for you to buy that book? And you are in the neighborhood? Or you don’t you know, you know, it’s not the book that your kid forgot to tell you they needed to do their homework in the next two hours. Is it possible that you can get it there? So I do think it’s like so much of it is word of mouth. I think the other side of this is if you are someone who is engaged in what’s going on locally, how does your local government treat small business? Like what what are how how, what are landlords allowed to get away with? What are are the taxes that your small businesses pay so much worse than what a Walmart or a Target pays when they move into your community? What happens when a small business needs help? Because they got a window broken or there was a flood? Are there grants around? You know, what, how does your local How do your local electricians treat small businesses? Is it just a photo op? Or are they actually making it possible for your downtown’s and your neighborhoods to be unique and special and places that you’re happy to live in? What are the bike lane laws? What are you know what’s happening with trash pickup? Like these are like really large, big questions. But those are actually more often than not the things that kill a business when there is no margins, right? When they like little things like that. They really pile up and that can be really hard and, you know, DC is, you know, always writing this, you know, kind of courting development on gentrification and Bigger companies. And also like, there are a lot of programs here for small business, we’re pretty lucky. It’s really exhausting. You know, and one of the things I’m trying to do better this year is to take advantage of them. And if there are community members who’ve been like, if you ever need help with XYZ, let me know, like trying to actually follow up on that, because it is hard, you know, for everyone to do more than just like getting through the day. Right? Right. Right, right. So if you don’t have like, a lot of margin and your product, your profit, you know, isn’t huge. And you have, you know, knock on wood, God forbid, etc, something happened to your building, or, you know, staff members are sick or anything, you know, all that stuff we saw with COVID, that actually hasn’t gone away at all, especially not for small businesses. So the fact that it’s both a book place and small business is really like a double whammy of difficulty for for any bookstores. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 30:59
Okay, we’re gonna take a quick break, and then we’ll be right back. Okay, so I didn’t prep you for this, but we do and ask the stack segment where someone writes in for a book recommendation. I have, I have, I think, artists, this is the hardest one I’ve ever had. But I’m hoping that you know, because you’re so well read, I had to outsource my answers to Twitter, because I could not think of an answer.

Hannah Oliver Depp 31:24
And so this is where also I have to tell you and everyone who’s ever like, worked with me or been hampered by me knows this. I am so bad at author names.

Traci Thomas 31:33
It’s okay. We’ll also link to that in the show notes.

Hannah Oliver Depp 31:37
Or you might be clack, but only because I’m like making sure I’m happy.

Traci Thomas 31:41
We will take care of that. Don’t worry. Okay, so this comes from Tanya, and they say I inherited a bunch of Erich Segal books from my grandmother, and actually enjoy them. Are there more modern books like that books about ambitious guys living their lives, climbing corporate ladders, falling in love and fucking up their marriages, all while navigating their unresolved daddy issues. Seagull probably wrote for women, but his books feel like the male equivalent of Chiclet Do you know anyone writing something similar these days? Brian Washington, who I also love writes about young black men in a similar way bros just living and fucking up their lives. But I love the middle upper class 30s and 40s problems of Segal’s characters as well. Any all Bro Lit recommendations would be appreciated.

Hannah Oliver Depp 32:33
Yes, absolutely. But I do have some ideas.

Traci Thomas 32:36
Oh, you do already? Okay, well, then you go first, because I really struggled. And I outsource to people. And also, I don’t even know some of the books that I’m getting ready to say. And I will link to the Twitter thread where these answers are. So yeah, I want to read more Twitter threads. Yeah, there were some good options. But okay, what is popping out to you? What came to you?

