Ep. 251 The Meaning of Mariah Carey by Mariah Carey — The Stacks Book Club (Chelsea Devantez) – Transcript

Chelsea Devantez, host of the Celebrity Book Club podcast, returns to discuss our February Book Club pick The Meaning of Mariah Carey by Mariah Carey with Michaela Angela Davis. In breaking down her memoir, we get into Mariah’s relationships, her experience of race and her dynamic with her parents. We love Mariah here! And we couldn’t help but weigh in on Prince Harry’s new memoir Spare, since he and the royals happen to come up a lot in this book.

Be sure to listen to then end of today’s episode to find out what our book club pick will be in February 2023.


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Traci Thomas 0:08
Welcome to The Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I’m your host Traci Thomas, and it is our first book club episode of the year. Today we’re digging into Mariah Carey’s autobiography, The Meaning of Mariah Carey written with Michaela Angela Davis. And we get to dig in with the queen of celebrity memoirs herself, our returning guests Chelsea Devantez you have to check out Chelsea’s podcast celebrity book club with Chelsea Devantez to hear the best takes on all of the celebrity memoirs every other week. Today we’re talking about Mariah Carey her relationship to her family her relationship to her mixed race identity her famous lovers, her meltdowns everything. So there are some minor spoilers on this one. Also because it is January 2023. And Spare by Prince Harry is very much the moment he does make a few appearances in today’s episode. It really only feels right. Listen to the end of today’s episode to find out what our February book club pick will be. Quick reminder every single thing we talked about on each episode of the stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love the show and you want more of it please please please go to patreon.com/thestacks and join the stacks pack. It’s a great way to support my work and creating the stacks each week and what’s more you earn perks for yourself like our monthly virtual book club, our top notch discord community discounts on merch and of course you get a monthly bonus episode. So you win the stacks wins because truthfully there is no way I can make the show without the stacks pack had to patreon.com/thestacks to join. I want to give a shout out some of our newest members Christina and Tiffany Vanessa, Harry Cassius, Maggie Kate Coleman, Nicolas Francis havy, Teresa toll and Anthony acampo. Thank you all so much. And of course, thank you to the entire stacks pack for holding the show down every single week. All right now it is time for my conversation with Chelsea Devantez about Mariah Carey’s memoir, The Meaning of Mariah Carey. Again, be warned there are some minor spoilers here.

All right, everybody. We’re back. I’m joined again by the wonderful Chelsea Devantez. And we are talking today for The Stacks book club about The Meaning of Mariah Carey, by Mariah Carey with Michaela Angela Davis. Chelsea, welcome back.

Chelsea Devantez 2:24
I’m so happy to be here. I’ve been looking forward to this all month.

Traci Thomas 2:28
I’m really excited that you’re back. I’m really excited. We’re talking about this book. My biggest flaw as a podcast host is that I always forget to tell people what the book is about. So I’m going to do that now before we dive in. But it’s a celebrity memoir. So if you’re not familiar with that idea, then you’ll need this. But everyone else you probably know what this book is about. It’s about Mariah Carey’s life. And it starts in her childhood and she talks about growing up and then she gets into her celebrity and then it takes us to the present, which in this case is like 2019, 2020 So I think the book came out in 2020. So that’s what the books about right here at famous pops tonight.

Chelsea Devantez 3:00
Can I also offer a summary? It is what the true screenplay of glitter should have been. So glitter is like very very close to Maria’s life and this book journey and then it has some like really corny twists and turns I’m a glitter stand by the way all right hard for that movie.

Traci Thomas 3:22
I’ve never seen it because I love Mariah so much that I was scared to see it like I thought it would ruin her for me.

Chelsea Devantez 3:22
You’ll love it. So I Yeah, so I also had never seen it because I was like I don’t want to watch some trash movie. And read Mariah’s book and put on glitter and thought it was so great to have just like a fun camping movie to watch. I think it was in the middle of quarantine too. It’s fantastic. And it’s an incredible, it’s fantastic as in like if you love like, fun trash, it’s fantastic. And it’s a great accompaniment to the book because you can see that that what the book is is what glitter was supposed to be and then ethically failed to be.

Traci Thomas 4:04
Got it. Okay. Okay, I’ve heard the glitter plug. Just gotta get that off the top. We’re talking glitter people. So we always start here, generally. What did you think of the book?

Chelsea Devantez 4:16
I loved it. I thought it was a gift. Going back and rereading it. You know, it was the third episode I did on my podcast. And I attempted to have it be the first because it had come out like days before. But I was so new to podcasting that I did a three hour recording. And they were like, ma’am, no, ma’am at try again. So going back and revisiting it was such a good reminder of just how great of a celebrity memoir this one is. Yeah, given that I’ve maybe done like 60 books since you know, I think it’s lyrical. I think it’s stunning. And I think it’s reclaiming a reclamation of a narrative that our culture needed.

Traci Thomas 4:58
Yeah. I loved it. it I mean, as I said, and we can get into this more Mariah Carey is like one of the most important celebrities to me like or was as a child because I’m also mixed. And I have a black cat and a white mom. And I just remember she meant a lot to my dad when I was a kid. And so like, it was always like a Mariah Carey. She’s so beautiful. She’s so talented. And she’s black. Like, she’s back. She’s like, you know, like that she was not some white girl. Like, it was so important to my dad. And so she was so important to me in that way. And I’m glad that this book like I what I think the biggest takeaway for me from this book was like a lot of the stuff on race that she did talk about. Overall, I thought it was great. There are some structural issues and some accountability issues that I think we could get into later.

Chelsea Devantez 5:42
I’m excited to hear those, I will say, hearing what you said about how much she’s meant to you and your dad. And how that had to deal with her. Also, being black would like would mean so much to her. Because in this book, yeah. Her feelings about Tommy Mottola. You know white washing her and not seeing that side of her it are so intense. So I think I think she would love to know that, that people still knew and I still it still was a part of her story in some places.

Traci Thomas 6:09
Yeah, I mean, it was, you know, obviously, I have a lot of mixed friends. Because when you’re mixed, you know, you have mixed friends, because your parents are like, Oh, we should hang out because we’re also interracial. And she was like, the most important woman or girl, all of us, like, dream lover. Are you kidding me? There’s nothing nothing tops dream lover for a mixed girl from the 90s. You know, that’s it. That’s the list.

Chelsea Devantez 6:30
I mean, the ODB fantasy mix is what kicked off our wedding. You know what I mean? That like. And we were my husband and I were in an argument. He was like, it has to be dream lover. I’m like, it has to be fantasy. You know? Yeah. She’s, she’s such an incredible artist. And her letting everyone know, like I wrote those songs. And I’m an actual musician is a big part of this book. And I did not know that side of her.

Traci Thomas 6:56
I didn’t know that either.

Chelsea Devantez 6:57
They’re like, Oh, I wrote some music too. And I think you know, very judgy very sexist. You’re like, okay. And you read this book and go, yes.

Traci Thomas 7:05
Yes, you did. You wrote it. And like, there’s this great moment in the book where she’s like, you know, just getting started. She’s 18, or whatever, running around New York City and her flappy shoes. And she’s like, talking to a singer who she’s doing backup singing for and she’s like the singer who’s more established. It’s like, Oh, I love that song. I’d love to use it. And Mariah is like, no, I’m sorry. This is my song. And I know it’s a good song. And I like I love working with you. I need the money, but I don’t need it that bad. Like, I know my worth. And I think that’s just such an important moment. And like such a true I think that that story like embodies so much of who Mariah Carey is is like, you might think that I’m cute and dumb. And yes, I can sing. But also, I know that I’m great. Like, I know that. Yeah, I know my shit. And you can’t take that away from me, no matter what, no matter who you are.