Hannah Oliver Depp 32:55
Um, well, this is a like, a little bit like cheating. But like Brandon Taylor writes about, like, the over educated lost sad souls. Yes, totally. From an outsider perspective, which like, gives you a way in, but they are, you know, it’s like, dinner parties where the conversation is like, you both, like, want to punch everybody, but also you’re like, Oh, my God, I’ve been at this table or, but yeah, it is that it’s that age group. It’s that like, we are career and we are moving up. And it’s often either academia or, you know, related to that. So I definitely think Brandon Taylor the up and like, also, that’s like he’s done short stories and novels as well. New York, my village was the first thing that sprang to mind, which is by I actually don’t know how to say his first name. But I think it’s OOM Akpan, and it is funny. Like, is a person like doing well in their career as an author actually, it’s a little bit off the wall. He’s like, doing well, he’s out on his book tour. He’s like, succeeding, but he is fucking up all over the place. Then he sees start seeing like a kid and he doesn’t know if the kid is real or Um, and yeah, it’s you’re like very much so inside his brain, but you’re also watching him, like, just navigate life like ethics at being like a successfully public career person, while also not being a successfully public career person. It can it be also, like, at least Batman who did the idiot also has either or which I would 100% but in this category of like, you know, it’s a woman’s perspective, which I think this person specifically was like, I need to do it, but like, I don’t read about dudes very often.

Traci Thomas 34:49
I know. That’s why it’s such a hard question because I’m like, This is not in my wheelhouse. Like, one of my recommendation is also by a woman which is Fleishman is in trouble. I think that It’s like, totally bro. Let, Fleishman is fucking up his life. His life is already fucked up. I don’t know why she troubles Fleischman is troubled. Yeah, so I cheated a little bit there I don’t know if that if it’s allowed but I mean, I

Hannah Oliver Depp 35:16
I mean, I think that but I do understand this person is looking for the banter. They’re looking for the you know, some some good stuff but But I get it it is also hard to find books like that that are Yeah, I think this is one of the reasons that I hate hated and like rebelled so much against Chiclet because I was like when dudes do it, we just called it fiction for the entire 80s especially, you know, 70s and 80s. And then we were like, oh, a woman’s writing about people wandering around and having relationships or not succeeding in them. We’ll make a whole category for it. You’re like, Well, exactly.

Traci Thomas 35:51
Yeah, no, I mean, I think another book that someone suggested, which I have not crossed my mind, but totally fits is less by Andrew Sean

Hannah Oliver Depp 35:58
Greer. And of course the last his last, which was like slowest, the new one. The follow up? Yeah. What’s your like, if you were like, no one, you know, I was very nervous. As someone who loved the last like a lot of people. I was like, why are you writing more? And then I was like, I’m so glad you did. This is delightful. Oh, really?

Traci Thomas 36:15
Because I did not like less. Oh, you did

Hannah Oliver Depp 36:17
not like less? Yeah. So I think the stakes are higher in this one. And so that it was like more of a plot plot to it, which I think is probably a reasonable critique of last. Yeah. You know, this has he’s traveling across America, which is fascinating. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 36:35
My other two one is the town of Babylon by Alejandro vermelha. Because Oh, that that sort of has like, he’s going back home for his high school reunion or whatever. And like re encountering. So that sort of has that like drama, banter, sort of, it’s sort of funny. And then the other one is not out yet. I think it’s out when you all are listening to this next week. It’s called sucker by Daniel Hornsby. And it’s a good read. Yeah, it’s like, I haven’t read it. But just the way it was presented to me was like, a bad blood meat succession kind of thing like this, like rich, this rich kid, of like a, from a rich family starts working at this startup that like, wants to suck your blood and like make you immortal or something? I don’t know. That’s how it’s presented. It’s kind of intrigued me. And so when I got this question, I was like, oh, there’s that book I just heard about. So we did. Tanya, I don’t know if you’re gonna be happy with our Rex or not. It’s a really fun.

Hannah Oliver Depp 37:37
I’m gonna be like, yeah, for the next two years thinking. I came up with one.

Traci Thomas 37:41
And for everyone who wants their question, read on the podcast, email, ask the stacks at the stacks. podcast.com. Okay, this is like probably the first question that everyone wants. Probably wanted me to ask. But here I am. 30 minutes, I’m asking you maybe the most obvious question. How do you decide what to stock in your bookstore?

Hannah Oliver Depp 38:01
Oh, my God. The the perennial question. Do you want the technical answer? Would you want my emotional answer? Or? I mean, both. Probably which one you?

Traci Thomas 38:08
Probably both. Why don’t you start with the technic? What do you do with the emotional answer? Okay.

Hannah Oliver Depp 38:13
Well, the emotional answer is a little bit technical and not like loyalty is a mission based bookstore. So general bookstores are kind of going for like, their number one thing is like, what’s going to sell and hopefully also isn’t good, right? Like, it’s like, you’re always trying to balance those few things. No matter what kind of bookstore you are, if you are

Traci Thomas 38:30
Turns out what’s gonna sell not always good.

Hannah Oliver Depp 38:36
Yeah, definitely true. definitely true. And in some cases, like, that’s okay. Because entertainment is wonderful and a value in and of itself. And sometimes you’re like, oh, no, it’s a garbage fire. So if you’re a mission based bookstore that helps you navigate that a little bit more to because you’d be like, Oh, I’m not selling American dirt in this store ever. It’s not happening. This is against the very reason my bookstore exists exists. The community has told me they feel like hurt by this and the community is what we’re here for. And so we are done like Bill and the story. A lot of times things are gray or area that that dough. And so for me, it comes down to a like gut reaction. How are my fields? How do my booksellers feel about it? And like Marie Kondo it like does it bring me joy? Is this something I am proud of? Someone walking in off the street and going I heard about loyalty or your window display looked interesting, or do you have a bathroom? And when they walk past these books on the shelf or see them on the display table, or whatever, are they intrigued? And am I proud to tell them this book is something I chose? Like, I like Sorry, it matters to me this store is like what I think my community is. So am I proud of that? You know, that’s that’s the gut. That’s the emotion The technical term is you Look at hundreds of 1000s of titles in catalogs that are getting bigger and bigger all the time. And publishers buy each other up and become one giant ball of conglomeration. Which is Ronald Reagan’s fault. That it is, you know, what stands out as you look through publishing catalogs with your on, you know, an online platform called Edelweiss. Where most publishers post their things occasionally, you know, you get sent a physical catalog to a lot of like smaller presses, and university presses still send physical catalogs, which I find delightful.

Traci Thomas 40:41
I love that. I’m like, ooh!

Hannah Oliver Depp 40:44
And, you know, my ADHD really appreciates a physical reminder of the thing I’m supposed to be doing. And, you know, you have a lot of trust in your book selling and book sales community, if I have a wonderful sales rep, who understands the mission of the store, the books, they highlight for me in that maybe 20,000, title catalog, or 2000, title catalog, right? Or, you know, 98 titles I looked at the other day, but the six that my sales rep highlighted for me, were so perfect for us. And then there was a couple that I was like, Oh, I’ll bring this in. And like ones and twos, and we’ll give it a try, right? Like, it is, again, a relationship based business. So if someone tells me, I think this is going to be huge, it might not be perfect for you, but maybe you want one on the shelf, or I think this is going to be huge, and it is perfect for you get a stock for the table, and I’m going to do my best to read it in advance. And if I don’t get to read it advance, at least read part of it, and have a sense of of what it is. And sometimes the thing they’re putting is god awful. And sometimes it’s fine. And sometimes I’m like, oh my god, someone is going to love this. But it’s not for me, you have to have like a really, really high level of self awareness about what your personal taste is, versus what your community’s taste is. And one of the best things you can do is listen to your booksellers. If you’re lucky enough to have people on staff, if you’re not doing it solo, or with only a couple, you know, maybe there’s some stores that are like, you know, one person most days and then occasionally a volunteer on the weekends or some, you know, high school interns or, you know, I’m not saying you don’t listen to those people, but you know, there’s people who work at loyalty, who have very different tastes than me, and I love to have them. Tell me what I’m missing.

Traci Thomas 42:37
Yeah. But okay, so you so books are coming out, you know, they’re coming, you’re like, Okay, we’re gonna order 10 of these two of these, one of this, because of the sales rep, the books hit the shelf. And then people start coming in the bookstore and they’re asking you about a book you don’t have, are you then like, Okay, we need to go in and order five of these because we keep getting asked about this. And then when you sell out of a book, is it automatically renewed? Or do you have to go in and be like, we want to order more of these for the shot? Like how does the process of actually like once you because you guys are guessing? You’re like this is what we think is good as an educated guess.