Chelsea Devantez 7:55
You can’t take that away from me.

Traci Thomas 7:58
Famous lyric. Mariah is anthem sounds.

Chelsea Devantez 8:01
Exactly. You know. And I think the thing I love about this book is how detailed it is about what gave her that sense of I know I’m great, which is that her childhood was so horrifically traumatic, that music was quite literally all she had, whether it was her joy, or the one skill, like coming out of her body that she was like, Oh, this is mine. It was the only path she had to get out of her terrible, like impoverished abusive childhood. And I do think it’s like so easy to say like, oh, just like know your worth girlfriend. Yeah, that I mean, like, Don’t let anyone step on you. And I think to know that, like, that’s how, that’s, it’s not what has to happen. But like, those are the extreme circumstances that led her to 18 years old be like, this is my song, and it’s mine, because it’s my only chance.

Traci Thomas 8:53
Yeah. So I want to talk let’s start with her childhood. First and foremost, the fact that she played Hottel in Fiddler on the Roof is just truly one of my great joys in life. I am a Fiddler on the Roof. Stan. That song is beautiful. And I was so excited when not only I heard the story, but I saw the picture of her in her little costume singing in microphone. I knew I love Mariah but I didn’t know that I was gonna love her even more.

Chelsea Devantez 9:18
Yeah, you know, there’s a Facebook group of all those theater kids being like, who were there that year all going Do you remember that? Like one girl came in and started and then left the camp and never got back? That was Mariah Carey.

Traci Thomas 9:32
There’s old Facebook group of them just being sad.

Chelsea Devantez 9:36
Yeah, yeah. And in wonderment of like that one summer as kids that was my God.

Traci Thomas 9:41
And also I also had a cat named Morris as a child, so I feel like really connected to her. Um, one of the things that I took away from her childhood, obviously very horrible, but the thing that I never loved about Mariah, like her music was that she had all these fucking anthems that were like, you can’t take this away from me. Hiro, like all these really like empowering anthems. But in reading this book, I was like, this is exactly right. She wrote all of these songs because she was in like this darkness and despair and needed it for herself. And it’s made me love the songs more. I can’t stop listening to Mariah xantham

Chelsea Devantez 10:16
Oh, yeah. And the album that came out with this book is just so beautiful. I love it. As a kid, you were like, I’m looking for bops.

Traci Thomas 10:23
I’m looking for bots. I’m mopping up emotions. I’m looking for a daydream I can do vision of love. I want to vibe honey is my number one. And she was like giving me all these ballads about how horrible things are and how you’ll get make it through. And I’m like, No, honey, like I want to body raw.

Chelsea Devantez 10:40
That is so funny. were flipped on that. I was like, my crying queen. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 10:49
So I want to know what you thought about the mom and the dad because they sort of get like very specific edits in this book. And like she has very differing opinions about them. And I’m curious what you what what that was like for you reading that?

Chelsea Devantez 11:03
Yeah. So I have a very strong take on this, which is that her mom, her mom was an opera singer. The the woman who was supposed to make it right, who believes that Julliard went to Juilliard yelled at Mariah, like, you can’t sing like me when she’s just a child. So a lot of like jealousy, a lot of poison. And then her mom, which we’ll get into, I’m sure does a lot of like, truly horrific career ending things towards Mariah, and emotionally horrible things. And then it’s kind of brilliant, because for the rest of the book, Riot quietly hates women. And she I think she still does like she’s just overall not a fan. Yeah. And you can see it’s because she her trust was so like, she just sees her mom and all these women. I think it like bleeds into like, why she hates JLo so much. It’s like a woman copy for her. At the end of the book. She just goes into this chapter that’s like 10 men’s names and how great these men are. There’s not one for women.

Traci Thomas 12:01
She does do the Aretha and the Diana Ross.

Chelsea Devantez 12:04
Yeah, but those are like musical respect. Yes, they’re not friend are not tradable stories. It’s just like, I respect artists. And I think she does that whole section because she’s trying to tell younger artists to respect her. I agree. Like this is what you get when you respect women, Ariana Grande like, I think that’s what she’s saying. Right? And then she because her dad is gone for a lot of her life. She then comes to this huge forgiveness Christian journey with him at the end.

Traci Thomas 12:31
Surprise for you. Huge surprise, no idea. I had huge no idea.

Chelsea Devantez 12:37
No idea. And like, it doesn’t really show up anywhere

Traci Thomas 12:42
else. Yeah, it’s like a pastor into the dad and then it doesn’t come back. And it’s not really there before.

Chelsea Devantez 12:49
Yeah. And then like with her dad at the end, though, it’s like God, God, and like, reverence for father mother’s the Wicked Witch, and which I have to say like, both of them were quite wicked. Yes. But she was able to find all this love for her dad and forgiveness for her dad. I just think it’s, it’s really kind of poisoned her her other relationships.

Traci Thomas 13:09
Well, and I think like, it was really interesting to me, because even in the beginning, before we get to how terrible both of her parents were to her, she frames her dad in a much better light from the beginning. And also, she talks about her blackness a lot in the book, and not on her dad is her black parent, and she you know, continually identifies as black she continually talks about, like her love of hip hop, which was, you know, back especially then was like, this is a black thing. You know, like, there wasn’t there were a few whites but it wasn’t like Macklemore winning Grammys, you know, it was it was a black people thing. And I feel like because her dad left and disappeared and wasn’t bugging her but also wasn’t there and then basically like had been following her and had like, because when he’s dying, she like goes to his house. And he has like a scrapbook of all of her

Chelsea Devantez 14:04
That’s that’s all the fucked up fathers. I have to point out by the way, like there’s so many memoirs they’re like, I never met my dad and the fairy Andy had a scrapbook it’s like this motherfucker could scrapbook your face but could not call like this isn’t a beautiful thing. Like, why not a Jets father’s like, kept every article. I’m like, this isn’t a good thing,

Traci Thomas 14:21
Right. That’s not being a dad does being a super fancy. Yeah, but I feel like for her a person who is like so desperate to be loved and to be seen and to be told that she’s done a good job and is a good girl. Right? She keeps saying how she’s stuck at 12 years old. So for someone to like love her work and be proud of her is all she’s ever wanted. And so she’s able to forgive everything because –

Chelsea Devantez 14:45
And he’s proud of her in a way that her mom is not. She takes her mom to all these grand things and her mom will just kind of be quiet or neutral or embarrassing herself or horribly embarrassing. And I think what you call it out to about like that. It does feel like she’s sort of fighting this battle of like when she came out onto the scene. I mean, there’s people when I first bookclubs this books that they didn’t know she was Black still Yes, that was 2020 Yeah and so I think she’s like so mad that she was like introduced on the scene purposefully ambiguous purposely whitewashed, that she’s like coming back for it and I do think that has made it like you I think what you’re saying is like also closer to her dad because that’s the side she missed out on because he was gone.