Hannah Oliver Depp 43:15
It is like if someone willing to read a stock pic for this to pull it out. It is right? It is magic. It is not a science is the only thing that was fully true in that period. Simon Schuster-

Traci Thomas 43:25
most so then once you start to actually have books that have gone on sale, because a lot of this is being done before the books are ever in the world says six to

Hannah Oliver Depp 43:34
nine months in advance sometimes like You’re like Right, totally. Well, yeah, totally in advance.

Traci Thomas 43:40
So then books start coming out into the world people start coming in asking you about things. How do you then decide what you want to re up? Versus like, Okay, we’re gonna sell through this and kind of just be done with this or like, this one selling like hotcakes is there like an auto rebuy? Or like, how does that process work?

Hannah Oliver Depp 43:58
Oh my god, what a sane system it would be if there was an auto rebuy. Um, so a fun fact about independent book selling is again, I’ve said this a lot. There’s no money. This affects things in ways that you might not think about such as there is no point of sale system that is central to every bookstore or is the monopoly in every bookstore, there’s a few standouts. But part of it is because there’s not a lot of money in making tech for independent bookstores. Publishers are on a very antiquated ordering system is basically relative to a fax machine. And so to get a computer system and inventory system to talk to the publishing inventory system, it’s messy. So I use a fabulous point of sale system called earbud. That is dope and has like all the detail and reporting that I love and it is fairly good at reordering so it you know runs a list of what I’ve sold. I have some minimum set in there on certain titles, either because their stock picks or or because they’re like our perennial for inventory? And it’s just, you know, does that suggest and I go through and say I or a supervisor goes through and is like, yes, no, yes, no, yes. And it’ll say you can read it different ways you can do like suggested ordering. So it might be like you sold so so this may be get eight to 10. Or it could just be like auto, you know, there’s another import that’s just like you sold to bring into, and then I can adjust and I can send those orders off to publishers, they will arrive anyways in between, for a variety of reason, shipping is still not back to what it was. People have closed warehouses, condensed warehouses open new where you know, it’s all over the place. But if the publishers warehouse is in Indiana, that is coming to me in like two weeks, if the publisher has warehouses in Maryland, obviously, that’s gonna be fast. And this is like the bookstores who are in your neck of the woods tracing or like rolling their eyes, because so much is like East Coast or like in the middle centric, to like,

Traci Thomas 45:57
I’m aware, you’re aware?

Hannah Oliver Depp 45:59
Yeah I think so. Like, they’re like, Oh, two weeks, that’s nice. Which is why some of us also rely very heavily on wholesalers, who are positioned throughout the country more so and can get us the book faster, but we lose even more of our discount on that. So, you know, without getting into, you know, not allowed to share, you know, actual numbers. It is definitely like it’s better to order from a publisher. But sometimes you want the book faster, because it is a customer request, or it’s selling really hot now, but it’s not going to be in two weeks, because people have moved on to a new IP book, right? So you might split the difference and get some from a publisher and some from the wholesaler or you’ll get your special orders that are customer requests from the wholesaler and then not or it’s a last minute, you know, event book condition. So you’re gonna get some of those from wholesaler. Whereas you’re here planning events months in advance, you’re gonna order them from the publisher. So how you restock again, not a science, but you’re you’re looking at it. And yeah, you’re trying to figure out, you know, we are not like, the bipoc Queer bookstore is not necessarily the Target store for Prince Harry’s memoir spare. But like, obviously, people pre ordered that for me, right? And pre orders, every author will tell you this 1000 times and they are 100% Correct. If you preorder a book, I know that then at least two other people are probably going to be asking for it, right? Unless it’s like insanely obscure, or anyone and sometimes we love an obscure that tells me something, right? Like someone when someone went to the trouble to preorder this. So there’s going to be walkins too, or people who preorder the night before book comes out and then walk in on at opening and they’re like, where’s my, like, you planted this at midnight yesterday. But, you know, all of that is like very helpful that I ended up that initial order. And then you watch it and you go like, okay, was this just like the Book of the Week? Or did it also sell, you know, a lot. And some of it is like chicken or the egg? Like, is this still selling because it’s the thing I have stocked up on the table or is the selling because people came in looking for it? Yeah, and it’s hard. And that is you know, part of it is just like trying to watch your stock really carefully and make sure you’re not super stocked up on something that’s not moving. And when that happens, you want to decide like isn’t not moving because I’ve got it in weird place because it needs a staff pick or because genuinely like it’s moment is over and we want to keep a couple on the shelf and keep recommending it but we don’t need a giant stack of it anymore. And yeah, that’s like a huge huge huge part of the job and when you take your eye off the ball it can really can really mess up the business side of things and also like make your customers kind of frustrated.