Traci Thomas 15:28
Yeah. And and because she does reconnect with his, her cousin Vinnie, who is on his side who has all the family you know, arc she’s like the family archivist. So she has all the pictures and she knows about where the church is and this and that and so I think also the connection to that family because her white family disowned her mom so there’s like no connection there there’s no family history and I’m I would assume that if you’re really as famous as Mariah Carey, you don’t have a lot of close people in your life so to have family and to have like roots and to be able to be like these are my people is probably even more meaningful than I could fathom. And it’s something that’s like hugely important to me personally but like if you’re that untethered in the world and your actual family members are atrocious monsters to you like having that I think you probably relate to that even more in retrospect.

Chelsea Devantez 16:19
I completely agree. And I will also say, you know, I am not I am not my famous or Mariah, like, at all but the thing I can really relate to is like, when you have like a broken family who’s like gone through so much like you, like the moments of my life where I find someone who has like a picture or like, like basically sense to make the senseless sensible. Yeah, and I’m finding that cousin finds people Yeah, I totally relate to that feeling of how I don’t know it’s like a very like euphoric relief because you didn’t have you were just so scattered from the whole time you never had those like Christmases Christmases, specifically-

Traci Thomas 16:56
Specifically, which you’ve made up for with an iconic album and everybody loves the quote one Christmas song, but holy night is her is her. Oh, yeah, the best one I’m album when she hits the note at the end. It’s just All I Want For Christmas Is he was very cute, but she is giving what needs to be given on holy night in a way that no one ever has, and perhaps ever will. Again, I just want to go out and I don’t even like Christmas music. So. Okay, I praise. Praise. I told you. So we’re recording this, like a few days after both of us has finished spare a memoir by Prince Harry. And it’s all I can think about and I told you, I wanted to bring it up on this and that I was like, I know exactly how and here we are. One of the things that this book, and I read this book right before I read Prince Harry’s memoir, and right after I watched the Harry and Megan documentary, and one of the things that this book really drove home for me when it comes to race is how full of shit Meghan Markel is when she talks about how she’s a bit biracial, and she’s mixed and she’s a person of color but refuses to say that she’s black, or that she’s had any black experience or understand any of that, and that’s her mother’s experience. And that’s not hers. When you look at someone like Mariah Carey, who truly, truly can pass for white, and someone who many people, like you said, still don’t know as a black woman. Then you look at Meghan Markel, who’s black as fuck, I don’t care what she says, You’re not fooling anyone, Megan, but that there’s this desire to be like closer to whiteness, where Mariah Carey has this desire to be closer to blackness and like this longing, and I just couldn’t get those two women specifically out of my head because I’ve been like, deeply saturated in their stories recently. And then I was like, listen to this episode of Meghan Merkel’s podcast and they talk about race. And it’s really interesting because Meghan sort of pushes this like we’re both mixed and it’s not exactly black and not exactly why memorize like yeah, we are mixed. But she doesn’t quite go so far as being like, I’m not black she’s like it’s a different experience because people see me differently but I just really respect how Mariah is like, I have had a lot of privileges and a different experience, but I’m still a black woman. And like she never ever ever had to own her blackness if she didn’t want to and I think like especially in the 80s and 90s when being ambiguous was so important like that that choice for her to like associate with black people. I just it makes me respect her on like a such a different level than I did before. I don’t know I yeah,

Chelsea Devantez 19:34
I think that’s such a beautiful point. I completely agree. I will also offer this in opposition, though. I be here’s it here’s my thought on Megan Markel. I think she was so so so drawn to whiteness in Yeah, also like not even to falter like you just said like it’s the 90s it’s the early aughts. Like Yeah, nothing is more in than it being white blond hair and like blue stick in it oh

Traci Thomas 20:01
my gosh couldn’t lift in

Chelsea Devantez 20:03
son lives I lived in southern beach. So I totally get how and also she’s like going for like the Hollywood route. Yeah. And so a part of me wonders if Megan has a lot of guilt about how she spent her life. Not like only attempting, I don’t want to say attempting to be white, but like really attempting to, to assimilate, right and like not be seen as this. And now when it’s like England’s just so racist, like, you are so black, that she has to carry this torch for women of color and black woman that she has not does not have the experience, right, and perhaps has really negative experiences against like, we don’t know what you’re having. You know, I agree. And I wonder if I wonder if her all her kind of shittiness now, is her feeling guilty? It doesn’t make sense. Like she doesn’t deserve or doesn’t? Yeah. Or do you think it’s like she still wants to not own it?

Traci Thomas 21:01
I think she still wants to not own it. Yeah, that’s how I feel about it. Just based on whatever I’ve seen of her. But I also think like a thing about Meghan, and then we’ll go back to my but I have to talk about this. I’ve been like die portant a thing about Meghan, that I think a lot of people don’t quite put in context is her age and where she grew up, which is Los Angeles. And she grew up kind of like, you know, in mid city ish. And she’s, I think born in like, 1982 8381 82, something like that. Which means she’s 1011 12 When the Rodney King riots happen. You don’t not know about race. Yeah, yes. You know what I mean? Like she she passes this off of like, Oh, I’ve always been mixed. I’ve never had this experience. I’ve never even thought about my blackness because people don’t think I’m black and like this casual. I’ve never thought about it, but and then a few years later, is the OJ Simpson trial. And like, it’s formative years in your life. I’m younger than Megan. I was obsessed with what happened in LA in the 90s. I still am. It’s such an important thing to me. And I cannot imagine that if she was here at that time, which she was her high school is you know, Western, it’s right by it’s like you’re getting to Normandy, you know, like you’re getting it’s it’s the neighborhood, there’s smoke, it’s burning. Like, you can’t just not think about race. And she was raised by a black woman who seems to have some opinions about race, like the whole thing. It just

Chelsea Devantez 22:34
doesn’t her mom is on camera saying I never spoke to my daughter about being black, which actually is the first black woman I’ve ever known in my entire life. To say such a thing, like every Yeah, I mean, it’s like, this is the most thing. The most important thing you can tell a child Yes. Especially a mixed child. Yeah, like I it’s actually kind of that was but when her mom said that is when I was like, Okay, I think you were maybe raised in a household. Like that’s really surprising coming from her mom who would be dealing with a lot of racism.

Traci Thomas 23:04
Yeah, I mean, it’s just something to me. I just it is frustrating and confusing, because then you have someone like Mariah Carey, or like a Rashida Jones who also is very fair, but like, you know, she’s black even if her name was Emily Jones like she owns that you know, she’s other do

Chelsea Devantez 23:21
Do you remember that time? Remember that time when she was like on a Hollywood e carpet and there’s this E reporter and she’s like Rashida Jones coming in with a great tan. Were you just vacation name? And she’s like, I’m I’m black.

Traci Thomas 23:34
Right? That’s exactly right. Meghan Markel book. Yeah, I was in Italy, like, no. That’s called melanin like, that’s the thing for me.

Chelsea Devantez 23:42
I see what you’re saying is that you’re just kind of putting out her active

Traci Thomas 23:46
her act of association like yeah, in the documentary. She doesn’t refer to herself as blacks. Your first herself is woman of color as mixed as biracial. And it’s just like such an interesting interesting juxtaposition with these other women who are also black, who also are don’t

Chelsea Devantez 24:01
think that especially especially given the Listen, I find Megan Markel very cringe, I don’t even know how I’m defending her. Can’t you see a world where if she was in the documentary being like, I’m a very proud black woman. So many people would be like, No, you’re not and shut up. And like, you don’t deserve to say that.

Traci Thomas 24:19
I mean, yeah, but I feel like Mariah Carey probably has that too. And she still says it. I think, I think that by everybody that

Chelsea Devantez 24:26
Mariah Carey comes with, like, a cannon of tools to be like, and here’s why. And here’s how I believe in myself. And here’s how I know myself. Megan doesn’t have any of that. Oh, because you’re saying

Traci Thomas 24:35
you’re saying Megan is distancing herself now because she’s always distance herself and so she doesn’t want people to be like you’re not black enough?

Chelsea Devantez 24:43
Yes, because she wouldn’t have something to like reach back towards and I’d be like, No, see this and I do believe it would, if we’re talking about like PR benefit, like if she had like Mariah Carey has this incident where the kids are like, Hey, come over here Mariah and then they start calling her the N word and letting her No, I think if that happened in Megan’s history, it would be something that she’s pointing to in this documentary of like, I’ve dealt with this before. So I’m dealing with it again. Yeah. Whereas like, I should, none of that is there. And her mom’s like, yeah, I never had to say a word to it. So I do believe she’s just always distanced herself and doesn’t feel like she, she can.

Traci Thomas 25:18
Yeah, I mean, I could see I can see that logic for her. I would argue that like, you’re always black enough. If you’re black. Do you know what I mean? Like not, it’s not the history. Great. Well, that’s the history of America. Right? Like the one drop? Yeah, it’s like, if you’re black, if you’re one drop black and America, you are black, and that that means that black people will always be there for you unless you go on record, and act like you’ve never met a black person and you’d have no idea that you’re black at all, and you can’t believe anyone would say that. How dare they say you’re from Compton. Like that’s Meghan. worst insult being from Compton. Megan, it’s okay. That was shocking when I’m not even from Compton. It’s like okay, Megan, we know you’re not confident and like bogged

Chelsea Devantez 25:57
down and I and also like I do, I’m sorry, I know we’re on Harry for a minute but I also will cut back when he starts listing all the horrible press there is a part of me that’s like, dude, like this is like it did get really racist with her. But like, also like, at in those beginning stories, like you can move through this like, again, like, anyways, but to come back to your point. The The one thing I want to the one thing I want to focus on, though, with Megan is that, people you’re right, it’s the one drop rule in America. But people nowadays are vicious about that stuff. Right. And I and especially like, mixed women like whether you can own it or not own it and how brutal people aren’t. Yeah, for sure. For that’s what I see.

Traci Thomas 26:46
And for sure. And I guess my point is like, I think she’s taken the coward’s way out of this at every that and it’s just like to see that up against someone like Mariah, who, yeah, when she was mixed, you know, like when she was a kid and she was coming up there weren’t a lot of mix kids Megan’s of our generation, like, she’s an 80s night in LA and LA, like, everybody, everybody’s fucking mixed. You know, like, yeah, it’s just such an interesting juxtaposition and like to see the two of them in my mind as these like, hugely famous mixed women and how they handled it and how they embrace their blackness or not is just it was really, it’s just really interesting to me. Like, I just can’t stop thinking about it.

Chelsea Devantez 27:27
Yeah, I think that’s such a good point. I totally agree with that. She’s taken the coward’s way out every possible time. Yeah. And the way she while I think like, you know, discussing this anyone would have come for her no matter what she said. I think she handled it exceptionally for it. Yes. Agreed. Agreed. Okay, we’re gonna I’m also a little sad for her mom.

Traci Thomas 27:44
I’m sad for her mom to the whole thing is upsetting. Okay, we’re gonna take a quick break. We’re gonna come back hard in the Mariah. I’ll try to avoid Prince Harry might come up one more time, but I’m going to try. Okay, we’re back. Let’s talk about when she starts to get famous. I want to talk about Tommy Mottola. I want to talk about the boyfriends specifically we have to discuss Derek Jeter and some of the lies he may have told her that made it into the book because

Chelsea Devantez 28:08
Wait, what? Okay, tell me so

Traci Thomas 28:11
this is just this is just my opinion. Are you a sports person at all? Not in any way

Chelsea Devantez 28:15
actually. I learned a lot about I learned a lot about sports. When I confused Derek Jeter for a rod when reading this. Okay, got it. Got it. Got it. Which by the way the a rod JLo connection. Yes, I uh, Derek Jeter love this.

Traci Thomas 28:30
I don’t know who you’re talking about. I don’t know that woman you’re talking about the other one? Oh, sure. Yeah, we don’t we don’t know her. Um, so we’ll cut to the Derek Jeter live them. So Derek Jeter at the time and still is arguably one of the most famous American baseball players ever. Specifically, just he’s a famous famous famous New York Yankees the star mister New York City, okay. He is like the guy at this time. Alpha male, great player, beloved by everyone, whatever they meet, they start dating whatever they start hooking up and he’s like, I’ve always had a crush on you. I love your music. And then he tells her before every game I play anytime you need a friend which is true has to be alive because I just cannot imagine a baseball player pre gaming to a baseball game in a room with all of their dude friends playing a Mariah Carey ballad anytime you need a friend. People are listening to like wrap there was in a country like nowadays it’s like bad bunnies blasting and I just cannot

Chelsea Devantez 29:34
believe Do you know that? Like there’s cameras in the

Traci Thomas 29:38
I know a lot about baseball we have I have some family friends who are who are in bank baseball locker rooms. A huge sports fan. It’s just it’s just not it’s just not possible that like CC Sabathia is walking by fucking Derek Jeter in 1999. And he’s like, anytime you need a friend. Like I just don’t believe it. Like I just I think he was like,

Chelsea Devantez 29:56
Don’t you want to believe that fantasy? I

Traci Thomas 29:58
want to believe that Derek Jeter Er has so much game, but he was like, I’m gonna tell her this is my song and she’s gonna be like, yes, Derek. They

Chelsea Devantez 30:06
don’t remember it forever. And I

Traci Thomas 30:10
was like, oh my god, I was not listening to that. Now everybody thinks, like, it’s just the most insane. Pregame SOG ever. So it’s not a real lie. It’s just a lie that I believe in my head. I called my brother after I read that and I was like, Can I tell you a thing? And then you tell me if this makes any sense. My brother’s like, no.

Chelsea Devantez 30:29
That’s so funny.

Traci Thomas 30:31
I love and now I can’t stop listening to that song before I do everything. Now I’m pre gaming to just now it’s your lie has become your truth. And so when I get in a relationship with Mariah Carey, I will tell her this story, and hopefully make it a memoir. Okay, let’s talk about Tommy Mottola.

Chelsea Devantez 30:49
Yeah, what a great meeting story. I mean, the way this book is written is riveting, because she talks about like coming up the club stairs and making eye contact with them and knowing it was something intense coming for her. I love that she begrudgingly gives him her one demo that she carries around her purse when she goes to the club, and he leaves the club immediately. And she’s like, well, I’m going home and he had gone to his limo to listen. And he comes running back in to sign her and she’s already gone. It’s get what an incredible story

Traci Thomas 31:16
major Cinderella vibes right? see each other on the stairs. Then she leaves her glass slipper with him. You know, it’s like such a fairy Music Music fairy tale.

Chelsea Devantez 31:26
And one of the best chapter titles of all fucking time Sing sing. Oh, which is like this is this is the moment she’s become famous. SingSing and the house is also very near the prison. SingSing it’s very close to the and the house becomes a prison. It’s barely where Tommy Mattel I mean, incredible. So

Traci Thomas 31:44
good. So basically, it was a monster the whole time. And she was never attracted to him.