Traci Thomas 48:50
Yeah, we’ve been talking so much we’ve literally like almost run out of time to talk about we’re gonna squeeze- two books you love one book you hate

Hannah Oliver Depp 48:58
Two books I love I feel like I should be like harder than this but I’m not I’m just gonna go with my gut which is Yeah, I guess he’s home going is like still my like Golden Book it like I’m just like, nothing will ever make me feel. I love that. It took me love, love, love transit and the kingdom as well. But yeah, that was like the book. And then I recently reread blood child by Octavia Butler. There’s a relatively new edition out from seven stories press is beautiful hardcover, an indie press that I love. They do incredible, like gorgeous books that Octavia Butler deserves. And they did it before she like became something that like was mainstream again. And it has an introduction by Jasmine ward that is of course fabulous. So that’s two books that I adore. books that I hate, that I hate. I hate so many books I love about Aren’t you? I think it’s okay to hate books. It’s okay to be really, really mad at books. The first book that I ever threw across the room was 1984. It made me so mad and I don’t think it delivered on its promise. And I will hold to that I hate Moby Dick with a fiery passion. It’s like my biggest tension between me and all of my book selling friends. I’m like, I’m like, Melville needed an editor. This is too long, and his best work is to short stories.

Traci Thomas 50:28
So there’s there’s two. I love it. What about what are you reading right now?

Hannah Oliver Depp 50:33
Oh, what I’m reading right now. I’m in like a rereading phase actually. And I am rereading sick by Tracy cotton Macmillan. Yeah, I am, like, just like essays or essays. And short stories are really where my brains out right now. It’s either that or just like massively long epic fantasy. There’s like nothing in between. So I’m loving that. And I’m also making my way through rereading Beverly Jenkins series that takes place like in the West. So it is like black cowboys. And I was like, didn’t know about black cowboys didn’t know that was an option that we had very into that takes place I should say old west like like just before reconstruction. So it’s a really fascinating American history slash sexy time slash black cowboys and cowgirls. I love it. Big fan.

Traci Thomas 51:29
You are inundated with books. You’re currently walking through the bookstore looking around as you’re answering my questions, which I’m obsessed with. For people who can’t see this. Only I can see this.

Hannah Oliver Depp 51:38
I don’t know how to hold still.

Traci Thomas 51:40
It’s a thing. It’s okay. It’s okay. How do you decide what to read next? Yeah,

Hannah Oliver Depp 51:47
I it’s a combination of like, do Am I hosting an event for this book, which is a common reason that something will move up my TBR. Or, again, obviously, like recommendation from a customer or a friend, or another bookseller, all of those definitely play into a part and like what the towering stack by my bedside and on the floor and next to my couch. What gets moved to the top. But generally, I am a multi reader, like I need to read multiple things at once. So I tend to pick like, across a couple of different genres of fiction and at least one nonfiction at a time. And then it then it’s mood reading because I spent so long in academia, forcing myself to read things that I do not do that. I read according to taste and vibe and mood, and it’s very healing.

Traci Thomas 52:34
What’s the last really good book someone recommended to you?

Hannah Oliver Depp 52:38
Oh, god, that’s a great question. Um, the last really great book someone recommended to me that I just had not like did was not on my radar. And then this is actually a perfect bookselling example. And, you know, not necessary gonna be surprised when I tell you the secret lives of church ladies. Like that was a book that like we did not have, you know, on preorder, and then like is pretty much always on the bestseller list at our store now. Not so good.