Chelsea Devantez 31:50
Yeah, and you know what I do? One of the things I really love about this book I wish she had gone into more is that I think it’s pretty clear that she is I mean, she’s just so traumatized. She’s so young. She needs a leg up all she cares about his music. Tommy Mottola is like I’d like to marry you. And I think she’s very smart lady was like you got it. Like no problem. doesn’t like him. It gets so bad she can’t escape them. I think the most fascinating part of all this that I wish had been in our history is how abusive he was and how much she wanted to act and how he always told her that if he if she ever left him she would fail Yeah, which is like something you know, abusers always fail without me and I’ll make sure you’ll perish she finally gets the courage to leave via via a Derek Jeter Dick inspiration. Yeah, she flies on that magic carpet she’s left and and that’s and glitter is hers. Glitter is like I will show you Tommy Mottola. I’m gonna put my album together I’m gonna be an actress like you never let me do blah blah blah. And then she does everything he promised or she would she failed she fails and and she not only fails but it’s like embarrassed like

Traci Thomas 32:59
pity i are off to its like

Chelsea Devantez 33:01
spiral and he’s behind the a lot of that like he’s sabotaging a lot of that music a lot of the movie like he’s making Jay load a star just to fuck with Mariah by the way I also love the JLo got a chance off the story. I mean, like, I love all these elements, but I it is so heartbreaking. What I almost called him Carson Kressley. That’s not his name Hudson Bay alum, Carson Daly. That that fucking prick by being such a macho early aughts. Yeah, Jack offer reminds me of every monster I went to high school with kind of just kind of shitting on her in that moment when she’s trying to promote a failing album, leads to an actual breakdown. And we never knew that it was because of an abusive man. Right. And we never knew that it was because Carson, like wanted to get a joke off about her TED. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. That was a monologue. But I’m so

Traci Thomas 33:58
no, I love it. I love it. Because, like, I again, I remember as a kid being like, I my parents are seven, we’re 17 and a half years apart in age. So like, this is not shitting on people who are different age, different ages. But I remember thinking like, He’s a scary older guy, in a way that it wasn’t like, this is I didn’t have any of this language I’m about to say. But it was like so clearly off to me. And now it’s like, of course, there’s the daddy issues. And like this man who has experience right, he knows what to do, which is what Kingmaker and that’s what she wants. It’s like, it’s so clear that she has this dream of being a music star. She wants to be in music, she knows that but she has no idea how to get there. And then she meets this guy who like knows what to do. He’s like, just do this. Yeah, Jan has the power and the power to do it wrong. And and I think you’re right

Chelsea Devantez 34:48
I mean, that’s that can be pretty hot. Yeah, I’m sure she found a lot of I mean,

Traci Thomas 34:52
listen, sometimes when I’m doing work for my like, for myself, I’m like, can someone just tell me what the fuck to do? Like just tell me what to Do just tell them if this is good or bad and like I would pay so much money for someone just to be like, Tracy go do this, you know like so I can yeah and

Chelsea Devantez 35:08
Tommy Matala would have been right there in your lifetime maybe like do this. Also, you’re so fat Yeah, to become atarax and

Traci Thomas 35:14
go talk to your security guard immediately.

Chelsea Devantez 35:16
Yeah, also, I’m videotaping you and like don’t have any fun don’t leave it. Enjoy the mansion. Have fun enjoy the mansion. Or I’ll give JLo your

Traci Thomas 35:25
perfect I love him already. But I do think like you said like, it was definitely a calculated decision for her of like, he wants to marry me. Great. Let’s do this. Because I want this more than anything else.

Chelsea Devantez 35:35
And also I can also see it really not being calculate like even though all that’s behind it, I can see that only being a hindsight thing and that like she has just escaped a truly brutal childhood. She’s still incredibly young. She’s looking for her big break and an older guy has come to sweeper offers Yeah, I

Traci Thomas 35:53
yeah, I think calculated isn’t right. I don’t mean calculated like, like, she was like sitting in the room. I’m going to do this but calculated as like, Okay. I like him. I’m not that into him. But this feels like the right thing to do. Like, I could see how she talked herself into it, I guess is what I’m saying. Not not I calculated,

Chelsea Devantez 36:09
subconsciously even I can see her being like, oh my god, I do love him use relationships you’ve been in Yeah, we’re like, God, I think back to this one relationship where I was like, Oh my God, what if we got married one day? And I’m like, I like cry laughing when I think of like, my judgment, that moment in time and like all the things I talked myself into. Yeah, I totally see that for her.

Traci Thomas 36:29
I also think this okay, this is not a ploy to talk about Prince Harry. I do think that the Princess Diana, that parallels to her like the wedding dress and she like brings her up so many times. And I thought that was so interesting, because of course in the 90s Princess Diana is this thing and then when she dies, she does become this like hugely tragic figure and I can just so see how Mariah felt like connected to that story because she was an American princess too, right? Like at that time, that’s what people called her before. Ashanti was the princess of hip hop and r&b. You know, Mariah was the princess. And yeah, I

Chelsea Devantez 37:03
she also does it with Marilyn Monroe and I left I have to say like, you know, loving Marilyn Monroe probably the entryway to basic bitch dumb. Do you know what I mean? Jimmy? Like I love Maryland. So I was sort of like okay, Mariah and through Mariah I went and got all of Maryland’s but did your little autobiography. Yeah, because I truly fell in love with the spirit of what Mariah wanted, which is what I think she also saw in Princess die, which is this it’s so funny because Mariah actually doesn’t have this but it’s this beautiful blend of sweet softness and true warrior. And what I love about Mariah is that right? It’s almost all warrior.

Traci Thomas 37:41
She’s an Aries through and through fire. Yeah, through her veins. She

Chelsea Devantez 37:45
you know, Princess dies, not cancer. Princess die as there were three people in my marriage. Yes. You know,

Traci Thomas 37:52
she’s she’s got a little more of the like Grace and like the understated Mariah Seamus.

Chelsea Devantez 37:57
Like, Oh, I’m so shit. Like, Marilyn I still shy Yeah. And Riaz like Leila.

Traci Thomas 38:04
She’s like, I’m here. But yeah, Mariah doesn’t have any of that. But I can I see how she like of course could would aspire to that. Yeah, it’s like it’s so different from her. Also, Tommy, the story of her going to get french fries with the right and him like, calling them like domains or p being like, I’m at the fucking house. Like where are you guys? The security guards are closing in on me. Yeah,

Chelsea Devantez 38:27
because he doesn’t want her to leave to even get fries and it was her big escape big thing. What what a wild wild story. And yeah, he you know, he’s just such a monster across so many platforms. Like he’s behind like several women’s breakdowns. Yeah. And it’s so compelling to realize that like, that’s so far in the history for her like, you know what I mean? Like she emerged around 30 Yeah, to get away from them and like I don’t I was still doing a lot of dumb shit at 30

Traci Thomas 38:56
Yeah, yeah, she definitely like has this I mean, obviously butterfly and rainbow those albums are like when she comes out of because the last one she does with Tommy is the one with always be my baby. Yeah, it’s her last album with him and then and obviously her early albums are great, but there’s like, she transforms right her whole like celebrity persona she becomes like this butterfly that’s when she starts wearing the like sequined gowns. That’s when she will first you get sexy. First she starts doing all the midriffs, right like the cover of the rainbow album when she’s basically naked splashed with the rainbow one of the best album covers ever.

Chelsea Devantez 39:37
And also a hugely whitewashed cover like she is I remember seeing that in the mall. She’s got this blonde hair and like everything’s just so brightly lit. Yeah, it was in Utah. Not really a land of a culture.

Traci Thomas 39:51
That’s out. Yeah, when that album, you were saying that on the album picture was taken. I was like, yeah, that’d be wild.

Chelsea Devantez 39:59
But yeah, I think like that album is how people are don’t know that she’s sure. And like Tommy did all of

Traci Thomas 40:05
that. Right. Right, right. Yeah. Because it was so weird because Tommy wanted her hair to be curly because he felt like the straight hair made her look blacker, which is so interesting. I know. Because I’m like, the curls are how, you know?

Chelsea Devantez 40:19
Except I think, no, no, I cuz I heard that too. I was like, that’s so wild. But it’s so funny that she was like, he wanted me to be like Italian. And like Nia Vardalos, and I was like, Oh, I guess that tracks and he thought the straightening of her hair. showed you how it really how unnatural it was to get there.

Traci Thomas 40:39
Yeah. And like, I guess, because like, you know, a lot of black women, you know, get their hair pressed. And so I think he was saying that it like looked like that. Like, it looks like I think she says like Faith Evans hair, I think is who she references. I was like, what he didn’t want her to be. Okay,

Chelsea Devantez 40:52
listen, he was he’s like, he’s the arbiter of women’s looks like he’s the one who’s telling 17 year old Jessica Simpson that she’s, like, you know, like, his judgment on women’s looks can go go right in the

Traci Thomas 41:01
trash, right? And like, Okay, so one of my critiques of this book is about Mariah Carey’s own accountability, about like, the things that she does, or the things that she’s a part of where she sort of like blames other people.

Chelsea Devantez 41:12
Wait, no, I’m sorry, you’re telling me accountability is a problem for a woman who opened her book like this? I refuse to acknowledge time, famously. So

Traci Thomas 41:22
ya know, for sure. Well, because like when I listen to your show, so I did not listen to your episode on Mariah Carey, because I didn’t want to be tainted. I’m gonna listen as soon as we get off this, but I one of the things I love about your show is like when you talk about, like, you know, how vulnerable did they get, like, all that stuff? You’re like, book deltas. And as I was reading this, I was sort of kind of thinking of those things. And this is in no way any sort of defensive Tommy matola at all because I think he’s a monster. But there were parts of the book where she would be like, and then Tommy did this like behind the scenes. And I’m like, Tommy do that. Or can we really blame Tommy for JLo? Like becoming famous? Like yes, but I don’t know if that’s really like he’s been making stars forever. Like that’s his job. Like you know, like there was like these little things where I’m like, yes, he’s a fucking despicable human and horrible and awful. But also like he is a music executive. So he does have to like find other talent besides you even when you guys break up you know, it’s like there was like these little and that’s like a very minor one and later it happens like with all the rehab stuff and the spa, and she’s like, I didn’t know I don’t like you didn’t you let everybody else make reservations for you to go to a spa like it’s just it’s lacking credulity I would say in some of these stories, in a way where I’m just like, just say you went to this rehab, like it’s okay. It’s okay. Or say why you let your brother do it and you didn’t fact check it at all like I don’t know I was just giving this like, I was so upset I couldn’t do anything. And like I wanted to go and finally I got to the spa that I wanted to get to after three stints in rehab I’m like I don’t know after the second one where they told me it was a spa and it wasn’t I think would have done I would have picked up that I would have said you know I’m gonna make this reservation. I know things are bad but I’m just gonna call the peninsula and see if they can see me and I can stay there

Chelsea Devantez 43:10
Yeah, yeah, I think it’s so yeah, as you’re seeing this I’m like oh yeah, you know, these are such good points and I also think I think her being called crazy has been one of the best weapons not only against her but against any pop stars and like the pop star breakdown trajectory of like Britney Spears and Amanda Bynes and Courtney Love and all these women who are like fucking crazy and I I do strongly feel for from her this need to be like, I was not crazy. Yeah, I was not there because I had this breakdown because it’s the thing that hurt her career the most and in that she I do I am with you that she like wrote around some of the times where she could be like, I’m not saying she did this but like, and then you know, I may have thrown a mirror onto the floor and shattered it like this is a woman who like was on a Stairmaster and six inch stilettos and took a bath on him TVs cribs, like her judgment is of grand proportions and some fuckin wild

Traci Thomas 44:12
you know, it’s all Yeah, it’s I just wish she owned some of it more because it would make it would have made the story richer. You know,

Chelsea Devantez 44:20
I completely agree. And I also think I think this also goes to her ghost writer, who very lovely, a very fantastic ghostwriter, but definitely over overly serious like Mariah Carey is a funny fucking one. Like she is funny, especially when she’s like off the cuff a little tipsy. Like you can catch the the I don’t know her that was just one of the funniest things I’ve ever seen greatest. This book’s pretty devoid of humor in the sense of like, I almost feel like her voice got taken out of this interesting. You know, where it’s like the best ghostwriter really makes you think like, like in Maria’s thank yous, she starts listing all the names of all her dogs. And when you hear an audiobook, you’re like, This is So I feel like there’s a lot of messy Mariah misses. And I agree,

Traci Thomas 45:06
I fully agree. And I think like one of the things that was interesting for me reading and especially the parts where she’s like in having her breakdown and going to rehab and the stuff with her mom and all of that stuff. I don’t remember any of that. I don’t remember the Carson Daly. So for whatever reason for I think maybe because I loved her so much as a kid. I think I just blocked it out. I think I didn’t care because I was always no matter what gonna love Mariah Carey. Like I just like her, you know? And like, I think I probably knew that it was like, I don’t care I don’t want to see her looking back just like I don’t want to see glitter because I don’t want to feel bad about her like I don’t I just don’t remember

Chelsea Devantez 45:40
it. Her family stuff was really not in the press for a really long time. And even when it when like stuff about her brother and her sister broke like it was always in like the New York Post. Like it wasn’t really mainstream. Like it was really the the ice cream cart quote unquote, breakdown, which like, have you rewind, I

Traci Thomas 45:54
didn’t rewatch it. Again,

Chelsea Devantez 45:55
it’s not a breakdown in in any way by any stretch of the imagination. Okay. It is miles away from a breakdown it is Mariah pulling a prank that in the book. She’s so just a little recap for your listeners who didn’t see it. Crazy dailies like okay, and up next. We’re and it’s ringing ringing. He’s like, what’s that? Oh, my God who’s coming on a set. Mariah Carey comes out and a little t shirt, pushing a car, an ice cream truck. And she’s like Carson, I came to give you ice cream. Carson is like, whoa, Mariah Carey is crashing the set. It’s like it’s clear. It’s clearly in the book. And I was like, this was fucking planned. You idiots like how would I get an ice cream cart? Like, come on? Yeah. And he was like, but he played it. So like, what are you doing here, Mariah. And she had a very manic energy about her where she was like, really trying to rile the crowd up really trying to get them to talk about glitter. And like Carson’s just being such a dick to her that she goes even further with it. And then she does this little t shirt reveal that she had planned and Carson’s like, she’s getting naked here, like, get out of here and like, and then everyone’s like, Oh, Mariah Carey is crazy. It’s really wild. But it also really tracks to my high school spirit of just the tiny little confines you were allowed to exist. And as a woman in the early riser, you were like a monster bitch, right?