Traci Thomas 53:13
Are there things that you wish were different about your reading life?

Hannah Oliver Depp 53:16
Yes, I think I wish that I was a less moody reader. I wish and like I’m pretty good at recognizing it now of being like, it’s not that that looks bad is that I was not in the mood. Like I’ve definitely come a long way in my relationship with myself about it. But yeah, I’m a very, very moody reader.

Traci Thomas 53:40
Do you have an ideal reading setup?

Hannah Oliver Depp 53:43
Yes. Um, I either on my floor, surrounded by a lot of pillows, or I do have like a big yellow armchairs that I love to be in, usually curled up with a blanket, my dog nearby and two to five beverages.

Traci Thomas 54:07
Okay. I’m a multi beverage person myself, like I need the hot beverage. I need the COVID they need a bubbly beverage. Yeah, for sure. I have a question on here that I’m not going to ask you because Oh, it’s, it’s what’s your favorite bookstore but I’m just gonna plug loyalty again. I feel like you’ve sort of I feel like sort of feels like that’s gotta be the pick. What’s the last book you purchased?

Hannah Oliver Depp 54:31
The last book I purchased was dreaming in Europe by Audrey Lorde which is like an essay collection of like, like her essays and speeches and writing she did while lecturing in Germany and elsewhere in Europe, and it’s awesome and thought provoking and hello readable. And I bought it at last city which is here in DC and a US new bookstore run by my friend Adam.

Traci Thomas 54:58
Love that. Okay, this is awesome. be round and then I gotta get you out of here because I’ve gone over your time. Sorry. Last book that made you laugh.

Hannah Oliver Depp 55:06
I mean, Samantha Ruby’s latest. So good.

Traci Thomas 55:09
I just finished that this week, last book that made you cry.

Hannah Oliver Depp 55:14
I’m reading a book that I cannot remember the author of, and I will message it to you, but it’s called belonging. And it’s like black people belonging, in actually Europe again, and I was reading it in prep for some travel and there was just some really beautiful passages and conversation about what it is to belong in a place that you maybe don’t originally feel so welcome.

Traci Thomas 55:35
And the last book were that made you angry.

Hannah Oliver Depp 55:40
The last book that made me angry was actually I think it’s a book I’ve been meaning to read forever and it’s called chokehold and it’s about black men. Yeah. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 55:51
Last book that you felt like you learned a lot.

Hannah Oliver Depp 55:55
Oh, that was definitely the dreaming and Europe reading that I learned. I was just like, it was some books your mind are just like, you’re you’re connecting, I feel all the parts of my brain connecting and really like growing and, you know, you’re making those neuro pathways be traveled?

Traci Thomas 56:13
What about a book you feel proud to have read? Oh,

Hannah Oliver Depp 56:17
um, a book I feel proud to have read is called our red book. And it’s first person accounts about reproductive justice access from women all over the country from all sorts of different walks of life, different abilities. Yeah, it was really, really incredible. And I’m just like, proud to have read it. Because I get like a little like, I don’t love a B horror. I get really stressed thinking about access to care, because it’s so important to me and my community. But yeah, these were people from all over the spectrum of life talking about it. And it was just a really beautiful edited book.

Traci Thomas 56:58
What about a book that you still cannot believe you have not read?

Hannah Oliver Depp 57:02
Oh, so many. So many, you know, I would say a book that has been looking at me for years on my shelf is tar baby by Toni Morrison. Like it like it like looks at me in the morning and is like hey.

Traci Thomas 57:20
You ready?

Hannah Oliver Depp 57:22
Yeah. Like no, I’m not. I’m not okay. Not today.

Traci Thomas 57:26
If you could assign a book to high school students, what would you pick?

Hannah Oliver Depp 57:30
Um, oh, can I pick two? No, I have to pick one. I don’t care. I think students should have to read the ones in Friedrichshain by th white because it talks about like what you want from a society in a really like entertaining way because King Arthur is entertaining. And then I wish we could design them. We do this too. We free us by Miriam Palma, which like just like is both imaginative and takes really seriously the ideas behind abolition and what dreaming can really mean.