Traci Thomas 47:11
And like, there was such an obsession with these women having breakdowns. It was like, Oh, we love you loved it. It was like so so so so so so important. Like, I mean, obviously, Britney Spears is was a little bit later, but like, it was the most important thing that ever happened. And

Chelsea Devantez 47:28
hers was also building in that era. And like all the people who were behind hers were like having a hand and I have to say my one of my favorite parts of this book is how 911 freed Mariah from rehab, because they were like, We gotta get her sing and hero. And so they’re like, get out of rehab, you got to come sing hero, and she breaks free from her

Traci Thomas 47:47
rehab anymore. But so you mentioned this last time that like 911, to purpose pipeline or whatever. Yeah, this is publishing today. But I write a column and someone asked about nonfiction tropes, which I never thought about, but I included and I gave you credit, I included that idea because it comes up so much in these books of like, the nine moment of like, I’m gonna marry Nicholas che or like, I’m gonna get out of rehab and go take back my life and sing hero on TV and like, I could do it. And I just think it’s like, and I’m sure you know, many, many, many examples because you read all these books, but like, I think, obviously, Prince Harry has it. He that’s his call to war. He’s ready.

Chelsea Devantez 48:27
Oh, yeah. I mean, Carrie Brownstein? Had it this is like that’s like the most recent book we covered. hunger makes me a modern girl. And like, it’s like, and then 911 happened. I realized I did want to be in the band like, yeah, and this is not a book, but Paul Bettany proposed to Jennifer Connelly having never dated her ever before in his life. Yeah, they’d like work together on a movie. And then 911 happened. He called her he’s like, actually really like you want to get married? She said, Yes. And they got married, and they’re still together. Yeah, and I’m not gonna say this is like a success story, but like it is it is the truth. And Shonda Rhimes was like, damn, I want to have kids and I’m not going to wait anymore. And she starts adopting her children after 911 years. Yeah, that’s why I said, What 911 Make you to

Traci Thomas 49:08
Tracy teen I will, I’ll tell I’ll tell you my 911 story. I’m terrible at math. Absolutely horrible. And, you know, I’m from California. So it happened really early in the morning. We all went to school, we didn’t know what’s going on. And first period, we had a math test. And I, you know, as they rabble rouser that I am, I said to my teacher, I don’t think we should have the math test today because something’s, you know, going on and he was like, It’s fine. It’s fine, like turn off the TV. So we had the math test. I got a D because I’m terrible at math. But then, a week later, when we got our test back, he gave us all a boosted grade because of the trauma of 911. So my thanks to me advocating for my rights as being traumatized and 16. I got a boosted grade. I think I got a C plus or something like really? That’s incredible. That’s fine. I love it. Sorry. How about you?

Chelsea Devantez 49:59
Um, Mine is that you know, we were also in school when it happened. Mine is that we got to go out to dinner that night so we could watch the news because we didn’t have I had to go to. Oh, wow. Yeah, no, we were in this like bar restaurant was a really small town. So there weren’t a lot of options. We were in this like bar restaurant that like had TVs on. We were like there to like, see what George Bush had to say. And I was like, hell yeah, night out Tuesday. But I also do remember, like, kind of this defining moment of, I’m gonna have this journal where I wrote in, like, war is bad and the bad man, like in a town full of Republicans, and I was like, No, I felt like

Traci Thomas 50:38
Yeah, I mean, it definitely had an impact on me. But that’s like, my 911 day was just like me, telling you,

Chelsea Devantez 50:43
I was excited to have a hamburger.

Traci Thomas 50:45
Um, did you listen to the audiobook at all of this one?

Chelsea Devantez 50:49
I did. And I actually have some of it, like, saved in my phone to play back in my ear when I’m having a very sad day. My guests on my podcast taught me that but there’s this part in the book where she lists like, it really is like, Don’t let anyone take it away. Don’t let anyone take it away. And she like starts listening. Like do not let these people come for your dream. And it’s serious, but it’s also funny. It’s also specific. And I have it like printed out and framed in my room. And I also have that and her dog thank yous reported to like, Listen, I love

Traci Thomas 51:21
this. I listen to audiobooks. I just, I mean, I looked at

Chelsea Devantez 51:25
Audible audio, but with so much music, her impression, she’s

Traci Thomas 51:28
what she’s like, this Manolo darling, I’m like, Mariah. I cannot the geek should giggles at certain point. Like, it’s just, it’s what an audio book should be like. Yes. If you’re, if you’re listening to this, and you’re a celebrity and you’re thinking about narrating your memoir, please bring yourself to the table. Give me some joy. Give me some you know, read it out. Give me something I just it was so much fun. The the physical book has the pictures which are so great, but I

Chelsea Devantez 51:55
Okay, you I think this is a book you need both.

Traci Thomas 51:57
I have. I have a call. I love the audio in the pictures. Did you notice anybody who’s not in the pictures? It’s actually Tommy Mottola and Nick Cannon. They do not show up. However, Derek Jeter is there, the towel the Latin Elvis guys, they’re all the boyfriends are there. But none of the times I thought that was –

Chelsea Devantez 52:22
My biggest and also her current partner who has definitely been with her for really a dancer

Traci Thomas 52:27
He’s brought up and I think his pictures in here. I think he’s like good history with her like holding her or something.

Chelsea Devantez 52:33
I will say my biggest critique of the book is and it happens a lot with memoirs, Carly Simon’s is a big one where there’s just so many moments really deeply impacting your life, that like, there’s just like a certain I know, I don’t think I’ve got pictures in here.

Traci Thomas 52:53
Maybe I just Googled him. You’re right. That’s your friend, Sean.

Chelsea Devantez 52:55
You’re right. I

Traci Thomas 52:56
I think I just googled that.

Chelsea Devantez 52:58
Yeah, she’s very, very protective of him. But we’re basically like, a certain portion of your life, emotionally shaped you so intensely that that’s the majority of the book, which I very much get. But then mccannon is all about a paragraph. And when I, when I first when I first read it, I was like, You know what, he’s the father to her kids. And this is like, incredibly respectful and wonderful. Upon further reflection. I’m like, is there an NDA in place? Because I mean, this is a bitter petty woman. And I say that I say that as a compliment. Yes. And Nick Cannon, I mean, she started him on the not her fault, but the child journey that he has now gone on, to repopulate the world with Nick Cannon children is like started here, and there’s just nothing in there about him.

Traci Thomas 53:41
Nothing. It’s, it’s an I literally was like, we was like, about, you know what, I got to like, 80% of the book. I was like, I wonder if this doesn’t take us up to Nick Cannon. Like, I wonder if she stops before it like because there’s just no, there’s no time for it.

Chelsea Devantez 53:55
And she made no time for I mean, there’s interviews of the both of them together, where she’s like, I don’t trust him. He’s a man, show me your phone. You know, it’s like, what’s up with that? No,

Traci Thomas 54:05
I would love some of that. I mean, there’s very little of her kid, but I think that’s like a protecting thing.