Traci Thomas 58:01
Love, love, love, love. I guess this is actually last to last two. One is who would you want to write the book of your life?

Hannah Oliver Depp 58:12
I was I never thought it was four people answer these questions on your show. And I’m like, I’ve got an answer for that. Now.

Traci Thomas 58:19
I rarely ask, I rarely asked this question because writers always are like, I’m gonna write my memoir. And I’m like, okay, that’s not the fucking question.

Hannah Oliver Depp 58:26
Um, you know, I I want to say something out there because I think she would make it really funny. But also I think my life is really funny. And a lot of times I have that like trauma kid saying where you tell a story that you think is hilarious. And then you look over and people are like, Oh, no. So I think she would do a good job. I really do. I think she would. I think we share a sense of humor.

Traci Thomas 58:57
I love that. I would, I would read it for sure. Okay, last one. If you could require the current president of the United States to read one book, what would you want it to be?

Hannah Oliver Depp 59:09
You all can’t see it. But I just gave her a look.

Traci Thomas 59:10
I’m serious. Like I feel like I’m getting sent to the principal’s office.

Hannah Oliver Depp 59:15
Yeah, see, we’re absolutely getting sent to the principal’s office. You know what, there is a book? Yes, mod Newton. I just literally was like, Who is this by? This is not necessarily but off the top of my head. It’s a book called ancestor trouble. And it takes seriously and with personal stories, but also with larger conversation about what generational racism if you are a white person in America means what what did what did your daddy do? What did your grandpa do and how is that affecting the people around you right now? Um, I love it. I think it’s really beautifully written. And I think it’s a way of approaching the topic that we don’t see enough responsibility We from we put it on us. And as Tony Morrison said, This is not my problem. This is the your problem. So you think this is a youth thing? And yeah, I think that would be a really excellent read.

Traci Thomas 1:00:14
Oh my gosh, I love it. You’re so good. I wish I could ask you all the questions because I know that you have answers for all of them. But this has been a conversation with Hannah Oliver Deb owner, creator of the loyalty bookstores in the DC area and Honda will be back at the end of this month. Let me pull up the date so I can get a nice clean out for that.

Hannah Oliver Depp 1:00:33
Yes. Oh, I should also say since February this year, Christine bolo is co owner of loyalty with me. So very excited about having having a person in my corner. Who loves with the mission as much.

Traci Thomas 1:00:47
You would know Christine, cuz she did best books of 2020 with us. So if you listen to that episode, that’s Christine. Yeah. She also does events at loyalty, which is loyalty as the best events by HANA. We’ll be back on Wednesday, June 28. For our episode on Oreo by Fran Ross. I’m so excited. I’ve never read the book. You suggested it. It’s a brilliant suggestion. I just cannot even wait 1970s satire I don’t know anything about it. So I’m really really excited

Hannah Oliver Depp 1:01:17
It is a fav you’re gonna love it or hate it maybe and then

Traci Thomas 1:01:23
it’s gonna go I hope I hope I hate it then we can talk about it. You all can go order some books from loyalty. I’m leaving you links to everything in the show notes. So if something that Hana talks about today sparked your fancy order it from loyalty, and it might take two weeks. Okay, just chill out people.

Hannah Oliver Depp 1:01:40
It’ll be fine.

Traci Thomas 1:01:41
And you have too many books on your shelf anyways, so it’s fine. You know, I get a lot of thank you so much for being here.

Hannah Oliver Depp 1:01:49
Thank you so much for letting me ramble on for so long. Crazy. I’d loved it.

Traci Thomas 1:01:53
A dream. And everyone else we will see you in The Stacks.

Alright y’all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening. And thank you again to Hannah for being my guest. Hannah will be back on June 28 For our book club discussion of Oreo by Fran Ross. If you love the show and want insight access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks to join the snacks pack. Make sure you’re subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you’re listening to Apple podcast, be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from the snacks. Follow us on social media at the sex pod on Instagram and Tik Tok and the stats pod underscore on Twitter and check out our website the sacks podcast.com This episode of the stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. Our graphic designer is Robin MacWrite. The Stacks is created and produced by me Traci Thomas.

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