Chelsea Devantez 54:10
I think, yeah, I totally get that. But even just those years in that era of her life, like she doesn’t even tell us what else is up while she’s ready to Nick Cannon like they were

Traci Thomas 54:19
Sort of long time. Yes, like five years. Yeah. It’s interesting. Like, none of those albums really get any play in the book. It’s sort of like an her music stuff sort of ends after the emancipation of Mimi, as far as like, how much what she’s talking about musically. Also, if I want Yeah,

Chelsea Devantez 54:35
yeah. Yeah. So I that is definitely a critique for me. And also, I don’t, I don’t like the chapters where she’s like, No, I’m just gonna like lisman. And it’s not just because I not because of any, like, a feminist agenda, although I have many. It’s because I just like as a literary quality, like, like, so there’s sometimes books or like, you can just tell the what now yeah, what are some things? Yeah, let’s list some things at random and see They a paragraph it’s like just cut it cut like put them in the thing

Traci Thomas 55:02
that’s exactly right the strip my structural issues with the book aside from the fact that as you said, she starts with like time I don’t know what that is. The book gets disjointed sometimes like she’ll be talking about a thing and then go back and I’m like, wait, where the fuck are we like, when is this Who’s Who are you married to? Who are you dating? Like what’s happening? And so that’s frustrating but then the end of the book sort of just becomes these like little like vignettes which I like a book that’s written in vignettes like that, especially for celebrities, but not when the whole book leading up to it has been.

Chelsea Devantez 55:30
Yeah, it’s really, really Yeah.

Traci Thomas 55:33
Okay, all right. And then I went Whitney then I met a REIT that that I met de I’m like, okay, cool. Oh, she

Chelsea Devantez 55:38
throws mad shade at Celine Dion without naming her Oh, at the Divas live call the

Traci Thomas 55:42
one who tries to upstage Aretha or whatever. Yeah. It’s like

Chelsea Devantez 55:46
clearly I’m now having red sleeves book. She She this woman was raised by like a Santa Claus who she married. You and me. So she doesn’t have any sense about the world and she thought she and Aretha were supposed to riff.

Traci Thomas 55:58
Okay, we’re like, basically out of time. We’re overtime, but we’re gonna keep uh, do you have time to stay for a little bit longer? So every time we always do this on the podcast, the last time we talked about is the title and the cover. What do you think of the title? What do you think of the cover?

Chelsea Devantez 56:13
Horrible and horrible. I think I actually can’t believe I will say the picture by far is

Traci Thomas 56:19
a crime. It’s an insane outfit also.

Chelsea Devantez 56:22
Yes. And it’s it’s not a it’s not fashionable. It makes no sense that the angle it was shot at the you can tell she wants to show her tummy but she’s putting the sheer fabric over it, which I almost think is like photoshopped painted. Like, she was like, cover my tummy. And they’re like, oh, maybe fabric from the sleet. I don’t understand. The facial expression is ridiculous. It does give you insight and so where she’s at when publishing this book, because she looks at that picture and said I love it. Yeah.

Traci Thomas 56:49
She said this is the one not even like quintessential Mariah Carey look like I feel like you go with her like sexy tight. Like Jessica Rabbit. Look, you know? Yeah, it gives Yeah, Mariah give me a Christmas Mariah for Christ’s sake. Like, give me something.

Chelsea Devantez 57:05
Give me something. And also, you know, book covers. She’s famous for photoshopping things to shit. This is an incredible opportunity to do that. Like give me

Traci Thomas 57:13
like your dream. Dream lover. Morag give me throwback. Mariah in a field. Weird

Chelsea Devantez 57:18
blouse. It’s like an h&m blouse. Yeah, it was like, We got to be funky for a New Year’s Eve collection. Like,

Traci Thomas 57:25
that’s exactly right. And you know, there’s another cover that there’s like a I think, I don’t know if it’s a paperback. I know, people got it. If you took the book out from your library, the E copy the like Kindle version. It’s, it’s the picture of her if you’re gonna have the hardcover where she’s like, at the beach, and it’s like her as a child and like the side of her. That’s mine at the back. Yeah. The back that is the cover of the E version.

Chelsea Devantez 57:52
Hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think that would have been a better would have been

Traci Thomas 57:56
a better choice. And then the title itself is horrible. The meaning of Ryan Carrie. I’m just like, why just why not just call it Mariah?

Chelsea Devantez 58:04
Yeah, yeah. And also, I get I do this thing where it’s like, okay, let’s just open the book to a random page and see if you can find a better title like, okay, abandoned and alone without a penny to my name. Young and afraid no proper shoes on my feet one good dress. Like I’m just putting I’m on page 109 She’s like, some lyrics from one of our songs that I just pulled from well, that’s other

Traci Thomas 58:27
thing you have all these songs you could pull from? Oh my god. Yeah, we’re just like that.

Chelsea Devantez 58:30
That’s when book titles really crushed me when like, on every page, like there’s a better title, you know? Yeah. Then also, what was the title of her album that came out at the exact same time do you know I’m talking about

Traci Thomas 58:44
I mean, also she could have called it the emancipation of me which was a chapter title Oh, which would have been great.

Chelsea Devantez 58:49
That’s also great. The album is called rarities and like that would have been a beautiful title to like her she’s so good at title she’s so good at song layer Yeah, like this is definitely one of her specialties yeah rarities as as the album of songs you’ve never released but now can now that your life story is out there like oh my gosh, her bands which we didn’t even tell her like the best title of all time I literally had this printed and framed for my office. It’s she called her man someone’s ugly daughter in credit this

Traci Thomas 59:21
Okay, everybody This has been a great time talking about the meaning of Mariah Carey and spare I Comparative Literature class with Chelsea demandas celebrity book club podcast with Chelsea divan does which you should all be listening to if you’re not listening to Yeah, it’s a great time she does a full episode on spare so if that wasn’t enough, and you really want to dig into things please check it out. Chelsea has a book coming out which we will all obviously talk about when we get there but

Chelsea Devantez 59:45
and Traci is coming back on the podcast to do Jada and Will when it comes out.

Traci Thomas 59:48
Oh my god, I can’t wait unless something better comes before I don’t know. I know everything. Maybe I’ll just be a guest all the time. Happy to come whenever you want would be an honor. I got so many DMS being like are you doing spare with Chelsea I was like no I don’t want to talk about it.

Chelsea Devantez 1:00:02
I had put your name down for Jada. And then we booked Nikki and Nikki was was to do a different book at the last second switch and I was like, okay, but I will say like you presented some really great criticisms that aren’t present in the Spare episode.

Traci Thomas 1:00:15
I listen if we need to do Oh, and speaking of bonus episodes, everyone Chelsea she doesn’t know that yet. But Chelsea will be on this month’s bonus episode with a bunch of other guests from the pod talking about their favorite Mariah Carey songs and moments. So if you’re not a member of the Patreon go to patreon.com/the stacks to hear from Chelsea Hanif abdurraqib Brandon Kyle Goodman Vela Lavelle crea miles so many of your faves were will be there talking Mariah, so it’s a good reason to join the Patreon. Chelsea, thank you so much for being here.

Chelsea Devantez 1:00:45
Thank you so much for having me. I could talk to you all day about books. So thank you for giving me this hour.

Traci Thomas 1:00:50
And everyone else. We will see you in The Stacks.

Thank you all so much for listening. And thank you again to Chelsea Devantez for being my guest. All right, it is time to announce our February book club selection. It is the National Book Award winning novel from 2012. It’s called the Round House by Louise Erdrich. You have to make sure you listen to next week to find out who our guest will be for our February 22nd discussion of the Round House. If you love the show and you want instant access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks and join the stacks pack. Make sure you’re subscribed to the stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you’re listening through Apple podcasts, be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from the stacks. Follow us on social media at the stacks pod on Instagram and Apple stackspod underscore on Twitter and check out our website the stacks podcast.com This episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Lauren Tyree. Our graphic designer is Robin McCray. The Stacks is created and produced by me Traci Thomas.

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